ScottS,
Last month my 12 year old grandson shot a Bison in the heart/lungs with a Corebon soft, and a fN solid with a 50 Beowolf at 100 yards,a 500 gr. plus bullet at a muzzle velocity of 1850 FPS plus a tad....That old Bull stood just out of range for 20,25 minutes or so dieing we thought, but then took off to our surprise and I tracked him in below 0 weather with a high wind blowing snow over his tracks and blood, sweeping off the top layer of snow with sage brush to find the blood trail that was very faint as blood freezes...A mile of so later we found that bull and once again my disgust for the big slow moving bullets surfaced..I damn near froze to death on that track....and I assure all that his next Bison will be shot with a 200 gr. Nosler from a 30-06 and mine with a .470 or 416....I have seen Bison and elk shot with the 45-70, 45-90 and have never been impressed. I pay little heed to these wonderful praises of these calibers by folks who only surmise and apparantly never used them to any great extent, and only repeat the mutterings of such as Randy Garrett and his faboulous sales speech....

Corcano,
As to the velocity VS heavy bullet arguement, I have no such intention of intering into this debate as it has nothing to do with this dispute.....For light bodied, high strung game like deer I like velocity, for big undulants I like heavier bullets at less velocity...penitration is best at 2400 to 2600 IMO and sufficient at 2100, but becomes less stable as you go beyond say 2700 approach 3000 FPS.....

These figures changed with the advent of better bullets, it seems as though some cannot accept change, but super premiums and monolithics HAVE changed the whole picture......

It seems that most want a flat outright answer to all of these questions and there is none as you will get varied reactions in killing of game...What you do is stay with moderation, just like anything else it works,and the guys at opposite ends can argue till the hogs come home and nothing is solved, nor do these discussions make since....

Moderation in this case, at least for Cape Buffalo is a 375 H&H and up to a 470....The 45-70 is not viable and the 500 are too much in recoil for most, so my suggestion is take the middle road and choose a 400 gr. bullet at 2400 FPS with a SD of .300.....With a monolithic a 300 gr. bullet at 2700 FPS will certainly work and I have seen Saeed do wonders with just such a combination....DG calibers begin and end with sectional density, a bullet that is 2.5 times longer than its cross section....In other words a 400 gr. 458 is not in the same killing class as 500 gr. 458 that penitrates further, but again the monolithic changes this picture to a degree but not all together, therefore a 450 gr. monolithic 458 will indeed kill with the alacrity of a 500 gr. conventional bullet, either soft of solid as they are,by nature of the metal,the same length....

Thats where the smart money goes unless you can truly handle the recoil of the 500s, few can, many claim they can.....buy if one can cope with that hanieous recoil then the bigger the better with Buffalo and elephant.

Well I'd say they're all wrong! I'd never lower myself to drinking warm gin.

Pettson

Bill,

Your assumption may in fact be true. I do know this though, and I am damned proud of this fact, I don't fit either of your pathetic groups of "hunters".

Sadly I know many that fit your group #1 and group #2. Personally, though I do not consider them hunters! Hunting in my book has nothing to do with paying some pro to find your game for you, or sitting in a tree all day long freezing to death on the edge of a corn field. Just my opinion.

The 45-70 rifle debate, to me again, is simply just a personification of the lack of hunting skill/knowledge of BOTH of your "groups". Again, just my opinion.

Scott

Scott

Just out of curiosity, what qualifies as hunting in your book? Secondly, what qualifications to you have to judge the hunting activities of others?

I don't think the choice of a 45-70 or other cartridge has anything to do with hunting skill. On the knowledge issue, one can sometimes learn something in the forums/debates if they keep an open mind. Arguing about guns and calibers is a lot like arguing religion or politics, you can't really win, but what the hell, i'ts fun.

My position in the 45-70 debate? I hunt a lot with a souped up 45-70 double rifle. Use it every chance I get. However, I also use my .375 H&H, .458 Win. Mag., and my .577 BPE double. Shouldn't admit it in this forum, but I've been known to use a .270, 30-06, and the greatest hunting cartridge of all, the 22 long rifle. I'm also in the market for a .450 nitro class of double.

