quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
I've never lost my love of Buffalo hunting in Africa, only the easy ability to do it!

I certainly understand the "BURN OUT FACTOR" I've been in one of those for several years for deer hunting in North America. I've simply shot too many deer in my life, and it has become mundane to me. The only thing that gets my blood up is dangerous game! Nothing else even interests me any longer!

Mac,

Know exactly what you are saying and I'm having the same feelings. May be it is OGS (Old Guy Syndrome).

465H&H

Yeah, other than those monster Saskatchewan bucks in the snow, which I'll never hunt again, I could care less about ever shooting another whitetail, unless it's a late season doe for meat. If it can't hunt me back, I am just not interested.

Surefire,
Your bad safari experience sounded just like mine with Usangu, a few years back.

surestrike, I hear you loud and clear, and I really appreciate your honesty and am sorry for your pain and disappointment.

When you think about it, it's a damned miracle that anything so chancy as an African safari, much less an ordinary stateside hunt, is ever successful, no matter how you measure success.

We wrap up a lot of ourselves and what we want into these things, probably more than we should.

And what makes it worse is that safaris can be ridiculously expensive these days, and as GeoffM24 says, that just ups the ante and our expectations to ridiculous levels.

Few in the safari industry realize the hopes, and even the dreams, that they are putting at risk with their sometimes cavalier attitudes and poor service and performance.

But I long ago learned that whenever we put trust in others to make us happy, we are bound to be disappointed more often than not.

People, and I mean all people, are just plain hard work, whether at home or on safari.

But we can't let them call strike three without taking that one last swing now, can we?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Singleshot03:
Scriptus



Is there a bias that PH's walk on water and are we hero worshippers?

Talented and great people but it is a business. We understand that things go wrong and most of us can accept that but if you waste a day trying to find a tracker or a mistake by a PH shouldn't they make it right? Quote

A PH is a specialised service provider, as is your GP, Lawyer et al. No hero until he saves your bacon, but then that is one of the reasons you are paying lots of sheets for. Like all service providers, no service, no remuneration, or make good. You pay for a loaf of bread, you get a loaf of bread. Simple.
Surestrike, if you do not want the forum to know who this mob is, at least complain to the professional body that they should belong to and the licencing authority in the country they operate in.
I suppose it is the same in every sphere of human activity, there will be a smart-arse wanker involved.

surestrike, this sounds somehow familiar to me. A friend of mine payed a LOT of money and only got a leopard whose skin was damaged by the skinner.
Would you please tell us who the PH and the safari company was?
Cheers, Hans

Burnout? Am I hearing a lot of excuses for what sounds like marginal PH's and or outfitters?

Why make excuses for these guys? What is wrong with an honest hunt report?

I must admit that when I first read this post I was fuming....I thought you arrogant, ungrateful bastard, you should be getting down on your knees and being grateful for having the fiscal ability to go and experience something that thousands of people would gladly donate body parts to do! But I agree that was a bit of a disaster and you have every right be to be pissed. Not all PH's are consumate professionals and a term we like to use down here is PH=Peophol Hunter(Poephol=Anus!) Because a lot of them are exactly that!

And also to be honest some of them just plain do not like Americans, they would rather punch you in the face than go hunting with you, so my advise is name and shame only way they will learn their lesson.

quote:

And also to be honest some of them just plain do not like Americans, they would rather punch you in the face than go hunting with you,

I've found that to be true with some South Africans but not so much in Zimbabwe.

Surestrike:

I read your comments on the "It's Over" thread as well. I wouldn't say I have "burnout" but I would say African hunting is highly overrated (okay, my 09 hunt with Samaras was a dream, but let's face it - it was lucky too). Maybe it is the fact that you shoot so much in such a short period of time. Much of what we shoot is run of the mill stuff.

Maybe it is the huge amount of money we spend. A bad buff hunt isn't going to shake me up, but dumping 70K on a 21 day that tanks would be something hard to swallow, esp the first one.

One of the problems on these hunts is that for many of us, it is the fulfillment of a lifetime dream. But for the PH and the staff, it is a job. We want them to bust their ass for our dream. I have had PHs that never set foot in the area until the day before I arrived, that judged buffalo without seeing them from the front, etc. One lesson I have learned is that subleased concessions are often disappointing.

