I really had to think twice before posting this tonight, especially given the slating Mark gets on these forums by some.

However, I thought it would be useful if people understood what really happens on Mark's safaris, instead of judging him solely on the unrepresentative but entertaining footage shown on his DVDs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsJvBBJttDo

The first guy is Ed Woodlee he is a ol frind from San Antonio (he used to own Ranger American)..which he is long since passed '97 or 98 I think. He was a super guy--as for Mark most of the people that hunt with him have enjoyed it.

Ed

I'm not an expert, and don't play one on TV, but on that first buff there was a perfectly open finishing shot available but they "let it decide how it wanted to die" instead of finishing it, for which my Grandfather would have hided me with a locust limb...

And isn't a lion with 5 females almost the definition of a "pride lion"?? I guess maybe they checked to make sure there were no young elsewhere...

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
I'm not an expert, and don't play one on TV, but on that first buff there was a perfectly open finishing shot available but they "let it decide how it wanted to die" instead of finishing it, for which my Grandfather would have hided me with a locust limb...

And isn't a lion with 5 females almost the definition of a "pride lion"?? I guess maybe they checked to make sure there were no young elsewhere...

.........................................................................

Have you just proved something?

I think I have just proved that Mark's clients shoot their animals, not Mark. Nothing unusual in that at all, but he is constantly accused of doing all the shooting himself.

quote:

Originally posted by Maximus Brutus:
I think I have just proved that Mark's clients shoot their animals, not Mark. Nothing unusual in that at all, but he is constantly accused of doing all the shooting himself.

Actually, I'd say you've proved that in that particular instance the client shot the animal for himself (badly) and you've also proved that MS in that particular instance at the very least had the opportunity to put the wounded animal out of his misery in a timely and professional manner and deliberately failed to do so.

Most, if not all professional, Professional Hunters would consider that latter action to be extremely unprofessional.

Mark is a good shot....I will give him that, but this "let them choose how to die" bullshit really makes me wonder if he is running a prolonged high fever..

There is no justification in prolonging an animals suffering to prove his slightly perverse ego bullshit idea..!

I watched the beginning of the film.

That buffalo which got wounded would have been dead looooong before they decided to kill it.

I suspect that far more people dream of hunting buffalo than actually do it. For these people the closest they will get to buffalo is how far their chair is from the television.

What many people do not realize is that buffalo charges are uncommon. Most wounded buffalo will run off.

If it is your goal to produce films of buffalo charges, you must produce a lot of wounded buffalo. As such, the goal of Sullivan's hunts seem to be geared----not to kill the animals cleanly----but to produce wounded buffalo.

A PH can do things to create more wounded animals--have clients take questionable shots, etc.

It is my strong suspicion that Sullivan's biggest fans are those with little or no experience hunting buffalo. Those with experience are sickened by it.

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
Mark is a good shot....I will give him that, but this "let them choose how to die" bullshit really makes me wonder if he is running a prolonged high fever..

There is no justification in prolonging an animals suffering to prove his slightly perverse ego bullshit idea..!

well said sir.

quote:

Originally posted by Pondoro:
Mark is a good shot....I will give him that, but this "let them choose how to die" bullshit really makes me wonder if he is running a prolonged high fever..

There is no justification in prolonging an animals suffering to prove his slightly perverse ego bullshit idea..!

+2

Just curious, gents, but it seems to me the animal's suffering is prolonged by the PHs who wait 1/2 hour to 45 minutes to "let the animal stiffen up" before the tracking begins. This is a common practice--not due to fear of a charge--but so the animal is not full of flight and runs off. Mark's actions, while a bit theatrical, put a quicker end to the wounded critter than the above stated method.
Cheers, mates.
Cal
PS. Out of the hospital and on the mend. Monday I will begin my minute by minute study of Mark's films as to who shot and how many shot, charges and if induced or not, etc. This will be done in a factual manner to set the facts straight, not to argue opinions, or start the pissing contests again.

When I got charged by a buff the MS videos really helped. I knew what was happening and wasn't frozen in suprise. I knew what I had to do and did it. My PH's were no help, by the way, the buff was already past them. They shot him 8 times to no effect. My last shot put him down for good, the only head shot. He charged when he was shot the first time, he didn't run off, he just charged. If MS had been my PH I wouldn't have had to make that last shot....Tom

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Just curious, gents, but it seems to me the animal's suffering is prolonged by the PHs who wait 1/2 hour to 45 minutes to "let the animal stiffen up" before the tracking begins. This is a common practice--not due to fear of a charge--but so the animal is not full of flight and runs off. Mark's actions, while a bit theatrical, put a quicker end to the wounded critter than the above stated method.
Cheers, mates.
Cal
PS. Out of the hospital and on the mend. Monday I will begin my minute by minute study of Mark's films as to who shot and how many shot, charges and if induced or not, etc. This will be done in a factual manner to set the facts straight, not to argue opinions, or start the pissing contests again.

