Is their any practile diffrence in the stopping power of the 500NE and the 470NE. I'm not talking about a normal broad-side shot but what if you have to make a MS style charge sooping shot.

Dr B

There is absolutely NO difference in stopping a charge if you reach the brain of the charging animal.

The bullet size and weight are TOTALLY immaterial.

Saeed i agree if you reach the brain with any rifle including a 22LR the animal will be DRT.
What if you miss the brain on at least two of MS tapes he misses the brain the first with a 500NE the Buff is shot through the nose and shows no sign of being hit the second shot brained him with expected results. The second incident is a buff hit on the bridge of the nose with a 600NE the rond blew his mouth open and stunded the buff and stoped the charge, The second shot through the boss DRT. I've seen other viedos where the buff was shot in the chest during a charge and knocked down then got back up.
I don't relly enjoy recoil or heavy guns so a easer kicking lighter 470NE would be nice, but I don't want to give up to much knockdown power for convience.

Dr B

Ganyana - July 30, 2006 - Quote:

"For buffalo- bigger is better."

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There is absolutely NO difference in stopping a charge if you reach the brain of the charging animal.

The bullet size and weight are TOTALLY immaterial.

If you miss the brain (which is quite likely on a charging buff) then bullet diameter and bullet weight are all you have.

The old timers who shot far more animals than anyone today gets a chance at felt that a charging elephant was more likely to be turned with a missed brain shot from a .500 NE than from a .470 or smaller. Keep in mind that the question is about charging buff, which means the shot will be offhand at a moving target, not off shooting sticks at a stationary broadside target through a scope.

For any of you whom have shot both, is there much difference in felt recoil?

The general opinion of those who have much more experience than anyone on this forum with charging buff and elephant is that the larger the bullet is in weight and/or diameter the more likely it is to stop the beastie. The 500 does hit harder on shots that miss the brain but the 470 has plenty of thump to solve the problem.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The general opinion of those who have much more experience than anyone on this forum with charging buff and elephant is that the larger the bullet is in weight and/or diameter the more likely it is to stop the beastie. The 500 does hit harder on shots that miss the brain but the 470 has plenty of thump to solve the problem.

465H&H

I am sorry to say that the above statement is just someone's opinion, and I certainly do not subscribe to it.

If one misses the brain, there is no guarantee that a bigger, heavier bullet is going to make that much of a difference.

quote:

If one misses the brain, there is no guarantee that a bigger, heavier bullet is going to make that much of a difference.

Have we the presumption of a brain shot here?

What then, if you miss the brain shot or if there simply is no brain shot?

Larger, heavier bullets do not increase the likelihood of smashing bone and/or the more extensive wounding of heavy game? There are times when any decent hit is a great hit. Better it should be the hardest hit one can deliver.

World Hunter,
Yes, I have shot them both. I do not detect much difference between the two. Of course, so much depends on the rifle's weight, stock configuration, etc. For me, they are in that same recoil class with my .458 Lott. I would not let recoil differences between the two influence my choice.

I think John Taylor's thoughts on this are interesting. He wrote that the increase in power from the 470 to the 500 was not really worth the increase in rifle weight. If one wants more power the better choice is the 577.

Brett

OK Gents, here is another "OPINION"!

As long as the CNS is hit, no matter the animal, or caliber of the bullet, the animal is stopped, period! I think, however that there is a great difference between stopping a conserted charge of a Cape Buffalo, and that of an elephant! I find that the ele is much easier to turn, with a good slap in the chops with a big bullet, even if the shot isn't a kill,but it effectively stops the charge. The brain shot that is missed will usually turn the ele, and the killing shots are in the Heart/lung are as he turns, in most cases. All this depends how close to the brain the bullet gets, of course!

I would say, if a 500 gr 470NE solid passes the same distance away from the brain, as a 570 gr, 500NE bullet, it would seem to me, the shock would be heavier to the brain with the larger bullet. I don't believe you can count on that as a hard and fast rule, however! I've seen many ele dropped to their bellies with a close to the brain shot with a 577NE 750 gr solids, but still had to be hit in the brain to finish the job. Who is to say, however, that same shot with a 375H&H 300 gr solid may not have had the same effect. I can't!