I am just guessing, but I think the PH and staff can quickly ascertain what a client is likely to tip. Ever notice every PH asks what you do for a living?

Most of us love buffalo hunting, but I don't find it particularly challenging. The most challenging buffalo wasn't one of those stalks into his bedroom but a very long shot after an 8 hour stalk over an open floodplain - our water was long gone, the sun was baking us, but it was truly a memorable hunt.

I guess I am different in that I don't need to shoot constantly. I love sitting in leopard blind, but then I love hunting black bears over bait as well.

I have had a few disappointing hunts in Africa. One of those was a hunt I booked after a glowing story by Craig Boddington. I remember my PH complaining about all the business they were promised as a result of this story. Taught me one major lesson: never buy a hunt based on a magazine story. My first buffalo was soft and less than 30 inches. My second buff, on that hunt, could have been a monster - we were stalking a herd with a huge bull. But the PH got tired of chasing the herd, and when a bull stood on an anthill 50 yards away he asked if I could shoot him in the head. I did so, against my better judgement - what did I know? It was my first buff hunt. That bull was hard, but not over 35 inches.

Members on this site are fond of saying you can shoot a bunch of animals for the price of an elk hunt in North America. Well, look at the trophy room pics on this site...how many run of the mill plains game animals are on walls vs 6 pt elk? I shot a moose last year in the Yukon that would probably make B&C. Sure, it cost me as much as a Cape buff hunt, but you know what? It is a much better trophy than 99 percent of the buffalo I have seen. A six point elk taken on a packstring hunt is a tremendous experience and can't compare to a plains game hunt or even most buffalo hunts.

To a large extent, I agree with Mark Young - I certainly don't diss all game except ele (or buff or spots, etc.). A huge kudu is a stunning trophy, as is a sable, gemsbok, or any number of plains game animals. I love hunting PG, but I just don't get cranked up about shooting run of the mill animals unless it is for cat bait.

Unlike many posters, I still love going to our deer shack in northern MN and spending a week hunting. Most days i don't even see a deer. So what? I watch the birds...sometimes i see a pine marten...I love the clucking of the ravens. A cold beer in the sauna after a day in the cold sometimes wet weather is a small piece of heaven. I suppose the fact i work my ass off and simply enjoy sitting in a treestand doing absolutely nothing helps.

African hunting is still great, and I am certainly not done. I still think a 21 day full bag is the epitome of a grand hunt. I hope to shoot a monster buff in Masailand in January. But there are lots of other great hunts out there. Last week I climbed Mt. Rosalie in your homestate from deer valley, a pretty good climb. My brother and I were scouting the area for fishing and hunting adventures. It was a great day that planted some seeds for future adventures. Having that in your backyard (and only a 90 min flight for me) is something to cherish and take advantage of.

Sorry for the long rambling post. Time to go out for a run before it gets too hot.

AAW,

Thanks for the post. I appreciate your input. As far as me appreciating what I have in my backyard you bet your sweet buttocks I do. The day before yesterday I was at over 13,000' glassing a herd of goats on the rocks on the next ridge line over. That was after a 4 hour climb with some technical stuff at the end,in some of the most glorious country on the planet.

My season opens on the 19th of September. I am like a kid waiting for Christmas morning the anticipation is killing me. This will be a very minimal camp and a solo pack in and multiple solo pack out with the goat, hopefully with a goat!

Part of the issue with me is that I am a very competent outdoorsman. Besides having been a hunting guide in some of Americas toughest country the past, I am solo hunter and regularly pack in either on foot or with horses into places the Average African PH can't even dream of operating in. No staff no trucks totally solo in freezing weather snow, rain, you know the drill. Serious get yourself killed if you aren't in shape and on your game kind of stuff.

It drives ME NUTS when a PH trys to put me in the same client bucket as your average old man city slicker once in a life time hunters.

It's damn near impossible to make a PH understand that you are not afraid of climbing hiking and packing out anything from anywhere. Of course many times I think it's the PH who doesn't want to play hunt core, more than me the client. AND how many guys like me do you really get who hunt Africa?

I'd LOVE to do a hunt where we trekked two to three days between pick ups and resupplies. Doing it with minimal equipment and siwashing at night. Sleeping under a tarp, using water filters and carrying minimal food, shooting dinner for the most part. And you'd have to do it with a PH who wasn't scared to shoot something big out of range of a truck recovery.

