I'm watching an African hunting DVD, and noticing that the PH, the hunter and the tracker are all carrying rifles on the shoulder, muzzle forward, without regard for where the rifle is pointed. This seems to be the rule not the exception in most African hunting videos that I have seen. Is this considered safe? What am I missing?

Phil

No matter how care full one is, during a safari, someone is going to be swept with a loaded rifle at one time or another.

One just have to make sure the safety is on, and not taken off until he is ready to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by PhilR:
PH, the hunter and the tracker are all carrying rifles on the shoulder, muzzle forward, without regard for where the rifle is pointed.

If there is truly no regard for where the muzzle is pointed, then shame on them. Consider it is hard to judge depth and dimension on TV, so, it may not be as bad as it appears.

Saeed is right, it's gonna happen. Minimizing the number of times and the way it happens is important.

I have only hunted with one ph where I was constantly looking down the muzzle of his gun. He wore it on a sling, pointed backward, almost parallel to the ground. It made me quite nervous following him through the jess since we were forced to go down the same narrow path. I was not happy about that.

Gun safety is one thing that is often pontificated on by many here and on other hunting/shooting websites. Everyone seems to have the formula for a perfect gun handling method, and I’m here to tell you another one for you to criticize!

The only way a gun is completely safe in disassembled and in the safe! If a human is handling it with ammo in the chamber or chambers it is dangerous, and as Saeed said above, someone will be swept a one time or another on a safari.

IOM the key is for the handler to be as vigilant as is possible as to where that firearm is pointed at all times. If using a bolt rifle, while hunting in open country, or where there is no dangerous game, it is best to have the chamber empty with the magazine full and a double rifle empty. If however you are in fairly thick cover where dangerous game is present, chamber/chambers loaded with safety ON, and muzzle watched very carefully.

The so-called PH carry is not as unsafe as one would think. #1 the muzzle or muzzles are in front of the carrier so he can see the muzzles, and what is in front of him as well. The carrying muzzle down, some prefer, is not safer than the PH carry, and the rifle on the shoulder muzzle pointed back is extremely UNSAFE because you have no idea what is happening behind you.

Lets look at the PH carry! With the right hand rifle on the right shoulder with the muzzle/muzzles end controlled by the right hand will naturally be pointed at about a 45 degree angle to the right. Not at the person in front of the carrier. When you need to turn to your left for any reason you lift the muzzle end of the rifle skyward. When you get close to the quarry or the bush gets really tight the rifle should be removed form the shoulder and carried port arms at the ready.

Even with all this there will be times when someone will be swept with a loaded rifle! It simply can’t be helped in miles long treks in various types of terrain! But the PH carry is no more unsafe that any other carry, and much safer than a lot of other carrying methods. In the final analysis, it is the HUMAN that is carrying the rifle that is dangerous, not the method of carry!
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I've heard of a fair number of A/Ds over the years & seen a few. I've also heard of several people getting shot in A/D incidents but I can't recall a single incident of either happening when the rifle was carried over the shoulder in the 'Africa carry'.

I'm not suggesting it's never happened or never will happen..... just that it's obviously not as dangerous as it might at first appear to some.

"Accidental Discharge" can be caused by one of two things.

A malfunction in the rifle, or carelessness from the one carrying it.

In all my life, I am 64 years old, and have been handling firearms from as long as I can remember, the only time I have ever had an AD was with a faulty Japanese made Weatherby 300 Weatherby Magnum.

Luckily, no one got hurt, because I always make sure the barrel is pointing in a safe direction when loading or unloading my rifle.

