If someone is careless enough to allow his rifle to point at someone else in the hunting party, he would probably do it what ever way he carries it. Bad gun handling skills are bad for any carry method.

465H&H

Anyone who thinks the "African carry" is unsafe has never done it. If you can't control your muzzle when it is 15 inches in front of your nose you should not be allowed to handle firearms.

African carry is no safer than any other method of carry if the individual allows the muzzle to be pointed at another person, which is commonly done in many of the African hunting shows/ videos/ dvds that I have watched. Yes, one can point the muzzle off to the side to avoid the person directly in front...however, that is a conscious decision that is not always the norm. It seems that resting the hand/ arm on the muzzle with the butt on the ground is also commonly done with loaded rifles. Given the experience of most dangerous game PHs, they are far less of a threat to the client than the client is to them, I'm sure.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Poor quality rifle. For memory a H&H

..................

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Mac,

I don't see why the Mod 700 would be more likely to fire on closing the bolt than any other rifle. If the trigger is adjusted with inadequate sear engagement you run the risk of an AD regardless of the make or model. In fact the only gun I've seen fire on closing the bolt was a New Haven Model 70. Scared the shit out of me. A little tweak on the sear engagement and the rifle performed perfectly. And no I did not initially adjust the trigger.

Mark

***Mark: The reason the 700 has had many 1000s of them firing without people pulling the trigger is because the old style that was just changed a few years ago has the Walker fire control trigger mechanism in it. Back when Mike Walker first designed it in the 40s as an engineer for Remington and they started manufacturing it, there were some problems with it firing without touching the trigger. This either happened when the safety was taken off or when the bolt was barely touched to unload it with the safety off, since it was only a two position type. Walker himself asked the top brass to let him tweak the design to eliminate the problem and it would have only cost 5 cents a gun and they said no. They have chosen all along to risk lawsuits and settle out of court, rather than to do the massive recall that would probably bankrupt the company with the number that is out there. That amounts to many millions and no matter how many rounds have been through them or whether thay have ever been adjusted for sear engagement or not, they can go off just as was mentioned by another member or two in this thread. That is why when people say they have one with thousands of rounds through them that they are still not safe unless they have had an aftermarket trigger installed. I believe there is still a class action lawsuit pending in a Federal Court somewhere asking that the company be forced to recall all the old rifles to have them fixed because no Federal Agency, including even the ATF, has any control or jurisdiction over safety features or lack of them on a firearm. That suit as I recall is being lead by Mr. Barber, whose wife shot through that trailer and killed their son when she was unloading it and swears under oath like many others that she never touched the trigger when it fired. IMHO it's really amazing that 20+ people have died from those types of firing, rather than hundreds or more the way many people mishandle a firearm routinely!

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:

quote:

Originally posted by Labman:
The other thing I see constantly is a PH, or someone else, resting the butt of the gun on the ground with his hand covering the muzzle. I've seen this in multiple videos and on TV shows with some very well known PH's.

Do you mean like this one on the home page of the ZIM Professional Hunters and Guides Assoc.
http://www.zphga.com/
I have emailed them a few times about the photo and the poor spelling "Ethics are Evrything" but nobody seems to care!

You mean this one?



This is an example of what I was trying to get across. It is people not the method of carry that is the problem. Any carry method is safe if done properly!

If my 22 yr old niece can carry a rifle safely while hunting buff --anybody should be able to.


See Caroline Kleine on Ivan Carters The Dark and Dangerous.

Its really not rocket science.

quote:

Originally posted by Topgun 30-06:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Mac,

I don't see why the Mod 700 would be more likely to fire on closing the bolt than any other rifle. If the trigger is adjusted with inadequate sear engagement you run the risk of an AD regardless of the make or model. In fact the only gun I've seen fire on closing the bolt was a New Haven Model 70. Scared the shit out of me. A little tweak on the sear engagement and the rifle performed perfectly. And no I did not initially adjust the trigger.

Mark

***Mark: The reason the 700 has had many 1000s of them firing without people pulling the trigger is because the old style that was just changed a few years ago has the Walker fire control trigger mechanism in it. Back when Mike Walker first designed it in the 40s as an engineer for Remington and they started manufacturing it, there were some problems with it firing without touching the trigger. This either happened when the safety was taken off or when the bolt was barely touched to unload it with the safety off, since it was only a two position type. Walker himself asked the top brass to let him tweak the design to eliminate the problem and it would have only cost 5 cents a gun and they said no. They have chosen all along to risk lawsuits and settle out of court, rather than to do the massive recall that would probably bankrupt the company with the number that is out there. That amounts to many millions and no matter how many rounds have been through them or whether thay have ever been adjusted for sear engagement or not, they can go off just as was mentioned by another member or two in this thread. That is why when people say they have one with thousands of rounds through them that they are still not safe unless they have had an aftermarket trigger installed. I believe there is still a class action lawsuit pending in a Federal Court somewhere asking that the company be forced to recall all the old rifles to have them fixed because no Federal Agency, including even the ATF, has any control or jurisdiction over safety features or lack of them on a firearm. That suit as I recall is being lead by Mr. Barber, whose wife shot through that trailer and killed their son when she was unloading it and swears under oath like many others that she never touched the trigger when it fired. IMHO it's really amazing that 20+ people have died from those types of firing, rather than hundreds or more the way many people mishandle a firearm routinely!