Well said Cal

I wish you a speedy recovery.

Cal Pappas - good post.

Maximus Brutus ~ Thanks for posting the DVD i have not see this one. I think i will have to watch it again as i missed a bunch of thing it seems. I probably will watch this while playing a on line poker tournament to night.

Trapper2 ~ AS you said there is something one can learn from the MS DVD and it pas off if you pay attention to detail. I glad it helped you out to save the day.

505Ed ~ as you noted this is a old DVD of Mark Sullivan's and had some great footage.

Jefffive ~ The Mark Sullivan trade mark is "Let it decide how it wants to die" and it is known world wide just like Buick, GMC, VW, Coke & Pespi.

Jefffive ~ Using new implemented standards for Tanzania in an old DVD is out of line. That would be like using current cars safety standards on a model T.

Shakari ~ It is easy to roast Mark Sullivan while he has many of his hunts filmed to make these DVD. What about the PH who do not shoot clients animals and they are never recovered do to poor client shooting. Mark Sullivan is stuck in no mans land the way i see it if he shoot he is killing his clients animals or if he does not shoot he is letting the animal suffer. there is no in between room from reading here. Most of the time the PH never takes a rifle on plains game stalks and therefore a poor shot by the hunter on an animal will cause the animals to suffer in your view.
We have read about 2 to 3 day follow up by PH on clients poor shooting, however in Mark Sullivan DVD the followup is quick and the animals dispatched by either the hunter or Mark Sullivan in a timely sequence. The few seconds for the stop to make a statement to the cameraman for is DVD is no worse (in my eye quicker) than the PH or hunter waiting 1 to 2 hours for the animals to stiffen up.

Saeed ~ i know you are not a Mark Sullivan fan, however what amount of time is wasted on his videos followup that are not on your cape buffalo followup? Does your PH shoot or do you do the shooting? Again if you PH did not shoot your wounded Cape Buffalo why not?

JohnDL ~ While i think you are spot on on your Cape Buffalo hunting comments. I have only taken the opportunity to go after 2 one was shot at about 35 yards and took 2 steps want went down and the other was at about 100 yards where the PH also shot and we tracked it for about 1 mile and walked up to it in a pile of bushes about 15 feet away and could barely see it in the shadows and proceeded to shoot until it went down. Would i do it again, yes i will in the future. Now shooting the CB in the dark bushes taking questionable shots or taking a open standing broad sided field shot at 100 yards a questionable shot. By the way my shot went through both lungs. PH shot was a little further back.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana338:

Shakari ~ It is easy to roast Mark Sullivan while he has many of his hunts filmed to make these DVD.

I wasn't aware I had roasted him. All I did was point out that he had the opportunity to put the animal out of it's misery in a timely & professional manner but chose not to do so & I doubt there's a single PH that posts here that would disagree with that statement.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana338:

Shakari ~ It is easy to roast Mark Sullivan while he has many of his hunts filmed to make these DVD.

quote:

by Shakari
I wasn't aware I had roasted him. All I did was point out that he had the opportunity to put the animal out of it's misery in a timely & professional manner but chose not to do so & I doubt there's a single PH that posts here that would disagree with that statement.

No PH or none of the majority of experienced client buffalo hunters would disagree with your post either Steve!

quote:

Originally posted by JohnDL:
I suspect that far more people dream of hunting buffalo than actually do it. For these people the closest they will get to buffalo is how far their chair is from the television.

What many people do not realize is that buffalo charges are uncommon. Most wounded buffalo will run off.

Apparently not uncommon in Sullivan’s concessions

quote:

by John
If it is your goal to produce films of buffalo charges, you must produce a lot of wounded buffalo. As such, the goal of Sullivan's hunts seems to be geared----not to kill the animals cleanly----but to produce wounded buffalo.

A PH can do things to create more wounded animals--have clients take questionable shots, etc.

It is my strong suspicion that Sullivan's biggest fans are those with little or no experience hunting buffalo. Those with experience are sickened by it.

That is my opinion as well, John!

quote:

Originally posted by Tapper2:
When I got charged by a buff the MS videos really helped. I knew what was happening and wasn't frozen in suprise. I knew what I had to do and did it. ...Tom

As I’ve always said the above is the only value in a MS film! They are prefect for studying the body language of cape buffalo, so you know what their intention is when the get ready to charge you by the way they act! It is certain that MS knows how to read it! That part of his films is value for money spent. However that has never been my objection to his films, knowing how or when to stop a charge has nothing to do with purposely causing a charge just so he can shoot it himself for the film is what I object to!

