quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Just curious, gents, but it seems to me the animal's suffering is prolonged by the PHs who wait 1/2 hour to 45 minutes to "let the animal stiffen up" before the tracking begins. This is a common practice--not due to fear of a charge--but so the animal is not full of flight and runs off. Mark's actions, while a bit theatrical, put a quicker end to the wounded critter than the above stated method.
Cheers, mates.
Cal
PS. Out of the hospital and on the mend. Monday I will begin my minute by minute study of Mark's films as to who shot and how many shot, charges and if induced or not, etc. This will be done in a factual manner to set the facts straight, not to argue opinions, or start the pissing contests again.

Wish you a speedy recovery
The reason to "let the animal stiffen up" is to stop the animal from flight, to be able to finish it off and thereby not prolonging it´s suffering. To shorten a follow-up that could last hours if not days.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Maximus Brutus:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Todd,

When I go hunting, I like to shoot my own animals.

I don't want the so called PH to shoot them for me.

Imagine going out to dinner, and paying a premium price for some choice dish, and the cook sits on your table and eats it.

Saeed, how many examples of MS shooting his client's animals did you see in the video I posted?

Every single buffalo charge that I have seen was shot by him.

Saeed,

In the opening credits of the buffalo section of "Beasts of Legend" (5:27 time mark into the video) as well as the opening credits for every Tracks Across Africa show, Ivan Carter simultaneously shoots a charging buffalo along with his client at very close range. Now you say, every single buffalo charge in the Mark Sullivan videos were shot by Mark. Several of those charges are shot in the very same manner, which is to say, he and his client shoot simultaneously at very close range; in the very same manner that the Ivan Carter charge mentioned above is handled in those opening credits. So why no comments that "Ivan shoots his clients buffalo for them"?

Simply stated, I have yet to see a charge in one of Mark's video's where the client did not shoot first and fail to stop the animal, causing Mark to have to shoot, with the following exceptions. There are a few, especially hippo charges, where he and the client wait to the last second and shoot together in the same manner as described above in Ivan's Beasts of Legend. Somehow from this, it is now stated that Mark ALWAYS shoots his clients animals for them. Then, when a specific segment is pointed out, using the name of the video and the time stamp where it occurs, where the client shoots and stops the animal by himself, it is then stated that the client killed it "before Mark had a chance to shoot". That's where I get lost in the debate. On one hand, he is chastised for shooting the client's animal, on the other hand, he isn't quick enough and is only denied getting into the action because the client handled the situation too quickly. That's playing both sides of the coin, pure and simple.

Why can't the comments be kept to accurate statements? If he is that bad, accurate statements should be enough to make the point and vilify the man. Exactly the same as the comments that he has no lion charges. When it's pointed out that he does have lion charges on his videos, it is then stated that "well he has his clients shoot the cat several times from the blind to make sure it is dead". Yeah, that's right. Isn't that the proper thing to do to prevent a charge; pay the insurance? Playing both sides of the coin again. It is either one way or the other, not both. Just keep the comments fair and accurate. Why is that so hard to do?

I just want to go back and make one of my earlier points clear. I see no problem whatsoever in the manner in which Ivan and his client shoot simultaneously in that buffalo charge I cited. I see no problem whatsoever in the manner in which Andrew Dawson puts a round into the standing buffalo while his client reloads (a point I made in an earlier post). No problem with those scenes at all and I don't want to be taken out of context concerning mentioning them. I simply pointed them out because there are no negative comments made toward those two well respected PHs in relation to those scenes. However, if Mark does the same thing, he is quickly taken to task as shooting his client's animals for them; unfairly in my opinion.

These are my last comments on this thread Saeed because you and I aren't going to change each other's opinions on the subject concerning fair and accurate statements. We are going round and round to no end. And after all, you called it when you stated earlier that guys like me can't possibly have the proper perspective since I'm not a REAL hunter, in your opinion!

Todd,

As far as I am concerned, ANYONE who goes hunting and have his PH kill his animal is not a REAL hunter.

Todd, another well thought out post.

The problem appears to be that there are a few people who deeply dislike Mark, for whatever reason. They criticise his methods, his clients and anyone associated with him. They turn a blind eye or even try to justify similar incidents involving other PHs, especially those in favour here like Ivan. It's that inconsistency that I have a real problem with as it is neither fair nor honest.

