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Andy #3, Very cool sir. Hat's off to your father!! Man, we should all be so fortunate to be shooting 500NE doubles at wild buffalo when we are 80 years old. I'm impressed to say the least!!  | |||
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 +1 for the unscoped rifle. Both great hunts but getting in close is so much more intense. love those shorty Merkel's. | |||
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Looks like "both" is winning.  | |||
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I really do not know how much hunting you have done, but from the above and some of your other responses, I doubt that you have much African hunting experience. Be that as it may, YOU decide how to hunt, and don't let other hunts influence your behaviour in the field. After hunting in Africa for 30 years, this is precisely how I see it. | |||
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OK Todd let’s get into it here – this is going to be fun. I think I hit a sore point – because you know I’m right and you shouldn’t have been taking that risky first shot in video B. Let me remind you - from you own testimony and video documentation - that your hunting actions (and your PH’s) created a wounded buffalo, a wounded buffalo that suffered for an additional hour, as you continued to shoot it up, while it was fighting for its life. Now, I’m glad you posted video B, because it shows how NOT TO HUNT. I’ll respond to your comments. You state…“your chasing a Tahr to the point of exhaustion with a helicopter!” Todd, YOU WERE NOT THERE – you were not an eye witness, and you have no clue what happened on that hunt or how the hunt was conducted. You’re the one smoking weed, making up bullshit. Besides what does a totally legal tahr hunt in NZ have to do with this thread. You state…“By the way, brush did not deflect the first shot. I placed it about 3 inches to far to the left of where it should have been, but it did go exactly where I aimed, and entered the animal making a straight entrance wound, thereby no deflection.” This is more bullshit. How do you know? You admitted to shooting through the “thick bush” and it was apparent you did so in the video. Did you check every branch for bullet marks? I don’t think so - in the video you went off chasing the wounded buffalo. You also state your bullet went exactly where you aimed it – if true, that means you deliberately wounded this buffalo, which is totally unethical!! You’re the one smoking weed. I've heard of some people doing this to deliberatly to provoke a charge - were you doing that? You state…“why you felt so ashamed of your actions that you deemed it necessary to remove all the pictures and all of your comments concerning the way you herded and chased those Tahr to the point of exhaustion, just before you got out of the chopper to snipe them?” Todd, again I must remind you, you were not there – you don’t know what happened. It’s impossible for you to know. You’re making all the BULLSHIT up. I did not post any details, just a photo of the tahr and helicopter coming to pick us up after the hunt was completed. I removed the pictures because that topic area is not representative of all New Zealand hunters. I don’t want to deal with a small unrepresentative group of very opinionated people, who’ve usurped that topic area. If more people representative of NZ hunting join in and post, I’ll repost my photos, such that a more balanced discussion results. I will stand by my claim – the thick bush shot was UNETHICAL AND clearly resulted in an INHUMANE result - you documented the whole episode very well. You state…“I enjoyed both of the hunts depicted, but certainly felt Video B was just about perfect in terms of how I imagine a buffalo hunt should go down. As I said earlier, I can only hope the next will be as exciting.” From this statement of yours, apparently, you enjoy wounding buffalo and putting them through HELL, before they finally die, after an hour of suffering being shot even more. I don’t enjoy wounding animals and seeing them suffer like this. I believe strongly in making humane kills. It comes from having respect for the game and other living things. This is were you and I differ and why we're having this argument. You state…“Anyone who disagrees is entitled to their opinion.” Todd, you started this thread - YOU ASKED! This is my opinion, I’m sorry you don’t like it. You state…“UNETHICAL and INHUMANE are labels reserved for deliberately taking action to cause suffering to an animal.” Obviously, stupidity and taking careless, unnecessarily risky shots can cause “undue pain and suffering to that buffalo.” You documented it well. You state…“…the intent was of course to kill it straight from the beginning.” Todd, I suggest hunting a bit more, being patient, and waiting until you have a clearer shot next time – a shot more likely to be kill shot. You state…“…Tahr being herded and chased to the point of exhaustion before you stepped off the chopper and shot it?” Again I must remind you, you were not there, you were not a witness, you have NO clue what happened. You’re making all this bullshit up. This is not an effective argument – making shit up to suit yourself. You state...