Thank you sir! That post is what has been needed for years here, and should be made a sticky on all the firearm forums here on AR!

I will replace the trigger group on my 700,7MM Rem Mag, and then give it to my grandson who has admired it several times, and I refused to let him shoot it because of the history of the model. I also have a 788 that may or may not have the same trigger system. That will be replaced as well!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by JCS271:

quote:

Originally posted by Labman:
The other thing I see constantly is a PH, or someone else, resting the butt of the gun on the ground with his hand covering the muzzle. I've seen this in multiple videos and on TV shows with some very well known PH's.

Do you mean like this one on the home page of the ZIM Professional Hunters and Guides Assoc.
http://www.zphga.com/
I have emailed them a few times about the photo and the poor spelling "Ethics are Evrything" but nobody seems to care!

You mean this one?



This is an example of what I was trying to get across. It is people not the method of carry that is toe problem. Any carry method is safe if done properly!

I'm guessing the man on the right has been married far too long. He obviously has his rifle pointing at something he feels is unnecessary ...

I don’t think the African carry was developed with safety in mind or even as a method of carry for modern hunting where the PH and hunters carry their own weapons.
I would be pretty sure that the African carry has it’s roots from the days of the earlier hunters in using heavy weapons and using a native gun-bearer to walk in front with the gun in the African carry position. The hunter walking behind just had to reach out and take the gun from the bearer and was in a position to shoot quickly. Taylor and others have alluded to this in their writings noting that when on a day long hunt the average white man would be too tired to effectively use his heavy weapons if he carried them himself.
I have not seen this carry used elsewhere, probably stemming from the fact that in most other countries gun bearers were not used or cheaply available and the weapons were of a smaller and lighter nature suitable for the game in those countries so could be easily carried by the hunter.
Obviously slings where developed from very early times and are used extensively throughout the World in both open country and the thickest jungle imaginable.
It has been well proven that the danger times for an AD when handling firearms is not in the carry but when the safety is being taken off, when the firearm is being loaded or unloaded and especially when the hunter is in, what we here call, a state of semi-readiness i.e. game is spotted and the hunter is getting in position for a shot or game is expected to show any minute and the hunter is tensed up ready to go.
If I was a PH in Africa in front of the hunter, the metallic click or chink of a firearm behind me would send shivers up my spine. As to trips and falls with whatever method is used to carry, I would just hope that the weapon has a damn good safety and that it is ON

I have physically, but very carefully, taken my PH's rifle away from him when he rested it like that.

Some things are too awful and would hurt too much even to contemplate.

quote:

Originally posted by PhilR:
African carry is no safer than any other method of carry if the individual allows the muzzle to be pointed at another person, which is commonly done in many of the African hunting shows/ videos/ dvds that I have watched. Yes, one can point the muzzle off to the side to avoid the person directly in front...however, that is a conscious decision that is not always the norm. It seems that resting the hand/ arm on the muzzle with the butt on the ground is also commonly done with loaded rifles. Given the experience of most dangerous game PHs, they are far less of a threat to the client than the client is to them, I'm sure.

This is inaccurate. The gun rests on your shoulder, inside of the ball joint. You arm and hand are below the ball joint. Since your hand holds the muzzle, the rifle is already pointing to the side naturally. Holding the barrels pointing straight out - as would be required to "sweep" the PH in front of you while walking straight - is what takes conscious effort, as does steering them harder to the side or sharply downward as required to avoid sweeping the lead tracker or PH when the party turns as it walks through the bush.

Moreover, at least for me and the PH's I have walked miles and miles behind tracking elephants, it is a heck of a lot more comfortable to carry the rifle with the barrels (I most often carry a double rifle in this manner) pointed well to the side, to the extent that the butt extends past my ear on the other side.

Unless the camera is directly behind the hunter using an African carry I don't think you can accurately judge the outward angle of the barrels.

I think PH's are less of a threat to the client than vice versa because the PH walks in front of the client and is less likely to fall because they are typically younger and fitter and more accustom to the terrain.

