Gents:
A second question I have for your consideration. Why are most 2x1 hunt prices so close to a 1x1 hunt price? I've wondred about this for years but a recent ad for a Zambia hippo hunt brought it to my attention again.

5 hippos for a 1x1 price of 14,000 USD, Umlilo Safaris.
The same hunt for 2x1 is 13,000 USD each
(I'm not picking on Umlilo, it was just their ad I noticed--many if not most hunts are priced such as this).

It seems to me when one hunts 2x1 mathematically one's hunt time is halved. Why would anyone do so when they could pay the additional $1000 and double their hunt time?

As always, just curious and I value the opinions of most of you gentlemen here.
Cal

It's really to cover added camp and transportation costs. At the end of the day, the PH is only going to hunt with one client at a time.

The benefit to the PH/operator is more trophy animals fall over on a 2X2 vs 1x1... generally.

A strong sense of De Ja Vu!

Cal, seems we have been here before?

See the previous thread here:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...821085771#7821085771

It works well for me as I hunt alot with my son. We want to experience the hunt together, be with each other during the stalk and shot....

Since we always hunt together, we plan enough days for both of us to be successful while hunting with the same PH or Guide...

I think the cost is relative to the possibility that the companion hunter may be as big a numbskull as the main hunter, and in that case a big discount is not warranted by the outfitter.

It's an opportunity for negotiation, just like observer fees. In situations where quota is limited and always 100% utilized, and the vast majority of the outfitter's profit comes from daily rate rather than trophy fees (e.g., cat hunts and fancy stuff like sable, mountain nyala, and bongo), the opportunity to negotiate is much lower, as killing more animals in fewer paid days doesn't make sense. But where quota isn't 100% utilized at full rates or where the second hunter isn't going for the most expensive trophies (e.g., a kid shooting plains game or even buffalo while mom or dad hunts cats), there are usually opportunities to cut a deal, especially if one books direct and not through an agent.

same reason a non hunting companion costs so much

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
A strong sense of De Ja Vu!

Cal, seems we have been here before?

See the previous thread here:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...821085771#7821085771

Gee Todd, six years ago. How do you remember such things? Hell, I've forgotten most of yesterday.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
A strong sense of De Ja Vu!

Cal, seems we have been here before?

See the previous thread here:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...821085771#7821085771

Gee Todd, six years ago. How do you remember such things? Hell, I've forgotten most of yesterday.
Cal

LOL Cal.

No idea my man. I'm both blessed and cursed with remembering little details. Unfortunately, I seem to be loosing the ability to remember important things as I get older!

It is getting to the point Cal will complain about the costs even if he was PAID to hunt!

Living in the frozen north of the country, where even germs cannot survive, and he is comparing it with Africa!

Where LIFE STARTED

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It is getting to the point Cal will complain about the costs even if he was PAID to hunt!

Living in the frozen north of the country, where even germs cannot survive, and he is comparing it with Africa!

Where LIFE STARTED

Always nice to hear from you, Saeed. I'm sure after I post on my buffalo hunt with MS later in the summer you will be posting like a machine gun.
Cheers from Alaska.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It is getting to the point Cal will complain about the costs even if he was PAID to hunt!

Living in the frozen north of the country, where even germs cannot survive, and he is comparing it with Africa!

Where LIFE STARTED

Always nice to hear from you, Saeed. I'm sure after I post on my buffalo hunt with MS later in the summer you will be posting like a machine gun.
Cheers from Alaska.
Cal

I look forward to seeing your "hunt" report.

Don't forget to include the tag number of the buffalo you are "hunting" with your hero.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
It is getting to the point Cal will complain about the costs even if he was PAID to hunt!

Living in the frozen north of the country, where even germs cannot survive, and he is comparing it with Africa!

Where LIFE STARTED

Always nice to hear from you, Saeed. I'm sure after I post on my buffalo hunt with MS later in the summer you will be posting like a machine gun.
Cheers from Alaska.
Cal

I look forward to seeing your "hunt" report.