Dave

Here's the thing I don't understand. If we are going to lament a Lever gun why not discuss one with some real torque like the 50 Alaskan or better yet a 510 Kodiak Express ? Not the commercialized down sized 45-70 factory loads.

nopride2,

Your handle doesn't seem to fit. I hunted western Washington as a boy. Never used no tree stand, did not even know what one was till I came back east. I haven't seen a hunter out here in years. Plenty of shooters, well kinda shooters, but not too many hunters. Will meet an occasional hunter down in the mountain states of south. I go to Cabela's, Bass Pro Shop, etc primarily for comic relief. The camo department brings tears to my eyes. Sent block, don't get me started.

The African hunter is just like many Alaska hunters. They are tourist hunters. By law they cannot hunt, they can only shoot! Meaning, that by law, they are required to hire a professional hunter, who with his staff, will locate game animals for them to shoot. The reason seems to be both economical, PH fees funnel cash into local economies, and safety driven (many tourist "hunters" are not what they think they are). Sorry if the truth hurts.

Really love the "dangerous game hunter" who shoots from 200 yards, too. I only know of one animal on earth that can be dangerous at 200 yards, or even 50 yards for that matter, and it doesn't walk on 4 legs! Get within 50 yards of that big brownie, and make sure he knows your there, before you touch one off. That is DANGEROUS game hunting. It is also SPORTING, because if you miss the brownie wins!

Scott

Scott

What do you hunt and how. Your on the pulpit preaching like a southern Baptist minister, but what are your qualifications to judge another man's hunting? Providing. of course, he hasn't crossed legal or ethical boundries. If the law requires a local guide/PH, that's the way it is. I can't change it, or a lot of other things in life, so I don't waste my time worrying about it.

Some times a 200 yard shot is all you get. If your a good enough shot, take it. If not, pass.

Dave

Speaking of comic relief, that would be your thought process which is really not very organized and rather childish. I would venture to say that not even you can stand up to your own "standards". Your "standards" are nothing more than an ego driven pissing contest.

Anybody can hide behind a computer and talk down to people. Society is far too tolerant of the pathetic likes of you.

I hope you show some maturity and refrain from posting here too often because pedantic know nothings like you can ruin an otherwise good board.

.

Well, call me a dumb southern boy from Alabama. I do have to admit that the heaviest game I am ever likely to hunt is my neighbors sick horse that is on the verge off dying and they just can't stand to watch it anymore....otherwise it is those tough and wily, dangerous 120 pound whitetails that I hunt mosly with a 44 Magnum, but I have persuaded myself to once again shoot the little beasties with a 45-70 having done this successfully in the past, always while stalk hunting of course. For the uninitiated the hits are obvious and unmistakeable. That said, there is one thing I do not understand about this so called controversy....(it could to me only be controversial if i had some emotional stake in it)

A good study of reloading manuals and factory ammunition ballistics will reveal that cartridges like the 454 Casuel, 480 Ruger, 475 Linebaugh: all revolver cartridges in their original design intent (do I sound enough non-southern now???) never produce velocities any greater than can be achieved with good 45-70 Trapdoor loads. Yet every type of game animal of the face of the earth has been taken with these revolvers, some say they were expressly designed for the task.

Even killing Cape Buffalo with 44 Magnum revolvers has been done and it is surely no equal to the 45-70 in any of its various loadings, perhaps with the exception of fast pistol powder loadings. If someone we knew were to under take the adventure of shooting the Big 4 (I do think it is 5 now) with one of the above said revolvers, the discussion would turn to loads, bullets, gun makers, etc. etc. etc.

Yet when we speak of the 45-70 as being, shall we say "Africa capable", it begins to sound like the proverbial "you ain't gonna kill no deerah with a pee-uny lil' .22", and every year there are dozens of folks who prove that wrong. There have as well been more than a few folks who have killed the Big 4 (or 5 as it may be) with that old and lowly but never down and out 45-70. People been talking about it's demise since the introduction of the 303 Savage and 30-30 Winchester. The 303 died 60 or more years ago, and had it not been for Winchester Model 94" and Marlin 336's the 30-30 would be dead too. The 45-70 meanwhile has been enjoying a market share resurgence over the last 30 years....and has remained in the top 30 reloading die sales for the last 50 years (quote of RCBS I believe)....hardly what one could call a dead cartridge, especially when it has outlived its nearest chamberings, things like the 450 Nitro Express and 405 Winchester...Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............