One reason to carry a very good double rifle is because it will have primary sears as well as secondary sears, also called intercepting sears, which prevent a barrel from discharging without that trigger being pulled. In addition, some will have a bolted safety, which is a safety for the safety and prevents the safety from being accidently rubbed or flicked to "fire." My favorite elephant rifle has a bolted safety, and unless we're near elephants the bolt is engaged. With a little practice it takes very little time to disengage the bolt, which is a simple lever.

Here are a couple of photos of the bolted safety on my rifle:



Sorry for the crappy photos, they were taken for insurance purposes.

And of course Kreighoff's have cocking devices rather than safeties and are completely unable to fire unless that "slide" is moved forward, which takes some effort.

In my experience, what terrifies a PH, and me too, is hearing the AK carried by the game scout behind you chambering a round when you have come across an ele. Many game scouts are scared of eles, knowing that plus hearing the AK chambering a round makes even the orneriest of elephants the lesser danger.

JPK

Back when I was 15, three of us were in an old 1950 Ford p/up chasing coyotes across the prairie. (this was common in those days) The guy on the R had his '06 muzzle up. We hit a bump and it went off between our heads and blew out the back window.
Both of us had powder burns on our faces from it. I don't know about the other guy as I never saw him again. But, my ears have been ringing very loudly since. I just turned 70 the end of Jan. That's a damned long time to suffer from some assholes carelessness, and yes, we were both lucky it missed.

Since then I've made many a person mad by one rule I have: "muzzle down or get out and walk!!"

I feel we can live without a foot, but, play hell without a head.

The only AD I've ever had was with a hammer type shotgun when the ducks were coming in. Thumb slipped off the hammer spur and buried into the cuticle of my thumb. Damn that hurt! But the muzzle was up as I was getting ready to shoot.

George

There seems to be no mention of muzzle up, as with right or left shoulder arms. It is simple to drop to port arms from there to move through a wooded area. The manipulation to the firing position is easier than from the PH method. Access to the safety and bolt handle are also quicker and easier. Pointed toward the ground is equally safe but fatigue is greater than letting the shoulder bear the weight.

quote:

Originally posted by armorer:
There seems to be no mention of muzzle up, as with right or left shoulder arms. It is simple to drop to port arms from there to move through a wooded area. The manipulation to the firing position is easier than from the PH method. Access to the safety and bolt handle are also quicker and easier. Pointed toward the ground is equally safe but fatigue is greater than letting the shoulder bear the weight.

When you are on tracks or walking through the bush for six or seven hours a day, days on end, you end up using every carry, including left and right shoulder arms, but the African carry really is the most comfortable and easiest and that is the carry one ends up using the majority of the time.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
And of course Kreighoff's have cocking devices rather than safeties and are completely unable to fire unless that "slide" is moved forward, which takes some effort.

The above is undoubtedly the safest double rifle on the market today! It is safe for others in the hunting party, as well as for the owner in another way.

Some think the Blaser S-2 has the same safety system, but it doesn’t. Both are safe to carry fully loaded with the “COMBI-COCKING” device set to relieve the tumbler springs so there is no way the rifle can be fired without re-engaging the springs, which, as JPK says takes some effort. This protects others in the hunting party.

The difference between the K-rifle, and the Blaser S-2 is, the blaser automatically de-cocks the rifle if opened for any reason, and has no facility to automatically re-cock the springs after opening the action. This seems to some to be even safer than the K-rifle, however with the Blaser if your first two shots do not stop a dangerous animal, and the rifle is opened for a quick re-load, the rifle doesn’t RE-COCK the action, and if you forget to exert the considerable effort to manually re-cock the rifle you may be in deep sh*t with a rifle that will not fire!

The Krieghoff on the other hand once loaded the COMBI-COCKING lever (safety button) is pushed forward slightly and released, this relieves the springs that drive the tumblers, and the rifle is as safe as if un-loaded. When one is ready to shoot, the lever is pushed forward to cock the rifle. With the K-rifle, once cocked if the rifle is opened but not fired it remains cocked, and if fired and opened for a re-load, the rifle automatically RE-COCKS on opening the rifle so it is ready to fire as soon as the re-load is accomplished and the rifle closed.

Gentlemen, there is a reason almost all double rifle makers will only build a double, rifle that is to be used for hunting dangerous game, with a manual safety, unless the customer requests an AUTO-SAFETY. In the excitement of a life or death charge where the first two rounds have not stopped the charge, and a reloading one or both barrels is required it is easy to forget that the rifle has applied the auto-safety. ……….

A safety is there to protect others as well as the handler, but is only effective if it works, and the person carrying the rifle knows where his rifle is pointing at all times.

With that in mind the K-Rifle is the only double rifle that can be trusted to be completely safe when loaded, and the springs relieved, but watching where muzzles are pointing is a must regardless.

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