The Cape Buffalo, OTH, once he starts his charge he will not stop,unless killed, or damaged so badly as to interfere with his ability to finish the charge

IMO,he will not be TURNED,by the largest bullet you can give him,unless the above discribed damage is done to him.
These are two different animals, and killing shot to the CNS is final to either, but the stopping of a charge is not necessarily a killing shot on an ELe,as he can be turned very often! IMO, unless completely disabeled, even for a short time, the buff will keep coming, and will not turn. Even if hit so hard the has to stop, you better not wait to see if he falls, but hammer him again till he does, and even then be very carful how you approch him!

I will say this, if I were in the buisness of stopping animals only, my choice would be the 500NE, over the 470NE. In fact, I don't think the 470NE is all that good as a stopper, and is only in existance because the 450 bores were outlawed in the 1909 ruling. The 450NE 3 1/4" did as good a job on everything as the 470NE does, and when something more was needed the 500NE was the next step.

In the same weight rifle the 500NE definently has more recoil, but if you are shooting at a "BITE-BACK", you will not feel it at all.

All only one man's opinion, but it didn't cost anything other than time to read it!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The general opinion of those who have much more experience than anyone on this forum with charging buff and elephant is that the larger the bullet is in weight and/or diameter the more likely it is to stop the beastie. The 500 does hit harder on shots that miss the brain but the 470 has plenty of thump to solve the problem.

465H&H

I am sorry to say that the above statement is just someone's opinion, and I certainly do not subscribe to it.

If one misses the brain, there is no guarantee that a bigger, heavier bullet is going to make that much of a difference.

Saeed!

You are correct, these are opinions but opinions are all we have since the sublect does not lend it self to scientificly valid research. With all due respect, a simple review of the PH choices for DG rifles in another thread here will show that your opinion is definately the minority opinion among those who use their rifles every day to protect themselves and their clients. You don't see many if any PHs using <40 caliber 400 grain bullets as DG rifles. Fewer and fewer each year are using the 375 H&H and non were reported using super 375s such as the 375 Weatherby, 378 Weatherby or 375 RUM. That tells me something!

465H&H

Our host, Saeed, has killed many buffalo, probably more than many if not most PH's.

Correct me if I am wrong, Saeed, but I believe our host has been shooting for the head now for several years.

He has many one-shot kills to show for it.

I suspect a medium velocity ctg like the 375 x 404 with the Barnes X or Walter Hog (both monometal HP's) have not always hit the brain. A near miss with a fairly high velocity medium bore is certainly likely to cause enough secondary fragments and enlarged temporary cavity to cause brain death on a near miss.

I am not so sure a low velocity big bore is capable of this. (Though it may carry on into the spine).

The important thing to remember about a PH is that he is a Professional Hunter, and more likely to be a calm and accurate shot at moving game than most of his clients.

(Unless they come from the United Arab Emerites).

It is the PH's ability to shoot a moving (charging) animal in the CNS that separates him from his client, not what he shoots.

I have only hunted Africa once, but have shot many hundreds of large animals in the head.

Andy

My minimum for a stopping rifle would be a 40 cal with a 400 gr bullet at @2100fps.

I believe in physics.
I think doubles in the 450/475 group are a step above a 400.
Lokewise a 500 is a small step up over the 450/475's.
I think the 577 is a big step up over a 500 and the 600 is a step up over the 577.

To me it is pure physics.

So for the hunter, you must ask yourself how much "physics" you can carry and shoot well.

Personally I just don't get the massive power concept. If there isn't going to be an element of danger in a D/G hunt it kind of defeats the purpose in my (humble) opinion.

A reasonable caliber and loading for the hunt should suffice. Shot placement as we all know is really what's key.

If one is afraid to run the risk of dealing with a charge one should reconsider why they are there.

so according to this thread...

if you can reach the brain, anything that can pierce a buff scull is a stopper and the bigger the better for a "turner"

so rifles should be labeled as brainers or turners???

but an all around d.g. cart can do both well.

so a 404 jeffery/416 taylorish rifle is the best middleground for this argument if it is the largest bore you can shoot well under preasure.

the placement people get the tip of the hat here...

bell and his 7mauser are smiling...

being that almost any reasonable cart can pierce a buff skull should we stop using the term stopper and replace it with d.g. guns???

p.s. i just like the straight cased 500 better

kinda reminds me of a big 45-70

I find that there is a considerable difference in game reaction to the shot when one steps up to the .500 caliber rifles.