I heard a couple of them here in Montana, both fatal with unloading the rifle pointing it at another person.
One particular one, mother shooting and killing her son thru horse trailer. We all heard that one probably, it was Remington and she said it went off by itself. I think the lawsuit might still be going on against Remington.Thing was, she had it pointed horizontally against the horse trailer and her son was on the other side.
Point is, like all of you pointed out, unsafe practices in most cases are the AD's. Human error.
I had older gentleman one time pulling trigger next to me and his excuse was he didn't know which way was the safety. Holy balls, it scared me more then the actual discharge

I would hope that any PH worthy of the title would have a little talk with any client he saw displaying improper gun handling. In our pre-hunt talk I always bring up what my PH expects as far as when a shell will be in the chamber, when the rifle comes off safe, etc. and always watch the muzzle.
BTW I was hunting last fall with an inexperienced hunter. As we approached the truck I suggested he take the round out of the chamber. He claimed his finger was nowhere near the trigger but as he took it off safe the rifle fired. I have many more grey hairs but no other damage but it certainly got my attention.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
I would hope that any PH worthy of the title would have a little talk with any client he saw displaying improper gun handling. In our pre-hunt talk I always bring up what my PH expects as far as when a shell will be in the chamber, when the rifle comes off safe, etc. and always watch the muzzle.
BTW I was hunting last fall with an inexperienced hunter. As we approached the truck I suggested he take the round out of the chamber. He claimed his finger was nowhere near the trigger but as he took it off safe the rifle fired. I have many more grey hairs but no other damage but it certainly got my attention.

........and I'd bet my next retirement check that the rifle was a mod 700 Remington! I've personally seen that happen more than once with that model rifle!

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quote:

...
BTW I was hunting last fall with an inexperienced hunter. As we approached the truck I suggested he take the round out of the chamber. He claimed his finger was nowhere near the trigger but as he took it off safe the rifle fired. I have many more grey hairs but no other damage but it certainly got my attention.

That is one of the reasons I don't mind paying extra for a 3 position safety on all of the rifles I get built.

Better safe than sorry

quote:

Originally posted by tanks:

That is one of the reasons I don't mind paying extra for a 3 position safety on all of the rifles I get built.

Better safe than sorry

No rifle safety or any machine for that matter has 110% guaranteed reliability...... Not even a space shuttle which must be one of the finest machines ever built by man.

I had a Blaser R93 that after a considerable number of years of hard & perfectly reliable use decided to sometimes discharge when the bolt was closed by the operator...... The Blaser agent insisted it was impossible until I showed him (with an empty chamber) & then Blaser also told me it was impossible when it was returned to them........ But when it came back, everything had been renewed.

After that, I rather lost confidence in it.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:

BTW I was hunting last fall with an inexperienced hunter. As we approached the truck I suggested he take the round out of the chamber. He claimed his finger was nowhere near the trigger but as he took it off safe the rifle fired. I have many more grey hairs but no other damage but it certainly got my attention.

was it a Remington?

Steve,

Roger Whittal killed his tracker with exactly that same "African Carry".

Mark

In my experience it's an armed gov't. game scout that you have to really be concerned about. Muzzle discipline is a foreign concept to some of those guys. I was on a Buff hunt in Zim one time and the game scout had a military rifle (Fn/FAL I think) that had a carry handle on top. He carried in by the handle at arms length by his side. Every time I looked behind me the muzzle was pointing at my legs.

I mentioned it to the PH but he didn't do anything about it so I told the game scout to walk in front of me behind the PH. The PH didn't seem concerned.

Mark

I wasn't aware of that but would doubt the rate of accidents (if that's the right word) with the AC compared to other shooting accidents...... I'd guess it'd be no greater but that's only a guess.

Steve,

I guess what I should have added was the "Shit Happens" factor can pop up regardless of what we do or how cautious we are.

Mark

Mark

Ain't that the truth!

How 'bout when the PH sets the butt of the rifle on his shoe, then leans over the muzzle to look through field glasses while supporting the rifle with his elbows and the large opening at the loud end pointing at his chin.

Don't know about you, but I've seen a man shot in the head. I wore a badge at the time and from what I saw at the incident, even hardened deputies had to go outside for air.

The other thing I see constantly is a PH, or someone else, resting the butt of the gun on the ground with his hand covering the muzzle. I've seen this in multiple videos and on TV shows with some very well known PH's.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Steve,

Roger Whittal killed his tracker with exactly that same "African Carry".

Mark

Mark, we know how the rifle was carried, but do we know why the rifle fired?