The fact remains that Mark's videos are exciting. I will not deny I have enjoyed watching them and together with many other sources of information they have motivated me to hunt in Africa. I am sure ALL hunters will agree that this cannot be a bad thing.

Finally I find it rather ridiculous that we, who are responsible for killing 1000's of wild African animals each year somehow believe that because Mark approaches a downed buffalo from the front he is committing some kind of crime. We do actually kill things and sometimes we forget that.

We are all hunters and we value our freedom to hunt. We understand the value of conservation through hunting. To protect what we love we must stick together and be strong so let's be a bit more tolerant and just enjoy what we do.

There are some excellent local hunters here that I know who have, over the course of their lives, developed a hunting culture in which it does not upset them at all to be involved in a team effort to bring down game, whether boar or buffalo or whatever. They gladly share the experience and trigger time with friends and family. Now, that is not my style. The hunting I try to do and try to help others with is to achieve the killing of the game totally unassisted, wherever possible - an individual acheivement. That's what I prefer, to the point where someday when I am nearly ready to hunt a cow elephant, you blokes may have to field a question from me of which PHs will allow me to chest shoot one with my double .500NE totally unassisted. What I have seen in the movies is that unless you brain shoot an elephant, the PH automatically joins in, and I don't like that (unless it is the case of a missed brain shot) if a good chest shot has been made. Anyway, sorry to be a bit long-winded, but the point is that Mark isn't the only one who helps the client shoot game (at times, not always), so I wish people would stop suggesting that he is. A second point is that to some people - good people - it is not a big deal to share the shooting experience. To me it is a big deal to do it unassisted, but to others it is fine.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Todd,

As far as I am concerned, ANYONE who goes hunting and have his PH kill his animal is not a REAL hunter.

I apologize; I really do. Just one more if I may.

So what you are saying Saeed, is that ANYONE, who in the course of safari, has the PH chime in for whatever reason, suddenly is no longer a REAL hunter!

If for whatever reason, the client's shot fails to anchor the animal DRT and the animal is about to escape, the client is demoted from the status of REAL hunter if the PH chimes in attempting to stop the animal from crossing the boundary line?

On my last safari, there was a very nice lady hunter in camp, pursuing tuskless elephant. She specifically asked her PH to join in and help her at the shot. Is she not a REAL hunter? I would argue strongly in her favor as being the REAL thing. Why? Because I spent several days in camp with her listening to her speak of her love of Africa and it's animals and the pursuit thereof. She has a pure heart and greatly respects the ability to be afield with a rifle. This wasn't her first safari, nor her first successful elephant hunt. She was deeply moved by the taking of her animal, even though the PH helped out at her request. You're going to tell me she isn't a REAL hunter? I'm sorry sir, but you'll never convince me of that. Interesting definition of a REAL hunter you have there. As I mentioned earlier, divisive of our ranks to label someone like her as not being a REAL hunter as I think of her as a REAL asset to our dwindling fraternity.

On a positive note however, I suppose I am a REAL hunter after all. So far, I haven't had a PH participate in shooting on any of my hunts. Somehow, I think we are playing both sides of the coin again!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Todd,

When I go hunting, I like to shoot my own animals.

I don't want the so called PH to shoot them for me.

Imagine going out to dinner, and paying a premium price for some choice dish, and the cook sits on your table and eats it.

Saeed, how many examples of MS shooting his client's animals did you see in the video I posted?


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It's pretty obvious you haven't seen his other videos if you think he doesn't shoot his clients animals. How about the scene where he shoots Mark Egers (sp) elephant. The elephant starts to walk away from them and MS tells Egar to shoot. How many PHs would tell a client to fire there first shot at an elephant's ass? If you look closely you can see dirt kick up in the background to the left of the elephants left ear. A clear miss, unless it entered the elephants ass and came out his mouth. Of course MS fires once the elephant turns sideways and spines the elephant. The elephant drops to the ground and starts screaming and thrashing his truck around, and instead of finishing him off, MS is too busy sticking out his chest and asking his client to tell him about his shot(miss). By the way MS's client had a double and didn't get a chance to pull the second trigger by the time MS pulled his trigger. All I know is that I wouldn't be paying the TF on that elephant. I guess if his clients don't have a problem with him killing their animals that's on them since they are paying the bill. Like I have said before, I have learned a few things from his videos', but I have to watch them on Mute.