Don't forget to include the tag number of the buffalo you are "hunting" with your hero.

I hope you won't ban me after I write the report. Can we agree on that, my friend, that you won't ban me from AR?
Cheers,
Cal

The cost issue is prepreation, no. of tags, licenses etc. for one makes it easy to hunt two people so you get a $1000 discount..when it should be $14,000 each..Whats so bad about that, the outfitter takes the hit not you..I bet if you bought two cars, you could get one of them for $1000 less!! Its a means to make the hunter a better deal..

As to a non paying hunter, they are just as much trouble as a paying hunter, and you don't get trophy fees...They eat, sleep, ride, photograph, take up a camp bed and perhaps a tent, require laundry, hot water, and all the amenities including a spot on the air charter in some cases all this for up to 30 days in some cases...Its cheap when you put a pencil to it, and understand it..Not to mention that most PHs let the kid or wife shoot some plainsgame..

The question is without substance IMO, but by a very respected gentleman IMO..

The Maths don't add up Ray.

One person pays $14k. What is the EXTRA cost of taking a second hunter? THAT is the question.

Let us try and break it down

* Petrol - no extra cost - you drive the same KMs for the same number of days
* PH wages - no extra - you hunt the same number of days
* Camp staff costs - very little extra for personal laundry, kitchen etc - Max $30 a day
* Food & drinks - max $50 per day for 5 star meals when most of the meat is from the hunt

So a 10 day hunt may cost at the most - $ 1,000 extra. You want to add concession fees, etc. - max $2000.

Where does the extra $11,000 go? If it includes trophy fees for the hippo, then that is understandable.

Just wondering. Happy to be corrected with line by line breakdown of COSTS.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The cost issue is prepreation, no. of tags, licenses etc. for one makes it easy to hunt two people so you get a $1000 discount..when it should be $14,000 each..Whats so bad about that, the outfitter takes the hit not you..I bet if you bought two cars, you could get one of them for $1000 less!! Its a means to make the hunter a better deal..

As to a non paying hunter, they are just as much trouble as a paying hunter, and you don't get trophy fees...They eat, sleep, ride, photograph, take up a camp bed and perhaps a tent, require laundry, hot water, and all the amenities including a spot on the air charter in some cases all this for up to 30 days in some cases...Its cheap when you put a pencil to it, and understand it..Not to mention that most PHs let the kid or wife shoot some plainsgame..

The question is without substance IMO, but by a very respected gentleman IMO..

I agree with Nakihunter on this one. Part of the cost of the hunt is paying the PH. Well, a 2x1 only has 1 PH. If it was 2x2, then no, I don't see why it would be discounted at all.

Certain costs are fixed; the equipment, etc. From a business standpoint you are not giving up any more time slots to host a 2x1.

The quota issue is valid. The daily rate math is a bit puzzling, since a 2x1 hunt that not likely to be booked as two 1x1 hunts. Assuming quota is not an issue, and the objective function is to maximize profit, it would make sense to price 2x1 hunts lower, but maybe I am missing something...

Probably missing that the hunt operators are often adding a bit to the trophy fee price, and if its a 2x1, the odds are that half as many animals will be shot by each hunter- of course that still doesn't make up all of it. Quota is a bit different- and probably should be talked about by operator and client in advance. Most of the 2x1 hunts I have seen were in Tanzania and amounted to sharing a license, even if that is not quite kosher.

Licenses are a pretty minimal cost of an African hunt.

We are not talking the relatively modest cost of a observer rate here (although observer rates are probably relatively spendy compared to photosafari rates.)

The only thought I had was usually 2x1 hunts are more angst giving for staff than the usual 1x1.

When I first started looking at African safari's back in the mid 80's, there was a fair bit more of a discount for 2x1 than it is nowadays. My first safari in TZ was 2x1 and it was for Buff and PG and in our case, we were all hunting at the same time and we got two buff one day and the rest a couple of days later. We hunted PG and traded off on who got first shot, we were pretty efficient and the PH and trackers did a good job and got us shots. I think there ought to be a bit more than a !K discount, but, then again, if it is tough hunting, someone might come up light.

