I don't know the guy but I do enjoy his DVDs. I have never hunted with him or know anybody who has hunted with him. Until I hunt with him I am unwilling to make assumptions about him. He appears capable, I could have used him in August of '11. His DVDs are for entertainment and nothing more.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

I thought the above DVD wasn't all that bad.
His client all got great trophy's and Mark certainly is an enthusiastic PH.
Can't wait for Maximus's Safari report along with photo's of the H&H.

I didn't make it past the first hunt scene...

Is that not the exact point I just made?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Saeed:
WE never wait for any animal once it is shot.

We always follow it immediately and finish it off.[QUOTE]

+1

First I will say I have never cared much for hunting DVD's, just me, nothing against them.
That said, a friend has all the MS dvd's, if you watch them with the sound turned off, they are tolerable, try to listen to him...

I have wondered why Nascar and Formel1 race attracts people. Is it because they drive 160-200 miles pr/hour or what?. If they drove 4½ miles pr/hour would the race be as interesting?.

I presume one can adopt the thrill of hunting dangerous game the same way. There is a reason why it´s called "dangerous" and there is a reason why some folks pursue it. It is because there is a potential risk that will give a thrill/rush. If one shoots an elephant from a house. Would that have the same feeling as if shot in the open field face to face and nowhere to hide?.
I think people who have shot dangerous game should explain what drives them to it?. Why does DG hunts cost more among the PH operators?.

I feel a lot of those who critisize MS have the easiest political program in the world which narrows down to: " I am against".

How do you induce a charge by a wounded buff?
Do you just have to get close enough?

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
I have wondered why Nascar and Formel1 race attracts people. Is it because they drive 160-200 miles pr/hour or what?. If they drove 4½ miles pr/hour would the race be as interesting?.

I presume one can adopt the thrill of hunting dangerous game the same way. There is a reason why it´s called "dangerous" and there is a reason why some folks pursue it. It is because there is a potential risk that will give a thrill/rush. If one shoots an elephant from a house. Would that have the same feeling as if shot in the open field face to face and nowhere to hide?.
I think people who have shot dangerous game should explain what drives them to it?. Why does DG hunts cost more among the PH operators?.

I feel a lot of those who critisize MS have the easiest political program in the world which narrows down to: " I am against".

A F1 driver knows the limits which if not respected will most likely land him lengthwise in a box and quite frankly I don't see how it can compare with DG hunting.

MS is being criticized for unnecessarily goading or antagonizing a wounded animal, mainly buffalo when most of the time can be dispatched without too much fanfare, by the client.

The footage on his videos always seem to be out on a football field where chances of downing charge is nothing short of a guarantee. There is no doubt his shooting is second to none.

The kind of charge which does not come so easy is when tracking a wounded one in thick cover and comes for you without notice, mostly at less than twenty paces.
Rest assured that in such situations, where silence and stealth is the key to your surviving the odds,there will be no talking to the camera on "how he chooses to die".

I guess I'm preaching to the choir again.

quote:

By Todd:
How many times have we seen posts along the following lines: "I put in a Mark Sullivan DVD to see what all the fuss is about and after 5 minutes, turned it off as I couldn't stand the guy's attitude"? More often than not I'd say. From the inaccuracy of the MS bashing comments, I doubt many who are disparaging him have actually watched a single movie of his all the way through, let alone a sampling of most or all of them. These comments of intentionally wounding buffalo, no lion charges, not going after wounded animals in thick brush, simply are not backed up by video evidence. Quite the contrary. These comments are disproven with ease in every one of Mark's videos.

Todd we rarely disagree, and in most cases I'm lock step with you on most things but this case it seems to me that you may have only seen his latest films since you refer to all of them as DVDs, and it may be true that most of his videos have not been seen fully by his detractors but that is not the case with me. Even in the clip from “Use Enough Death” posted here he has cleaned up his act considerably if that clip indicates the total of that DVD. Still in that clip he couldn’t resist a couple of things from his earlier videos.

However, he couldn’t avoid at least one example with the first buffalo. At 1.45 in the clip of the first buffalo, where he admitted they could simply put the buffalo down, but said, (paraphrased)”we will walk up and let him decide how he wants to die”! Then walks straight at the standing buffalo till it starts a charge. The client, in this case, was too quick and put the buffalo down quite handily before Mark could get a shot off.

The inaccuracy you list above in bold print was referring to a post by me,(no lion charges) and your understanding on what I said is portrayed inaccurately!

What I was referring to was Marks habit of approaching a downed or wounded animal to insure he would get a charge so he could shoot the animal. Anyone who hunts lion and follows a wounded one up will likely get a charge. However what I said and still say is you will never see Mark Sullivan approach a wounded lion in the manner he does with buffalo or hippo to purposely get a charge. In fact he usually has his clients shoot the cats three or four times if they can be seen from the blind. This opinion is backed by his film “SIMBA” I do not consider my opinion on that FACT as an inaccuracy. He handles the cats with a lot more respect to their ability to get to him, and rightly so, because they are not buffalo or hippo, and Mark knows that fact well. As I said earlier, I don’t blame Mark for showing the cats more respect than he does the buffalo and hippo. They are certainly not a sure thing when trying to stop them in a charge. IOW, Mark knows who to mess with and who not to!