“…you must have had second thoughts concerning your actions because you were shamed into removing all reference to the hunt and your defense thereof. Did you forget about herding and chasing the animals to exhaustion, then hiding the evidence?” No evidence was hidden. I went on a tahr hunt in NZ and the outfitter used a helicopter to transport us to and from the hunt area. Are you clairvoyant? You don’t know my thoughts reasons for doing this or that…don’t try to read my mind…you can’t. I stated above why I removed it. I want a fair and balanced discussion. Besides I'm not a New Zealander and will have no effect on their customs and policies. How they conduct their hunting is there business. I want to stay out of it. You state…“… I also did a NZ hunt last year.” What you decided to do in NZ is irrelevant. Except you're obviously trying to deflect the topic to something else. Or maybe you thick the best defense is to attack. You know YOU'RE WRONG and you have too much pride to admitt - be a man!! (By the way I’m flattered you track my posts around this forum, sorry to say, I don’t track yours). | |||
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I consider that I have hunted many Elephant, Buffalo, Leopard and Lion BUT have only killed a few. The ones I kill have to be from an enjoyable hunt, be it day 1 or 14. The harder the hunt the more rewarding. A Buff taken on the evening of day 14 of a 14 day Safari. Very enjoyable!  | |||
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I just want to make sure this does not get edited.
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Saeed, my posts are going to stay. But, I may correct some typos or add a few lines to make my points absolutely clear. Besides this is very likely to be my final post on this topic - I believe I've made my points and people will decide how they conduct their own hunts. I can say that hunters and gun owners are under fire and very close scrutiny, and how we conduct ourselves is very important to the future of our hobby. I don’t like what happened in Kenya and recently in Botswana. Regards, AIU | |||
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AIU, There is so much wrong with your response that it would take a novel to counter each point. In a word, you and I have a VERY different view of what is considered "hunting" and what is simply "shooting". I've read many of your posts in the past and almost always am in 100% disagreement with you, right down to that "beanfield rifle" you use for DG hunting. I mean, really, a coffin magazine and bipod on a rifle designed for buffalo hunting? Obviously, the long range stand off sniping type of buffalo hunt is your cup of tea whereas mine is to close the distance and use a more traditional weapon, void of the wiz bang gadgetry. Your insistence on stating what SCI award your trophies measured for and asking others the same is another difference between us. Hand in hand with the 'hunting in close' vs 'long range stand off shooting' and "SCI Gold Medal" vs "not being a tape measure kind of guy" are indicators to me that you are simply a shooter, not a hunter. But we could have discussed those differences as gentlemen without the personal insults in labeling my preferred methods as unethical and inhumane. Yea, you hit a sore spot by accusing me of such. Whatever my faults and differences may be in how I like to hunt, I take great pride in pursuing game ethically and never seek to prolong an animal's suffering. I finished the animal off the very first chance I had to do so. Furthermore, answer me this, if I was attempting to wound the animal with the first shot, why did I attempt a quick second shot while it fled? To wound it some more? Or is it more realistic to state what actually happened in that I was trying to end the hunt right then and there. Now, the fact that buffalo become battle tanks when they get their adrenaline up and often require a challenging follow up, is one of the reasons I love hunting them. They aren't push overs! For me, that's one of the attractions of DG hunting in the first place! I know you would love to separate the NZ issue from this thread, but it goes to the heart of the matter. Rest assured, the very reason I remember your NZ hunt report is because I was leaving to do the same hunt shortly after you posted yours, but with a different outfitter. At the time, I was deeply engaged in often heated discussions with the local Kiwis over the Heli Hunting issue and why they had been unable to change the laws to reflect the majority's ethics. I cared about the local issues and took the time to educate myself on them. However, even before understanding the Heli Hunting issue, I never considered the use of a helicopter to herd animals into a state of exhaustion as being ethical and I refused to participate in it. We all know how those hunts are conducted so don't blow smoke up our collective asses by attempting to tell us differently. Say what you will, but if you had pride in the way you conducted yourself on that hunt, there is absolutely NO WAY you would have ever removed the report and pictures. Simply stated, you were ashamed of yourself, and for good reason! Now, the exact reason I remembered your hunt report so