I'm sure every time someone was hit by a A/D the rifle certainly had to be pointed at the victim when the rifle fired. There was also a person hurt by a BMG assault rifle that had a A/D when the bolt was closed at a firing range called Quail Creek near Denton, Texas and the person hit was 8 miles away in his home. I'd say the rifle was not pointed a that person but high, and person hit was just at the wrong place at the wrong time. That was mechanical A/D with the rife supposedly pointed in a safe direction.

Like Shakari says the PH carry is the most often method of carry in Africa, yet very few people are hurt or killed because of that method. Most are shot and/or killed from A/Ds with other methods of carry or accidently hit by trying to shoot an animal off someone.

I just don't see PH method being as dangerous as most seem to think. People are the problem, not the method!

Certainly any carry method is more dangerous if the carrier doesn't keep track of where his muzzle/muzzles are pointing at all times.

I have used the PH carry with double rifles for many years, as well as other methods, and have never had a A/D where the trigger/triggers were not pulled on purpose giving a double discharge from strumming the back trigger, but the rifle was pointed at what I wanted to shoot!

Like most I do not trust any safety enough to point a loaded firearm, or an unloaded fire for that matter, at anyone.

As Saeed said, there are only two reasons a firearm has an A/D and that is a careless handler, or a malfunctioning rifle. The NUT behind the rifle is where the danger lies!

Even though the PH carry is so often used in African I would say there would be ten times more people hurt with other methods of carry than the PH carry or hitting a person the shooter was not shooting at.

None of this , however, lessens the effect to the person accidently hit! But the PH carry is no more unsafe than any other carry, it is people who are unsafe!

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I prefer rifles that don't have a safety, don't trust what is a safety on most rifles. Those without a safety have a cocking mechanism, and if it is NOT cocked, it's impossible to fire because the firing pin spring is under no pressure. Sauer S303 also has one. But bottom line is you have to pay attention no matter what type rifle is used.

quote:

Originally posted by Dom:
I prefer rifles that don't have a safety, don't trust what is a safety on most rifles. Those without a safety have a cocking mechanism, and if it is NOT cocked, it's impossible to fire because the firing pin spring is under no pressure. Sauer S303 also has one. But bottom line is you have to pay attention no matter what type rifle is used.

Now you have gone and done it . . . this will bring all the Blaser and Krieghoff haters out of the wood work screaming.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Steve,

Roger Whittal killed his tracker with exactly that same "African Carry".

Mark

Mark, we know how the rifle was carried, but do we know why the rifle fired?



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Poor quality rifle. For memory a H&H

The instances that I have observed have been double rifles most of the time. It's not hard to imagine a scenario where the individual has left the safety off... brush, small branches, etc. might get into the trigger guard and fire the weapon.

Phil

A 465 H&H if I remember correctly. I hunted with a friend of the Whitals shortly after the incident and I asked why the PH was carrying the DR over his shoulder with the muzzles pointed rearward. That's how I heard the story of the trackers unfortunate demise. I must say I spent quite a bit of time on that safari making sure those double pipes were not pointed at me.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
A 465 H&H if I remember correctly. I hunted with a friend of the Whitals shortly after the incident and I asked why the PH was carrying the DR over his shoulder with the muzzles pointed rearward. That's how I heard the story of the trackers unfortunate demise. I must say I spent quite a bit of time on that safari making sure those double pipes were not pointed at me.

Mark

Mark,

If he was carrying the rifle with the muzzles pointing backwards, that isn't the Africa carry.

Or do I misunderstand you?

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
A 465 H&H if I remember correctly. I hunted with a friend of the Whitals shortly after the incident and I asked why the PH was carrying the DR over his shoulder with the muzzles pointed rearward. That's how I heard the story of the trackers unfortunate demise. I must say I spent quite a bit of time on that safari making sure those double pipes were not pointed at me.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

Mark,

If he was carrying the rifle with the muzzles pointing backwards, that isn't the Africa carry.

Or do I misunderstand you?

………………………………………….RIGHT! The PH carry is muzzle forward so the carrier can see where the muzzle/muzzles are pointing at all times!