Does it exist? I don't think so.

Surestrike:

Your post reminds me of one of my favorite sayings: "There is no shortage of fat and out of shape old men with trophy rooms full of African game." But where is the big mulie? The big elk? The big moose?

Several times I have hiked from Guanella Pass to Pine Junction, crossing the Sawtooth and summiting Mt. Evans on the way. Lots of goats on Evans...

I agree with you on the DIY hunts. I shot a grizzly bear in the Wrangells when I was 25 or 26 and in the Army in AK. Beautiful blond fur, but not a big animal. But to me, it is a great trophy, because I did it myself. My 125 class deer in MN is a better trophy than a 160 shot on some property managed for deer. Those northern woods are huge, and finding a deer like that is tough. A 160 deer there? Might as well be a B&C.

As for siwashing, reminds me of a great story written by Slim Randles back in 79 or 80 for Peteren's HUNTING..."Siwash and survive." But since that didn't sell anyone's wares, stories like that don't get published anymore. Ok, now i need to go run.

Gentlemen,

Listen up...

I appreciate all of you folks who have taken the time to post on this thread. I haven't done a very good job of conveying the fact that I am not mad at the PH and that he was in fact trying to do a good job with what he had to work with. Though when I re read it, it comes across pretty negative. And due to my OP many folks want some PH blood on the ground.


I have spoken privately with several of our highly experienced members and I hold their opinions in high regard and they have added a bit of clarity which I agree with.

First I think I must be suffering more from post hunt'um safari depression. Which if you look up in the Hunters version of the PDR occurs when you actually deep down really want to go on another hunt but for whatever reason can't at the moment.

What I didn't mention in my OP is that we were hunting early season in May and the jesse was THICK. As one of our more esteemed colleges pointed out that the PH had no other choice than to "diesel stalk" as it was impossible to see buff. You had to find fresh track somehow. driving the roads is the only sensible method that time of the year. That's a good point.

Second,

The cow hunt in the hills to my estimation at the time the guys were giving up before we really put in any effort. I didn't mean to insinuate that they were being lazy but it's been mentioned that's how it came across. I don't know exactly why the PH and crew decided to give it up but there are several very plausible explanations. Once again I'm sure a case of poor communication. One very plausable explanation is that the PH didn't want to waste a day or two of my daily fee's recovering a darn old cow buffalo. Another good point, thank you!

I am sure that if I would have booked this hunt during the proper time which is later in the season like late July or August like I had previously, I'd have had zero complaints. Little things like the game scout and no bush buck would have been easily overlooked if we had been into game everyday and were seeing animals like the last hunt that I did with that very same PH. That was the experience I was wanting and the one I got was a severe let down in comparison.

In summary I didn't have a good hunt. There were several factors involved the majority of which was the thick bush at the time. The memory of that poor hunt has been festering in my mind for three years now and the insults imagined and real have grown over the years.

As I mention in my OP the PH is a very well regarded hunter and many of you have had very satisfactory hunts with him as have I.

The major problem on this hunt was a communication issue. As I originally mention in the OP. Don't let that happen to you clearly explain what you are looking for and what you expect and do your research on the best time to hunt you chosen area.

The PH in question is a hard working personable guy who can and does produce very fine animals. Looking back on it and with the input of some hunters far more experienced than I, he had his hands tied behind his back on this hunt due to the local conditions. And after the unicorn screw up which once again I don't totally blame on him. His hunter ME was probably not the easiest guy to please. I was not happy.

To answer to any and all allegations against this hunter which are the product of my original post I'll say this. I'd book another hunt with him right here and right now if I was able and if it was during the proper season in a good area.

Surestike,
You brought up a very important point.. It is just crazy for a ph to take off on a stalk with out telling the hunter what the plan is. I've had a hunter just stop the truck. Get out and take off with me in tow with out saying a word to me,just quacking along with the trackers. I didn't know what the hell we were hunting , where we were going, whether the trackers had seen an animal or tracks or were we checking a water hole ???? That should be Professional Hunter 101, communicate with your hunter.

