Wasn't this filmed for the TV show sportsmen of North America? If I'm not mistaken I thought there was a thread here on AR promoting Sportsmen of North America and asking people to join. Perhaps an email to Sportsman of NA telling them that the slaughter they filmed( I refuse to use the word hunt) was pathetic.

If killing livestock is what gets you off, so be it, but don't call it hunting. That lion was beyond stone and the idiot must have been using a toy bow and arrow set. It was embarrassing, disgusting, and painful to watch.

Just watched it on UTube- truly and utterly disgusting! Surely someone with a little bit of clout in the SA world of hunting/ethics committees could/ should be able to do something given they have video evidence of a tame or worse still a drugged lion getting assassinated by 3 idiots walking alongside their vehicle!

While things have deteriorated badly in Zim I can assure you that an incident like this that is SO BAD for hunting as a whole would not go unpunished. REPULSIVE - you do find yourself routing for the lion- imagine what the anti hunters feel!

Just thought I would repost Bobby's email to Aaron so everybody can see it again. Hey Bobby, you're obviously a member here, why don't you just post up about this hunt


Aaron, You must be the stupidest dumb ass idiot hunter I have ever seen. Are you totally brain dead? I tried commenting on your post on the Vinny bloke's Lion hunt but instead decide to mail you to save you the public embarrassment. Are you hunting for the Trumps business or what? Seems to me that you are in the business of bad mouthing other outfitters because you cannot making a decent living on your own. You are pathetic man. You don't deserve to be called a hunter. I know the Hunting Legends guys and have hunted with them last year. They are awesome guys and I had a wonderful time with them and I bet you they do more for their clients than you can ever dream of. Maybe I must get some of my buddy's to post the shit hunts they had with you. How's that? I was on these guy's game ranch and I met the owners and they are as professional as you can get and has immense respect for us clients and their animals. So don't you go talk a bunch of shit about people you don't know. Get a job man. Sitting behind a computer big man and think making false comments and attacking other like you do is big of you. It says something about who you really are and your character. You are an asshole of note man. You are a disgrace to the hunting community. You are as pathetic as the TMZ guys going on about the lives of others thriving on negative and bad news. You are a piece of shit. I checked the video. You and your stupid ass followers must all be drunk or you know nothing about hunting to make such comments. You are feeding the antis with news to burn the hunting communities. Are you stupid? I expected a bit more from you but it seems you are nothing but a yellow belly redneck. I stay in Brooklyn New York and I am going to mail all my friends in New York, Colorado and California now and launch a public attack on you and your company. I am tired of sick fuckers like like you that cause more harm to the hunting industry than any good whilst the guys you accuse and make false statements of are actually doing the good in Africa. I have seen it with my own eyes. I don't have anything further to say to you apart from watch your back buddy. I am coming for you. I will publish this letter and I will let people know who you really are and we will take you down.

So, Bobby from Brooklyn, please chime in. You called Aaron a yellow bellied redneck but you're the one that doesn't have the nads to tell us all publicly how sporting a hunt like this is. You have to resort to an email with childish threats and insults. Pretty classy but about what we should expect given the company you keep

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Just watched it on UTube- truly and utterly disgusting! Surely someone with a little bit of clout in the SA world of hunting/ethics committees could/ should be able to do something given they have video evidence of a tame or worse still a drugged lion getting assassinated by 3 idiots walking alongside their vehicle!

While things have deteriorated badly in Zim I can assure you that an incident like this that is SO BAD for hunting as a whole would not go unpunished. REPULSIVE - you do find yourself routing for the lion- imagine what the anti hunters feel!

You need to change your hat Buzz. One of those clowns had one which if not a replica of yours, was damned close!

Guys - I should in all fairness say this. A rep from "Hunting Legends" has emailed me on numerous occasions now, and frankly, he's been a real gentleman. A fact that was NOT lost on me, and my responses.

He did in fact agree that the video could be seen as offensive, and apologized if some of us in the hunting community took offense, as he felt the shortened/edited version did not show it ALL, etc. He also told me that the Youtube videos are NOT from HL, so he could not remove them from the web.