I find it interesting the different viewpoints..
Some think it's a reasonable "discount" others not...(it's damn sure not a discount in my mind)
Frankly, if we weren't dealing with limited quota in the equation I would say it's a horrible deal..the revenue is nearly double and the real cost increase to the operator is extremely minimal. Take into account we are talking about increasing revenue many thousands of dollars...the model makes no sense..
Except....one very important fact. They only have "x" amount of "product" at their disposal meaning quota for certain game..
Thus they must maximize revenue (and none of would be happy with the quality if an operator simply pumped mass amounts of people through camps and areas pounding game.

Now...Fishing...I think THAT model is a horrible deal in most areas...
That's not a finite product (fish in the sea)...
Book a trip in Guatemala, Panama, Costa Rica.. the cost goes down "per angler" VERY little between 2/3/4 anglers?? And it's a lot of money..four anglers for three days for example is many thousands more than two anglers (priced FAR beyond the cost of an extra double occupancy room and some booze)
Boat was paid for off the first angler...bait..fuel...etc. someone "justify" that price model to me other than..."they can" and people "charge the maximum of what they can get"....

This is one thing I have always wondered about.

I remember one member complaining about the price of animals in Namibia sometime ago.

He looked at several offers, where the same animals are offered at different prices.

He then went on and added all the cheapest prices together, and was asking why no one offers a hunt at that price??

So using the same logic, I will start.

Both hunters using the same tent to sleep in - should be no extra charge, as the tent is there anyway.

Both hunters using the same truck - should be no charge.

Both hunters with the same PH - should be no charge.

Food - add this.

Laundry - add this.

Hunting license - add this.

If the hunt is very successful.

PH - getting twice as much fun - he should give a discount.

If the hunt was NOT successful due to bad clients - PH should get a hefty bonus.

Please add to this, and let us see where get

When you buy a 1 x 1 hunt you are obviously happy with the overall cost yet when the hunt becomes 2 x 1 you all make it sound as though the discount should be closer to 100%.

Costs per hunter don't really change except when on the same vehicle.

Each hunter has his own license, royalties, import permits, blah, blah, blah, - we know all that - the government authorities don't distinguish between 1 or 10 (in fact no govt does) so don't expect any discounts from that department.

The PH gets paid a slightly higher rate on a 2 x 1 than he does for a 1 x 1 (around 15% if I recall) - double the work to make things happen usually in a short space of time - those 7 & 10 days x 2 budget hunts can be real bitch safaris especially when the clients want the biggest and the best.

When its 1 client its 1 tent, food portions, etc etc. - 2 clients will normally have their own accommodation, don't normally share a tent unless its Mr. & Mrs/Ms/Miss

Let's go book ourselves a hotel room: double vs single; damn its still one room, they won't charge double but will sure as hell not give it for the rate of a single + 10%.

As recently as 6-8 years ago here on AR there were many super good 2X offers listed. That has gone. It falls into the same category as the charters. You can call it whatever you wish but they are offering what the market will bear. As hunting participation in Africa continues to slide south we should start seeing better 2X and charter pricing.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
The Maths don't add up Ray.

One person pays $14k. What is the EXTRA cost of taking a second hunter? THAT is the question.

Let us try and break it down

* Petrol - no extra cost - you drive the same KMs for the same number of days
* PH wages - no extra - you hunt the same number of days
* Camp staff costs - very little extra for personal laundry, kitchen etc - Max $30 a day
* Food & drinks - max $50 per day for 5 star meals when most of the meat is from the hunt

So a 10 day hunt may cost at the most - $ 1,000 extra. You want to add concession fees, etc. - max $2000.

Where does the extra $11,000 go? If it includes trophy fees for the hippo, then that is understandable.

Just wondering. Happy to be corrected with line by line breakdown of COSTS.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The cost issue is prepreation, no. of tags, licenses etc. for one makes it easy to hunt two people so you get a $1000 discount..when it should be $14,000 each..Whats so bad about that, the outfitter takes the hit not you..I bet if you bought two cars, you could get one of them for $1000 less!! Its a means to make the hunter a better deal..