Sam

Again, Mark's commercial videos are not representative of what usually happens with his clients. Did you watch the video in the opening post?

Yes, I have seen most of his videos.

Most of his videos are very commercial products with plenty of action and yes, charges. Somebody said in another thread about Mark and Ivan that they were both "actors in our industry". I agree with that comment. I do not believe they are typical of the hunts Mark conducts. I do believe that the video I posted is.

quote:

Originally posted by Maximus Brutus:
Good post Todd

Unfortunately there appears to be a small group of people who have made their mind up about MS and won't let facts get in the way of a good story. How many of them actually watched the whole video I posted? Yes it is quite long, but I don't see any evidence of MS "shooting all his clients' animals". I see happy clients enjoying a close relationship with their PH with plenty of smiles all round. That's just the way it should be.

quote:

She specifically asked her PH to join in and help her at the shot.

If the client requests it because he/she thinks they might just botch it is not a sin, especially if they are first timers who decided to jump in at the deep end.

There have been numerous instances where the client has requested the PH to "assist on the count of three" - there have also been quite a few cases of just a single shot too! (This has no reference to MS though he might have encountered a similar situation).

Its a totally different kettle of fish when you have your PH hassling you to shoot, not even considering you may or may not have a window opening on the target and next thing you know lets fly with his blunderbuss and floors the subject.

Now say that isn't true.

quote:

Originally posted by Demonical:


MS does approach buffalo to set up the charge situation. But in that famous charge from Africa’s Black Death, he approaches from behind the buffalo.
In that particular charge, I think MS was surprised by what happened.
Watch that video again; that buff' was shot 5-6 times and went down, out in the open. It appeared to be dead.
So they drove up, MS got out and started walking up to it. He was pretty close before the buffalo showed any signs of life, and then it turned, rose up and it was VERY MUCH ALIVE!
It was game on then!

I've got quite a few of his videos. Haven't bought one since "In the Face of Death", but this new video looks pretty interesting. I may get it.

Demonical, I just went back and watched that charge on the tape "BLACK DEATH", and as I said before Mark approached to the front of the buffalo. What I call the BACK is an approach from the butt end, not quartering from the front.

The only reason the buff did not see mark’s approach is because he had his neck turned to his right looking back across his right hind quarter. If the buff had been looking forward, it would have seen mark’s approach.

It was plain to see the buff was still alive and before the buff turned it’s head around to see Mark he should have put a bullet in the bull’s spine. He didn’t because I think he wanted to move around for a brain shot. I too believe you are correct that it surprised Mark, not that the buff was alive, but that the buff had enough steam left to get up to it’s feet that fast, but the fact that the buff was alive was no mystery to Mark, he knew that buff was alive.

In any event none of that was needed anyway, because all they had to do was drive right up to the buffalo and let the client shoot him again!

The link here posted by Brutus, I’m sure is not the whole DVD but a carefully selected sequence in an attempt to make his point. If, as I said earlier, that clip is indicative of the whole DVD, then mark has markedly cleaned up his act! If that is the case IMO that is good news!

.................................................................................... ...................

quote:

Originally posted by MD375:

Saeeds comments about real hunters is pure bullshit, and I'm very surprised that he is worried about ethics since he clearly doesnt hunt in an ethical manner in many of his hunts.

Perhaps you could give us an example of what makes you believe Saeed hunts in an unethical manner and taking it a step further, perhaps you could spell out why you consider that behaviour unethical?

quote:

Originally posted by MD375:
Is shooting from the back of a van a good enough reason?

Perhaps you could direct us to a link where he says that and/or give us the scenario?

I'm sure that Saeed is big enough and ugly enough to fight his own battles and doesn't need me to butt in and I'm equally sure he'll comment if he feels the need but although I've never met him face to face, I do happen to know several of the people he does and all tell me he's a highly skilled and ethical hunter.

I think the point here is that we should not be judging people so readily and so vociferously.

Personally, I find the act of cutting off a dead elephant's tail almost as soon as it has been killed particularly objectionable and yes I do understand the historic reasons why this was done. Despite this it is not my place to tell others not to do it or to criticise or insult them because of it.

