Quote: I'm not buying your theory, and I never will.
Great numbers of African professional hunters and experienced client-hunters do not care for the .458 Win. Mag. because the .458's case capacity limits velocities to below optimum levels for consistent penetration. This is why cartridges like the .458 Lott, .450 Ackley, .460 Dakota, et al, were developed - to increase case capacity, and thus increase velocity, penetration, and performance.
Quite honestly, the .458 Win. mag. (checkered reputation and all) beats the dog crap out of the .45-70 from every standpoint of consideration, yet your'e trying to tell us that somehow 'less is more' and that the later out-performs larger, more capable cartridges. This is the complete opposite of what just about every competent, experienced authority on the subject has to say.
If we follow your logic straight down the line, then maybe it's like 500 grs. say - a .45 ACP should out-perform a .45-70!
AD
Cute. But it's not MY theory. Your comparison to the .45 ACP is a false analogy. And if Randy Garrett's tests are confirmed in real-world experience (see photo above and his web site), then it won't be the first time "conventional wisdom" has been turned on its head. I would answer your statement, "Quite honestly, the .458 Win. mag. (checkered reputation and all) beats the dog crap out of the .45-70 from every standpoint of consideration", by saying, except penetration. Did you not read Garrett's post? Is it somehow unfathomable that what you say can't be true, he showed to be true? Apparently, there is more to ballistic performance than more speed. And prejudice dies hard, even in the face of science. Regards
Posts: 321 | Location: Texas Hill Country | Registered: 11 February 2004
In all our collective years of hunting the african buffalo no one actually got it, in fact they missed it altogether.
They and we should have stuck to our Martini -Henry's cause that to is a 450 caliber so slow and loaded with lead no less it would outpenetrtate todays expensive DG guns
Quote:
It just might.
Quote: Geez if only I knew that before getting into all these expensive guns
I feel your pain.
Regards
Posts: 321 | Location: Texas Hill Country | Registered: 11 February 2004
Quote: 45-70 doesn't pack enough velocity for african big game! What a hammerhead!
If the truth be known, that guy's PH fired simultaneously, so who the hell knows if a mushy lead bullet even made it though the elephant's skull. A private conversation with the PH coucould settle this matter once and for all.
Randy Garrett is the fool of fools for staking his company's reputation on this balderdash. Actually he is the fool of fools for trying to build a company that produces dangerous game ammunition around a Lee Production Pot.
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002
One question: Did he ever use a max-loaded .45-70 ? ? ?
It's been a while since I've read the book (I do own it) but I'm fairly sure that he did not use a "max-loaded .45-70" or any .45-70 load. But, I'm really not going to take sides in this argument. Buy the book and read it. He goes into extensive detail about what works and why. It's only 76 pages but it covers a lot of material. Read it and draw your own conclusions.
I will say one thing about this .45-70 business. Most of the folks here acknowledge that a .45-70 will kill a Cape Buffalo. But, I think most of the pro .45-70 folks don't grasp the concept of the difference between a cartridge that will kill something and what is considered to be a proper stopping rifle/cartridge for when things go wrong. It's different criteria. A .30-06 loaded with 220 gr solids, for example, will kill a Cafe Buff but it's not what I would want to be holding in my hands if I wounded the Buff with my first shot and then he charged me.
And no, I have never hunted Cape Buff nor any of the Big Five in Africa. But, I do listen to the people that have. (I have been to South Africa twice but only for plains game.) Also, I do own two .45-70 rifles. I also own a .416 Rigby (Ruger M77) and a .470 Nitro Express (Merkel double). If I ever do get the chance to hunt Cape Buff, I'm taking the .416 Rigby or the .470 Nitro Express. I'll let someone else test the .45-70 on Buffalo.
Interesting approach in the analogy of buffs and cows!
If we're comparing a shoot-through of one .458" bullet, say a double express rifle of your choosing, vs a shoot-through of another .458" bullet, say a .45-70, what, then, would be the difference ? ? ?