My opinion, if a fellow wants to do an immitation of "slow natives" (no harm, illwill or disrespect meant) let 'em. I'm sure as many have done the immitation armed with the likes of 416 Rigby's and 460 Weatherbys as have with 450 Nitro Expresses and 405 Winchesters. There will always be fools who capitalize on the ridiculous, and damn fools who think it was rather smart. there is a reason we call them dangerous game.

Do I think that a 45-70 is Cape Buff material???? If I were to find myself with one in hand while said bull or cow for that matter were sizing me up, it would be the best buffalo gun ever seen.

By the way, I enjoy my hunting evenings with a beer and bourbon thank you.

Well , now we see the caliber snobs try to turn this around and make out like joe whitetail hunter settin in his tree looks down on the globe-trotters ?



I hardly think that's the case . joe might be ENVIOUS of the globe trotters , but I hardly think he looks DOWN on them . Fact is , if joe had the time and money , he would maybe go to Africa himself . Fact is , I feel SOME of the globe trotters really look down on old joe and don't even consider HIM a fellow hunter .



No , what this is about , is some of the caliber snobs that can't stand to hear that a $400 Marlin might do the deed about as well as their 2 to 3 thousand and up custom jobs with the mythical minimum sectional density bullets costing $4 a piece . Or the guys with Winchesters that cost them the better part of a thou and another thou at the 'smith to get the dam thing to function .



Now we are told by an old African hand that to be fit to carry in the bush , your rifle and ammo must be enough to hammer an ele . Seems to me that leaves out alot of rifles and calibers that have seen many years of successful use in Africa.



Fact is , if folks were to cleanly take 10000 buff with 45/70 s , it wouldn't be enough to satisfy SOME of the caliber snobs .

I'm a farm-raised hunter myself who grew up working hard, and believe me, I'm no stranger to bedding down on hard ground. From my own personal perspective, this debate has nothing to do with snob appeal or anything like that.

When I get ready for a safari, I look upon the entire event as a serious investment of time and money, and in some cases personal risk. When it comes time to select equipment for these hunts, I ask myself just one thing: "Is this the best piece of gear I can come up with for the task at hand?"

By "best" (in this case, rifle & cartridge), I mean a rifle of high mechanical integrity, and a cartridge that'll comfortably and decisively perform on the animals I'll be hunting under all conditions that might be encountered.

So if I have the choice of going with a scoped, ultra-reliable bolt-gun in, say, .416 Remington or .458 Lott for dangerous game, or else choosing a lever gun in .45-70, I'll go with the bolt-gun every time.

You can define that selection any way you'd like........

AD

Allen........I don't put you in the snob category , nor do I see you or many of the other more experienced African hands constantly whining about the .45/70 issue . And if a man has the opportunity to build an excellent custom rifle and use it on alot of game I am all for him .



I am not a 45/70 fan , and would choose something different if going to Africa. However , I don't see the point in ragging on this issue . If it gives a man more pleasure to use a levergun instead of a .458 Lott , then I think that is what he oughta use . It is HIS hunting trip , HIS time and money invested , and HIS life on the line if things go south . There have been enough buff killed with modern 45/70 s to prove that it is not nearly as weak as some of these people make it out to be.



Hell , I believe I will choose a .458 if I ever get to Africa , just because many of these experts claim the caliber is so worthless.........

SD, thanks. I figured that was the perspective you were coming from.

If you do decide to go with a .458 Win. Mag., I think you'll find it's anything but "useless" if you approach 2100 fps. with good 500 gr. bullets.

AD

Did we not have a raffle for a 4570 buffalo hunt to be videoed last year in order to put this to bed once and for all? I have not seen the video but maybe some here have. Did said hunt take place? Any further info to clarify will be appreciated. "D"

SD

I'd think twice about a 458 Win. A great many gunwriters say it just bounces off game.