As to a non paying hunter, they are just as much trouble as a paying hunter, and you don't get trophy fees...They eat, sleep, ride, photograph, take up a camp bed and perhaps a tent, require laundry, hot water, and all the amenities including a spot on the air charter in some cases all this for up to 30 days in some cases...Its cheap when you put a pencil to it, and understand it..Not to mention that most PHs let the kid or wife shoot some plainsgame..

The question is without substance IMO, but by a very respected gentleman IMO..

It’s not that bad Naki. At least you will not need to leave a tip

Folks,

Here's a few points that I think need to be stated on this 2x1 vs 1x1 and observer costs. First I never recommend a 2x1 unless it's for two people who are as interested in the other part of the 2x1 having as good a success as they are in their own success. Even if the saving is notable it is the easiest way for 2 friends to end up enemies at safari's end. Have a 2x1 hunt with hunter winning the coin toss wound his buffalo on day one and then spend 3 days hunting for it while the other hunter does nothing and there's going to be some resentment that will taint the whole safari. Second PH's generally hate 2x1's. There's more to it than the actual cost of putting on the hunt. The PH has twice the work to do in half the time. Compound that with the scenario in the first point and you have a very hard job for the PH. My first PH told me his worst nightmare was 2x1 dangerous game safari. Additionally safari operators want their hunters to have a good time and they know that a 2x1 can be a disaster so they often give very little financial incentives to book a 2x1. Lastly and a point I think Ray was trying to make is that an observer gets to do everything the hunter does with the exception of pull the trigger and the PH ends up with an extra person to take care of. To me that is a bargain at $250-$350 per day.

Mark

With respect - that is NOT true

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
When you buy a 1 x 1 hunt you are obviously happy with the overall cost yet when the hunt becomes 2 x 1 you all make it sound as though the discount should be closer to 100%. No one asked for 100% discount. That is ridiculous. We are asking if the costs actually are 90% more for 1 extra person. BIG BIG difference. You are not answering that.

Costs per hunter don't really change except when on the same vehicle. 2X1 is one PH & 1 vehicle. So same cost. The argument that the PH has to work twice as hard is BS.

Each hunter has his own license, royalties, import permits, blah, blah, blah, - we know all that - the government authorities don't distinguish between 1 or 10 (in fact no govt does) so don't expect any discounts from that department. Yes that is not 90% of the cost. What % is that? Max 1 or 2 K?

The PH gets paid a slightly higher rate on a 2 x 1 than he does for a 1 x 1 (around 15% if I recall) - double the work I do not see double the work if 1X1 is a full hunt for ALL days booked. 15% extra is reasonable. No issue with that. to make things happen usually in a short space of time - those 7 & 10 days x 2 budget hunts can be real bitch safaris especially when the clients want the biggest and the best.

When its 1 client its 1 tent, food portions, etc etc. - 2 clients will normally have their own accommodation, don't normally share a tent unless its Mr. & Mrs/Ms/Miss Again what is the extra COST? Max 10% extra. Not 90%. How about a line by line costing so the margins are transparent for all to see. THAT was Cal's original question

Let's go book ourselves a hotel room: double vs single; damn its still one room, they won't charge double but will sure as hell not give it for the rate of a single + 10%. No most hotels have a double occupancy rate and you pay the same for single occupancy.

Naki,

Once again you're speaking about what you have no personal knowledge of. I've hunted 1x1, 1x1 with 2 observers, 2x1 and 2x1 with 1 observer. Every person you add to the vehicle makes the PH's job more difficult. Every move the PH makes during day he has to consider how it will effect each member of the party so that nobody feels left out. Most PH's handle this very smoothly but it is not easy. The PH has multiple people to make happy. It is a shit load more work.

When you buy a safari your not buying tangible good like a computer or TV but you're buying in the most part the PH's expertise. That expertise is the most valuable part of the safari and more than justifies the cost to each member of the 2x1 as the PH has to give 100% of his expertise to each hunter let alone take care of observers.