What I consider an inaccuracy is folks denying the fact that MS purposely harasses buffalo and hippo to get a charge so he can shoot them on film, as he puts it, “I let them choose how they want to die!”

I have his first four videos, and have watched them many times first to simply watch what I had purchased, then later to study the body language of the buffalo to learn as much as I could as to what would be coming next from the way the buffalo was acting. To that purpose MS videos are a perfect learning tool of what to look for in a close quarters of wounded buffalo. They are not a primer as to how to approach a wounded dangerous animal when you have the option to simply put the poor thing out of it’s misery!

This study value is because he gets ten times the charges of any PH I know other than those who specialize in elephant hunting where very close in work is needed, and charges are more often the results even when not wounded. That is simply not the case with buffalo.

Then in the clip provided on this thread of his latest video “Use Enough Death” the first leopard on bait instead of picking up the dead leopard and letting the client hold his leopard for the camera, as Mark always does, he gets the leopard up and holds it for the camera himself. He did the same thing to Allen Day with his leopard in the video “SUDDEN DEATH”. In all trophy clips in his videos, Mark is always closer to the camera than his client, who is seemingly pushed into the background. Mark always has to have first billing it seems.

If you have studied MS tapes you will see this narcissistic personality in all his pictures on film covers and in his websites and sales clips the still shots on trophies are most times with Mark behind the trophy as if he took them, and in many cases he did.

I’ve seen his picture holding Allen Day’s leopard on several of his adds, with Allen nowhere in sight! As we speak I’m looking at the cover of MS video “SUDDEN DEATH”, his third video with pictures of Mark holding Allen Day’s leopard with Allen nowhere in sight. On the video “MBOGO” his second vedio, and on the cover are pictures of Mark alone behind three cape buffalo that belonged to his clients. His first video was “BLACK DEATH” the first charge he filmed that started his long list of harassment charges, and that first on film almost cost him, because that buffalo almost got him!

In that film it was evident that he was trying to get the downed buffalo to get up and charge for the film because mark moved about in front of that buffalo a long time before the buffalo finally did get up, and Mark’s first shot didn’t do the job at ten feet, and the second shot was in the brain at less than 3 feet of the muzzle of his double, and Mark had to jump back to avoid the dead buffalo hitting him in the legs as it fell. The hunter who wounded that buffalo was on the hunting car, but that was not saying the client was not willing but because he was crippled, and had to shoot from the truck. However the truck could have simply been driven up close to the downed buffalo and let the client finish him, but that wouldn’t have made for an exciting super PH stopping a charge. The truck was stopped 75 yds from the buffalo in open country and Mark took his double and walked up to the buffalo, and it took almost a break dance to get the buff back on his feet to choose how he wanted to die!

No Todd every accusation I have made in regard to Mark Sullivan’s purposely forcing charges and hogging his clients thunder are absolutely true and can be pointed out in his own films!

.......................................................................

The painstaking recount provided by MacD37 is not 100% but 1000% !!

The contribution made by Fujotupu is also on the mark.

I too have gone to great lengths in analyzing footage from clips of: Death Rush, Death by the Ton,Death at My Feet, Shot to Death, Death on the Run, Sudden Death; I stopped there as there was no need to continue.

It was more than evident that MS is playing to the camera as most of the time it is he who is framed taking the shots on the charges at a ratio of almost 10:1 to the client.

There is also absolutely no doubt that these charges have been unnecessarily induced to provide the required and desired footage.

The hippo charges are mostly natural only because the hippo which has been rudely awakened from its shaded slumber is frantically trying to make its way back to the water; undoubtedly a dangerous position to find oneself in at the time and I would be somewhat hesitant in offering any criticism in that aspect. In such situations MS cannot know for sure if he is shooting a bull or a cow and given the circumstances does not really have much options either unless the bull was previously identified, the shooter/s well positioned in its most likely route to water then sent the trackers in to flush it out; not too difficult if you know what makes a hippo tick.

Has nobody found it strange that in the entire video footage the leading character or main player is always MS and the client, who should be in the forefront playing a lesser, almost inconspicuous role?

Entertaining they may well be, but to a somewhat naive viewer.

I woke up yesterday morning and thought to myself... what AR really needs is another Mark Sullivan thread!!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
I didn't make it past the first hunt scene...

Is that not the exact point I just made?

Yep!

quote:

If they drove 4½ miles pr/hour would the race be as interesting?.

If they have the loud noises, lots of beer and pretty race girls - yeah it would be OK. If they allow us to bet on the races it is interesting to an Australian!!

quote:

Originally posted by snowhound:
How do you induce a charge by a wounded buff?
Do you just have to get close enough?

Snowbound. The proper way to approach a downed or wounded cape buffalo is, if down, you approach from behind or from his back if on his side and put an insurance shot into the brain or spine. Any other approach is either a novice, or showmanship!

Mark always approaches from the front so the animal can see him encroaching into the buffalo’s defense zone leaving the animal no choice but to try to charge. So much for the letting him choose how he wants to die!

