Anyone else seen Flack's article on the new Rowland Ward record Nyala? It was reprinted by permission and sent out by African Indala.
Quite thought provoking!
sorry if I missed an earlier discussion.

I do not believe this has been discussed, but Jason Stone of Stone Hunting Safaris has been in the past, including for the 50in/100K buffalo advertised on AR, and most recently (July) he was mauled by a lion in Zambia while accompanying his hunter and a Zambian PH.

Here is a link to the article:

http://www.africanindaba.co.za/Newsletter/20.htm

Yes, to be sure, this was an impressive animal - a 33 3/8 inch nyala bull - but I hesitate calling it a 'trophy'. Consider the remarks attributed by Flack (in his brilliantly acerbic article) to the owner of the game reserve where the animal was taken:

"(The owner) explained that, although the primary business of the farm, was breeding Arabian horses, he kept a 130 hectare enclosure stocked with nyala, impala, springbok, steenbuck, duiker and two giraffes. He was not sure how many nyala he had as the vegetation was very bushy and thick but he estimated that they might number some 50 to 60 in total. He said that he had known about the big bull since it was youngster and added that it was very tame – you could “nearly catch it by hand” he said - and, particularly after cold weather, when he fed the game pellets and lucerne."

When his hand-fed pet became the subject of attacks by lesser bulls, he decided that it was the right time to reduce his inventory and sell off the nyala for R50,000 (about US$7,000) rather than put it up for adoption with a petting zoo.


Dr. van Dyk's Prize Pet Nyala

"(He then) sent his estimate of the nyala’s vital statistics to the Professional Hunting Association of South Africa (PHASA). After that, numerous people contacted him but all wanted to be absolutely sure of the bull’s horn measurements before making a commitment. Some people were prepared to pay the price provided they could dart the bull and check the measurements first but Dr. van Dyk was not prepared to countenance this.

Eventually someone was found who would pony up the money to kill the nyala without a notarized guarantee of the nyala's measurements.

"Mr Jason Stone, who is not a member of PHASA, duly arrived with a young German hunter, Mr Alexander Sachs who, within about an hour of setting off, at a distance of about 25 metres, managed to place an arrow in front of the left hip of the nyala, which traversed the bull’s body and exited in front of the right foreleg as the animal walked obliquely away from him."

So, on that day, on a horse farm near Klerksdorp, Mr. Stone's professional hunting skills coupled with Herr Sachs's hunting prowess displaced Professional Hunter Paul Phelan's 32 7/8 inch nyala, taken from the wilds of KwaZulu-Natal, which had held the world record for over 28 years.


The Proud New World Record Holder

Now I'm sure there are those that will argue that this is hunting, but not me - at least no more so than shooting pigeons released from a tower is hunting or pulling a trout out of an aquarium is fishing. My personal prejudices aside, my question to the group is this: At what point should farm raised big game animals be excluded from the record books compiled by Rowland Ward and SCI?

Clearly their respective records would be skewed if someday mad-scientist type game managers were to effectively pen-raise buffalo or kudu or nyala or what-have-you, employing state-of-the-art vitamins and feed and growth hormones, with the express purpose of creating monster record breakers. Is anyone comfortable with having such a Franken-game subsequently released into a 'corral' of 130 hectares and allowing the highest bidder to execute said creature and grabbing a world record - displacing a free-range, fair chase animal from that honor?

Personally, I'm not a record book kind of hunter; but I respect those that are. And I believe that this type of hunting places legitimate records pursuit in peril - and puts legitimate fair-chase hunters in a bad light.

It's one thing to have someone like Bwana Moja spend months training, weeks strategizing, days pursuing over the toughest terrain, and then at the right second make a hugely difficult shot to get his record mountain nyala. It's a whole other ballgame when someone pulls into a parking lot, grabs a soft drink, strolls an hour into farmland, and at 80-feet kills a record nyala that was probably approaching the hunter for a kibble.

quote:

Personally, I'm not a record book kind of hunter; but I respect those that are. And I believe that this type of hunting places legitimate records pursuit in peril - and puts legitimate fair-chase hunters in a bad light.