Posts: 45 | Location: Ft. Myers | Registered: 09 April 2003
The Garret page very well could be correct in regard to penetration. In one bullet comparison, many different .308 cal bullets are fired into wet phone books at different velocities. By and far the best penetration is found at low velocities. At max vel (3100fps) the best penetration was around 25', most closer to 12'. The deepest penetration was over 60', with many bullets reaching the 50' arena. Invariably, the velocities that reached the deepest was the 1400-1800 fps range (most bullets weren't fired below the velocity at which they quit expanding). The key here is that the bullets are being fired WAY below the velocity at which they were designed for. Thus, they do not deform in any manner, and penetrate with exceptional performance. In wet phone books. Or clay. What if they hit a solid, say bone? Then all bets are off, as the bullet may not be carrying enough energy to pass through. And even bone withstanding, the bullet is not damaging tissue. It is like a clean peircing when shot through a consistantly soft medium. To me this doesn't translate to very effective killing potential, even if the bullet does travel a long way through wet phonebooks. Here's the link, see for yourself. See if you would choose the Trophy Bear Claw at 1900 fps (64' penetration) or the Bear Claw at 2400 fps (measly 16'):
Do we have to explain again why wet phone books provide unpredictable results, even opposite results, of what is seen in the field? The faster bullets get a big wad of wet paper in front of them that either impedes their progress or causes them to veer off course, but the slow bullets do not. In cape buffalo, there are no wet phone books to provide such anamolous results.
Ballistic gelatin was invented because wet phone books are not a reliable predictor.
Posts: 18352 | Location: Salt Lake City, Utah USA | Registered: 20 April 2002
Brian Pierces article should have been enough to convience any rational person the 45-70 isn't a Buff caliber, it took his Buff forever to die and had he shot one of the Brave Bulls then perhaps that article would never have been penned, or a PH would have had to save his bacon.
It always astounds me how verbal the 45-70 fans can be and they have never used it on Buffalo and probably never will.
Now were told the lack of velocity creates penitration, well that's pure BS thats been floating about for several years, and has been disproven time and time again...penitration is advanced up to about 2600 FPS, after that velocity will slow it down....
Next time you Marlin fans do some penitration tests then shoot into dry magazines with a 500 gr. 470 or even a 458 and compare it to the 45-70 wich netted me about 15 inches with a hard cast solid bullet as compared to 39 inches wih the 458 Bridger FN solid at 2150 or thereabouts...
Anyway, the thread has gone beyond sanity and into sublime...
Posts: 42226 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000
It's been a while since I've read the book (I do own it) but I'm fairly sure that he did not use a "max-loaded .45-70" or any .45-70 load. But, I'm really not going to take sides in this argument. Buy the book and read it. He goes into extensive detail about what works and why. It's only 76 pages but it covers a lot of material. Read it and draw your own conclusions.
I will say one thing about this .45-70 business. Most of the folks here acknowledge that a .45-70 will kill a Cape Buffalo. But, I think most of the pro .45-70 folks don't grasp the concept of the difference between a cartridge that will kill something and what is considered to be a proper stopping rifle/cartridge for when things go wrong. It's different criteria. A .30-06 loaded with 220 gr solids, for example, will kill a Cafe Buff but it's not what I would want to be holding in my hands if I wounded the Buff with my first shot and then he charged me. HI,when I started to look at lever actions I saw right away that the 45-70 as great a round as it is, is no buff round. I then moved up to a 50 Alaskan and then it to would not do what I wanted it to do and now I have a 50-110 custom lever on a win 86.I still think it will work, but it is limited in range as any lever action round is as one has to have a FN, RN in the tube no SP.I think if the 45-70 was considered a DR why are the guides not using them.Also please correct me as I may be wrong the 45-70 was to be a military round and was not intended to be a hunting round although it has done well I think 1500 fps is just to slow. Kev
Posts: 1002 | Location: ALASKA, USA | Registered: 22 May 2002
Ray.....in his book "The Perfect Shot" the author Kevin Robertson suggests that, on buffalo, he prefers his clients to load their 375 H&H's, using a 300gr bullet, down to 2400 fps for significantly better penetration than they would get a 2500 fps (factory) and above. He also claims this is especially important when taking shots into the front of the chest as the hide in this area is especially thick and bullets fired much above 2400 fps will have a tendency to not penetrate well due to what he calls "the trampoline" effect of the thicker skin.
In addition I recently read an article he wrote for The Accurate Rifle magazine where he states that he now prefers the 375 H&H be loaded down to 2300f fps using the 300gr bullets.