"Bobby" as I mentioned, sent me a couple of very threatening messages, both to my business and bodily harm? The HL rep was quick to condemn the threats, and apologized on "Bobby's" behalf. He did tell me Bobby and his buddies are clients from NY, and are likely just defending their position.

I also was very frank about the hunts in Nyakasanga, and he too agreed that more due-dilligence could be done on behalf of HL, but emphasized greatly - that HL is only interested in sound wildlife conservation. They are currently working with the guy in Matetsi 1, and from what I understand, he's a solid guy? So, if that's the case, then I say good-luck to em.

Bottom line, I believe we all made our point. A point that I hope will not be lost on others who take to the internet/Youtube with grossly mis-represented videos of "hunting", "hunting practices", and the overall ideal that we all share as hunters. In this case, I'm all for the legality of what they are doing, I say carry on! But as I mentioned already, please for heaven-sakes keep it off of the "world wide web"!!!

The hunt video has been taken down.

Jeff

Bobby sounds just like Dawnroar!
Instead of helping, his actions add fuel to the fire!

Bobby Hunter

Hi Bobby and fellow hunters. We all make mistakes in life, but to carry on like this is pure rubbish guys.

As for you Bobby, you are a valued client of ours and hunted with us in 2009, but we have emailed you once and asked that you please refrain from making this personal Bobby.

You agreed - and now this!

I am sorry Bobby, client or no client, this has gone to far and I ask you and your friends in NY or Brooklyn, to please stop fighting any cause on our behalf. We are big enough to face the music ourselves Bobby and if we have done anything wrong, we will handle this ourselves!!

We do not want to be associated with or carry on with such pettiness any further and I appeal to you to stop using Hunting Legends' name in vain.

As for other fellow hunters, if we have offended anybody, we sincerely apologize. The dvd in mention indeed can portray the totally wrong message and easily can lead people to think the worst, as it does not reflect the run up and details of the hunt, which we assure you was not a drugged or canned hunt.

Aaron Nielsen did the right thing and we deserved a good lesson in paying attention to details and public perceptions.

No excuse!!

Regardless, as a company committed to the future of the hunting industry at large, we have taken heed and accepted the criticism as it was well deserved.

It was our mistake to allow such a short snippet of a hunt to be placed on our website. The YOUTUBE version was not placed by us as Aaron rightfully says and we are trying to have it removed.

Once again, we publicly apologize if we have served the industry any damage and will strive to be a better and more professional company than ever.

As for comments from Bobby Hunter, we do not condone his ranting and raving and hereby distance ourselves from Bobby Hunter.

(My apology Bobby, but we have already asked you once to stop this)

All my best.

Phillip J Mostert
CEO
Hunting Legends Africa
phillip@huntinglegends.com

Bobby Hunter

For the record and to keep things open and honest buddy.

You booked a hunt with us last year Bobby, but you never pitched. The last time you hunted with us was in 2009 and you know it.

Now please leave us be my friend as this has gotten out of hand and we will not condone this public humiliation any further.

To all committed hunters out there - we yet again apologize for any inconvenience and assure you that any wrong doing on our behalf will be rectified in the name of a great sport we love more than any other.

All my best.

Phillip J Mostert
CEO
Hunting Legends Africa
phillip@huntinglegends.com

Ok so we've beat Vinny and Bobby and the outfitter to a pulp for the last three or four days. Is there anyone here who can reach out to the outfitter or any of the other two guys, perhaps sit down with them, skype with them, converse with them?

That's the right thing to do, now. Turn down the heat, stop rattling the sabers, end the threats before something perhaps really tragic unfolds.

"Bobby", nobody needs to be coming after anybody. We need to all sitdown together, exchange meaningful dialogue and hear each other out on the merits of this video existing on the Internet. Removing it from the outfitter's website is not enuf. It should be removed from YouTube now.

Sounding like a bunch of gangters and mobsters doesn't resolve this issue for the hunting community. It only exacerbates it.