Mark

Mark

Of course I have no idea. Hence I asked the question. Cal asked the question first, and he has a lot of experience. Back to the topic please.

I hear all kinds of claims but no detailed line by line break down of costs.

It seems that you are claiming that the Outfitter (NOT the PH) is entitled to earn 75% more for the same day's work when he has 2 clients to look after but hunts with just 1 at a time. Someone said that the PH gets 15% extra for the 2X1 deal. So your argument about PH expertise costing the extra does not cut the mustard.

The rest of the daily rate goes towards other Overheads like staff, food, accommodation, licenses etc.

Like a school teacher with 25 kids in class or 40 kids in class?

Or a tour guide with 20 people in a bus or 30 people in a bus? The tour operator (like the outfitter) on the other hand will get a bigger profit of there are more people on the tour.

Or a retail store manager on a days when he has just 100 people through the door versus 300 through the door when there is a sale on? The store owner (like the outfitter) on the other hand will get a big profit if there are more people in the store.

In this particular deal, it is not clear if the trophy fees for 5 hippo are included in the deal. If it included the trophy fees, then it is a great deal, no question. If not, the $11k difference is not explained.

I repeat, my lack of knowledge or experience is not the question.

I repeat - please give us a line by line breakdown on costs. Let us see what is cost, what is margin and what is extra profit. Simple.

The question is if the rates are justified by line item or not.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Naki,

Once again you're speaking about what you have no personal knowledge of. I've hunted 1x1, 1x1 with 2 observers, 2x1 and 2x1 with 1 observer. Every person you add to the vehicle makes the PH's job more difficult. Every move the PH makes during day he has to consider how it will effect each member of the party so that nobody feels left out. Most PH's handle this very smoothly but it is not easy. The PH has multiple people to make happy. It is a shit load more work.

When you buy a safari your not buying tangible good like a computer or TV but you're buying in the most part the PH's expertise. That expertise is the most valuable part of the safari and more than justifies the cost to each member of the 2x1 as the PH has to give 100% of his expertise to each hunter let alone take care of observers.

Mark

I suppose next time any of us is going into a shop to buy something we must have a list of questions to ask the shop keeper.

Let us assume we are going into a gun shop to buy a double rifle.

The price is $5,000.

What is your reaction?

Is it worth it TO YOU?

Then you buy it.

It is not worth it TO YOU>

You do not buy it.

You do not start asking the dealer for a break down of why he is charging this amount for it.

Frankly, I would not pay $5 for a double rifle, as I think they are bloody useless for my hunting!

Bloody hell, you don't like the price, negotiate.

You still do ot like the price, do not go on the hunt!

Saeed

The principle of affordability is well understood by all.

This is a discussion asking for clarification & justification, for lack of a better term.

This is not a retail business but a custom service contract. BIG difference.

Let us say I go to a financial advisor for his expert advise. He charges an hourly rate or a lump sum rate. Would he charge me 90% more if I took my son or wife along for the meeting? Or does he increase his commission % if we are 2 people?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I suppose next time any of us is going into a shop to buy something we must have a list of questions to ask the shop keeper.

Let us assume we are going into a gun shop to buy a double rifle.

The price is $5,000.

What is your reaction?

Is it worth it TO YOU?

Then you buy it.

It is not worth it TO YOU>

You do not buy it.

You do not start asking the dealer for a break down of why he is charging this amount for it.

Frankly, I would not pay $5 for a double rifle, as I think they are bloody useless for my hunting!

Bloody hell, you don't like the price, negotiate.

You still do ot like the price, do not go on the hunt!

EXACTLY ! - End of story

Is it worth it TO YOU?

Then you buy it.

It is not worth it TO YOU>

You do not buy it.


You still do ot like the price, do not go on the hunt![/QUOTE]

Let's turn this discussion around:

Naki what would you consider would be the correct or honest amount for a similar hunt?