It's one thing to have someone like Bwana Moja spend months training, weeks strategizing, days pursuing over the toughest terrain, and then at the right second make a hugely difficult shot to get his record mountain nyala. It's a whole other ballgame when someone pulls into a parking lot, grabs a soft drink, strolls an hour into farmland, and at 80-feet kills a record nyala that was probably approaching the hunter for a kibble.

Absolutely correct Kim.

That is what I have been saying all along.

I have absolutely nothing against anyone wanting to shoot someone's pets animal.

But, don't enter it in a record book and claim it was hunted.

I find this kind of thing repugnant.

Just as I do the killing of immature animals, for the sake of inches, and entries into books, and for the attendant "bragging rights."

"Hey ma, look what I shot," said the attention starved [fill in the blank].

I am a live and let live kind of guy.

But this sort of thing makes me feel that, in our brave new world, the damned record books should be closed to further entries.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Absolutely correct Kim.

That is what I have been saying all along.

I have absolutely nothing against anyone wanting to shoot someone's pets animal.

But, don't enter it in a record book and claim it was hunted.

I completely agree with this, Saeed, but I have to ask one thing in potential defense of this particular record system. Bear in mind that I am just learning how these records are determined and the systems work, but doesn't Rowland Ward take any animal specimen, even sheds or scavenged skulls for their record book? Does the book itself identify the animal as hunted vs. picked up? I only know what I've read on their site and have not seen the actual printed book in person. The lines below reflect my reference:

"It celebrates the animal and it does not matter whether the animal’s horns, tusks or teeth were picked up in the veld from one that had died of natural causes, was killed by a predator or was shot by a hunter."

I believe RW record pick ups as such.

However, that of course relies of the person who submits the trophy admitting it was a pick up. There's also the issue of what to do if someone buys a trophy at something like a country house auction and then submits it as a trophy.

Don't think those kinds of thing don't happen. They might not happen often but they do happen.

I've even had someone try to submit a large cat skull claiming it as an African leopard trophy when in fact, it was identified by the Natural History Museum in London as a tigress skull from India.

quote:

Originally posted by Luis L.:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Absolutely correct Kim.

That is what I have been saying all along.

I have absolutely nothing against anyone wanting to shoot someone's pets animal.

But, don't enter it in a record book and claim it was hunted.

I completely agree with this, Saeed, but I have to ask one thing in potential defense of this particular record system. Bear in mind that I am just learning how these records are determined and the systems work, but doesn't Rowland Ward take any animal specimen, even sheds or scavenged skulls for their record book? Does the book itself identify the animal as hunted vs. picked up? I only know what I've read on their site and have not seen the actual printed book in person. The lines below reflect my reference:

"It celebrates the animal and it does not matter whether the animal’s horns, tusks or teeth were picked up in the veld from one that had died of natural causes, was killed by a predator or was shot by a hunter."

Luis:

Whenever a trophy was honestly submitted to RW as a "pick up" it was duly entered in the book as such.
One cannot know for certain how many of the other claimed records have all been honestly taken but in all fairness I would think the majority are good.

I think SCI system of grading trophies and trophy hunters has a lot to do with some shady submissions.

Especially the so called "Inner Circles".

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I think SCI system of grading trophies and trophy hunters has a lot to do with some shady submissions.

Especially the so called "Inner Circles".

How very true, especially when the 'Diamond Award' is on the line

quote:

I find this kind of thing repugnant.

Just as I do the killing of immature animals, for the sake of inches, and entries into books, and for the attendant "bragging rights."

"Hey ma, look what I shot," said the attention starved [fill in the blank].


I am a live and let live kind of guy.

But this sort of thing makes me feel that, in our brave new world, the damned record books should be closed to further entries.

Mike

Is your name in a record book anywhere? Have you ever entered a local deer contest? Have you ever had a friendly wager between you and a hunting buddy about trophy size?

I agree that whacking critters in holding pens disposes of the pleasure gained from "playing the game", but maybe you are missing out on some of the fringe benefits of a hunting life. By your logic meat poaching in africa may be so "repugnant" and gives hunting a bad name, that you refuse to eat your wild game.