I'll put my name down on a list as willing to reach out to Bobby, Vinny and the outfitter involved to discuss what I've suggested above. Is there anyone willing to join me? Feel free to email me at marc@bwanamoja.com

Well bam, there you have it. Phil Mostert, you and I were writing at the same time with similar intentions. My offer still stands, with you Bobby, Vinny and everybody. Let me be the first to thank you for your responses.

Marc

Thank you for your response. I am the outfitter and will take this matter up personally Sir.

Thank you.

Vinny Barranco is one of our clients and one of the most standup hunters I have ever met. Vinny is a hardworking plumber from Staten Island and a very good friend. He does not drink, he does not lie and he does not have a bad hair on his head.

Bobby and Vinny are as far as I know, not friends although Bobby lives in the Brooklyn or Bronx area.

We have sent Bobby an email asking him to quit this intervention. He has not replied to our email and seems to have made this personal, which we don't condone whatsoever.

I have respect for any hunter looking after the interests of the industry even if it means having to take a public knock on the chin to fix our side.But we do not condone threats and vulgar use language in a public arena. This whole issue has become personal to some and we thus distanced ourselves from anything Bobby Hunter may say or do, as it does not carry our approval.

Aaron did the right thing for the industry, accept that he has not withdrawn his initial remarks in this post, about the Trumps and trying to imply that we had anything to do with Out of Africa Safaris and Dawie van der Westhuizen.

Van der Westhuizen was contracted by the Zimbabwean Outfitters of Matetsi Unit 1 and not by us. The fact that van der Westhuizen may or may not have a checkered past is beyond my saying Sir.

All I know is this, the Trumps are the damn best people and hunters I have ever hunted with. They are truly great outdoors men and I will personally attack anybody who dare say the contrary.

I know Don & Eric personally and they have stood up for the hunting industry more than any of us have publicly.

I have also now publicly admitted our mistake of having the video on our website and will do everything in my power to re-gain the trust of the hunting industry we may have failed in this process.

I have been a member of this forum since 2009, I am an SCI Life Member - membership number 1371 - I am a member of IPHA and in more than 20 years, I have never before had or dealt with a complaint against our business.

This will hopefully be the first and the last Sir.

Respectfully yours.

Phillip j Mostert
CEO
Hunting Legends Africa
phillip@huntinglegends.com

To view the footage on Youtube enter "lion hunt vinny" and a 6 min 14 second version comes up. I think every thing that has been said in derision is fairly accurate.

I have to say Bobby is a real stitch though. Can't you just see the guy spewing curses around a mouthful of capicola?


Jeff

The sad thing is that the trophy pic from this guy is virtually indistinguishable from any legitimate hunt, however the means to the ends were galaxies apart. This is why I do not think any hunting videos should be posted on youtube or other very public sites. I've often said we are paying out the rope from which our necks will hang and this video is an example.

Truly shameful and disgusting

I'm just curious (as an independent bystander) as to the actual conditions of the hunt ... and the history of this lion.

How long had this lion been on his own? ... that is, assuming that he was raised in captivity, when was he released?, how many days, (weeks, years) prior to being shot? [Doesn't SA law now require two years?] ... at what age? and so on ... ... ...

And what about the alleged drugging? any validity to that?

I'm not trying to stir the pot any more than it already is, but if Mr. Mostert is truly interested in "regaining the trust of the hunting industry", he should be willing to be specific about the details of the lion and the hunt. ... No?

I have never seen a lion in the wild. However, this did not look "wild" to me. The "stalk" was in what looked like completely open terrain by a large group spread far and wide. It is just very hard to imagine a scenario such as in the video ever happening on a "wild" lion. If the video does distort the reality, then I apologize.

Steve

The lion was hunted in the Nortwest Province on the Serapa Ranch which is listed as an official Cabelas Big 5 hunting ranch in South Africa we believe.

The ranch owner is one of the pioneers in the industry and has an unblemished reputation as far as we know.

The lion was already free roaming on the ranch when we and the clients arrived there.

How long exactly it had been free roaming, I cannot vouch for, however, I can assure you that the Serapa outfit does everything strictly according to the rules and regulations of the industry.