Please substantiate your answer (if any) with a breakdown of the costs.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
Let's turn this discussion around:

Naki what would you consider would be the correct or honest amount for a similar hunt?

Please substantiate your answer (if any) with a breakdown of the costs.

I would like to see this!

Please include how many clients you have booked as 1x1 and 2x1 in your break down so we can understand it better!

My take is simple,
The outfitters in a concession n have quotas on game.
They must make a certain profit on each animal taken.
This Isn’t just the trophy cost, day fees are what’s packaged into this equation.
An easy analogy is if you book a double tuskless or buff hunt. Generally either the day fees will be higher, or the outfitter will require 14 days min. As opposed to 10 days for a single animal.
I Have no problem with this.
That’s why the 2 for 1 deals aren’t really for me though.
Much better to get your own PH and crew for little extra $$

quote:

Originally posted by 2PIPE:
My take is simple,
The outfitters in a concession n have quotas on game.
They must make a certain profit on each animal taken.
This Isn’t just the trophy cost, day fees are what’s packaged into this equation.
An easy analogy is if you book a double tuskless or buff hunt. Generally either the day fees will be higher, or the outfitter will require 14 days min. As opposed to 10 days for a single animal.
I Have no problem with this.
That’s why the 2 for 1 deals aren’t really for me though.
Much better to get your own PH and crew for little extra $$

Exactly.

Like many, I started my African hunting in RSA. What I was exposed to at the time was a set day rate, and you just paid the trophy fees for any animals shot over and above that.

My first Zim hunt was organized through a RSA PH I was friends with. He came along on the hunt as an observer but never had a gun in his hand. It was his first experience with Zim as well.

The hunt was for Elephant Bull and Leopard. I have described this hunt before and the details surrounding it but due to equipment failure and subsequent communication breakdown trying to sort out the equipment issue while the cat was feeding in the tree, I ended up shooting a female leopard. Disappointing but fully importable as at the time, this was prior to some of the penalties instituted on taking the wrong cat, both for the hunter and PH. Now, this was late October in 2008 prior to elections when Zim was going through some stability issues (is that a Capt. Obvious quotable quote?) and there were not a lot of hunters scheduled to finish out the year.

The camp operator informed us there was 1 remaining leopard on quota for the year and that I could have it if I wanted as they had no additional hunts scheduled. When inquiring about the price, I expected it would simply be the additional trophy fee as it would have been in RSA for the hunts I had done to date before. Not the case at all. The trophy fee at the time was something like $4,000 IIRC, but they wanted $15,000 to hunt another leopard. When I asked why as "isn't the day rate already set and paid for since I'm here and in camp?". Answer ... NO. Each hunt is a combination of the trophy fee and day rate. So bottom line is if I wanted to hunt the second leopard, I needed to pay for a second leopard hunt, somewhat discounted, not just the second trophy fee.

So 2X1, you may think you are only incurring the second trophy fee, but in fact, the price for off taking that second animal from the quota block is comprised of a combination of day rates and trophy fee.

Bottom line, is:

The price is the price. You can attempt to negotiate. If negotiations result in a price you feel is valuable to you, do it. If negotiations fail, take a pass. But don't whine about it.

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Naki,

Once again you're speaking about what you have no personal knowledge of. I've hunted 1x1, 1x1 with 2 observers, 2x1 and 2x1 with 1 observer. Every person you add to the vehicle makes the PH's job more difficult. Every move the PH makes during day he has to consider how it will effect each member of the party so that nobody feels left out. Most PH's handle this very smoothly but it is not easy. The PH has multiple people to make happy. It is a shit load more work.

When you buy a safari your not buying tangible good like a computer or TV but you're buying in the most part the PH's expertise. That expertise is the most valuable part of the safari and more than justifies the cost to each member of the 2x1 as the PH has to give 100% of his expertise to each hunter let alone take care of observers.