Sorry Mac. I did a disservice to the vast majority of ordinary/non professional hunters here by not mentioning that fact.

I vowed to stay out of these forever. I can't resist.

I think there is entirely too much MS bashing which is largely based on urban legend. Every single person I have ever met that knows him and/or has hunted with him has good things to say.

His style of hunting is different. He chooses to go after a wounded buff straight away. I have zero problem with that. However, when he has the chance to put the buff down quickly, they are antagonized in to charging. THAT is the thing I have a problem with.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I vowed to stay out of these forever. I can't resist.

His style of hunting is different. He chooses to go after a wounded buff straight away. I have zero problem with that. However, when he has the chance to put the buff down quickly, they are antagonized in to charging. THAT is the thing I have a problem with.

Larry that is what everyone I've read is talking about. The antagonizing of the wounded buffalo to get a charge so HE can shoot it for the film, instead of just having his client finish him off instantly! It just rings of a selfish personality to me!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
The antagonizing of the wounded buffalo to get a charge so HE can shoot it for the film, instead of just having his client finish him off instantly! It just rings of a selfish personality to me!

Did you watch the video I posted?

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana338:
Cal Pappas - good post.

Maximus Brutus ~ Thanks for posting the DVD i have not see this one. I think i will have to watch it again as i missed a bunch of thing it seems. I probably will watch this while playing a on line poker tournament to night.

Trapper2 ~ AS you said there is something one can learn from the MS DVD and it pas off if you pay attention to detail. I glad it helped you out to save the day.

505Ed ~ as you noted this is a old DVD of Mark Sullivan's and had some great footage.

Jefffive ~ The Mark Sullivan trade mark is "Let it decide how it wants to die" and it is known world wide just like Buick, GMC, VW, Coke & Pespi.

Jefffive ~ Using new implemented standards for Tanzania in an old DVD is out of line. That would be like using current cars safety standards on a model T.

Shakari ~ It is easy to roast Mark Sullivan while he has many of his hunts filmed to make these DVD. What about the PH who do not shoot clients animals and they are never recovered do to poor client shooting. Mark Sullivan is stuck in no mans land the way i see it if he shoot he is killing his clients animals or if he does not shoot he is letting the animal suffer. there is no in between room from reading here. Most of the time the PH never takes a rifle on plains game stalks and therefore a poor shot by the hunter on an animal will cause the animals to suffer in your view.
We have read about 2 to 3 day follow up by PH on clients poor shooting, however in Mark Sullivan DVD the followup is quick and the animals dispatched by either the hunter or Mark Sullivan in a timely sequence. The few seconds for the stop to make a statement to the cameraman for is DVD is no worse (in my eye quicker) than the PH or hunter waiting 1 to 2 hours for the animals to stiffen up.

Saeed ~ i know you are not a Mark Sullivan fan, however what amount of time is wasted on his videos followup that are not on your cape buffalo followup? Does your PH shoot or do you do the shooting? Again if you PH did not shoot your wounded Cape Buffalo why not?

JohnDL ~ While i think you are spot on on your Cape Buffalo hunting comments. I have only taken the opportunity to go after 2 one was shot at about 35 yards and took 2 steps want went down and the other was at about 100 yards where the PH also shot and we tracked it for about 1 mile and walked up to it in a pile of bushes about 15 feet away and could barely see it in the shadows and proceeded to shoot until it went down. Would i do it again, yes i will in the future. Now shooting the CB in the dark bushes taking questionable shots or taking a open standing broad sided field shot at 100 yards a questionable shot. By the way my shot went through both lungs. PH shot was a little further back.

WE never wait for any animal once it is shot.

We always follow it immediately and finish it off.

My PHs have shot at animals I have wounded, on very rare occassions, where I was not in a position to finish them off.

I go and hunt because I enjoy hunting.

I don't go hunting because I am on an ego trip glorifying myself.

Now, I'm new and don't know Mark from Adam, but I watched the whole thing and I thought it was a good hunting video, yes the choose your way to die was way off in left field but other then that, I liked the film. Is this guy known for being a douchbag?

quote:

Originally posted by Alaskaman11:
Now, I'm new and don't know Mark from Adam, but I watched the whole thing and I thought it was a good hunting video, yes the choose your way to die was way off in left field but other then that, I liked the film. Is this guy known for being a douchbag?

