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| not one of us |
Chuck what's wrong? Sounding a bit like a wuss.... | |||
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Now you can do better than that. | |||
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Nah I am no gopher for Alsation. Just enjoy reawakening that inate love you have for the 45-70. You have been blinded by and need enlightenment. | |||
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Quote: Agreed 100%. The 45-90, 45-120, 50-90, .405 Winchester, and others have a purpose, to kill big animals better than the 45-70! | |||
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Chuchwagon. You crack me up. I cannot believe how much you edited out of the post I replied to. I see you are such a coward that you used the do not show edited button so that all your friends over here wouldn't catch it unless they were paying attention. As for Alsation,who you pre-edit said was a moderator, I dont even know the guy other than at the Levergun site and I am sure he does not need me. Actually what you said was that ANYONE who would take a .45-70 on a dg hunt was a few screws short on the reciever and full of sheep dip in your first post on the subject. I bet you don't even remember half the garbage you come up with. At least your not preferential, you just insult everyone. Of course in one of your next posts you say you are not trying to insult anyone????? Also as said previously others disagreed, only they did it in an adult manner of which you are apparently incapable. Oh yea, your spelling is as bad as your attitude. Sorry, couldn't help the cheap shot. Actually this is fun ChuckWagon cause you just make it too easy to take apart what you say, although I believe you are oblivious to most of it. By the way this post and all others will remain unedited.  | |||
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So you are saying what ? You came here to say what you could not on the other board because if you told the truth you would be banned. You accuse me of saying some thing behind this fellows back. Now that doesn't work so I am a lousy speller  geez take your 45-70 and go shoot a few tree stumps | |||
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Now don't blow a gasket Mister Chuck Wagon! Mr. Atkinson who posted earlier on this thread is one that I would consider to have valuable opinions on this matter. Sure, when facing a charging anything, I would want plenty of horsepower. However, some people just don't shoot a .460 Weatherby very well. I wonder why? I'll bet my money any day on the guy who shoots his .45-70 several hundred times a year and actually hunts other game with the rifle over the dude who buys a .458 and won't spend the time and money to get good with it. | |||
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Yup I know a lot of guys that buy a 470 Nitro or a 460 Weatherby then can not afford the ammo or do not learn how to shoot it before they go.  | |||
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Just did. See my reply to your same challenge on the other thread. | |||
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What do you need a bran muffin for Chuckywagon? Is it because you need a little fiber in your diet? Maybe because something is getting a little backed up in your system? Something that you are completely full of that you need to get rid of so you can stack some more in? | |||
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Hey Guys.....you are high-jacking the original content of the tread. Either get back on track or start your own.  | |||
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Sorry Bill, we moved it somewhere else. Come on over if you want a good laugh  | |||
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Clearly this forum has "distinguished" itself for its grotestque hyperbole, and has now moved on to outright lies in the form of 500-grains' (apparent brain weight) assertion that Vince Lupo's elephant was shot by his guide as well as Vince. This is a clear and black LIE! This is where people of no conscience or integrity end up, in the junk heap of dishonesty. When I queried Mr. Lupo about 500-grains claims, this is the response I received from Mr. Lupo: "Bullshit!!! There were "3" PH's with me at the time. D. Clifford Sr. & Jr., and Mr. Weighardt of the area along with not 1, but 2 SA officials! I shot MY ELEPHANT AS I SHOT "ALL" of THE BIG SIX!!! The PH's were there to do their job and their guns "were never used" I even administered the "mandatory "coupe de Grass" . "Whoever the bullshitters are, tell them Lupo said they are welcome to kiss his Elephants Big Member!!!" This is discraceful behavior on the part of 500-grains, as well as others, and should be recognized for what it is, a TOTAL LACK OF PERSONAL INTEGRITY!! 500-grains, you are a black face liar! Randy Garrett www.GarrettCartridges.com | |||
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Mr. Garrett, until the above post, used to have my respect. He might be wrong, or overly optimistic about the DG potential of his cartridges, but his response seems a little hysterical. The response could have been more effective if he simply said, "Mr. 500, I wish you'd check your facts better before you made assertions that are in your experience. I've talked to Mr. ? who assured me .... and so on......" Didn't Shakespeare say, "Me thinks he doth protest too munch." Calm down, Mr. Garrett... I know you make a pretty useful product for any animal in North America.... It can work in Africa.. under controlled situations, I'm sure.. Most of us don't think the product is worthless... Just that cartridges designed for DG are a much better and wiser choice... A Kia will work just fine and has a 10 year warranty... but most folks (who can afford the same) would rather have a BMW with its 3 year guarantee... different strokes, I guess... But I don't think you've won any friends, and/or future purchases of you products by shrill comments, regardless of its veracity. Ask Dr. Howard Dean. I say all this upon the assumption that someone didn't use Garrett's name. If they did, that's low... On second thought, I'll bet someone who's as successful as Garrett wouldn't stoop to the "liar" whine! | |||