As far as I know there is a call to have lions free roaming for 2 years before they are hunted. As far as I know this as yet has not been implemented in legislation, but would in our opinion be a good thing if implemented as this will take care of the fly by night operators.

I know that the Orange Free State in South Africa has already started a policy where Lions are micro chipped. In this way the Department of Nature Conservation know exactly when the Lions were released and obviously then also when it is hunted.

Although we do hunt captive bred lion, we are totally opposed to the canned hunting industry where lions are hunted in small areas. None of the farms we have hunted lion on, are smaller than 10,000 acres and the Serapa Ranch in question is bigger than 50,000 acres I believe.

I fully understand that some people may be dead set against the hunting of Lions which have been bred in captivity and then released, however, it is my opinion that if practiced ethically and sporting, that this practice is saving the African Lion from extinction.

The most important ethic is to always be honest with your clients and tell them the truth.

If a client wants to go and hunt a wild lion in Tanzania for example, that would set back around $60,000 plus. If they are willing to hunt released lions in South Africa, this will cost them less than half that price.

It is thus up to the client to decide what hunt best suits him and his pocket, but more important than that what experience he is looking for.

There is no replacement for hunting a lion in Tanzania or in Zambia, however, there are a number of good outfits in South Africa who provide clients a very real and fair chase hunting experience and I can assure you - that is what we have done and what the Serapa Ranch provides.

As mentioned the brief snippet of the hunt on You Tube which we did not post, does not provide you or anybody else with the details of the hunt and what transpired over a period of three days hunting this lion.

This is the fact and very reason for our apology to the industry at large and a very costly mistake to live with.

The lion was not drugged and we will never condone the hunting of drugged lion, neither will a reputable company like Cabelas, I believe, support a company which does so.

I hope this answers your question Sir.

Regards

Phillip Mostert

I by no means know anything about African lions, but if that lion was not drugged it was hand fed up to its release. I deal with north American carnivores everyday here in BC. I have never seen a wild preditor act like that lion.
Even if it is as you say it sure was not very sporting.

wow, just watched the video, I truly was not prepared for that.

Gents:
Here is my two cents.
I agree that the video was a black eye to the hunting business. More fat guys in camo who want to kill and don't want to track and hunt. That said, I took a lot of heat from my article in the African Hunter magazine, "Where Have all the Hunters Gone?" I guess this type of shooting is very common. Look at the guaranteed deer hunts and the "10 animals in 10 days" for South African plains game hunts. I agree they are trash but what is the difference about arrowing a lion in this manner compared to a kudu? Don't get me wrong, I deplore all hunts like this and have written much to support my point of view. But I never see the hunting community standing up to the guaranteed deer and elk hunts in the USA. Or any other such hunt in SA. It seems only "canned lion hunts" are the focus. How about all canned hunts?
The video sucked
The fat guys sucked
The PH sucked
But it still goes on--on both sides of the pond.
Cheers all, I enjoy communicating with many of you.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
what is the difference about arrowing a lion in this manner compared to a kudu?

About $25k.

After watching and seeing it standing in the grass maybe he was waiting for hand thrown meat.

Mike

For your information.

HERE IS THE PROOF THAT THE TRUMP HUNT WAS LEGAL.

Trump Hunt was Legal

Trump sons' Zimbabwe hunt legal

2012-03-26 22:50

Harare – Zimbabwe's parks authority on Monday said US property magnate Donald Trump's sons were licensed to hunt game on a trip two years ago, after photos of their trophies sparked online outrage.

Trump's sons Donald Junior and Eric made a hunting expedition in Zimbabwe in 2010. Their pictures went viral on social media this month, showing them posing next to carcasses of a leopard, an elephant, a crocodile and an array of other animals.

The images drew condemnation on Facebook and Twitter, where their hunting trip was slammed as unethical. Donald Trump Jr has insisted on Twitter that he did nothing wrong.

"They were accompanied by a professional hunter, and we have done a background check on him and his license is still valid," Caroline Washaya-Moyo, spokesperson for the parks authority said in a statement.