Mark Sullivan is the only PH who induces buffalo charges to get his 15 seconds of fame on film.

He has had more charges than dozens of PHs who have been hunting dangerous game for hundreds of years between them.

From the hundreds of buffalo I have seen shot, we have never had a single charge!

A PH job is to see that his clients hunts and kills his own animals.

Mark Sullivan seems to gloat in shooting his clients animals.

So if you wish to hunt buffalo and kill your own, avoid hunting with Mark Sullivan.

It is evident to everyone but a few that the guys clients are mostly fat and out of shape fellows who could barely do any walking or anything.Not only are they fat and lazy clients but I doubt they earned the funds to go hunting because if they did I think they would want to shoot the animals themselves for one thing.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
Just curious, gents, but it seems to me the animal's suffering is prolonged by the PHs who wait 1/2 hour to 45 minutes to "let the animal stiffen up" before the tracking begins. This is a common practice--not due to fear of a charge--but so the animal is not full of flight and runs off. Mark's actions, while a bit theatrical, put a quicker end to the wounded critter than the above stated method.
Cheers, mates.
Cal
PS. Out of the hospital and on the mend. Monday I will begin my minute by minute study of Mark's films as to who shot and how many shot, charges and if induced or not, etc. This will be done in a factual manner to set the facts straight, not to argue opinions, or start the pissing contests again.

An uncommonly reasonable post, Cal. We all wish you a speedy recovery.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:

quote:

Originally posted by JohnDL:
I suspect that far more people dream of hunting buffalo than actually do it. For these people the closest they will get to buffalo is how far their chair is from the television.

What many people do not realize is that buffalo charges are uncommon. Most wounded buffalo will run off.

Apparently not uncommon in Sullivan’s concessions

It's not like you, Mac, to inject a canard of that sort into your posts. Rumors and gossip are no substitute for facts when challenging a man's character.

Shootaway, I guessed you missed the multiple episodes of the "fat guy who can barely walk" with Ivan Carter?? I was told he won a lotto or something. Ivan bragged about how great a hunter and shot the client was, total BS!!!!
The statement you made about Mark Sullivan applies to MANY of the episodes of african hunting on tv with many popular PH's. If a ph was able to weed out the fat, out of shape, trust guys I'm guessing they would all be out of work and hungry.
You may not like Mark Sullivan but your remark was totally uncalled for!

Age and physical attributes have nothing to do with it.

Many of our fellow hunters are not in the best physical condition as when they were younger. That should not stop them enjoying going out on safari and having fun.

Many of us are going that way faster than we had hoped for. And I am hoping it is not going to stop us enjoying our hunts.

Each has to hunt within his own capability of course.

quote:

Originally posted by sevenmagltd.:
Shootaway, I guessed you missed the multiple episodes of the "fat guy who can barely walk" with Ivan Carter?? I was told he won a lotto or something. Ivan bragged about how great a hunter and shot the client was, total BS!!!!
The statement you made about Mark Sullivan applies to MANY of the episodes of african hunting on tv with many popular PH's. If a ph was able to weed out the fat, out of shape, trust guys I'm guessing they would all be out of work and hungry.
You may not like Mark Sullivan but your remark was totally uncalled for!

+1

I too was very quick to judge MS as an "idiot" several years ago. However having seen a few of his movies I did felt not everything stands out completely misplaced in MS observations in regarding to "hunting".
To begin with it most be up to the client really. MS should give his clients a choice of if they want to become exposed to a "charge" from a healthy(not wounded) animal. That would natually be something no insurance company will vouch for. You live or die with that risk. From an ethical point of view that animals ought to be downed as soon as the first situation arise if wounded. Where I become divided with Mark is like when hippohunting. I haven´t shot a hippo yet, but it seems to me the biggest challenge in hippohunting is get some blacks chased into the river where the dead hippo is floating. Shooting a hippo that has his primetime in the water does not to me represent "hunting"...just shooting. Mark does try atleast to make a hunt out of hippos by get them out of the water.
If I should really point out if there was a thing I should dislike about his movies is that he talks simply too much instead of let hunting become hunting.

Cal and Kim, you guys are spot on, again. It's amazing how guys normally known for rational and accurate opinions go completely off the farm when Mark Sullivan's name is simply mentioned. Unless they are watching a completely different set of DVDs than I've seen concerning MS, these bashing comments don't reflect reality.