I know Saeed uses his "hot-rod" 375 with great affect but I wonder what your impression is of the statements by Robertson.
Posts: 4360 | Location: Sunny Southern California | Registered: 22 May 2002
Well you're certainly selective about who's opinion you're willing to swallow. I don't know Randy Garrett, but it appears as though he's got bullets to sell, and he's come up with an angle by which to sell them.
Every professional hunter I've ever talked to about this does not subscribe to the 'magic' cast bullet, less is more, golden-oldie .45-70 clap-trap for dangerous game. Most of them don't even care for the .458 Win. Mag. which moves a 500 gr. bullet at under 2100 fps., and most of the time at around 2000 fps or even a little less. I've made this last point before, but guys in your camp always seem to conveniently duck it.
To a man, the PHs I know as well as the experienced client-hunters I know would prefer a 500 gr. bullet at 2200 fps. or better for optimum performance on dangerous game.
Each to his own. There are varying degrees to an individual's concept of the "truth." We can argue till Hell freezes over and this will still not be settled. I believe Saeed uses the WalterHog and Barnes, both of which are expansion bullets for his 375/404 as he calls it. If I need to use my 375 Ultra for big stuff, you can bet your bottom dollar that I'm going to use the most velocity that I can without taxing the gun or the cartridge because it is the smaller caliber being used for big stuff.
I have been reading this 45-70 controversy with interest. I have never hunted in Africa but am planning my first safari for plains game. And I am entertaining the idea taking my 45-70 as one of three guns for the hunt. My experience in game is limited to a few hogs and a little over 100 whitetails. The arguments have digressed to the point where it would be easier to argue how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. One thing is for sure. We are talking about stopping power. Can a 45-70 kill a cape buffalo? Absolutely. Who quick will it die? That is the $64,0000 question. For sake of argument I am only going to use Cape Buffalo and whitetail deer in my argument. Are all animals equal when it come to time of death after a mortal wound? No. From my experience wth whitetails I have seen large deer shot with little rifles go down immediately and small deer shot with big guns run 50 to 100 yards before they die. These are exceptions to the rule but it happens often enough. For Cape Buffalo, which is outside my experience, I have to assume that the same thing happens. I am sure that any of the PH's on this site have a least one story of a buffalo that took a lot of lead from a large caliber magnum rifle before expiring. Were these adequate cartridges for the quarry? Yes. But some buffalo are not equal to others. There are so many variables when an animal is hit but with a larger caliber you are giving yourself a better margin of error when something goes wrong. What is the margin of error on the 45-70? Nobody knows yet. When you can bring statistics from 1000 Cape Buffalo killed with the 45-70 you will have better understanding on where it fits in the scheme of a big five cartridge.
Posts: 839 | Location: LA | Registered: 28 May 2002
Quote: Poster: RAC ..........<snip>....... I have never hunted in Africa but am planning my first safari for plains game. And I am entertaining the idea taking my 45-70 as one of three guns for the hunt. ..........<snip>.......
RAC,
I have been to South Africa twice now for plains game (in the Limpopo Province in an area just south of the Limpopo River) . Both times I hunted in bushveld which is what we would call "brush". I remember thinking my first time there that a Marlin in .45-70 (or .450 Marlin) would be a "sweet" choice for the conditions. However, not with factory level .45-70 loads. Soup up the .45-70 with handloads to .450 Marlin levels. A good 350gr bullet at around 2000-2100 fps should work great. (Woodleigh makes a 350gr .458" bullet that should work though I haven't tried it.) These ballistic levels match the old .450 3 1/4" Nitro for Black Powder loading almost exactly (albeit at higher pressures in the .45-70). see: http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/
Those ballistics worked then and it will work now. For plains game I think the ol' .45-70 can still be useful. Is a .45-70 rifle the best choice to take along? Well, that's where it gets subjective. Each to his own. But if you've got another rifle along then it's really not that critical of a decision. I only took one rifle on each of my trips. I used a .375 H&H on my first trip and a .30-06 on my second.
If you know you're going to be hunting in bushveld, then taking along a .45-70 is probably not a bad idea IMHO. However, it probably wouldn't be a good choice for the Eastern Cape, for example, as the terrain is generally more open there. More experienced posters than me can tell you more about what type of terrain to expect in what areas of different countries. Before you take your .45-70 try to find out as much as you can about the terrain where you will be hunting.