vividly is that at the time of posting it and reading your attempts to defend yourself in the thread, it struck me that you are either very inexperienced or completely unethical as a hunter! For you now to accuse me of the same is preposterous and downright laughable! Your comments about my unintentionally misplacing the first shot on the buffalo in Video B, as Saeed hit upon, shows a lack of hunting experience. If you hunt enough, eventually, you will misplace a shot or even miss. Hunt enough and you'll wound and lose an animal as well, despite your best efforts. To state otherwise betrays your lack of experience. To cover that with accusing a man of being unethical is frankly lacking of class. I've posted Video B previously. That thread ran it's course. As I stated then, the shot should have gone inside the shoulder but due to the angle the bull was standing, I misjudged the placement and put it just outside the point of the shoulder, taking out one lung. If necessary, I'll produce a picture showing the entrance wound. Again, showing your lack of experience with hunting big game, yes, you can often tell if the bullet struck the animal after being deflected by the shape of the entrance wound. It is not necessary to "check each and every limb". If the bullet flies cleanly, the entrance wound will typically be round, depending on the angle of the shot. A raking shot will displace the entrance hole, but it will not be keyholed as it will when deflected. The entrance wound did not show brush deflection and to say I stated shooting through brush is to take my comments out of context. There was a clear opening through which to shoot. If you'll notice, this buffalo was quite small in terms of horn size and body size. Actually a bit of a dwarf. The other buff, standing just to the left, was a very nice bull approaching if not exceeding 40" in horn spread. But I did not shoot that one, and Blake my PH, who I consider to be Top Notch in every way, did not instruct me to shoot the larger one, specifically because he WAS covered in brush and there was no ability to hit him with a clean shot. Now I'm done with this tit for tat with you. I don't come to this site for personal attacks. I prefer to debate and discuss topics in a gentlemanly fashion unless and until I'm attacked. The purpose of this thread was to expand and advance the discussions conducted in threads on the forum over the past week to 10 days or so which started with commentary on the lastes Sullivan DVD. If you honestly think Video B displayed unnecessary exposure to danger, so be it. I can accept that opinion. But a gentleman would state that opinion without inflammatory personal attacks. The next statement is obvious so I'll let it go unsaid! | |||
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Todd; thanks for sharing your video hunts, I did enjoy them, nice shooting. I did chose B simply because I do enjoy the close chase the tracking of the animal and shooting it at a very close distance rather than sniping at it from far away. That is why for the best part of my hunting experience I used to hunt with hand gun (revolvers 7 1/2" and under). I wanted to have the real experience and feeling of tracking down the animal on its own grounds and terrain, being challenged to the uttermost to study it closely and learn its behavior and habits, maximizing his chances and minimizing mine. It was and still is a lot of fun, enjoyment and satisfaction. Have I ever thought I was exposing myself to dangerous encounters, I did not think so, I had the ultimate confidence in my 454 Casull and in my marksmanship. Now where the possibilities of encountering danger there, heck yes when you are in pitch darkness out there walking alone in the unfamiliar mountains of VT after black bear and deer, being only armed with your revolver and your hunting knife. So when I started to think seriously about Africa I chose the open sighted doubles because it resembles hand gun hunting in many ways and means and it would bring me much closer to my quarry. I would not have it any other way, otherwise why would I travel to Africa and go after cape buffalo (my favorite African DG) I would go after the bison we have her and still have the joy and fulfillment of using my hand guns or I can snipe my deer, NA animals of at few hundred yards. Of course I will be missing out on experiencing Africa, well thank God I don’t have too I can still have my cake and eat it too by choosing B again. Now did I snipe yes last one was a 225yd shot at a doe with my ultra accurate 257 Wby Mag that toppled it down like a bowling pin, not even a twitch. did I enjoy it yes but not as close or as much as I enjoyed the next shot with my 4 3/4" 454 Casull revolver (always I keep my revolver in a cross draw holster no matter what I am doing while I am hunting) an hour or so later at a 7 point buck at a mere 25yds while washing my hands at the nearby small creek after finishing gutting my previously shot doe. Best regards Malek Good shooting/hunting and God's best. Best regards Malek Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best. | |||
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Bloody hell, and this comment is coming from someone who rides a helicopter to kill his animal. Not much for me to say there. | |||