Ben

I don't have a problem at all with someone having a healthy interest in the record books. Most of us like an especially large trophy and as long as it's viewed as a bit of fun and not the end of the world if an animal is smaller than hoped for, that's fine.

However, I DO have a problem when someone has an unhealthy interest in the record books and (for example) literally sulks like a spoiled child, sometimes for days, because the trophy is an inch smaller (or sometimes less) than hoped or starts measuring a trophy before the animal has expired or buys trophies at auction and then submits them as their own.

And I've occasionally seen all those things over the years.

I also don't have a whole lot of time for those who 'hunt' with their cheque book only and pay huge sums to shoot a tame animal in a pen..... if you're gonna hunt an animal, it should be hunted properly and if it's not, then (IMO) it's not a hunt and has no place in the record books.

quote:

By your logic meat poaching in africa may be so "repugnant" and gives hunting a bad name, that you refuse to eat your wild game.

I think there is a bit of a difference between meat poaching and some guy who killed a tame animal then sits behind it grinning like an idiot pretending that he's a hunter.

It may be just me but I can't see the joy in killing something just to get your name in a record book. Is it the hunt these people relish or the ego stoking they get by getting their name in the book? I hunt because I enjoy it not to show off to my peers.

Bakes,

I am not defending the dumbass whacking chattle in pens. I was defending the competitive nature that develops between fellow hunters and sometimes manifests itself in record books. Make a list of positive apsects of hunting and you can find abuses and instances where those aspects went too far. That does not mean that these personal benefits that we get from hunting are bad because someone else abuses them. Hence, we like eating wild game from what we hunt, but meat poachers abuse that aspect. So now we must all give up eating game because some punks abuse ecosystems so they can eat? By Mr. Robinson's standards we should give up a little friendly competition because a slew of idiots are smoking pets and entering them in the record books. Those record books have done a pile of good for our sport, and yes they can get abused, but don't throw them out.

Ben

quote:

Originally posted by smarterthanu:
By Mr. Robinson's standards we should give up a little friendly competition because a slew of idiots are smoking pets and entering them in the record books. Those record books have done a pile of good for our sport, and yes they can get abused, but don't throw them out.

Ben

Ben,

firstly, Mr Robinson was my late Father not me. Steve is just fine.

Secondly, you might like to re-read my post.

What I actually said was "I don't have a problem at all with someone having a healthy interest in the record books. Most of us like an especially large trophy and as long as it's viewed as a bit of fun and not the end of the world if an animal is smaller than hoped for, that's fine.

However, I DO have a problem when someone has an unhealthy interest in the record books and (for example) literally sulks like a spoiled child, sometimes for days, because the trophy is an inch smaller (or sometimes less) than hoped or starts measuring a trophy before the animal has expired or buys trophies at auction and then submits them as their own"

When your reason for hunting moves beyond personal enjoyment/thrill of the chase etc and becomes a quest for inches then something has gone wrong. And as Steve said, if you sulk because your trophy is 1 inch to short to make the book then you need to take a long hard look at yourself. If you want the animal darted and measured before you turn up to "hunt" it then you need to give yourself an uppercut And where does it stop. Will there be lazer measuring of trophy's to get to the closest 100th of a millimeter? Now if there were no record books would trophy hunting stop? I don't think so but perhaps canned hunting would diminish some what..maybe?

I go hunting with a mate of mine who is a mad pig hunter. He hunts every weekend and he has also killed a number of very large water buff. Not only has he never measured any horns/tusks but I've never felt the need to compete against him. I just enjoy his company and the fact we are out hunting. Sorry mate but I just don't get the whole need to compete thing.

We all have our own reasons for hunting and my own are well described by Sher Jung in his book 'Tryst With Tigers' where he said:

"The jungle is the place to test one’s mettle and one’s skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it’s own choosing and to outwit it in it’s own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it".

I appreciate I've posted that quote before and my apologies for posting it again but for me at least, it's just sooo perfect.

That said, I don't criticise anyone for having an interest in the record books but I do prefer it to be a healthy interest.

quote:

Ben,

firstly, Mr Robinson was my late Father not me. Steve is just fine.