If we rename the .45/70 a .450 2 1/2" Nitro Express
The 45-70 case is only 2.035" wouldn't that make it a 450 2" nitro Express?
The 45-70 has a powder capacity of 75.51 grs of water, while the 458 Win Mag has a capacity of 93.29 grs water,and it is too small without crushing powder, with the bullet,seated the way it is shown in the picture of the elephant,in the 45-70 case, the powder capacity would be reduced by about half, makeing it 37.755 grs of water, or about the same as the 45 long colt, which has a capacity of 37.45 grs of water. There is no way this cartridge even loaded with a 400 gr bullet, can come up with the numbers required to be legal for DG in any African country where they are hunted. If it will not generate numbers equal to the 375 H&H, or higher, it is illegal. With the bullet shown, it certainly will not generate those numbers! This is not to say it isn't done,a lot of illegal things are done, but that doesn't make it right. the 45-70 loaded the way it is, in that picture, is certainly not up to legal standards, for that purpose! Gentelmen, those standards were put in place for a reason, and because someone does not abide by those standards, and gets by with it is no reason to think it is a proper thing to do!
I own, and love several rifles chambered for 45-70, but all the talk in the world, or chambering it in any kind of rifle, or all the MAGIC LOADING in the world will not turn the 45-70 into a reliable, and legal DG cartridge for Africa! It simply does not have the powder capacity to handle anything bigger than a 400 gr bullet, properly, and even that is not up to the standards set by the game people in African countries, for the big three, Cape Buffalo, rhino, and elephant, and in some countries lion! It is evident, it has been used to take these animals, but so have snares, but both are illegal, if the law is followed! Because I want to, is not a valid reason for breaking the law. With that in mind, a person who uses the 45-70 for this purpose is breaking the law, and is in the same class as any other poacher!
Posts: 14634 | Location: TEXAS | Registered: 08 June 2000
Thanks, Bob. That is exactly what I want to do. For some crazy reason only a psychiatrist could explain, I like to hunt with different guns. I would like to hunt primarily with my Marlin WWG Co-Pilot 45-70/457 Mag in bushveld. I intend to carry my 500 Linebaugh, also. But I am also practical and will bring either CZ 375 H&H or a Tikka in 338 Win Mag. I have not decided on which one to buy. I could go along with just a 30.06 but for me it just would not make it as fun a hunt.
Posts: 839 | Location: LA | Registered: 28 May 2002
DB, With the advent of Super premium bullets and monolithics, Robertson is living in the past, his booked needs to be updated along with his thinking....I will put any amount of money that I can get straighter, and more penitration at 2500 to 2600 than he can at 2300 in a 375..I know I can, I have tested it on several ocassions...
Posts: 42226 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000
The 45-70 case is only 2.035" wouldn't that make it a 450 2" nitro Express?
You got some stubby cases. Most times I see max case length listed as 2.105, with trim to length at 2.095, making it the .450 Nitro Express Two and One Tenth
Posts: 510 | Location: North Carolina, USA | Registered: 27 August 2002
You seem to be a man quite capable of civil discourse. Good!
Since Vince Lupo has demonstrated end-to-end penetration on Buffs and since the .45-70 is a .458" bullet - same as most we are comparing it to - then what else is there that would be necessary to convince you that it is a capable and adequate round for the Buffs of Africa ? ? ?< !--color-->
Posts: 45 | Location: Ft. Myers | Registered: 09 April 2003
"...then what else is there that would be necessary to convince you that it is a capable and adequate round for the Buffs of Africa ? ? ?"
Well, I really don't have a horse in this race. This .45-70 debate has appeared on this forum numerous times in the past. Nothing is ever settled by it. Me?... I really don't need convincing about the .45-70 because I'm not going to use a .45-70 anyway if I ever get a chance to hunt a Cape Buff. I've got something else I'm going to use. It's got a .474" bullet that weighs 500 grains.
Now that is a reply I can respect! Thank you for being a gentleman about the issue. I appreciate it greatly. Perhaps others can learn from you. One can only hope.
But as for 500grains, I can only say he seems to fancy himself some sort of comedian. Perhaps it's from being rejected and ridiculed as a child. That would seem to be the only excuse for his child-like emotional displays.