Dave

Well DB, you certainly paint a pretty picture of the hunting brotherhood, but an evening watching some of the hunting shows on TV certainly supports your claim to some degree, I doubt that it's important what some think of african hunters, those that ignorant are just jelous with envy and anyone of them would jump at the chance, so file that in file 13 where it belongs....And those who advocate sitting in a stand as unsportsmanlike are of the same ilk and are also ignorant beyond help, it is a method of hunting in areas where other methods mostly fail..I have done both and enjoyed both....but for the most part stand hunting of any kind is not my cup of tea, my energy level runs to high for that..

The Cape Buffalo IS simply some old cows calf, and certainly can do anyone bodily harm and continues to prove that every year by maiming and killing hunters...It rates No. 1 on the Dangerous Game list for whatever reason and I will not delve into the wheres or why fores of that..

As to the 45-70, I think it is safe to say that caliber has little to do with anything except to those simple souls that have no clue....What does make since is what is legal to shoot dangerous game with and most of these guns do not qualify nor should they...It has been proven time and time again that for big heavy animals a minimum of 2100 FPS, a SD of 275 and 9.3 caliber is the probable factor in a barely suitable Buffalo rifle...

I personally set my sights a bit higher to give myself the edge as I have seen M'Bogo in all his fury and it is quite startleing...I like 40 cal, 400 gr. bullet, 300 SD, and 2400 FPS or larger, and I have used the smaller calibers a lot and they are not my choice.

The arguement of the 45-70 is a no brainer to me, it should not exist, but if someone wants to take on a Cape Buffalo with a toothpick, I could care less, its there option and let them live with it....

As to the big bore black powder guns on Bison and elk, well these animals are not normally dangerous but they die hard and they are big strong animals and I consider these old guns unfit for them in my experience and I have used them on both and witnessed their use on both, and for the most part they are miserable with a few successes tossed in...Thats what I have seen and I suspect when the yeah seekers use them on real game, they too will come to the same conclusions, least they are BSing the crowd...they are great old guns and make very usuable deer rifles at close range...

A few like the 50-140 sharps can almost make the grade, but not quite for Cape Buffalo, probably fine for Bison....

BTW Phil Shoemaker just recently shot a nice bison bull with me, 3 shots behind the shoulder with a 458 Win. as it ran down a canyon, before it went down. Another by Allen Johnson with a big bore scoped and it made a lot of tracks, bison are tougher than hell if they are wild and not domesticated...See Allans report on the US hunting form here....bison can take as much killing as a Cape Buffalo and maybe more as they are much larger in structure and weight...

I can see 20 years from now, if any Cape buffalo are left to hunt then, that a .460 Weatherby is going to be woefully underpowered. As for the .45/70, didn't it work well enough on 30,000,000 American buffalo.
Ed

.

I always enjoy seeing the pics and reading the stories in the African Hunting forum....even though I'm not rich and just a lowly whitetail hunter.

Looks like that and a quarter couldn't even get me a bus ride with Bill though. Lucky me...

Anyone see the article from "RIFLE" magazine by Brian Pearce. He was shooting A Marlin Model 1895 .45-70 with Corbon 405 grain Flat Point Penetrator at 1800 fps from a 22 inch barrel.

When I read about the thru penetration on buffalo, in fact killing two on one side shot, I thought it doesn't seem possible. Years ago, the squib loads-performance that got people in trouble with the .458 Win Mag in Africa were thought to be between 1500-1800 fps.

I am definitely not a 45-70 fan but got to thinking that the flat penetrator shape of the bullet may be more important than the popular requirements for African Big Game Hunting, that is a SD of .31 and above and the nominal hunting requirement of 2250-2350 fps.

Anyone that can verify these results. In my choice of big bore rifles, I always have selected .45-.50 caibers with bullets with a SD of .30 and above and then tried to drive them above 2250 fps. When you get bullets of 7--800 grains, this becomes increasing difficult to do because of the recoil.

Is the bullet shape of the solids, the overiding factor for good penetration?????????

Dak

Dak,

The topic on the Brian Pearce article was the one that spawned the creation of this topic.

The Pearce RIFLE magazine article topic is here:
http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=557681

-Bob F.

nebraska......wish I were rich in things other than life's experiences. If you reread my initial post the thrust was many whitetail hunters look down on those that go to Africa, and not that we look down on them....although I do resent the condescending attitude of many of them especially as I grew up hunting white-tail in Pennsylvania.