As I said earlier to protect what we love we must stick together and be strong so let's be a bit more tolerant and just enjoy what we do.

Andrew

Perhaps not quite as diplomatically put as my post but I have to say, very succinctly put!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Andrew

Perhaps not quite as diplomatically put as my post but I have to say, very succinctly put!

Let us just keep to the thread. There are two camps here and both sides have something of interest to say.

Whether Saeed shoot something from the back of a truck or I have my client shoot a leopard a few minutes after legal light is hardly the point.

Personally I am from the camp where as hunting is a gentleman's sport and Mr Sullivan is no gentleman.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
Personally I am from the camp where as hunting is a gentleman's sport and Mr Sullivan is no gentleman.

I wouldn't disagree with that statement.

The bottom line is IMO - Sullivan will be judged by his body of work - not by one film-clip or whatever. Even SCI threw him out!!

quote:

Mr Sullivan is no gentleman

I had made with MS several shows, competition, articles, pp.

I can say (if you like his style of hunting or not) HE IS A GENTLEMAN.
Exspecialy in life, in speaking with other people (from an "normal" worker to an billionäre, etc.), etc., etc.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by Demonical:


MS does approach buffalo to set up the charge situation. But in that famous charge from Africa’s Black Death, he approaches from behind the buffalo.
In that particular charge, I think MS was surprised by what happened.
Watch that video again; that buff' was shot 5-6 times and went down, out in the open. It appeared to be dead.
So they drove up, MS got out and started walking up to it. He was pretty close before the buffalo showed any signs of life, and then it turned, rose up and it was VERY MUCH ALIVE!
It was game on then!

I've got quite a few of his videos. Haven't bought one since "In the Face of Death", but this new video looks pretty interesting. I may get it.

Demonical, I just went back and watched that charge on the tape "BLACK DEATH", and as I said before Mark approached to the front of the buffalo. What I call the BACK is an approach from the butt end, not quartering from the front.

The only reason the buff did not see mark’s approach is because he had his neck turned to his right looking back across his right hind quarter. If the buff had been looking forward, it would have seen mark’s approach.

It was plain to see the buff was still alive and before the buff turned it’s head around to see Mark he should have put a bullet in the bull’s spine. He didn’t because I think he wanted to move around for a brain shot. I too believe you are correct that it surprised Mark, not that the buff was alive, but that the buff had enough steam left to get up to it’s feet that fast, but the fact that the buff was alive was no mystery to Mark, he knew that buff was alive.

In any event none of that was needed anyway, because all they had to do was drive right up to the buffalo and let the client shoot him again!

The link here posted by Brutus, I’m sure is not the whole DVD but a carefully selected sequence in an attempt to make his point. If, as I said earlier, that clip is indicative of the whole DVD, then mark has markedly cleaned up his act! If that is the case IMO that is good news!

.................................................................................... ...................

Actually, the charge at the end of Black Death is the only buffalo charge in either of his first 2 movies.
That's one reason I believe it surprised Sullivan. Because ever since that event, all of his buffalo hunting DVDs have focused on the forced charge.

When I watch them, I "put my brain on the shelf..."

I know what's going on, what's correct and what's entertainment.

Not much doubt that MS is the star of his movies, the client is along to supply the tag so MS can kill another trophy buff'. Cuz really, he kills about 80% of them outright; hammering them with the .600NE... although he's carrying a different rifle in this new DVD I think.

Off topic a little, wonder what happened to MS Watson Bros Royal Grade 700 Nitro Express SxS was for sale @ Champlins a few years back bet theres a good story or 2 to go along with it.

Snuff films. Not for me, thanks.

I have shot animals from the back of the truck, and I make absolutely no excuse for that.

That is how it is done in South Africa, on farms.

I believe in "when in Rome, do what the Roman's do"

Mark Sullivan does the exact opposite.

In normal hunting circles, the hunter shoots his animals, even finishing them off after being wounded in the first place.

He has single handedly invented "let him choose how wishes to die"

I wonder if he has the balls to ask the buffalo how he wishes to die if he did not have a 600 double in his hands

quote:

Originally posted by Maximus Brutus:
Most of his videos are very commercial products with plenty of action and yes, charges. Somebody said in another thread about Mark and Ivan that they were both "actors in our industry". I agree with that comment. I do not believe they are typical of the hunts Mark conducts. I do believe that the video I posted is.