"Also with the Trump brothers was a ranger from the parks department who was monitoring the hunt. The animals they hunted are available for hunting in Zimbabwe."

Although leopards are endangered, she said they can be hunted under strict conditions set by the Convention for the Trade in Endangered Species. Zimbabwe's parks have a quota of 500 leopards that can be hunted each year, she added.

The statement came after Johnny Rodriguez, chair of the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force, said his organization was investigating whether the Trump brothers' hunt was legal.

The trip was organized by Pretoria-based Hunting Legends International, which specializes in big game hunts for the wealthy. The company has also insisted that the big game hunt near Victoria Falls was done by the book.

- SAPA

Once again as concerned and committed hunter, I salute the Trumps for standing up for hunting and can only ask that you do the same.

They deserve the support!

As I've said before, Panthera pardus is not endangered. It is now categorized (as of 2008) as "Near Threatened", upgraded from its prior evaluation (in 2002) as being of "Least Concern", but still 2 categories away from "Endangered".

Leopard Status

All,
Just so there is no misunderstanding, I am not the Vinny involved in this mess.

Take to target off my back please...

I promise to play well with other children...

Vinny the Good Guy

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
....More fat guys in camo who want to kill and don't want to track and hunt....
The video sucked
The fat guys sucked
The PH sucked....

Cal

Could it be you see more old fat guys wanting to kill simply because the old fat guys are the majority of hunters with enough coin to hunt anywhere in Africa????????????

quote:

I fully understand that some people may be dead set against the hunting of Lions which have been bred in captivity and then released, however, it is my opinion that if practiced ethically and sporting, that this practice is saving the African Lion from extinction.

Phill,

Your above statement could be read to mean that in your opinion, the wild lion is en route to global extinction. I strongly disagree and would caution that such claims are carefully thought out before being put in written words. While that may be your opinion, an anti would easily twist those words to claim that "See, hunters themselves agree that the lion is becoming extinct!" by quoting you above.

Sorry Bwanamich

My apology, it is not meant to read that way, understand your point Sir. I just believe that hunting captive bred lions is no different from hunting captive bred buffalo or nyala.

In the end species in the real wild areas of Africa benefit as their may be less pressure on these areas.

I totally understand your explanation though and understand that it could be interpreted in a different manner.

2th Doc:
Good point and I think you are correct, sir.
Cal

quote:

Originally posted by Vinny:
All,
Just so there is no misunderstanding, I am not the Vinny involved in this mess.

Take to target off my back please...

I promise to play well with other children...

Vinny the Good Guy

Yeaaaaaaah... I'm not so sure...

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Mostert:
For your information.

HERE IS THE PROOF THAT THE TRUMP HUNT WAS LEGAL.

Trump Hunt was Legal

Trump sons' Zimbabwe hunt legal

2012-03-26 22:50

Harare – Zimbabwe's parks authority on Monday said US property magnate Donald Trump's sons were licensed to hunt game on a trip two years ago, after photos of their trophies sparked online outrage.

Trump's sons Donald Junior and Eric made a hunting expedition in Zimbabwe in 2010. Their pictures went viral on social media this month, showing them posing next to carcasses of a leopard, an elephant, a crocodile and an array of other animals.

The images drew condemnation on Facebook and Twitter, where their hunting trip was slammed as unethical. Donald Trump Jr has insisted on Twitter that he did nothing wrong.

"They were accompanied by a professional hunter, and we have done a background check on him and his license is still valid," Caroline Washaya-Moyo, spokesperson for the parks authority said in a statement.

"Also with the Trump brothers was a ranger from the parks department who was monitoring the hunt. The animals they hunted are available for hunting in Zimbabwe."

Although leopards are endangered, she said they can be hunted under strict conditions set by the Convention for the Trade in Endangered Species. Zimbabwe's parks have a quota of 500 leopards that can be hunted each year, she added.

The statement came after Johnny Rodriguez, chair of the Zimbabwe Conservation Task Force, said his organization was investigating whether the Trump brothers' hunt was legal.