As someone above said, this seems to always be in an open ground terrain where Mark will get no surprise, and will get a straight on shot at very short range. Almost a guaranteed easy shot placement from being in line with the approaching animal. This shot is not nearly as difficult as one made on an animal heading to pass you to hit someone else. That shot, or one from tight bush where you have little time or opportunity to avoid hitting bush deflecting your shot. That is a shot that require some real skill.

Mark Sullivan doesn’t have to do his trick, or steal the thunder from his clients, it is just his “LOOK AT ME” personality. Most PHs I know or know of put their clients first, and know their job is the find good trophies for their clients, and if NECESSARY protect everyone in the party, not create charges.
.......................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Snowbound. The proper way to approach a downed or wounded cape buffalo is, if down, you approach from behind or from his back if on his side and put an insurance shot into the brain or spine. Any other approach is either a novice, or showmanship!

The proper way? According to who? All that matters is that the animal dies quickly without unnecessary suffering. I do not think the techniques MS occasionally uses (again watch the video I posted for a more typical representation of his usual PH/client relationship) prolong suffering. In fact as Cal pointed out in this thread many PHs let the animal bleed to death and then follow up after 30-40 minutes. Ask yourself which technique prolongs suffering.

Mac,

There are 3 of Marks videos that I haven't seen, but I refer to them as DVDs since VHS tapes are out now days. Yes, I had a couple of his videos on VHS in the past. As you mention, on Black Death, the hunter was crippled and could not walk up to the buff that started the whole thing for Mark. I have no problems with Mark walking up to it since the hunter could not. The way I remember it, Mark walked up from behind the Buff and it turned it's head, saw him, got up, and charged.

Yeah, of course, all the pictures of "MARK'S" videos have a picture of "MARK" on the cover. His videos are not "MARK SULLIVAN'S CLIENTS ..." . He has carved out a niche for himself with his DVDs. He is promoting himself and his safaris in the same way Safari Clasics are promoting themselves and booking hunts with Chifuti and the other safari companies they book for by doing the Tracks Across Africa TV show, the Boddington, and now Carter DVDs. Beasts of Legend has Ivan Carter on the front of the cover with his 600NE slung over his shoulder in the "African Carry" with animals in the background. Surely that isn't portraying Ivan as someone who might shoot an animal on Safari? Aaron's Global Hunter promotes Global Hunting Resources. Etc, etc. What's the point? No, actually, that is the point. African hunting DVDs promote the booking of safaris with the outfitters shown in the movie. As I've also stated previously, they do so with different styles. Ivan's are more along the lines of a journal in a realistic manner without all the bravado. Mark's have more drama as that has proven to work for him. As a matter of fact, Mark's videos were on the market long before Ivan's. Mark's videos promote the opportunity to hunt with Mark! Pure and simple. Of course his picture is on the front. Of course he promotes himself and his company. I just know why I'm supposed to begrudge him that.

You say Mark has cleaned up his act from the earlier videos. Isn't that what you guys have been wanting him to do? If so, what's the point? Or would you just rather him completely cease making money from the niche he has developed?

You say he has his clients shoot the cats a couple of times from the blind to make sure they are dead so there is no need for a follow up. I've seen that in his DVDs and an example was where the cat hung onto the bait with it's claws after being shot. Even Andrew Dawson stated in Boddington on Leopard when they do that "it's not good" so a second shot would be recommended. But again, surely you aren't saying on one hand that they should finish off the animal as quickly as possible and then on the other hand, state there is something wrong with finishing off the animal as quickly as possible. If so, what's the point?

Again, I've offered counter point to every point you've raised on Mark Sulivan's DVDs. Simply, this boils down to not liking his onscreen personality which I have repeatedly stated is arrogant and condescending. But the snipes and cheap shots about his hunting methods are very easily disproven when it comes to "intentionally wounding animals, excessive shots, no lion charges (no you are not the only one to misrepresent that particular statement), not going into heavy brush after wounded animals". I'll admit and have done so in past comments, that there are a few questionable scenes in his DVDs, but they really are few and far between and are mostly contained in his earlier productions. Again, you stated that it seems he has cleaned up his act. That's what you wanted, isn't it? Do you not allow for a guy to improve his offerings as he gains experience?

Look Mac, you and I mostly do see eye to eye on things. I see no reason for that not to continue. We simply disagree on Sullivan. I'm not necessarily a fan of his. It might seem that I am since I'm "well versed" in his DVDs. However, the reason I'm so well versed in his videos as well as the Safari Classics videos, and others, is that I've had 3 back surgeries over the last 14 years and have gone through a 6 month recovery period each surgery. The first 3 months of each of those recovery periods entailed much time laying in a bed searching for entertainment. I've read most of the Safari Press "Africana" books a couple of times through, watched all of Marks DVDs with the exception of 3, numerous times, all of the Safari Classics DVDs to the point that I can pretty much cite them line for line.