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Mr.Garret, While we haven never spoken before I wish to say that my only adversion to the 45-70 is the ill informed following it has developed. This sort of "distinguised half truth" you are spouting could put some one in a precarious situation. I wonder to what end you benefit from that. No doubt your pockets are to be lined with a with a few extra silver coins. I say good for you if you can make a extra buck but why not do it with a bit of integrity yourself ? I do expect though that after reading your web site integrity is not a prerequisite for calling the Guiness book of worls records to enter one's own name. I only have a few questions for you sir. Why did he travel with THREE PH's instead of just one ? And what caliber was each PH carrying ? The fact that he had Three PH's with him to save his skin if things went sour speaks volumes to me about exactly how much confidence he has in your product. | |||
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Well Judge , reguardless of Mr. Garrett , I would have to say that 500 gr. was the first to stoop to a low posistion on this thread............ | |||
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Hey Judge, take it easy on the guy. 500nits is about as impolite as they get, and everyone, even you, have been taking quite a few swings that the Garrett ammo and .45-70 claims. Heck, who wouldn't get POed upon finding out himself being pissed on like Garrett does in this forum over and over again. The pack mentality over here is really quite intense. I never really had a lot of interest in hunting buffalo, but if I were to hunt them, I'd do it with a .45-70 just for sure spite. I've never seen such animosity over such an issue. Brent | |||
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I don't think I was pissing on Mr.Garrett, only pissing on the .45/70. And only on the DG claims, thereupon. I sure would shoot a moose with Mr. Garrett's load... if I can get past his temper, I guess! I just believe that there are firm reasons that PH's and experienced Africa hands use N.E. cartridges. They work better... much better in fact. As to 500 grains, he isn't in the business of nationally selling any product of which I know. I haven't commented on 500's tone in his posts... I'm not his potentional customer. But I think he can recognize a "stunt" when he sees one. And remember I've successfully hunted DG (albeit, American/Canadian bears) with a homemade bow. Having one die, literally, upon my feet. I just think someone with a national reputation (usually quite good), shouldn't lose it over one persons comments. | |||
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Quote: Well, Brent that seems to be because many of the people here are sucking air through their elevated noses from the rarified heights of the ionoshere. I wonder what "Judge" would do if his opinions (or hasn't he attained that level yet?) were totally misquoted and made fun of. He'd have his black robe all tied in a knot around his tiny little gavel. Yet here he pokes fun and ridicules those who have the audacity to remain true to their convictions knowing full well they have the pure ring of truth. Sorry, Judge, it's too late to take the moral high road. You passed that exit a long time ago. | |||
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Aw come on Judge. You have been takin' on any and all comers and those in abstentia too. Anyway, Garrett has been well tenderized on this forum over the last couple of years and since I reckon he is just as much flesh and blood as a cape buffalo, I can understand him getting a little hot. In any event, it seems that AR members are pretty selective about whom they criticize over the .45-70 and DG issue. Saeed said he would do it and he bought the tickets for the game. No one picked on him. I'd do it, but my tickets didn't get drawn. Anne did get drawn but didn't get the job done - yet. No one picks on her. This is all about pack mentality, not about .45-70 shooting. Heck, why don't we all go over to the big game forum and beat up the guy that wants to shoot deer with his .22-250 instead? For moose, I shoot a .45 muzzleloader - considerably less powerful than a .45-70 with Garrett loads. I'd shoot a cape buff with it too, but would rather have a repeater and a .45-70 would be fine. NO ONE said that a .470 NE would not be better, but a .45-70 will get the job done - at least some rather creditable people think so. Why not let them. I guess 500nits has you firmly in his stunt hunter category now that you've fessed up to shooting bears with a bow  Home made no less!!! Yella wood I hope! You know 'round here, hunting deer w/o wheels is seen as unethical stunt hunting by many of the wheelie-bow persuasion. Anyway, take it easy on Garrett. He would have been a good person to hang out around here. We might even have learned something from him. Lupo too. But we ran them out, calling them liars before they even arrived. And then there was General/Col or whatever he was Boddington - we ran him out of here too. Nice bunch we are. Suck up or scram seems to be our motto. Have a good one - And I hope you get a Georgia turkey with that bow this spring. Damn tough turkeys are when it comes to skewering. Damn tough, on AR or in the woods. I have yet to skewer one in either place. Brent | |||
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When ever some one makes these kind of claims they are going to stand the heat. If it was not just a publicity stunt he would not get his drawers in such a bunch. Now the more I think about I just might hunt with a 45-70 too ! Of course as long as Mr garret pays for my hunt and arranges to have THREE PH's back me up. | |||