Steve, I'm pretty sure Mark means his PH (Dudly) at the time was carrying his rifle that way.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
I would hope that any PH worthy of the title would have a little talk with any client he saw displaying improper gun handling. In our pre-hunt talk I always bring up what my PH expects as far as when a shell will be in the chamber, when the rifle comes off safe, etc. and always watch the muzzle.
BTW I was hunting last fall with an inexperienced hunter. As we approached the truck I suggested he take the round out of the chamber. He claimed his finger was nowhere near the trigger but as he took it off safe the rifle fired. I have many more grey hairs but no other damage but it certainly got my attention.

........and I'd bet my next retirement check that the rifle was a mod 700 Remington! I've personally seen that happen more than once with that model rifle!

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I had this exact type of A/D happen to a client two years ago, and it was a Remington Model 700. I was watching him when he took it off safe and there was no way he had his finger on the trigger. Shocked the crap out of both of us and fortunately he had the rifle pointed in a totally safe direction.

I know lots of guys like them, but probably 90 percent of the mechanical failures I have seen in the field have been something cratering on a Model 700.

Steve and Mac,

I obviously did not make myself clear. The PH was carrying his double with the muzzles pointed backward precisely because Roger had killed his tracker with the muzzles pointed forward. I assume he felt he had more control over the safety and trigger that way but he had little control over the muzzles.

Mark

Mac,

I don't see why the Mod 700 would be more likely to fire on closing the bolt than any other rifle. If the trigger is adjusted with inadequate sear engagement you run the risk of an AD regardless of the make or model. In fact the only gun I've seen fire on closing the bolt was a New Haven Model 70. Scared the shit out of me. A little tweak on the sear engagement and the rifle performed perfectly. And no I did not initially adjust the trigger.

Mark

I hunted with Roger in 1994. IIRC, Roger and tracker were in thick bush tracking a wounded lion. Spotted lion and Roger took safety off his H&H but lion moved. Tracker and Roger followed without putting rifle back on safe. A trigger snagged in bush and tracker was shot through femoral artery and bled out despite all efforts. Roger was carrying muzzles forward over shoulder but he and his hunters did abandon that carry following the accident.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Mac,

I don't see why the Mod 700 would be more likely to fire on closing the bolt than any other rifle. If the trigger is adjusted with inadequate sear engagement you run the risk of an AD regardless of the make or model. In fact the only gun I've seen fire on closing the bolt was a New Haven Model 70. Scared the shit out of me. A little tweak on the sear engagement and the rifle performed perfectly. And no I did not initially adjust the trigger.

Mark

Adjusting a Rem 700 trigger is non trivial. Norm Thompson, a great gunsmith, bless his soul he's passed on, adjusted my BDL in 270 to 2 1/4 lbs too many years ago. I've hunted with it for four decades, slid down a couple of talus slopes and hillsides accidentally with a round chambered and it on safe (which is how I hunt when I'm on my own). It has more than a few thousand rounds through it, sometimes that in a year. It's on it's third barrel. That being said every gun is different. Even when sliding down a hill my first thought was muzzle control, not which rock I was going to bounce off of next.

The most important safety is between your ears.

Before I was ever allowed out, even with an air rifle as a child, I was made to memorise the poem 'A Father’s Advice'. In case any of you are not familiar with it the opening lines are:

'If a sportsman true you’d be listen carefully to me. . .
Never, never let your gun pointed be at anyone. That it may unloaded be matters not the least to me'

As such the 'Africa carry' is totally alien to me; to carry a loaded firearm in such a way that it is permanently pointed at the person walking in front of you is very strange to me. Sure there is the 'when in Rome' factor but i would find it very uncomfortable indeed to carry a rifle in such a way.

During my years in the military, it was stressed that there is no such thing as an accidental discharge, only a negligent discharge, and having seen a fair number, this proved to be true.

quote:

Originally posted by gbax:
As such the 'Africa carry' is totally alien to me; to carry a loaded firearm in such a way that it is permanently pointed at the person walking in front of you is very strange to me. Sure there is the 'when in Rome' factor but i would find it very uncomfortable indeed to carry a rifle in such a way.

gbax, you would be right to be wary of carrying a firearm PERMANENTLY pointed at a person walking in front of you! However the PH carry doesn't point at the person walking in front of you, but is pointed naturally pointed at a 45 degree angle to the right or left depending on which shoulder it is carried on, and the hand controls where it is pointing, and is always in eyesight of the person carrying it!