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Andy #3, Very cool sir. Hat's off to your father!! Man, we should all be so fortunate to be shooting 500NE doubles at wild buffalo when we are 80 years old. I'm impressed to say the least!! [/QUOTE]+1 Hey Todd I wouldn't have said it any better using my own words. but I have to add though I liked it even more seeing that he was using a Sabatti double, well regardless of the caliber.  Best regards Malek Good shooting/hunting and God's best Best regards Malek Good Hunting/Shooting and God's best. | |||
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+1 Hey Todd I wouldn't have said it any better using my own words. but I have to add though I liked it even more seeing that he was using a Sabatti double, well regardless of the caliber. Best regards Malek Good shooting/hunting and God's best[/QUOTE] HaHa Malek. With all appropriate nods to our previous jousts!!  But isn't Andy's video of his father great! Man I wish I could take my father but at 88 and now failing health, it's too late. He couldn't have done it at 80 though either. I'm amazed Andy's dad his handling that big gun and doing the hikes for real wild buff at that age. More power to him!!  | |||
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How about Game, set and match to Saeed and Todd Williams !!! Ackley Start YOUR OWN thread instead of screwing up Todd's thread which was a good discussion until you came along. If AR posters want to discuss what you want to discuss, they will post in YOUR THREAD, if not, it will die a slow death. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Great advice. And don't deleted your hunt report just because someone objected to it either. | |||
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The .416 or that sweet-shooting .338? | |||
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I didn't kill an animal from a helicopter. Not much for me to say there. Is it asking too much, to request that you use facts back-up your positions. | |||
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Why did you delete your hunt in New Zealand? | |||
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This is a snippet from an Australian Outfit that pretty much sums it up for me; Classic Buffalo Safaris PDF Print E-mail Hunting big game like water buffalo is an exciting experience. We try to enhance that experience by offering our clients the chance to hunt buffalo with our double rifles. The classic way. Hunting buffalo with a large caliber double rifle is a fantastic experience that is hard to beat. Anyone can stand back at 100 yards or more with a scoped bolt action rifle and make a killing shot. But to stalk right in close to 50 yards and less, 40, 30, 20 yards and take a bull with a double rifle.....this is real hunting. During the later months of the year, November, December and from January through till April, the rainy season creates an environment that is just perfect to hunt buffalo at close range. The regular overnight rains allow us to find fresh tracks every morning and follow them. And we know that the bull will not be too far in front of us. The other thing the rainy season does is enhance the growth of grass so by January the grass is tall and allows us to stalk in close. The wet ground and undergrowth also softens our footfall which also makes it easier to get closer still! Perfect for double rifle hunting. We provide double rifles in 470NE. This is a proven buffalo cartridge and also quite manageable to shoot accurately. If you want a great hunting experience rather than a shooting experience, then use one of our double rifles and come hunt a buffalo in the wet season of the Northern Territory. Buffalo hunting with a double rifle.... Double the fun! Australia Wide Safaris Carmor Plains Wildlife Reserve | |||
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Ozhunter, I hunted with Australia Wide Safaris last December and shot my Buffalo at 30 yards but I used a bolt action, I could have used Matt's 470 NE double but had no experience with a double and didn't want to mess up. I chose option B as I also prefer getting up close and personal. Charl Schoeman Professional Hunter and Outfitter e-mail : charl@sainet.co.za tel : +2783 651 7433 | |||
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Buffalo...... The greatest game of all. I eat, sleep, dream, think of, prepare for, design bullets for, rifles, cartridges, all around the "Mighty Buffalo"... Everything, including elephant is secondary to Buffalo. I don't know exactly how I got this way, as it was not in the beginning of my shooting career. But over the years it has most certainly become so. Simply said, I love hunting buffalo, but I love shooting them more. What Saeed said on the very second post of this thread is true of all of us that have pursued the mighty beast... These few words ring so very true of one who has been there and done it. While I have not done as many as Saeed, YET.. I am still in pursuit of, and in each case there are valid reasons, many variables that will come into play that will fall within one of Saeeds statements, if you are in the field long enough in pursuit of old buff!