The trip was organized by Pretoria-based Hunting Legends International, which specializes in big game hunts for the wealthy. The company has also insisted that the big game hunt near Victoria Falls was done by the book.

- SAPA

Once again as concerned and committed hunter, I salute the Trumps for standing up for hunting and can only ask that you do the same.

They deserve the support!

Sir - I think its important to make a couple of things clear. I never insinuated the Trumps hunt was illegal, never. I'm glad Zim Parks has issued a statement - a statement that makes ONE MAJOR incorrect insinuation, that frankly is more damaging than beneficial to the entire case. "Caroline" the Zim Parks spokesperson clearly indicates the Leopard is in fact "Endangered", but still legal to hunt! My lord really?? What in the world is with these people? I would encourage you not to show this letter to ANYONE, as it clearly indicates the Trumps were hunting an "endangered" species, which is absolutely FALSE!!!

Secondly, I think it also important to understand my position on the issues of Zimbabwe. We all know "legal" has become a very loose term over the past few yrs in Zim. Hell, it appears its now "legal" to shoot elephants within the confines of Hwange National Park? Just as it was "legal" for a few REALLY BAD Zimbos/South Africans to systematically slaughter 8 Lions in Nyakasanga in 2011 alone. An area that was always regulated to 1 Lion per year via a legit auction process. The very same thing happened in 2010 as well, although I am not sure the exact number of lions killed. The exact same grossly negligent over-shooting of buffalo, elephants and other species was happening too. This is NOT directed at you, just to you, please know that. So, thus why many of us have become very skeptical over the past few years when we hear, "Ya, but it was LEGAL in Zim"!!

My opinion strictly - but just because the horrible example of wildlife conservation in Nyakasanga was "Legal" over the past couple of years, certainly does not excuse the fact that some were/are willing to profit, at the cost of Zim's wildlife. Now, the rep of "HL" made it clear to me via email, an email which I still have, that "HL" certainly could have done a better job in doing its due dilligence in Zim with some of what I told him about regarding Zim hunts. Just FYI.

Aaron

Ok, enough said and I think we have all exhausted the topic of the Trumps now.

But just so that we are on the same page. I do not have any letter from Caroline Washaya-Moyo from Zim Parks. The extract I posted shows a link to where you can read the full story as stated in the press.

She sent a press release out to all news papers - not me!

I dont control or have any influence over their actions.

The only reason why I posted the article on AR, is to clear any speculation about the Trump Hunt and the Legality of the hunt including our position in the matter.

As for Nyakasanga area, thats a different topic altogether and maybe best served as a post on its own.

As mentioned to you before, we have had our own run in with what I would refer to as the Nyakasanga - Makuti mafia.

If anything deserves attention it certainly is the right place to start.

Here is the guy who shot the lion in the video clip says with a 70lb. Matthews bow at 28 yards...

Mike,
Chubby would have made at least 2 good Lion baits, and I would say 4 for Leopard.

I just watched the video as well,utterly disgusting and vile,there is no excuse for this sort of a thing to take place,shame on everybody that was involved !!!
I am glad somebody had the balls to bring this to light,Aaron I thank you sir for making this public.

good lord- at first i thought Shockey was standing next to a hippo mount.

well, took a dose of Zofran( anti-nausea medication) and watched the you tube video. in spite of the medication the whole thing made me sick to my stomach. for any outfitter to consider that a proper( versus legal) hunt beggars the imagination. 8-10 people walk up to a "free" range lion in open savannah and he just lays down and watches them approach? REALLY??? HELL, HE CAME TO THEM LOOKING FOR DINNER! at least i know who NEVER to consider booking with.

I spend the last 20minutes on utube watching hunting-clips Lots of shit is shown there. I'm getting the impression that utube is a thread for real hunting.....

jdollar and others: Make no mistake I'm no fan of killing drugged animals if in fact this lion was drugged it is a hideous act. But to post comments as to a man's ethnic,religious, sexual preferences or physical build on an open forum is no better,an does more to show the character of the poster than slander their target.