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Hey Judge, Just remember that your not in the court room where everyone is supposed to act in a polished and distinguished manner. Youre hanging out with the guys and unless you want us to think you have a superior and arrogant attitude from up there on your bench, just relax and be a little more human. It's probably something you don't get to do very often so enjoy it. IF that was Randy, and I had the same thought as you, he is just another guy hanging out here like the rest of us and should be afforded the same luxury as far as conduct and speech goes. None of us (I hope) would talk this way in church or your courtroom, or in front of our momma's so ease up on the guy. If you have your opinions about his ammo and it's abilities, fine, disagree, thats what we do and you hear it all day long in your courtroom. I would say though that he stakes a lot of personal finances and reputation on his ammo which is more than any of us are doing and the overall tone of his business is not one that would seem to be trying to put one over on the uninformed public . He has his theories and went so far as to build a business around them and that is enough to get my respect being in business for myself and knowing how tough that is so I congratulate him. On the other hand I have heard no one so far step up and say they have had his ammo fail so where is the evidence supporting any opinion to the contrary other than pure conjecture? As far as Vince having 3 guides, wouldn't this speak more to the confidence of the guides in themselves and each other since surely they would each be armed with a Super Nitro PH approved one shot stopper? I guess the elephant would be so insulted at being shot at with a .45-70 he would be more pissed of than normal? Maybe they all just wanted to witness the old lever takin' care of binness, know what I mean? And since he had not just one of your darling PH's but three PH witnesses to corroborate his story doesn't that make it more credible. Also even if you have the approved 5Grand gun won't there still be a PH backing you up? Anyone can make a bad shot. Most can't make a good one no matter what they shoot, but especially if it kicks the shit out of them and they can't take it and flinch. Personally I like the idea that the kind of gun a working stiff can afford could be used on an exotic hunt in Africa since like most of us I could probably talk the wife into the trip but if I spent the kind of money needed for the guns you guys are using that would be IT. | |||
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Here is the elitist Vs poor fellow stance that I think is really at the core of much of this. It seems strange in some ways to me as I expect that the smallest percentage of those who travel to hunt in Africa, in any capacity Take lever guns. The second smallest group take doubles. You might even include singles and all rifles costing in excess of $5,000 US for rifle and scope in that class. All told I would be very suprised if they collectively account for more than 5-10% of the total hunters who travel to Africa to hunt in a year. No matter what your views are one thing is certain. Not too many hunt with THREE Ph's backing them up. | |||
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Quote: EXACTLY!!In case you were not reading thoroughly (oh,not you Chucky  )I refer you back to my previous post. These are the only reasonable conclusions.As far as Vince having 3 guides, wouldn't this speak more to the confidence of the guides in themselves and each other since surely they would each be armed with a Super Nitro PH approved one shot stopper? I guess the elephant would be so insulted at being shot at with a .45-70 he would be more pissed off than normal? Maybe they all just wanted to witness the old lever takin' care of binness, know what I mean? And since he had not just one of your darling PH's but three PH witnesses to corroborate his story doesn't that make it more credible. Hey Chucky,don't you get dizzy from going in circles all the time? That would explain ALOT! | |||
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I said, "I bet Vince's trophies had some bullets from the PH in them...." Quote: Mr. Garrett, I wonder how you explain the inconsistencies in Mr. Lupo's Bix 6 story (assuming you can find the inconsistencies). I also wonder how you rebut the penetration test results posted on this board which showed that a .458 solid at 1500 fps penetrated substantially less than the same solid at 2100 fps, which penetrated substantially less than the same solid at 2400 fps. Finally, if you believe that less velocity means more penetration, please explain why your 45-70 ammo is loaded hot instead of being loaded light, since according to your logic, light loads would give greater penetration. Although I would be interested in Mr. Garrett's response to the above (but not interested in more marketing hype), I do not expect answers. The first time Mr. Garrett visited this board, he left in a huff after calling us idiots because we did not believe that a low velocity lead bullet would penetrate as deep as a mid to high velocity FMJ or monolithic solid. I suppose it is human nature to react emotionally and irrationally when false assumptions underlying a religious belief are pointed out..... | |||
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What we lack to substantiate your hypothisis is the Published accounts of the three PH's. | |||