Saeed, thank you so much for these statements. I have done each of these, including jumping out of the truck and starting a battle. I have also sniped, Murdered in fact, a buffalo at 90 yards. This was an old buff, the oldest cape I have ever shot. In fact, my favorite cape buffalo of all time. There was a short stalk, and no way to get closer without spooking him, we were in the open, and he could see us, but yet not close enough to worry him. And while this is my favorite old cape buffalo, in color, age, and the shape of the horns, he is most certainly not the most memorable of "battles"..... I am a CQB sort of chap.... For those that are not shooters, "Close Quarter Battle"..... The closer I am, the happier I am, and further more, the more control I have of the situation at hand. Every scenario is different, but as a rule of thumb, if you are inside 25 yards and a CQB sort of chap, then by damned you have nearly 100% chance of getting a second, or third shot in before the first part of the battle takes a turn. It may be over at that point, but it very well may not be, regardless of how good your shots are, buff takes a lot to be impressed! Bigger is better. Get to 75 yards and those chances of getting a second shot in drop drastically, its harder to recover and get back on target, maybe buff has run into the bushes, into the herd, or just out of sight at this range, and the further you get, the chances start getting less of second shots.. Believe me, you don't shoot buff one time and sit to admire what a good shot you have made, you shoot until you cannot shoot again, or you are out of ammo, or the problem is solved, and then you shoot some more at first opportunity..... Naturally I voted B, as a preference. Oh, make no mistake, once that dance has been opened, its a battle from that point on. Its a damn rare thing that old buff takes a bullet and goes down for the count where he stands. Once that first round is fired, you are in a life and death struggle from that point forward, one or the other of you is going down. There is no choice in the matter once you open the dance! I have had several close quarter battles with buffalo, and I remember every detail of that hunt/Shoot. I have shot a few at 50-60 yards, and that is close to murder as well, but only one at 90 yards to open the dance. Vast majority have been well under 35, some as close as 15 on that opening shot, the dance begins. I am no trophy hunter, I have never measured a buffalo, or anything else for that matter, just not my game. Its the battle that is important to me. I have passed up longer shots at buffalo to get at another that was closer. Hell they all look good to me, its a good thing I have a PH with me at all times or I might shoot them all! Many times, PH has steered me in the other direction..... To keep me from shooting one or more..... HEH....... Things happen in the field that one has no control of. Brush is always a problem. I have shot several sticks in my day that caused me a problem and a few times on buffalo. I use a scope and even doing the best I can, one can still hit a piece of brush and not realize it, and the problem begins. No bullet is totally immune to brush. Regardless the dance has started, and you must finish it. As for your preferences on sights, that is up to the individual and nothing more. Irons, scope, red dot, none of that makes a difference, and there are no ethics involved in that at all, in fact, to suggest that one or the other is or is not ethical is just stupid, ignorant and a waste of time. To suggest a "One Shot Kill" is most preferable, that is inexperience with buffalo, while it is possible, who gives a damn about a "One Shot Kill", Hell I like to shoot, suit me to shoot them full of holes, why in the world would I want to tote all that weight in ammo around if I am not going to use it? I count Todd Williams a friend, and I know Todd well. To suggest that Todd did anything unethical is out of the question... There are things that happen in the field that one does not have control of, and they happen. I have even been pushed to shoot through brush by two different PH's! In each instance I argued against it, but in the end, did it anyway, even though I knew it might be a problem and in both of those instances IT WAS a problem and ended up with bullet deflection, and two wounded buffalo! In both cases, I solved the problem in the end myself, but I knew better, and did it anyway because of the PH's both insisting that I do so! Was I unethical because I listened to the PH's? Possibly, I knew better, I knew it could turn into an issue, but hell I did it. So if you want to call anyone unethical then I am your man! There are many things that can't be accounted for while in the heat of battle, that are easy to account for in the after battle report, but even then, you cannot simulate that moment in time again, and the reasons why things happen. Long or short, its your gig and you are paying the bills, and for me, if I could start by putting the muzzle on his head that would be good to me, but since that is not possible then I will just have to do the best I can by getting as close as I can to accomplish my mission. Close makes it more real..... Enjoy, there is nothing on the planet like putting bullet to buffalo! This year, first time in over 10 yrs I am taking a Lever Gun for buffalo and I think its going to be a blast............... Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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I chose "A" b/c an unaware, unstressed animal will provide meat that is more palatable, hopefully for local tribal folks. No lactic acid/adrenaline taint. As for killing such a a cape buffalo to merely use as "bait", not for me. Just sayin...no judgements. | |||
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The 416, but they are both sweet shooters! I borrowed his 338 for a reedbuck snipe, and his 416 for the Buffalo snipe. | |||
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You know, with North American game in particular, I agree, you are spot on. However, I have yet to taste a noticeable difference in African game. If there is a difference, it is slight. | |||
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Michael, Clearly, you understand buffalo hunting! 100% spot on my friend. Obviously from the videos posted, I've sniped them and hunted up close. Without a doubt, I remember the close contact hunts much more vividly. And as pointed out earlier, neither of the buff in the video are anything special from a trophy measurement standpoint. Like you, I've not measured any of mine. The one hanging on my wall, the first one, is maybe a smidge wider than his ears. I think that puts him about 35" but I couldn't care less. He was hard fought for! 3 days of dogging the small herd of 6 animals he was running with. Never saw them on day 2. Day 1, I had a shot opportunity and the trigger on my rifle disconnected as I attempted to shoot him. I've documented that episode well here on AR in the past. Then, finally on day 3, we found them on top of a small mountain covered in some of the thickest bush you can imagine. The PH worked us to within about 30 yards. All I could see of him was the left horn and an ear flick every now and again. Like you, the PH told me to shoot through the brush. Actually, he asked if I saw a certain odd colored leaf he described to me. When I said yes, he instructed me to shoot that leaf as it was covering his shoulder perfectly. I did so and all hell broke loose. Sounded like a hail storm on a tin roof. We froze in our tracks rapidly taking in the sounds in an attempt to discern whether they were coming or going. They were going! Relief! Then following him up, we worked our way into position to be on higher ground in case he charged, he would have "an uphill battle". 4 more well placed shots with the Rigby were necessary to finally get him off his feet, all delivered from within 25 yards. I couldn't believe how tough those things are, and I was immediately addicted to the thrill that is buffalo hunting. BTW, that first shot, taken with a 350gr Barnes TSX hit him just on the point of the shoulder and was found under the skin just in front of the opposite side hind quarter. Perfect placement and performance, yet he still required 4 more rounds! Tough SOB! So yeah, I've shot them at long range as well. Under the circumstances, which again was to clean up quota and move to a different concession where we were hunting bulls and sable, I'd probably do it again. But I doubt I'd choose the quick kill by shooting at a distance just because it was a 40" buff. I enjoy the hunt, the stalk, the matching of bush skills required to get up close and personal. As Fujo called them, "Ninjas"! I prefer to go home without but hunt them proper as Adam related above. Also, as stated in this thread, I've done just that. I could post several hours of Rich and I hunting buff bulls in Dande later on that same hunt, but never scoring a kill. The footage is good stuff. The two of us crawling on hands and knees, covered in dirt and sweat, with small herds of buff 40 or 50 yards distant. The sounds of them grunting. Unfortunately, no smell a vision as at that range, the cattle smell can be overwhelming. Just good stuff man! As Malek stated, he previously hunted with handgun because he liked the limits the weapon forced upon him. The same with my choice of using the double. In a way, it's the same appeal that the