Shakari,

I was disputing what was posted by the member "Michael Robinson". I read your posts. I am pretty much in agreement with you. Sorry for the confusion.

Ben

OK. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Livestock. Nothing more, nothing less.

Looks like the Texas religion of pen raising game for the highest bidder has gone international.

Sad day for hunting if you ask me. Sure gives a lot of fuel for the anti-hunter's to use against us.

quote:

Looks like the Texas religion of pen raising game for the highest bidder has gone international.

you are a closed minded idiot. I guess there are no high fence places in Colorado? Would you like to inform us where the very first high fence on a game ranch was ever erected? typical Colorado trash looking down their ignorant nose at others, a true bigot.

quote:

Originally posted by 505 gibbs:

quote:

Looks like the Texas religion of pen raising game for the highest bidder has gone international.

you are a closed minded idiot. I guess there are no high fence places in Colorado? Would you like to inform us where the very first high fence on a game ranch was ever erected? typical Colorado trash looking down their ignorant nose at others, a true bigot.

And you're a fool. Texas beyond a doubt leads the world in so called exotic pen raised wildlife which is sold as trophies. Hell, they even have their own organization dedicated specifically to exotic game. They even do it for the native whitetail deer, with regimented feeding, hormones, selective breeding. Man made manipulated trophy hunting is a Texas institute and it is sad to see that type of stuff being done on an international scale.

All of this is a detriment to the sport of hunting. Do you honestly believe that anti hunters do not look for info such as this to use against us? Look over the article, this thing was tame, it wasn't a game animal.

Do you really condone this sort of thing? Doesn't matter where it occurs, it is bad.

And, for the record, yes there are a few "high fence" operations in Colorado. But, they are all grandfathered in and there are no new operations allowed. We're in the process of eliminating that type of thing in Colorado. How many new ones will you allow to open in Texas this year?

I really can't understand why someone would put that on the wall......

i'd be embarrased to even be in the picture....

quote:

And you're a fool. Texas beyond a doubt leads the world in so called exotic pen raised wildlife which is sold as trophies. Hell, they even have their own organization dedicated specifically to exotic game. They even do it for the native whitetail deer, with regimented feeding, hormones, selective breeding. Man made manipulated trophy hunting is a Texas institute and it is sad to see that type of stuff being done on an international scale.

All of this is a detriment to the sport of hunting. Do you honestly believe that anti hunters do not look for info such as this to use against us? Look over the article, this thing was tame, it wasn't a game animal.

Do you really condone this sort of thing? Doesn't matter where it occurs, it is bad.

And, for the record, yes there are a few "high fence" operations in Colorado. But, they are all grandfathered in and there are no new operations allowed. We're in the process of eliminating that type of thing in Colorado. How many new ones will you allow to open in Texas this year?

Don't sweat it 505. This guy hates Texas and rips on it every chance he gets.

Yes there are high fence operations in Texas. There is also more free range low fence private land in Texas than the entire state of Colorado. Our hunting, and shooting cattle , industry also generates billions of dollars in income for the state, hunters, and private business. We have the largest Hunting/Shooting/killing industry on the face of the planet. Eat your heart out Colorado. At least yall have good snow skiing.

Ben

Sounds like fair chase to me, after all, it wasn't hog tied when he shot it
Lighten up gents, As PT Barnum said," There's one born every minute".

quote:

Do you really condone this sort of thing? Doesn't matter where it occurs, it is bad.

And, for the record, yes there are a few "high fence" operations in Colorado. But, they are all grandfathered in and there are no new operations allowed. We're in the process of eliminating that type of thing in Colorado. How many new ones will you allow to open in Texas this year?

Who is talking about "this sort of thing"? I was referring to your ignorant generalization. And for the second part, spoken like a true liberal ward of the state. Let's make sure that the government is as involved in business as possible, that way, when someone does something you don't like, you can legislate against them. I have news for you Mac, one day, you won't be the one thats connected, and the legislation will be against you.