This carry not only does not point at anyone in the line, but because the trigger, or triggers are behind the carrier's head protecting them from twigs, coming in contact with them. The rifle will not balance if held pointed straight forward, and will slip off the shoulder with just about every step.

Now, with the rifle carried over the shoulder pointed back there is no way the carrier can know where the muzzle is pointed.

I love the poem you mention, and it is true advice, but has only to do with pointing a loaded, or unloaded firearm at another person, and the PH carry doesn't point the rifle at anyone!


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Opinions vary! That is what makes a discussion worth participating in.

Ok Mac - I will amend my comment to permanently pointed in the general direction of the person in front of you !

I would also add that you only need to watch some of the hunting shows to see that fairly frequently the Africa carry results in weapons being pointed directly at the person in front, whether that be the PH at the tracker or the client at the PH.

I'm not saying its wrong and it it clearly the tried and tested method of carrying a rifle through bush in Africa. It is a striking culture shock for someone raised game shooting and deer stalking in the UK where it just wouldn't be tolerated.

Regards
Guy

quote:

Originally posted by gbax:
Before I was ever allowed out, even with an air rifle as a child, I was made to memorise the poem 'A Father’s Advice'. In case any of you are not familiar with it the opening lines are:

'If a sportsman true you’d be listen carefully to me. . .
Never, never let your gun pointed be at anyone. That it may unloaded be matters not the least to me'

As such the 'Africa carry' is totally alien to me; to carry a loaded firearm in such a way that it is permanently pointed at the person walking in front of you is very strange to me. Sure there is the 'when in Rome' factor but i would find it very uncomfortable indeed to carry a rifle in such a way.

Good advice and you and I will never have an accident but when that buffalo falls out the tree we will be disadvantaged.

quote:

Originally posted by Labman:
The other thing I see constantly is a PH, or someone else, resting the butt of the gun on the ground with his hand covering the muzzle. I've seen this in multiple videos and on TV shows with some very well known PH's.

Do you mean like this one on the home page of the ZIM Professional Hunters and Guides Assoc.
http://www.zphga.com/
I have emailed them a few times about the photo and the poor spelling "Ethics are Evrything" but nobody seems to care!

quote:

Originally posted by gbax:
Ok Mac - I will amend my comment to permanently pointed in the general direction of the person in front of you !

I would also add that you only need to watch some of the hunting shows to see that fairly frequently the Africa carry results in weapons being pointed directly at the person in front, whether that be the PH at the tracker or the client at the PH.

I'm not saying its wrong and it it clearly the tried and tested method of carrying a rifle through bush in Africa. It is a striking culture shock for someone raised game shooting and deer stalking in the UK where it just wouldn't be tolerated.

Regards
Guy

When carrying your rifle using the African carry and the rifle is over your right shoulder the muzzles are naturally pointing to the right, the left when the rifle is on the left. It is very easy to move the muzzles to the right or left or down when required to not sweep anyone ahead, or if the party is rounding a turn, to move the rifle to the opposite side by tilting the muzzles to the ground and switching shoulders.

Fatigue toward the end of the day can cause inattention, which is the enemy of safe handling no matter the style of carry. I have looked down many more barrels here in the US when the other hunter was using a sling and the rifle barrel began tilting back then I ever have in Africa.

BTW, one of the PH's I have hunted with told me he evaluates every client hunter's gun handling at the truck and through the required "check the zero" range shooting, and then has his number 2 tracker follow and watch the client for the first day to make sure the gun handling is sound. I learned this when after the first day he complimented me on my gun handling. Since other than at the range he was in front of me the entire time I asked how he knew, and he responded that Oriah, his N0 2 tracker, was charged with watching me and counting the times I swept a member of the party. The number was 0, which he said was rare.

JPK