It rained here at my home today and as a result, I watched a few African hunting DVDs. I noticed Andrew Dawson shooting immediately after the client on more than one occasion during the Boddington on Buffalo productions. I noticed Andrew shooting a buffalo on B.O.B. 2 where the buffalo was standing in the distance, holding his ground while the client reloaded his rifle. It wasn't running off and the client was back in action in a matter of seconds. Does Andrew Dawson "shoot his clients animals for them"? I noticed Ivan Carter shooting simultaneously with his client on a charging buffalo at close range in the opening trailer on Beast of Legend. I watched Ivan Carter shoot Steve Bindon's wounded lion by himself as it charged him on follow up with a double rifle, escaping by the skin of his teeth. Does Ivan Carter "shoot his clients animals for them"? I could go on with other examples but I won't as it serves no purpose. What it does show is PH's who are much more popular and respected shooting when necessary to keep a wounded dangerous animal under control. With very few exceptions, that's also what I see Mark Sullivan doing in his DVDs. The comment about taking the lion out of a pride in the posted video is certainly disingenuous as the hunt took place in the late 90's, long before discussion and adoption of the huntable lion definition. It would not be hard to find video hunts of the same practice by more highly regarded PHs filmed during the same timeframe although I doubt they would be accompanied by the same type of cheap shot comments.

How many times have we seen posts along the following lines: "I put in a Mark Sullivan DVD to see what all the fuss is about and after 5 minutes, turned it off as I couldn't stand the guy's attitude"? More often than not I'd say. From the inaccuracy of the MS bashing comments, I doubt many who are disparaging him have actually watched a single movie of his all the way through, let alone a sampling of most or all of them. These comments of intentionally wounding buffalo, no lion charges, not going after wounded animals in thick brush, simply are not backed up by video evidence. Quite the contrary. These comments are disproven with ease in every one of Mark's videos.

What this boils down to is personality. Mark comes across as arrogant and often condescending to his clients on camera. Because of that, I wound't want to hunt with him I don't believe. I honestly can't say he is a positive spokesman for our sport because of his bravado, but then again, even the most ethical hunting productions such as those done by Safari Classics, are not viewed in a positive light by the antis. In fact, I'd say the antis don't know enough about hunting to realize there is a difference between canned hunting, poaching, commercial hunting for fur, and the conservation minded hunting we espouse here on AR. To them, it's all killing and cruel. Because of that, this argument is really among ourselves, not how MS makes us appear to the antis.

That being said, I really wish the comments could be kept accurate and fair concerning MS. His clients like him. That seems clear. How many outfitters do we read about on AR that have stiffed clients or seriously under-delivered? Take a quick look at the Mulla thread now ongoing. Take a look at the thread about misrepresenting pictures of animals and concessions where the last buffalo seen in the area was years prior to the guy's hunt now ongoing. How many others of similar nature? How many threads are contained on AR about a client complaining of a hunt with Mark Sullivan? None that I know of. That would suggest to me that the man is honest in his dealings with clients. It would suggest that he is delivering what his clients are expecting. Every time that little "inconvenient truth" is pointed out, the client's character is quickly attacked. REALLY? Every client?

Come on guys, if you don't like the man or his onscreen persona, saying so is understandable. Making false accusations about the man (as evidenced by the actual viewing of his DVDs) when he seems to deliver what his clients want and does so without a single known accusation of misrepresentation, failure to provide a quality safari, failure to pay staff, leaving a client stranded, not enough food or clean water in camp, etc, etc, etc as we so often hear about by dodgy operators in the industry, just seems to be in poor taste and frankly out of character by the guys doing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsJvBBJttDo[/QUOTE]

I thought the above DVD wasn't all that bad.
His client all got great trophy's and Mark certainly is an enthusiastic PH.
Can't wait for Maximus's Safari report along with photo's of the H&H.

Good post Todd

Unfortunately there appears to be a small group of people who have made their mind up about MS and won't let facts get in the way of a good story. How many of them actually watched the whole video I posted? Yes it is quite long, but I don't see any evidence of MS "shooting all his clients' animals". I see happy clients enjoying a close relationship with their PH with plenty of smiles all round. That's just the way it should be.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Can't wait for Maximus's Safari report along with photo's of the H&H.

You can count on it ozhunter

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsJvBBJttDo

I thought the above DVD wasn't all that bad.
His client all got great trophy's and Mark certainly is an enthusiastic PH.
Can't wait for Maximus's Safari report along with photo's of the H&H.[/QUOTE]

Maximus Brutus is not hungting with Mark Sullivan.

He is hunting with a true PH, who respects his animals as much as he respects his clients

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

I thought the above DVD wasn't all that bad.
His client all got great trophy's and Mark certainly is an enthusiastic PH.
Can't wait for Maximus's Safari report along with photo's of the H&H.

I didn't make it past the first hunt scene...