I cannot assume, as someone here once suggested, that 500grains was significant only in that it describes his brain weight. < !--color-->
Posts: 45 | Location: Ft. Myers | Registered: 09 April 2003
Quote: The Cape Buffalo IS simply some old cows calf, and certainly can do anyone bodily harm and continues to prove that every year by maiming and killing hunters...It rates No. 1 on the Dangerous Game list for whatever reason and I will not delve into the wheres or why fores of that...
Dear Ray, and also dear Alf: just one simple question. Since when is this so ?
I am curious whether the cape buffalo has always "ranked" among hunters as the number One of dangerous game, or whether this perception is a more recent one. My feeling - and it is hardly more than a feeling - would be that in older (19th and early 20th century) hunting literature, the cape buffalo was not quite described as the "mythical beast" which is seems to have become today.
Is this my perception of a "changed image" correct, and if so, what would, what might be reasons for this gradual change ?
Regards and thanks,
Carcano
Posts: 2452 | Location: Old Europe | Registered: 23 June 2001
The buff has always been one of the "Big 5" but you need to remember that hunts for "dangerous game" are more expensive than hunts for non-dangerous game.......you don't sell the steak, you sell the "sizzle" and the more "sizzle", the more "danger" in the game.
Posts: 4360 | Location: Sunny Southern California | Registered: 22 May 2002
Aren't you getting back to the old argument about "high velocity achieves penetration" (and therefore that it is "velocity" that achieves "killing power"? - and isn't a buff's hide almost like armor plate to start with?) You are an experienced hunter who knows that other factors like the ability of the animal to withstand sudden shock (what the pseudo scientists call " hydrostatic shock") to say nothing of the sheer jolt of adrenalin have a lot to do with it. I used to hunt woodchucks as a teenager with a Model 70 in 220 Swift. In those days (right after WW2)the 220 swift was commercially loaded in a 48 gr. bullet at 4140 fps. There was talk at the time about changing the minimum caliber regulations in my state to allow us to hunt deer with the 220. Of course, you know that neither I nor any serious hunter would have contemplated hunting deer with a 220 Swift. Why not? We recognized the incongrous relationship between trying to kill deer with what was essentially a 22 caliber bullet. (BTW, deer were killed with a 220 Swift. So what? I personally saw deer hit with a 180 gr. bullet in the sternum from a 30-06- and that staggered and then ran off. In the long run and as a rule you don't shoot deer with a 22.(not even a 22 that blew the hide off a woodchuck at 200 yards) I would imagine that in Africa I should not try to shoot animals who are a lot bigger (and who can get a lot meaner than a white tail deer)with little peashooters. (BTW, Ray, a lot of these posts you read are from folks who want to give the game "a chance". They are black powder hunters of deer and turkeys here in the US and there is nothing wrong with that philosophy- but they are not facing an animal determined to kill them - and therein lies the difference. When nyati bends that cold stare it suddenly may occur to them that all of a sudden the "philosophy" of hunting has changed. This critter wants to kill me! It produces a real change in one's thinking!
Posts: 649 | Location: NY | Registered: 15 January 2004
You know what we need is good old Randy Garret to come back into this forum and tell us how we are stupid and he has scientific proof that the crap he sells it better than a .470 nitro.
The 45/70 has about the same stopping power of a 20 guage slug.
urdubob
Posts: 945 | Location: TN USA | Registered: 09 March 2002
CapeBuff owns a Marlin 45-70, and I think this subject is very sensitive to him. But... being part of the "new" truth, the newly discovered ballistic wonder of the world, overlooked for over a hundred years, was just too much for him, he had to buy it. That... and the thought of being able to tell people your rifle was "Handy" sealed the deal.
Posts: 2045 | Location: West most midwestern town. | Registered: 13 June 2001
Well I'm pretty happy about this thread. I just found out my Faunetta is a top notch Buffalo Gun. It shoots a 425 grain, 45 caliber cast bullet at 1500 fps. According to Garret that is the absolute ideal velocity for maximum penitration.
Now instead of carrying a heavy 470 or 458 Lott I can now carry my 6 pound 20 gauge and be better armed.
Life is Sweet.