I have been on 4 trips to 6 places. I have had one bad experience. The fellow that set the hunt up for me stood up for the cost and got scorched by a slimy, no good piece of crap in Zambia. I have offered to post a complete, detailed report here to try and return the scorching I got but the guy that arrange the hunt said the no good POS has enough stroke in the government to harm his business, so I did not post a report. I have told several who it was via PM.

Lesson to me was that I would know every detail of who and what I was doing and have the agents address in case something was misrepresented.

In all things, mistakes happen and honorable people stand up and make it right. My friend in Zambia did that.

I get burned out as well and threaten to sell my rifles and toss the heads but after a few months, I start dreaming again..... and I plan another hunt.

Surestrike:

It is a rare gentleman who listens to constructive criticism, gleans whatever value it may have, and then carefully contemplates his motives and actions in light of the issues raised to assure that he is fair and unselfish... and then, without hesitation, fixes his mistakes.

You are the kind of guy I'd go hunting with anytime.

Let's go to Zim sometime (after the leaves fall!)

Judge,

Thank you for your kind comments. Coming from you, that means a lot to me. I'd very much like to do a hunt with you. Lets make a plan!

surestrike, a very thought provoking thread! Thanks very much for posting.
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:

We wrap up a lot of ourselves and what we want into these things, probably more than we should.

Not just 'probably', but definitely.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

I'd LOVE to do a hunt where we trekked two to three days between pick ups and resupplies. Doing it with minimal equipment and siwashing at night. Sleeping under a tarp, using water filters and carrying minimal food, shooting dinner for the most part. And you'd have to do it with a PH who wasn't scared to shoot something big out of range of a truck recovery.

Does it exist? I don't think so.

You do see these sometimes. There is this this one, for example. But no DG.

Not exactly the same, but Fairgame did an experimental hunt for Lechwe and followed up with an AR group in Zambia.

At this point, I wish I could do enough Africa hunts to get burned out. But between tuition and the economy I will be happy if I can slake my thirst a time or two.

I do understand though. A bad trip, or even a bad experience on a good trip, can give you pause or sour you on the experience.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:


I'd LOVE to do a hunt where we trekked two to three days between pick ups and resupplies. Doing it with minimal equipment and siwashing at night. Sleeping under a tarp, using water filters and carrying minimal food, shooting dinner for the most part. And you'd have to do it with a PH who wasn't scared to shoot something big out of range of a truck recovery.

Does it exist? I don't think so.

Surestrike,

We could easily make it exist, what you describe and more - we could do it for weeks if you like. I could arrange this type of hunt without much problem. My brother did one many years ago in Dande, for 2 weeks or more. Recovery was not an issue - when they shot something they took some meat and moved on, leaving a tracker with a handheld radio to guide in a cruiser when it came. They had some trackers and porters and had a blast. I also accompanied a couple of fly camping hunts when I worked for Roger Whittall in Chewore. Not much of a problem to arrange this, when would you like to do it? We could go with minimal kit - you, me, a PH, a couple of trackers and our backpacks. Just let me know....

Cheers, David

quote:

Originally posted by David Hulme:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:


I'd LOVE to do a hunt where we trekked two to three days between pick ups and resupplies. Doing it with minimal equipment and siwashing at night. Sleeping under a tarp, using water filters and carrying minimal food, shooting dinner for the most part. And you'd have to do it with a PH who wasn't scared to shoot something big out of range of a truck recovery.

Does it exist? I don't think so.

Surestrike,

We could easily make it exist, what you describe and more - we could do it for weeks if you like. I could arrange this type of hunt without much problem. My brother did one many years ago in Dande, for 2 weeks or more. Recovery was not an issue - when they shot something they took some meat and moved on, leaving a tracker with a handheld radio to guide in a cruiser when it came. They had some trackers and porters and had a blast. I also accompanied a couple of fly camping hunts when I worked for Roger Whittall in Chewore. Not much of a problem to arrange this, when would you like to do it? We could go with minimal kit - you, me, a PH, a couple of trackers and our backpacks. Just let me know....

Cheers, David

I fly camped for a short time on the Rafiji River in 2009. It was the highlight of my hunt.