Mark

Mark is spot on, in my opinion. I'm doing a 2x1 dangerous game hunt next year, BUT, the other hunter is my son. He's never hunted Buffalo before, so we are doing a 2x1 10 day buffalo hunt. He's probably the only person I'd do a 2x1 hunt with, as I'm 2nd fiddle for sure on that hunt... except for paying the bill! I'll get more satisfaction watching him hunt and shoot Buffalo than I will myself.

quote:

So 2X1, you may think you are only incurring the second trophy fee, but in fact, the price for off taking that second animal from the quota block is comprised of a combination of day rates and trophy fee.

Bottom line, is:

The price is the price. You can attempt to negotiate. If negotiations result in a price you feel is valuable to you, do it. If negotiations fail, take a pass. But don't whine about it.

Correct answer Todd.

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Naki,

Once again you're speaking about what you have no personal knowledge of. I've hunted 1x1, 1x1 with 2 observers, 2x1 and 2x1 with 1 observer. Every person you add to the vehicle makes the PH's job more difficult. Every move the PH makes during day he has to consider how it will effect each member of the party so that nobody feels left out. Most PH's handle this very smoothly but it is not easy. The PH has multiple people to make happy. It is a shit load more work.

When you buy a safari your not buying tangible good like a computer or TV but you're buying in the most part the PH's expertise. That expertise is the most valuable part of the safari and more than justifies the cost to each member of the 2x1 as the PH has to give 100% of his expertise to each hunter let alone take care of observers.

Mark

Mark is spot on, in my opinion. I'm doing a 2x1 dangerous game hunt next year, BUT, the other hunter is my son. He's never hunted Buffalo before, so we are doing a 2x1 10 day buffalo hunt. He's probably the only person I'd do a 2x1 hunt with, as I'm 2nd fiddle for sure on that hunt... except for paying the bill! I'll get more satisfaction watching him hunt and shoot Buffalo than I will myself.

Yep, great example of a circumstance where it makes total sense. Otherwise, you’d essentially be an idiot not to do a 2x2 vs a 2x1
This year I’m taking one of my Brothers as an observer. That’s great and he’s a great photographer too.
But from an actual hunting perspective and value it’s not a good deal.
I’ll be more than happy to catch up with my hunting buddies back around the campfire with a drink and tell stories.

I have no experience here whatsoever so I have to ask. If you book a 2x2 hunt, ie 2 hunters, 2 PH's etc. do you get 2 complete camp setups as well, twice the staff, twice the vehicles...? If that is the case it would seem the 2x2 hunt would be the way to go?
C.G.B.

Fulvio, Mark, Saeed and others.

Please read the OP. Let us stick to that question and not avoid it and turn it around to try and discredit others.

Simple.

Why is a 2X1 hunt almost as expensive as a 1X1 hunt? Why such a high price when most costs are the same and there is little extra cost for the extra person? WHY? JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION.

If the answer is "The price is NOT based on costs but on what the market will bear", fine, then just say so and stop the BS about extra costs, harder work etc. etc. Just be honest and state the truth.

With all these smokes and mirrors and avoiding the question, the topic is starting to stink a bit.

quote:

Originally posted by fulvio:
Let's turn this discussion around:

Naki what would you consider would be the correct or honest amount for a similar hunt?

Please substantiate your answer (if any) with a breakdown of the costs.

This is my interpretation. Let's make it real simple so even Naki can follow.

For example there is a concession that has two buffalo on quota for the year. That means they can theoretically sell two complete 1x1 buffalo hunts for $15,000 a piece. Say 10 days at $1000/day plus a $5000 trophy. Forget the other dip/pack etc charges. So now comes along Naki and he says he wants to bring a buddy, if he has one, and they both want buffalo and they want to hunt 2 x 1. Well the PH/outfitter could have sold that second buffalo as another 1 x 1 hunt for $15,000 but he decides to cut the two guys a slight discount and charge the second guy $800/day and the full trophy fee of $5000. This would be $15,000 for one and an additional $13,000 for the second guy for a total of $28,000 for the 2 x 1 hunt versus $30,000 if he had 2 separate 1 x 1 hunts. Either way he is still not getting a tip from Naki.

Follow?