I get bored with the Sullivan DVDs now days so I'm not really meaning to come off as a fan of his, rather trying to ask that comments about his videos remain accurate. I AM a fan of Ivan Carter's as I think he is a first rate fellow and promotes conservation minded hunting as well as it can be to the uninformed masses. But even Carter has his moments of bravado on camera and I don't see him being called out in the same way. Want an example? Take a look at Boddington on Elephant where Ivan's client, who is wearing tin foil around his cap (WTF BTW?) shoots a large ele bull and as it falls on it's side, Ivan and the client run and jump up on the side of the elephant's head. Now while standing on the ele's head, the client attempts to shoot it again in the ear hole by placing the muzzle of the rifle next to his foot, and pulls the same trigger, and pulls the same trigger again, and again, before switching to the back trigger and almost blowing off his toes in the process. Want to talk about disrespect for the animal? Why did they need to jump up on its head to put in the coupe de grace? Why has no one made comment about that scene? I'll tell you why. Ivan is a nice guy and is well respected in the community and is allowed a bit more leeway. Mark is an A-hole personality wise and guys look for any and all ways possible to discredit him, even though all his clients are happy and to my knowledge, none of them have had issues with the way the conducted the safari operations.

quote:

Originally posted by Maximus Brutus:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Snowbound. The proper way to approach a downed or wounded cape buffalo is, if down, you approach from behind or from his back if on his side and put an insurance shot into the brain or spine. Any other approach is either a novice, or showmanship!

The proper way? According to who?

Assuming that your question is serious, the answer is: According to every, single, competent and self-respecting dangerous game PH in Africa.

The fundamental object of hunting Cape buffalo is to kill the Cape buffalo. GETTING KILLED BY THE CAPE BUFFALO IS OPTIONAL, BUT MOST SEEK TO AVOID IT BY SHOOTING STRAIGHT, AND FOLLOWING UP CAREFULLY!

One of my PHs (the then 64 year old Luis Pedro de Sa e Mello) once said to me, after I had asked him how truly dangerous it was to be a professional dangerous game hunter, as compared to other risky professions, such as Mafia boss, firefighter, amateur skier, police officer, womanizer, race car driver, etc.:

"Well, like any of them, it's pretty dangerous, and really dangerous when not done properly!"

quote:

Todd we rarely disagree, and in most cases I'm lock step with you on most things but this case it seems to me that you may have only seen his latest films since you refer to all of them as DVDs, and it may be true that most of his videos have not been seen fully by his detractors but that is not the case with me. Even in the clip from “Use Enough Death” posted here he has cleaned up his act considerably if that clip indicates the total of that DVD. Still in that clip he couldn’t resist a couple of things from his earlier videos.

However, he couldn’t avoid at least one example with the first buffalo. At 1.45 in the clip of the first buffalo, where he admitted they could simply put the buffalo down, but said, (paraphrased)”we will walk up and let him decide how he wants to die”! Then walks straight at the standing buffalo till it starts a charge. The client, in this case, was too quick and put the buffalo down quite handily before Mark could get a shot off.

The inaccuracy you list above in bold print was referring to a post by me,(no lion charges) and your understanding on what I said is portrayed inaccurately!

What I was referring to was Marks habit of approaching a downed or wounded animal to insure he would get a charge so he could shoot the animal. Anyone who hunts lion and follows a wounded one up will likely get a charge. However what I said and still say is you will never see Mark Sullivan approach a wounded lion in the manner he does with buffalo or hippo to purposely get a charge. In fact he usually has his clients shoot the cats three or four times if they can be seen from the blind. This opinion is backed by his film “SIMBA” I do not consider my opinion on that FACT as an inaccuracy. He handles the cats with a lot more respect to their ability to get to him, and rightly so, because they are not buffalo or hippo, and Mark knows that fact well. As I said earlier, I don’t blame Mark for showing the cats more respect than he does the buffalo and hippo. They are certainly not a sure thing when trying to stop them in a charge. IOW, Mark knows who to mess with and who not to!

What I consider an inaccuracy is folks denying the fact that MS purposely harasses buffalo and hippo to get a charge so he can shoot them on film, as he puts it, “I let them choose how they want to die!”

I have his first four videos, and have watched them many times first to simply watch what I had purchased, then later to study the body language of the buffalo to learn as much as I could as to what would be coming next from the way the buffalo was acting. To that purpose MS videos are a perfect learning tool of what to look for in a close quarters of wounded buffalo. They are not a primer as to how to approach a wounded dangerous animal when you have the option to simply put the poor thing out of it’s misery!

This study value is because he gets ten times the charges of any PH I know other than those who specialize in elephant hunting where very close in work is needed, and charges are more often the results even when not wounded. That is simply not the case with buffalo.

Then in the clip provided on this thread of his latest video “Use Enough Death” the first leopard on bait instead of picking up the dead leopard and letting the client hold his leopard for the camera, as Mark always does, he gets the leopard up and holds it for the camera himself. He did the same thing to Allen Day with his leopard in the video “SUDDEN DEATH”. In all trophy clips in his videos, Mark is always closer to the camera than his client, who is seemingly pushed into the background. Mark always has to have first billing it seems.

If you have studied MS tapes you will see this narcissistic personality in all his pictures on film covers and in his websites and sales clips the still shots on trophies are most times with Mark behind the trophy as if he took them, and in many cases he did.