bow and arrow holds. The challenge of hunting, not simply shooting. The double, as with the open sighted big bore, is a traditional weapon used for over a hundred years in the pursuit of DG. The coffin boxed, bipod mounted, "beanfield" rifle is not. AIU, I have neither the time nor inclination to read your inexperience inspired drivel. As I stated in my previous response to you, I've tired of your kindergarten level antics. I doubt you've found much support here for your position, just as you found no support for herding animals with a helicopter before shooting. Your are a shooter, not a hunter. With more experience, one day, you might get it. I hope you do, then you can join the ranks. Surely, the poll numbers do not support your position even remotely. You may continue to respond should you wish but clearly, the discussion on this thread is not centered on your childish remarks as most have stayed on topic. I stand 100% on my comments to and about you! For all the others, thanks for participating in this discussion and sharing your thoughts and opinions. As Andy#3 did, feel free to post some video of your hunts. I always enjoy watching a fellow's hunt. That's the reason I post mine; the hope that others will enjoy viewing them. | |||
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Hooker has the same feelings about Bushpigs and feral swine, but for somewhat different reasons :-) | |||
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.........................................................................  AI the above whole post is simply bull sh~t! I sincerely doubt you have ever seen a wild Cape buffalo, and if you have and never had one take several shots to finish you are the luckiest shooter in Africa! I've seen buffs take eight or ten shots, all right through the boiler room, from both the client and the PH at close range before he was stopped! They sometimes simply refuse to die, and Todd was lucky this buff "CHOSE" to Run rather than to "DIE"! As far as Todd not knowing whether his bullet was deflected or not, he knew where he aimed and where the bullet hit, so what do you base your theory on to say he didn't know if it was deflected? He simply misjudged where the vitals lay. I say you are wrong and your opinion that Todd purposely wounded that buffalo to try to get a charge is just a stupid lie, and I believe you purposely said that to get a rise, and you don't believe it either IMO!! ......................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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It is only in the last two or three years that many people are talking about shooting DG up close with open sights and doubles and that being the best way.When I first started hanging on AR no one did it this way even the ones that had been to Africa many times.These same people come on here now and tell everyone it is THE way of going about it.Why did not they buy a double back then? Why did not they use open sight on many of there safaris? It seems they are coming on here now and telling everyone how it should be done when they where using their big bores with scopes back then and they seemed they could not care how they went about taking DG then.IMO,that is why some of these guys do not show any of their hunt videos and pretend they do not like videos...Today they are of the same gang and are telling us which bullets to use and if anyone does not agree they are constantly attacked and harassed.Some people go to Africa only once and get it right the first time because they do things the way THEY feel it should be done and not because everyone else is doing it. I read now that one fellow wants to put the barrel to the head of DG and shoot but did he do it that way on all the many other times he was there? What a joke this crowd is. | |||
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Shootaway I think you are sprouting BS again. More people have open sighted doubles now than before. I know plenty of people who went hunting in Africa (and Aus) who used open sighted guns - bolts and doubles. Videos How about the fact that video is now available on mobile phones and video cameras have come down in price substantially so more people have them. As opposed to people not wanting to show them - although after seeing what Todd had to endure, why would you want to show a video ! Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Interesting conversation ... well, most of it.  