What is the title of the video you posted?

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:
What is the title of the video you posted?

The title used on YouTube is "Mark Sullivan - Africa`s Safari - Death on the Run" and was posted by Canal de Caza. I don't know who they are but you can view their YouTube video collection here - http://www.youtube.com/user/canalcaza

If you are going to make objections, by all means feel free, but keep them fair. To complain that Mark is the "star" of his movies instead of the clients being so seems unfair to me, as surely other well-known personalities are also the "stars" of their movies.

What do people think about buffalo hunters who shoot them from a fair enough distance away to be well out of danger? As compared to those who approach closely. One has to be close to be charged. If shot from a distance, the hunter probably never would be charged.

In addition of course to MS's formula of approaching from head on, and not leaving an animal to suffer while stiffening up.

I would think that most Professional Hunters would get a Hunter as close as he could dependent on circumstances, to make a good shot. Shooting from vehicles on Dangerous Game is frowned upon.

Not pushing Buffalo after a first shot is just prudent behaviour, There are no heroics to running after Buffalo we have all done it, but most of us choose to keep the situation calm, and allow the hunter the satisfaction of knowing that he has done the job on his own.

Most of MS hunting has been done in TZ where country generally is open, not always esp in Masailand, and I think that each situation demands a varied response, if a Buffalo is visual and standing there by all means approach and allow your Hunter to finish him off.

Each to his own I guess and even then mistakes and accidents happen.

quote:

Originally posted by Russ B:
Most of MS hunting has been done in TZ where country generally is open, ....

I would think you mean - he has made most of videos in open country ...

Because that is where a video/film is far easier to make. As compared to thick country where the footage is often crap.

quote:

Originally posted by BenKK:
If you are going to make objections, by all means feel free, but keep them fair. To complain that Mark is the "star" of his movies instead of the clients being so seems unfair to me, as surely other well-known personalities are also the "stars" of their movies.

I'm not objecting to what MS does; just pointing out an obvious fact.

I own 7-8 of his DVDs and love watching them.

The man has balls as big as watermelons...

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
What do people think about buffalo hunters who shoot them from a fair enough distance away to be well out of danger? As compared to those who approach closely. One has to be close to be charged. If shot from a distance, the hunter probably never would be charged.

Once the animal is wounded I do my very best to kill it as quickly as possible. Why should I approach close and push it if I can just kill it from where I stand?

RussB:


TZ also has its fair share of dense thickets that can be had as anywhere else south of the Sahara. Many PHs and clients can confirm that.

For some strange reason I believe TZ also has the highest number of injuries and fatalities from wounded buffalo, very few of which took place on open ground.

The notorious thickets of Kitiangare would be the ultimate challenge for MS to burn some film.

Fujutupo

Of course TZ has its fair share of thickets and having hunted there as far back as 1986 I can confirm that, however a lot of hunting in TZ whether it is the Selous, Moyowosi, Maswa etc takes place in country that has reasonable visibility, most parts of Masailand being an exception where I don,t think I have ever shot a Buffalo over 30 yards.

Most of Southern Africa has fewer open areas and Buffalo spend most of their time in Jesse or Saga Saga thicket which as pointed out makes for poor quality movies, and some close calls.

Each country has exceptions to the norm.

quote:

Originally posted by Caracal:
Once the animal is wounded .... Why should I approach close and push it if I can just kill it from where I stand?

Whoever mentioned that "once the animal is wounded" ... most hunters like to approach the animal in the first place close enough to ensure the animal is not wounded only. Of course after the first shot, shots are taken to try to ensure the animal dies quickly or is anchored.

After reading all the MS 'debate', I have decided I want that new DVD. I wasn't interested in the 2 hippo DVDs, or the 'greatest' hunts thing. Haven't bought a Nitro Express movie since In the Face of Death.

But that new movie looks like it could be good.

I am surprised that no one has picked up on an earlier post abouty thrill seeking as the real sport.

Is not provoking a charge similar to hunting pigs, leopard, bear or cougar with dogs? What about Jeff Raan's hunting catle killing leopards with a truck and shotguns in open country? What about chasing hares or foxes on horseback?