I’ve seen his picture holding Allen Day’s leopard on several of his adds, with Allen nowhere in sight! As we speak I’m looking at the cover of MS video “SUDDEN DEATH”, his third video with pictures of Mark holding Allen Day’s leopard with Allen nowhere in sight. On the video “MBOGO” his second vedio, and on the cover are pictures of Mark alone behind three cape buffalo that belonged to his clients. His first video was “BLACK DEATH” the first charge he filmed that started his long list of harassment charges, and that first on film almost cost him, because that buffalo almost got him!

In that film it was evident that he was trying to get the downed buffalo to get up and charge for the film because mark moved about in front of that buffalo a long time before the buffalo finally did get up, and Mark’s first shot didn’t do the job at ten feet, and the second shot was in the brain at less than 3 feet of the muzzle of his double, and Mark had to jump back to avoid the dead buffalo hitting him in the legs as it fell. The hunter who wounded that buffalo was on the hunting car, but that was not saying the client was not willing but because he was crippled, and had to shoot from the truck. However the truck could have simply been driven up close to the downed buffalo and let the client finish him, but that wouldn’t have made for an exciting super PH stopping a charge. The truck was stopped 75 yds from the buffalo in open country and Mark took his double and walked up to the buffalo, and it took almost a break dance to get the buff back on his feet to choose how he wanted to die!

No Todd every accusation I have made in regard to Mark Sullivan’s purposely forcing charges and hogging his clients thunder are absolutely true and can be pointed out in his own films!

---------------------------------------
I couldn't have said it better.

This is possibly one of my first posts on a Mark Sullivan thread!

How is MS's style of provoking a charge less ethical than hunting leopard with dogs or any animal with dogs? How about hunting foxes on horseback? How about pigs - with dogs baling them - chewing their ears etc. Is it not the thrill of the chase that is the sport here?

In earlier times some eminent hunters chased lions on horse back until it was banned. They used dogs on lions too (JA Hunter)!

How many of the clients' game has MS really shot on film? Was this done just for making and selling DVDs or is this his style with most clients? Any hard numbers? Is it just with a few clients or is it like 50% or more of all his clients?

The problem I really have with the MS bashing is that not one criticism is from a former client! Here, on AR, there are many many unhappy clients who have reported on their PHs. A lot of trials by internet court have been witnessed here. But not one from a MS client complaint!

I wonder why?

This thread reminds me of the Zahir Mullah thread.

Those who support him keep coming up with excuse, and the rest find more unpalatable shortcomings.

Yep, keep digging.

You won't be able to convince REAL hunters and REAL PHs that what Mark Sullivan is doing is anything but to glorify himself at the expense of us all by dragging this noble sport into the the Hollywood gutter.

These threads entertain me because with each MS "supporter" post, Saeed's & Mac's
panties get twisted & knotted up more & more.

It happens every single time & can be as assured as betting that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow morning. They literally cannot help themselves. I haven't seen a single MS thread where these two can't help but post.

Predicable, but funny, shit.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
This is possibly one of my first posts on a Mark Sullivan thread!

How is MS's style of provoking a charge less ethical than hunting leopard with dogs or any animal with dogs? How about hunting foxes on horseback? How about pigs - with dogs baling them - chewing their ears etc. Is it not the thrill of the chase that is the sport here?

In earlier times some eminent hunters chased lions on horse back until it was banned. They used dogs on lions too (JA Hunter)!

How many of the clients' game has MS really shot on film? Was this done just for making and selling DVDs or is this his style with most clients? Any hard numbers? Is it just with a few clients or is it like 50% or more of all his clients?

The problem I really have with the MS bashing is that not one criticism is from a former client! Here, on AR, there are many many unhappy clients who have reported on their PHs. A lot of trials by internet court have been witnessed here. But not one from a MS client complaint!

I wonder why?

You wonder why?????

One reason could be that they have a big Leopard, and a 44inch buffalo in thier trophy room that cost them $50K + shipping, and taxidermy and they are reluctant to tell anyone that it is on his wall, but he didn’t kill it and his PH did! On the same note you never see a hunting report from anyone who has booked with Sullivan, and I suspect for the same reason.

I wonder why Mark Sullivan has experienced twenty times the number of buffalo charges of any other PH in the last 70 years! Could that be that he found a way to hunt and shoot buffalo and have someone pay him to do it?

.........................................................................Things that make you go HUMMMM?

quote:

Originally posted by Maximus Brutus:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
Snowbound. The proper way to approach a downed or wounded cape buffalo is, if down, you approach from behind or from his back if on his side and put an insurance shot into the brain or spine. Any other approach is either a novice, or showmanship!

The proper way? According to who? All that matters is that the animal dies quickly without unnecessary suffering. I do not think the techniques MS occasionally uses (again watch the video I posted for a more typical representation of his usual PH/client relationship) prolong suffering. In fact as Cal pointed out in this thread many PHs let the animal bleed to death and then follow up after 30-40 minutes. Ask yourself which technique prolongs suffering.