As far as stopping a buffalo charge I can tell you from experience that the brain is not always going to be an option.

But to say that you cannot stop a charging buffalo with anything other than a brain CNS is just plain wrong.

You can damn well turn and or stop a buffalo with shoulder shot. A bullet that goes all the way through and hits the pelvic girdle on the way out is a show stopper as well.

If you don't have a brain shot for whatever reason or if you miss the brain a bigger heavier bullet is better. But once again it boils down to what you shoot best.

Carmello,

Did you ever post any pictures of that HUGE buff you reportedly shot out of season in Botswana last year? And with your .45-70 right?

I must say that with ANY animal charge, a brain shot is the only shot that is guarenteed to save your bacon. IMHO you are better off to wait until the last instant, to almost the bbl touching the head, before you shoot. If you hit the brain it is 100%. Anything less and you might be injured.

I base my "Theory" on shooting 2 dogs, one Gorilla, and 5 elephants [3 elephants at 6 YARDS OR LESS].

hmmmmmm....

so is it better to have 2 shots of 500 nitro or a few more in 50-110??? (525@ 2000) i think i like 6 rounds of 50-110 over 2 in 500 nitro...and i like the 500 nitro...

or how about the 50 beowulf in an ar15 500@1600??? as fast as you can pull the trigger

how much velocity will you compromise for more rounds if you take out style and tradition if you are just say hiking through the selous and needed a sh!# hit the fan gun and did not need to post about using a fancy double and taking pics???

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
hmmmmmm....

so is it better to have 2 shots of 500 nitro or a few more in 50-110??? (525@ 2000) i think i like 6 rounds of 50-110 over 2 in 500 nitro...and i like the 500 nitro...

Boom stick, how many of those six rounds will you get off in a real charge? Two? three?

quote:

or how about the 50 beowulf in an ar15 500@1600??? as fast as you can pull the trigger

How many of these will you get off in a charge? Two? Three?

quote:

how much velocity will you compromise for more rounds if you take out style and tradition if you are just say hiking through the selous and needed a sh!# hit the fan gun and did not need to post about using a fancy double and taking pics???

There is a big difference in SHOOTING cape buffalo, and stopping a charge, and the double rifle of a proper chambering is the best game in town, for that purpose. The simi-auto is not legal for a client hunter, and durring a charge the two rounds you get off, with an under powered cartridge, will do less than two rounds of a proper cartridge. The 48 rounds left in the magazine of the Biowulf, will do your dead body no good at all! Double rifles, and proper cartridges are not just tredition,or posts on AR, but they are used because they work, better than anything else for charge stopping! Of course, a mini gun on a chopper, or mounted on the bakki, so you can stay away from those horns long enough to get off all those rounds, would be an advantage, but it wouldn't be called hunting!

I suppose this discussion is theoretical only, except for the guys who will sneak to within 10 yards of their game before shooting.

No comment on lever actions.

quote:

I base my "Theory" on shooting 2 dogs, one Gorilla, and 5 elephants [3 elephants at 6 YARDS OR LESS].

My "theory" is based on actually stopping a charging buff at spiting distance with my .470NE two years ago in the Dande.

I'll say it again, you only always have an opportunity to make a brain shot in Tarzan movies and Sullivan videos.

While a brain shot is preferable. Sometimes it's just not an option. And when that happens you've got to hit major bone to get a turn or a stop and you have to be using an adequate caliber when you do it to have any effect.

macd37...

just theoretical...

if i do cape buff i will use a double or a SERIOUS lever action. yes i know the beowulf and the ar15 is not legal, just a theoretical argument of rounds vs power.

almost had a charging rattlesnake today, while i was hiking i scared one in the tall grass and he stuck his head up shaked his rattle and moved twards me in a menacing way...i would have liked a double then...