If you look this guy up on facebook. Evidently money can buy happiness for some. I believe he is under the age of 21 and has taken many of the great trophies of the world. Maybe they were in boma's, I don't know. If you look at the current world record Nyala (held by a lady) you'll see this one will need to surpass 37 inches to beat the No. 1 spot.
LDK

quote:

Originally posted by L. David Keith:
If you look this guy up on facebook. Evidently money can buy happiness for some. I believe he is under the age of 21 and has taken many of the great trophies of the world. Maybe they were in boma's, I don't know. If you look at the current world record Nyala (held by a lady) you'll see this one will need to surpass 37 inches to beat the No. 1 spot.
LDK

This means he is a "collector", not a hunter.

And there is a world of difference between the two.

quote:

This means he is a "collector", not a hunter.

And there is a world of difference between the two.

Well said that man.

I may have to quit posting, I started a Civil War between Texas and Colorado!
I personally agree with Saeed's first post.
If you want to kill such an animal under the circumstances it was taken, fine, just don't insult hunters by submitting it to record books!

A lot of you think record books are for "hunting trophies" ONLY. Not the case when sheds, skulls, purchased horns and antlers can be entered into RW and Boone and Crockett and the like. These are the rules set up by the individual organizations that maintain their record keeping function. So get off the high and mighty, not a "hunting trophy", shouldn't be in the book pedestal. It's their record book, the can do as they like.

It's the animal, it's horn/skull/antler measurement that is being entered not each and everyones personal idea of what should and should not be placed in the book. Grow up folks that's how it is.

Here is an idea, start your own record book for sport hunted trophies only. Let's see what kind of concenses you all can come up with for what deteremines "sport hunted trophy". That should take up a thousand or so posts.

I choose to live in a Border State of both Colorado and Texas, New Mexico is tops by the way!!

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

Larry Sellers
SCI Life Member

All four of the current most popular record books, RW, SCI, B&C and Pope and Young all have fair chase requirements for "hunted" animals Larry.
I personally don't think the Nyala in question belongs in any of them! If the killer wants to throw it out in his backyard, let it lay there a few years, pick it up and enter as a found animal, I won't object!

I myself did some dumb stuff in my 20s. Hopefully this kid can grow out of this sort of thing.

Agreed Saeed. If one reads Mr. Flack's article, you get his feelings on this as well.
Good hunting,
David

the biggest problem with hunting is the record books what started as science is now a dick measuring competition

luckily hunting and golf is very much the same there if you cheat nobody may know but at night you still have to live with it. every time you see that trophy you are reminded of its short comings.you compete against yourself anyway

it is such a disease with some hunter it actually deprives them of enjoying hunting and hunting for the right reasons.

I have a friend who has never been to Africa.

In fact, he does not hunt at all.
But, he likes animals, and I have given him a whole stack of them.

They include sable, kudu, waterbuck, zebra, buffalo, impala mounts to display in his house.

Walter spent some time with him to "teach him about HIS trophies"

Walter, in his own inemitable way, gave him all the rong names.

The kudu became the waterbuck. The waterbuck became the sable etc.

One day he had a big dinner party, and I was invited.

Walter and me were laughing so much which he was tellign stpries of how he shot HIS sable - pointing to a waterbuck.

The good thing was that the guest he was talking to has no idea about the animals either!

After that we asked him to coming along with us to Africa.

"You must be JOKING! Spend 3 weeks with you and Walter in the middle of the bush in Africa? No thanks

How bout simply adding a new section the the record books titled 'hand fed' catagory?

quote:

This means he is a "collector", not a hunter.

And there is a world of difference between the two.

Possibly the truest and most conclusive words ever posted on this forum!!!

JW

Agree....but the problem is, most "collectors" think they are "hunters"....viewed from personal experience as one of my best friends thinks he is a "hunter"----he is on ducks....but it ends there....everything else he has and wants is a collection expedition and he is really pizzed when he does not collect....and he is way old enuff to know better....he never matured from having to "kill to have hunted" as Ortega y Gasset might have said..

This farm raised, free range chicken hunting will be the club the antis beat us with.

I would say more but I need to catch a flight to Texas to hunt Bongo. Can anyone loan me a big belt buckle and silly hat?