I watched this posted video. Started it-- quit in 2 minutes, the guy bugs me. Then restarted and watch the whole bloody thing. My opinion, this guy thinks he is a rockstar. I couldn't spend a week or more with him in the bush. I can see the clients in the video like him. That's good, he has to do something correctly I guess. Nice to call everyone 'bwana' -- guess he thinks he is Stewart Granger? To me that says he hasn't taken the time to learn the name of the client. It seems to me, he tries to get the client to rush shots too. Hard enough to make a shot in a pressure situation without the guide screeching and you. I notice the shots were what I think is a longer distance than they should be. Maybe it was the camera angle? Don't know. I was glad to see the shooters in most cases used a handy tree to shoot from. He obviously does not carry shooting sticks?
I can say now I have watched one of his videos-- no way I would hunt with him and I don't want to see another one either!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
This thread reminds me of the Zahir Mullah thread.

Those who support him keep coming up with excuse, and the rest find more unpalatable shortcomings.

Yep, keep digging.

You won't be able to convince REAL hunters and REAL PHs that what Mark Sullivan is doing is anything but to glorify himself at the expense of us all by dragging this noble sport into the the Hollywood gutter.

I suppose I'm not a REAL hunter then. Sure, he is glorifying himself. That's his business model. But I don't buy the theory that anything Mark Sullivan does "is at the expense of us all".

But then you said it Saeed; I'm not a REAL hunter. There we go again with the divisiveness among our ranks. That, I do believe is "at the expense of us all".

BTW, anyone want to address the scene where Ivan and his client jumped up on the side of the elephant's head to put in the finishing shot. You know, the scene from Boddington on Elephant where they did this and the client nearly shot his foot off in the process. Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

Gents:
I will wait to post here as the morphine, hydrocap, hydromorphone, valium, etc., would keep my comments a bit cloudy. You are all fine men and hunters. Some of what you write about Mark is true but I find it interesting that others, who do the same actions, are not in your sights. It seems it is stylish to attack the one whilst letting others pass by unscathed. Next week I will post a lengthy thread of Mark's DVD analysis. For now, though, it's time for more pills.
Cheers all.
Cal
PS. The doc took a pic of what all came out of my knee. I may post it with the hope you won't all go on the warpath. But if you do, well, I'll take more pills. LOL

Todd,

Please explain "divisive" to me in this sense.

We have practically ALL PH put together, hardly EVER get a buffalo charge.
While your hero seems to get it on demand.

Who is being the divisive character here?

How many hunts have you been on where you got charged by buffalo?

We might might have different ideas of what hunting is.

To me it really very simple as far as animals are concerned.

Kill your animal as quickly and as humanely as possible.

Grandstanding and repeating "let us see how he wants to die" is so obnoxious to me it defies any explanation.

The poor animals did not want to die. YOU have come to kill and eat.

You want to show how brave you are?

Leave that rifle behind, and go ask the buffalo how he wishes to die.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Mac, Take a look at Boddington on Elephant where Ivan's client, who is wearing tin foil around his cap (WTF BTW?) shoots a large ele bull and as it falls on it's side, Ivan and the client run and jump up on the side of the elephant's head. Now while standing on the ele's head, the client attempts to shoot it again in the ear hole by placing the muzzle of the rifle next to his foot, and pulls the same trigger, and pulls the same trigger again, and again, before switching to the back trigger and almost blowing off his toes in the process. Want to talk about disrespect for the animal? Why did they need to jump up on its head to put in the coupe de grace? Why has no one made comment about that scene?

You are most likely correct in your opinion why! I have never seen “Boddington On Elephant” so I haven’t seen that the thing you mention, but you know me well enough to know if I had seen it, I certainly would have commented on the shoddy class happening!

.....................................................................Over & out

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Todd,

Please explain "divisive" to me in this sense.

We have practically ALL PH put together, hardly EVER get a buffalo charge.
While your hero seems to get it on demand.

Who is being the divisive character here?

How many hunts have you been on where you got charged by buffalo?

We might might have different ideas of what hunting is.

To me it really very simple as far as animals are concerned.

Kill your animal as quickly and as humanely as possible.

Grandstanding and repeating "let us see how he wants to die" is so obnoxious to me it defies any explanation.

The poor animals did not want to die. YOU have come to kill and eat.

You want to show how brave you are?

Leave that rifle behind, and go ask the buffalo how he wishes to die.

Saeed,

Firstly, Mark Sullivan is NOT my hero. I never said that. I simply asked that whatever comments were made about him to be made accurately. You have repeatedly stated that he will not go into heavy brush after a wounded buffalo. I've cited several scenes from his DVDs where he did just that so your statement isn't accurate. Several guys have stated that his videos contain no lion charges. I've cited scenes from his videos also disputing that. And so on and so on.

As stated above, the only reason I'm so familiar with his DVDs (as well as others such as the Safari Classic DVDs) is that I spent quite a bit of time recovering from back surgeries where the only real entertainment I had was reading or watching movies. Not caring for most of what is on TV, I watched many of the hunting videos on the market, repeatedly! Would you like to hear about the Drury brothers and their tree stand deer hunting? I know of them pretty well also!!