It's safe to agree, almost overwhelmingly, that getting close to Buffalo is fun. That is where the excitement is. But this sets up the inexperienced, or first timer for possible disappointment, because that isn't always the way it turns out. The problem lies in the trophy expectation. If you want something at the top of what is reasonable, a trophy of above average quality for the area, you must take the opportunity when it presents itself! If you want to get in close and hunt Buffalo, then get close and take the shot on the best animal you can find when it presents itself. You can sometimes have it both ways, but it is unreasonable to always expect that you can take a top notch trophy up close on every Buffalo hunt. Do you want a trophy of above average proportions, or do you want the experience of getting close? Most all ph's will work their ass off to give you both, but don't pout when he tells you to shoot one across an open flood plane at 125 yards. And for crying out loud, don't pull the trigger then come home and complain to me that the ph made you shoot a Buffalo at 100 yards on the third day of a 10-day hunt! Stepping off soapbox now ... | |||
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If they have an open sighted rifle now it is because they are trying to be like those that showed them how its done. | |||
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BTW, is it ok to shoot Buffalo from a helicopter as long as you get reeeeeel close?  | |||
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Wendell The problem is, when you try to hover they run so you might be real low but you are moving !!! LOLPreviously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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I give more credit to the people on here than that. With the subject of scopes / open sights, I see the subject of eye sight cropping up as to the main reason for using a scope. Previously 500N with many thousands of posts ! | |||
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Wendell, Those comments are 100% spot on as well. I've not taken an exceptional buffalo to date. But I've had the opportunity to hunt them up close and that is much more important for me. I've had a hell of a good time doing it. For me, and this is only for me, stretching the tape means very little. That is probably a minority view however, considering what buff bull hunts cost today. The one time I insisted on getting a 40" buff, is the hunt mentioned in this thread where I didn't connect as I was dead set on doing it up close with the double. It's a trade off for sure and one has to decide what the priority is for the individual hunter. If I were advising a client, or a PH speaking with a newly arrived hunter, that would be the first thing I'd want to know. Do you want the tops in terms of trophy measurement, or do you want to maximize the hunt experience? As you said, they don't have to be mutually exclusive, but they often are! Good advise you gave there. | |||
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If a guy or lady hires a safari company in pursuit of any species (cape buffalo) it is up to him on how he or she chooses to dispatch it. It is their money!!! A discussion on the correct method is madness. I think this is more of a discussion on virility. I have always contended that there are more "manly men" out there than those professing in these discussions. What about the guy that goes and sticks a Buffalo with archery equipment. He will think the close range double guys are a bunch of cowards. Or the spear chucker that laughs at the archer or some guy that Tarzan's a Buffalo with a swiss army knife (I would like to meet him...)  | |||
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I know Todd is an intelligent, rational and ethical individual. Anyone who would suggest otherwise is simply an ass. I'd hunt with him anytime, anywhere. As to hitting brush, well it is usually not known until the video can be reviewed. In 2011 I hit a decent branch when shooting my Ele. Didn't know it until an AR member caught it in the video. It had no effect on the .458Lott BBW#13 solid, which hit POA and penetrated straight, dropping the Ele I have hunted both Tahr and Chamois on the South Island in the N.Z. Alps during the Winter. Didn't need a helicopter to herd 'em. Iron sights v. optics? Make your silly-assed comments after you've lived another 35 years and find that even with corrective lenses you are unable to focus on the three points. In my experience, most AR participants are intelligent and reasonable folks who are very opinionated - type A - but who are willing to accept a difference of opinion. But, as we learned in school, there are always exceptions to the rule. AIU and the idiot from the north apparently prove the rule. I wouldn't share a campfire with either of them and have no hesitation about so stating. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Amen. | |||
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