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Quote: You know Chucky, you really know how to pick out a small detail and make an issue out of it that was not intended and was not even a small part of the thrust of my comments. It seems to be more of an issue with you since you have pointed it out more than once. I have no problem with my station in life although I do hope to better it I accept it and dont blame the Judge, you or anyone else. I'll tell you something else, I have worked for,shaken hands with, and known personally people who are REALLY wealthy, not just want you to think they are wealthy, I mean filthy stinkin own a castle in Europe rich and they are some of the humblest people you can meet and you wouldn't know how well off they were to talk to them so I have learned to know the difference by the attitude, get my drift? I treat people the way I would want to be treated untill they show me different. Just because I cannot afford a high dollar gun does not mean I begrudge anyone else who can afford one doing it. After all somebody built the parts it's made of and is gratefull for the job even though they probably couldn't afford the thing. Also I would like to go on record as acknowledgeing that it is OBVIOUS that a HP rifle does the job and does it well! As established here MOST DG is taken by them. That does not mean that the .45-70 won't as has been proven over and over. It is just a different theory of bullet dynamics that WORKS! The inability for certain parties to be objective about it is the only reason this thread is continuing. | |||
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Quote: Yes, but my hypothesis is at least based on someones account i.e a witness and therefore is more valid than your hypothesis | |||
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I take it that you were unable to find the accounts of the 3 Ph's as you did not include that minor detail in your last post. I agree with you most people are humble but the lever gun crowd seems bent on making it a financial issue Vs one of ballistics. Here is your word of the day.............MINUTIA ! | |||
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Hey Chucky, Not for nothing but are you slightly retarded? |I am not really sure why you care so much if other people think highly of the 45-70 and it's ability to easily take all DG on the planet with proper bullet and placement. As far as judge goes.... Dude, you are a complete moron. You make Chucky look like a candidate for a Nobel Peace Prize. C | |||
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Quote:Quote: That is, unless you are prepared to enter some sort of credentials into these proceedings other than a cow camp cook that will give your statements more validity . | |||
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So here we are at that juncture where you and your mates have no merit to debate. You thus resort to silly name calling and innuendo's that do little more than make you look more foolish. You make bold talk about what is fact. When we get to the nuts and bolts of it you fold just like the rest of your clan. No doubt your mental status is affected by Post traumatic stress. One can only be attacked by so many charging pine stumps before succombing to a degraded state of self righousness. | |||
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Yep Chucky you got it, we are all idiots. Thanks for pointing this out to us. On a realistic note, there is no point to debating you because you are not seeking to truly exchange views. You are "getting off" on the fight. Your point is to "fan the flame" only. You are not here to learn or teach. Just antagonize. As you do on all the other forums. Your attempt to disguise your intention are thinly veiled. Sooner or later you will get booted off of this forum like you have been booted everywhere else you go. C | |||
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R. Garret, I have no doubt of Vinces claim, Hannes Swanapol killed an elephant with a 44 Magnum.... I do have doubts about many of your claims and the agenda behind those claims seems pretty evident..but I won't stoop to calling you a liar as you just did to someone on this board. I do not think you are a liar, I think that you are mislead and you believe what you say, but everyone does not have to agree with you..and since your in business your open to account and discussion for every claim you make. However if you live in a glass house, don't throw rocks. The simple truth is your calibers are not dangerous game calibers IMO, and are not charge worthy and if a caliber is not a charge stopper then it is a stunt, again IMO... | |||
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Yeaah. I confess. I was booted off Paco Kellys lever gun forum for telling the Alsation and the moderator ( Rob ? ) that they were full of sheep dip in relation to the 45-70 having more knock down power and better ballistics for the big 5 Vs the 375 H&H. YAAAAAWN | |||
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Quote: I'll admit Chucky, I looked it up even though I could have guessed from the root word. If minutia is the case then why the effort to continue the subject and elaborate on said minutia? The.45-70 rules all for those of us with the enlightenment to partake in it's abilities! (just to stay on topic)  | |||
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No Chucky, you have been booted off other forums as well for the same lame (flame) reasons. You are not to be taken seriously. C | |||
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Atkinson, Although I dont personally agree with you regarding the 45-70 your point to Mr. Garrett is valid. He is a manufacturer, but is also a die hard fan first and foremost. I am quite sure he is capable of earning $$ selling other calibers as well. However I believe he promotes the 45-70 because of it's fantastic abilities to penetrate and devastate DG. If you haven't tried a Garrett yet. Please do so. C | |||
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Quote: Guys, I hope you don't put any stock in this outright lie of Chuckys. Nothing could be FURTHER from the truth which is something I don't think Chucky comprehends at all as there seems to be a pathological trend to lie and then deny and then edit on his part. Oh yea, my .45-70 will be killing alien DG on other planets while your high dollar magnums will be in a museum. | |||
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Quote: Sore, No one puts stock in this guy's spew. But it is amusing to watch him spew it. C | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting African Big Game Hunting Re: The "Truth" Behind The 45-70 Controversy
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