The comment about divisiveness should be obvious. Saeed, you have stated many times that "This isn't hunting" or "That isn't hunting" here on this forum. It's a common thread in your comments as well as others. Most often, this boils down to regional differences in the way hunting is pursued. Guys from the western states dismiss tree stands for whitetail deer hunting when that is a staple and widespread method in the southeastern part of the US. The justification is always "well how will that method play with the antis?". The antis could care less. They don't know enough about hunting to recognize the difference between canned and fair chase hunting. To them, it's all just killing and cruel. Facts don't matter. Kind of like the MS comments don't matter concerning what is contained in his shows, just as long as he is put down because of his arrogant personality. The one thing the antis do have down pat however is that they are united in their attacks on our sport while we constantly divide ourselves into bow hunters, spot and stalk hunters, no tree stands, etc. Sullivan's methods being just another subset.

A year or so back Saeed, there was a young lady featured on a hunting show. Sorry but I don't remember the show at this time or who she hunted with. It was an outfitter in Zim IIRC. Being young and inexperienced, her PH was trying to help her identify the spot on an elephant's head to place the shot. While making a practice approach, not on the ele she shot, but simply a practice approach, the PH shined a laser pointer on the ele's head to show her where to shoot. I specifically remember you stating "that isn't hunting". Instead of accepting the fact that a young person was entering the sport, which we really need more of to preserve our rights going forward, several guys picked up on your comments and joined in with the "that's not hunting" mantra. Personally, I was glad to see her become a hunter rather than fall in with the "Planet in crisis" crowd so often cited by today's young people.

I'll say it again! This constant bashing of Mark Sullivan is due to his obnoxious, arrogant, and condescending personality on screen. It has less to do with his actual conduct of the hunt. I've not seen a single cat hunt on his DVDs that contain anything questionable. I've cited several buffalo charges on his DVDs that don't appear to have been goaded in any way but you don't respond to those. I've cited scenes where he and the client go into the thick stuff after wounded buff, cited scenes where he alone went in after leopard in grass over head high and thick enough that visibility is only a few feet. Whatever his faults, cowardliness isn't one of them. Stating otherwise is not accurate.

We like Ivan but we don't like Mark. Otherwise, let's hear some comments about Ivan and his client running to and jumping up onto the elephant's head and shooting straight down into the ear hole by his client, repeatedly pulling the front trigger again and again before realizing what he was doing and nearly shooting his toe off when he finally did get the gun to fire, all the while the client was wearing tin foil around the base of his cap. This scene is contained in Boddington on Elephant. To me, this shows disrespect for the animal by jumping up on its head right after being shot, and questionable capabilities of the client by pulling the same trigger repeatedly, displaying strange behavior with the tin foil in the first place. Why is that HUNTING and Mark's videos NOT HUNTING? Why are Mark's clients, who evidently to a man are happy with their hunts, called idiots but Ivan's client here in this scene is just fine and referred to on the DVD as being "A man who knows his way around a double rifle"? Really? Seems to me he was pretty confused about which trigger to be pulling, again, while standing on the ele's head and shooting straight down at his foot. Considering how elephant hunting videos play with the uninformed masses in the first place, how do you think this scene plays with them? Does it portray us REAL hunters in a good light? Why no comments about that scene? Ever? Not one?

Ivan, I'm very sorry for bringing this up again and again on this thread. I think you're a good guy and speak well for hunting as conservation, especially with your Face Book quotes. But that scene WAS questionable and if I'm going to ask guys to keep their comments fair and accurate, I have to do so myself.

Todd,

There might have been ONE questionable incident in Ivan's videos.

Mark Sullivan's video contnuouslu show him glorifying himself at the expense of his paying clients.

quote:

Originally posted by Scottyboy:
These threads entertain me because with each MS "supporter" post, Saeed's & Mac's
panties get twisted & knotted up more & more.

It happens every single time & can be as assured as betting that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow morning. They literally cannot help themselves. I haven't seen a single MS thread where these two can't help but post.

Predicable, but funny, shit.

+1

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Todd,

There might have been ONE questionable incident in Ivan's videos.

Mark Sullivan's video contnuouslu show him glorifying himself at the expense of his paying clients.

Saeed,

The part in red above. Agreed. Of course he does. He is promoting himself and his safaris inorder to book future clients. He is promoting hunting with Mark Sullivan for the guys who may be interested in doing so. That's his business model. I'm just not sure why I'm supposed to be upset about him promoting his business, albiet in a way different than I would do it if I were an outfitter / PH.

The part in bold above. I'm not so sure about. In fact, I disagree. Simply because anyone who hunts with him knows exactly what to expect at this point. If they book with him, they are getting what they want. This is evidenced by the fact that everyone who has hunted with him has good things to say about him. And the fellow I know who has hunted with him most certainly is a REAL hunter. That being said, how can it be "at the expense of his paying clients"? "At the expense of his paying clients" implies they are getting something other than what is represented to them.

To the Ivan comment, I can cite several scenes where Ivan shoots as well as the client when the client clearly has the ability to get another shot in before the animal is in danger of getting out of control. Same with Andrew Dawson. Why are there no comments about those scenes along the lines of "shooting the clients animals for them"? Again, simply because Ivan and Andrew are not obnoxious and arrogant on screen in the same manner as Mark Sullivan so they are therefore given more of a pass.