P.S. No one rides a bus in Los Angeles ... don't you know we all drive Mercedes or BMWs and I'm still trying to place "Nebraska"....isn't that the flat part you fly over going from LA to NYC?

Nebraska, don't forget that a 45-70 is an illegal caliber as it does not generate sufficient energy to meet the minimum requirements for dangerous game.

So we are talking about not only whether a 45-70 is a legal caliber for dangerous game, but also whether we, as foreign hunting guests, should knowingly and willfully break the laws of another nation.

A Winchester or cz in .375 can be purchased for just $650, or you can rebarrel your favorite 30-06 to 9.3 x 62 to have a legal rifle. Compared to the total cost of a dangerous game safari, that is not too much to ask. Anyone who can afford to spend $10K plus on a safari but claims he cannot afford to upgrade from a $400 rifle to a $650 rifle is full of baloney.

Seems like the legallity of these calibers is kind of a moot point........seeing as how Pearce used the "illegal" rifle and then had the gall to proceed and write about it in a nationally published magazine .

I also seem to recall a few fellows have mentioned right here that they have taken cape buff with such things as 06 s and 300 mags.............

....and not a single comment in the entire thread about shot placement being the key. This exact same ridiculous thread occurs in other forums all over the internet. People moan and groan over whether a .270 with a 130gr bullet will be more effective than a .308 with a 150gr bullet. Will my .30-378 be enough for wild hogs under 100yds? I've been really disappointed in the performance of my .30-06, so I'm thinking og going with a .577 Tyrannosaur for south Texas whitetails this year....what do you guys think? Whatever. Threads that generalize like this one are so asanine that it boggles the mind. I'm not surprised it began in southern California, though.

Know your game. Know your terrain. Know your equipment. Shut up and put the bullet where it needs to go.

Ohh that last post was just too funny!

Just a note to one and all:

If you haven't read this book, then get a copy and read it! Available at Amazon.com

-Bob F.

Info below from Amazon's web site:

Ballistics in Perspective by Mike Lagrange
# Paperback: 76 pages ; Dimensions (in inches): 0.50 x 8.50 x 5.50
# Publisher: Professional Hunter Supplies; 2nd edition (February 1, 1990)
# ISBN: 096248072X


About the Author
Mike LaGrange, born in Southern Rhodesia, spent many years as a warden in Problem Animal Control for the Zimbabwe National Parks. Mike has shot over 6000 elephants and knows which calibers work.

Mike lives with his wife Cathy and children in Zimbabwe, and is currently involved in live animal capture. He met the publisher, Bill McBride, and became partners with him, producing ammunition under the name of "Professional Hunter Supplies". Mr McBride, who also ran safaris in Mozambique, was naturally interested in the guidelines set down here for prospective hunters.

BFaucett...

One question: Did he ever use a max-loaded .45-70 ? ? ?

45-70 doesn't pack enough velocity for african big game!

What a hammerhead!

.

I'm not buying your theory, and I never will.

Great numbers of African professional hunters and experienced client-hunters do not care for the .458 Win. Mag. because the .458's case capacity limits velocities to below optimum levels for consistent penetration. This is why cartridges like the .458 Lott, .450 Ackley, .460 Dakota, et al, were developed - to increase case capacity, and thus increase velocity, penetration, and performance.

Quite honestly, the .458 Win. mag. (checkered reputation and all) beats the dog crap out of the .45-70 from every standpoint of consideration, yet your'e trying to tell us that somehow 'less is more' and that the later out-performs larger, more capable cartridges. This is the complete opposite of what just about every competent, experienced authority on the subject has to say.

If we follow your logic straight down the line, then maybe it's like 500 grs. say - a .45 ACP should out-perform a .45-70!

AD

A solution to this debate.

If we rename the .45/70 a .450 2 1/2" Nitro Express and only talk about using it in an (Italian) Pedersoli Kodiak double rifle then the proponents with disappear like mist with the morning sun.

Of course then we will have endless discussions on why the .450 Marlin is superior. It must be as it's even slower than a .45/70, oops, a .450 2 1/2" Nitro Express.