Surestrike you sound like a pro hunters worst nightmare, an actual hunter who knows BS when he hears it, is not going to party the whole trip or start a romance with his guide. If you book with a big company, consider hunting with one of the younger hunters, and make it known you want to participate in your hunt. Get it all in writing and ask a lot of questions. You are setting up a business deal, as this is exactly what it is to the hunting company. This may be a trip you have sacrificed and saved for, but for them it is one of many hunts especially when hunting buffalo. It takes hard work to find the correct setup, but it is worth it. I wish you good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by noreaster:
Surestrike you sound like a pro hunters worst nightmare, an actual hunter who knows BS when he hears it,

After my last trip, I get it. I am not ready to give up by any means. It has taught me to do better research on who I hunt with, go only with the best of the best who have a proven track record.

quote:

Surestrike you sound like a pro hunters worst nightmare, an actual hunter who knows BS when he hears it, is not going to party the whole trip or start a romance with his guide.

I don't know about not starting a romance when I book with Dave Hulme. He's kind of cute.

Dave in all seriousness I am very interested in doing a hunt like that. We'll leave the romance out if you don't mind to horribly.

PM sent.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

Surestrike you sound like a pro hunters worst nightmare, an actual hunter who knows BS when he hears it, is not going to party the whole trip or start a romance with his guide.

I don't know about not starting a romance when I book with Dave Hulme. He's kind of cute.

Dave in all seriousness I am very interested in doing a hunt like that. We'll leave the romance out if you don't mind to horribly.

PM sent.

Awww, okay then... Bit of a letdown but I'm still keen to help plan and hopefully accompany a hunt like this. Let's get it on! Oops, I mean, let's look into it...PM sent back...

quote:

Originally posted by Scriptus:
Come on men. Why do you pay for crap and keep quiet. Throw your toys right out the cot. Demand to speak to the outfitter. Sort the BS out there and then. You are the customer, paying for a service. If the PH does not shape, for whatever reason, he must be replaced.
Surestrike, did you sign a contract which stipulated your daily rate. If so, tell the bastards to take a dump. For poor service demand a refund and sure as hell, not one cent in gratuities to anyone in camp.
If the camp is full, ask to be taken elsewhere. Let the other members have details so that they at least do not end up "down town on market day."
If you have "gonads," stand up for yourselves.

Agreed.

Good post Surestrike and probably better to outline the style of hunting you are looking for in the contract.

My advise is to use an agent who is familiar with the operator and let him sort out the BS if and when it occurs.

Sounds like there are some here who can offer you the experience you desire and look forward to hearing about your hunts in the future.

Funny thing about AR and African hunting. I start this thread talking about be burned out. And by day three I am planning my next big African hunt.

I wish i was burnt out on it. I would save a lot of money!

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I wish i was burnt out on it. I would save a lot of money!

Don't kid yourself Larry....You would save a lot of money if you were burnt out, but you don't wish you were!

There's just too much to do and see in Africa to burn me out. The worst experience I had there was on the most expensive safari I ever booked. I suppose that could have put me off Africa big time but it didn't. I just booked something else for the next year and had an incredible experience.

Mark

::SIGH::: maybe some day I'll be in a similar predicament...

True David.

I think your brother & Alistair are happy that I am not. I am heading over in about 6 weeks. I am going to Sango this time, if Will didn't kill everything! LOL

Maybe I will see you around.

Larry,

I am positive they are happy you are not burning out....

Yes, it seems Thierry and Will have set the standard this year..But don't worry, standards are set to be surpassed, and you are hunting Sango with ZH, after all...Who are you hunting with? I know you will have a great time and shoot some fantastic trophies, whoever it may be.

Cheers Larry, all the best, Dave

I used to feel the same way (enthusiastic) about 20- to 30-year old women. Now, I don't have the patience....well, I don't have a lot of things I had then. But, they've been replaced by things that are much more important, and I'm looking forward to turkey hunting. You know - leaning back up against a tree and letting the game come to me!

David:

I will be hunting with Collen again.

I hear there is a big elephant hanging around. Just the thing to break in my new big banger with!

Let me tell you about my World com stock. Grow up. Stuff happens.

quote:

Originally posted by johnhb:
Let me tell you about my World com stock. Grow up. Stuff happens.

Alright John,

You tell me all about your World com and I'll tell you all about my UAL ESOP Stock.

When we are done crying in our beers we can start talking about fun stuff like chicks, big bore rifles and hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by johnhb:
Let me tell you about my World com stock.

No, please don't, there must be a site for that somewhere....