This boils down to Mark Sullivan's personality and the many fellow's who find his personality objectionable. And because of that, inaccurate statements about his hunting techniques go unchallenged when many of the very same things are done by other, more respected PHs. Again, I would just like to see the comments be accurate. Nothing more.

Todd,

When I go hunting, I like to shoot my own animals.

I don't want the so called PH to shoot them for me.

Imagine going out to dinner, and paying a premium price for some choice dish, and the cook sits on your table and eats it.

Personally, I find Mark Sullivan to be an asshole, but NOT because he doesn't finish wounded animals at the first offered opportunity rather than delaying it for dramatic effect.

That I find unethical.

Just my opinion, and likely worth every cent you paid for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Todd,

When I go hunting, I like to shoot my own animals.

I don't want the so called PH to shoot them for me.

Imagine going out to dinner, and paying a premium price for some choice dish, and the cook sits on your table and eats it.

Saeed, how many examples of MS shooting his client's animals did you see in the video I posted?

This MS debate is really going to another level.

Just a couple of issues to set the record straight. The reason most experienced African PH's allow a waiting time before following up is that often Buffalo will die within a short period of time if not pushed. I have seen and I am sure it is the case on a lot of Buffalo shot with MS, the animal adrenalin is up and they simply won't die. Left alone for a bit they will lie down stiffen and die.

Marks methods of hunting are not typical of a Professional that was raised in Africa and did his apprenticeship under an experinced African PH.

However as pointed out he is popular and has his own unique style of hunting, it is therefore difficult to be to critical.

PS. Out of the hospital and on the mend. Monday I will begin my minute by minute study of Mark's films as to who shot and how many shot, charges and if induced or not, etc. This will be done in a factual manner to set the facts straight, not to argue opinions, or start the pissing contests again.

Dear cal,

please:

a.)
I wish you an quick and pain-less recover.

b.)
If I can help aou in any way, please let me know.

Best wishes.

Bock, II

When I got charged by a buff the MS videos really helped. I knew what was happening and wasn't frozen in suprise. I knew what I had to do and did it. My PH's were no help, by the way, the buff was already past them. They shot him 8 times to no effect. My last shot put him down for good, the only head shot. He charged when he was shot the first time, he didn't run off, he just charged. If MS had been my PH I wouldn't have had to make that last shot....Tom

I had spoken with many people, witch have the same opinion.
Yes, it help to see and learn from his videos.

quote:

Originally posted by Maximus Brutus:
The proper way? According to who? All that matters is that the animal dies quickly without unnecessary suffering. I do not think the techniques MS occasionally uses (again watch the video I posted for a more typical representation of his usual PH/client relationship) prolong suffering.

How do you accurately gauge this 'suffering' that you say is occurring, when a PH leaves an animal to bleed-out? When we start to talk pain and suffering we lead ourselves right into the arguments of the anti-hunters...

We can't reliably. All we have is time.

quote:

Originally posted by Maximus Brutus:
We can't reliably. All we have is time.

We cant at all really - 'suffering' is a human emotion.

quote:

Originally posted by Maximus Brutus:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Todd,

When I go hunting, I like to shoot my own animals.

I don't want the so called PH to shoot them for me.

Imagine going out to dinner, and paying a premium price for some choice dish, and the cook sits on your table and eats it.

Saeed, how many examples of MS shooting his client's animals did you see in the video I posted?

Every single buffalo charge that I have seen was shot by him.

Yes I understand that, but how many in the video I posted? I believe the video is a far more accurate reflection of the hunting experience with MS.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by snowhound:
How do you induce a charge by a wounded buff?
Do you just have to get close enough?

Snowbound. The proper way to approach a downed or wounded cape buffalo is, if down, you approach from behind or from his back if on his side and put an insurance shot into the brain or spine. Any other approach is either a novice, or showmanship!

Mark always approaches from the front so the animal can see him encroaching into the buffalo’s defense zone leaving the animal no choice but to try to charge. So much for the letting him choose how he wants to die!

As someone above said, this seems to always be in an open ground terrain where Mark will get no surprise, and will get a straight on shot at very short range. Almost a guaranteed easy shot placement from being in line with the approaching animal. This shot is not nearly as difficult as one made on an animal heading to pass you to hit someone else. That shot, or one from tight bush where you have little time or opportunity to avoid hitting bush deflecting your shot. That is a shot that require some real skill.

Mark Sullivan doesn’t have to do his trick, or steal the thunder from his clients, it is just his “LOOK AT ME” personality. Most PHs I know or know of put their clients first, and know their job is the find good trophies for their clients, and if NECESSARY protect everyone in the party, not create charges.
.......................................................................

MS does approach buffalo to set up the charge situation. But in that famous charge from Africas Black Death, he approaches from behind the buffalo.
In that particular charge, I think MS was surprised by what happened.
Watch that video again; that buff' was shot 5-6 times and went down, out in the open. It appeared to be dead.
So they drove up, MS got out and started walking up to it. He was pretty close before the buffalo showed any signs of life, and then it turned, rose up and it was VERY MUCH ALIVE!
It was game on then!

I've got quite a few of his videos. Haven't bought one since "In the Face of Death", but this new video looks pretty interesting. I may get it.