Posts: 6277 | Location: Not Likely, but close. | Registered: 12 August 2002
Well, would someone tell me why Taylor and Selous thought the 450 BPE 3 1/2" was quite adequate for Buff,Rhino, and Elephant and today its not. I know we have much better now, but the 45-70 with good reloads surly surpasses the old round.I'm not being a smart ass, I'm curious. wort
This guy the alsatian is now telling people that the 45-70 is more powerfull and decisevly drops a animal better than the 375 H&H He also loves to tell people that a buff is just a old ox and can be easily taken with a 308. Has anyone seen the Brian Searcy article in this months Rifle magazine ? The story goes like this.....The hunter shoots at the buff with the mighty 45-70. Buff runs so hunter shoots several more times. PH and hunter approach and find a dead cow and a dead bull. Hunter says he knows where all of his shots went so the cow was obviously killed from a bullet that went completely threw the buff and not any of the other lead he sent flying down range. If that is not enough this fellow actually says in his article it is a good thing that their was not a third buff standing behind the cow ! LOL The truth is more likely that the PH saved the guy from paying the trophy fee on the cow ! And yes it pretty much alludes to that in the article to but as humor. The thing is that their have been a lot of truths told in a joke !
I would like to respond to mr. Chuckwagons post to give the folks here the other side of this story. I am sure by mr. Chuckwagons last post it is apparent to you that his disagreeing with anyone had nothing to do with why he was deleted but his childish and insulting attitude had everything to do with it and it was actually allowed to go far beyond what I would have allowed had I been moderator. Couple that with his frequent misstatement of truth as fact in arguments and you will understand. For instance one of the people he disagreed with was The Alsation who is NOT a moderator at Levergun's. Mr. Chuckwagon was also given warning that he needed to cool it before he was deleted. If you read the thread in question many others had varying opnions on the subject but voiced them in an adult manner. I am proud to be a member at a site that does not allow the type of behavior mr. chuckwagon displayed there and which he is displaying here. It is very small of him to come over here and flame Leveguns after being removed because he does not play well with others. As my stump shooting grand father said "no matter how thin the flapjack, it always has two sides.". Thankyou for your time and I apologize for interuppting your lively thread.
Posts: 44 | Location: Hartsel, CO | Registered: 19 February 2004
RiflemanZ, OK now if I post photos of a Buff or two that I killed with a 8x57 and military ball ammo or how about Finn Aagards pal whos 9 year old son killed one sleeping with a 22 Hornet, is that going to qualify those two calibers as Cape Buffalo calibers....I bet old Vince had a PH backing him up just in case and I suspect that makes a lot of you guys a lot braver with the maybe calibers...I would not want to stand a charge with a 45-70 and anything less than a 416 Rem given my druthers....
Wort, Perhaps Selous did use a 450 #2 BPE, if so it was because that is all he had, I have not read that he did use one...I know he and Bell both had a pair of 450-400 N.E. double rifles that they were fond off..Are you sure this is not the case..
Posts: 42226 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000
Let's tell the FACTS straight their friend. I got deleted because the Alsation was full of sheep dip and I told him just that ! No more no less. Their are a few fellows over their who do know a LOT about lever guns and know how to debate. Winchester did not come out with the 45-90, 50 Express and the 50-110-450 because they had nothing better to do. They came out with those calibers specificly for the American Buffalo hunters. Today we have the benefit of even better calibers. Now As far as talking behind ones back I say HOGWASH ! I said every thing there I am saying here. Have you said the same thing to your Alsation who is now suggesting to those that apparently do not know any better that the 45-70 does without any question NOT out gun the 375 H&H ? Did you tell him to his face that the Cape buff is just a tad bit tuffer than a old Ox ? No of course you didn't. In the end the best Defense of your totally absurd claims that any one on that forum could invent was that I am a troll. Well if calling BS BS makes me a troll then I am in fact the worlds #1 TROll. Their is a valid reason the Cape buff is on the top 5 list. Now for those who are purists and want to hunt with a 45-70 My hat is off to you. I personally think it is foolish, but that is just my opinion. But I really detest this happy happy horse manure that every one over here is envious of the lever gun guys being able to hunt with a $500 gun when we spent all that money on a $,500 rifle and scope. I got a roaring laugh out of that one.
The truth is more likely that the PH saved the guy from paying the trophy fee on the cow ! And yes it pretty much alludes to that in the article to but as humor. The thing is that their have been a lot of truths told in a joke !
