At the recent US hunting shows, several rumors were circulated to the effect that USFW would be seizing imports of trophies from TZ of Lions that were under 6 years old.

John Jackson was consulted and had the following comment:


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From: [mailto:secretary@tzpha.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 12:15 PM
To:
Subject: correction regarding lion import to US


Dear Members,
I do apologies for any misunderstanding caused by my email titled “Trophy Lion imports into the USA”
I asked a question and got an answer and sent it out with out thinking, Luckily John and several members were paying attention, thank you.
Please, carefully read Johns' email to me:


Mike,
Sorry, what I have said may be misleading. There is no ESA or CITES authority that should stop the import of lion trophies but there is another consideration because of the way the Tanzania regulations are written which I must say I don't recall seeing in final form. The Lacey Act of the USA makes it both a criminal and civil offense to import any animal part that has been taken in violation of the law or regulations of the country of origin. Of course, such an animal part is also subject to seizure and forfeiture, though that may not be as serious as prosecution. I looked at the lion regulation which I had not seen in context and final before that I recall. The regulation explicitly states that "No person shall...hunt lion of an age below six years...." This is an unconditional prohibition. If a violation is suspected it can be expected to lead to seizure by US Law Enforcement or worse. That is equivalent to not accepting imports in the broad sense. I certainly hope we can avoid that treatment but it is better than an up listing that would be worse.

In light of this, it is imperative that Tanzania authorities police those being exported themselves so USFWS does not assume that focus and to protect the clients from any charge that it is a knowing violation which would be a felony. If the Tanzania authorities have legitimately certified that it is 6 years of age, the trophy may still be seized for forfeiture if questionable but the hunter is unlikely to be prosecuted (the offense would not be intentional). This is all more serious than I contemplated and is regardless of its listing.

Sincerely,
John


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Secretary General
Tanzania Professional Hunters Association
www.tzpha.com

What a SNAFU! This opens the door for a young Joe Friday to stir up a hornet's nest. Why not post a law that says "If you shoot a Lion less than six years old, you will be hung and your house burned to the ground." Makes no sense to me. I can see it now..."Your lucky boss, he's six years and one day old!"
LDK

No dog in this hunt, but how the f*ck does some agent in the US have a CLUE about aging lions?

Typical BS buracracy......


Mad Dog

Ya know, this post may catch me a lot of shit, but why doesn't everybody just say to hell with hunting lions in TZ.? Let them go stuff it up a rope. Easy for me to say, because I will never have the $$$s to go there, but damn, when is enough, enough?


Mad Dog

Maddog, To answer your question at least as much as my limited knowledge allows equires a 2 part answer. First USFWS has no way to actually age a lion that close without some serious lab work. Neither does the authority in Tz for that matter. I do agree that the regulation is going to be a stuff up and will be used against us at any opportunity. That however is not the fault of the Tz wildlife folks. I believe their intent was and is soley to manage the lion popultaion better and prevent the taking of younger so called immature lions. I think that is a good thing and that the intent was good. The reality will be something else. The kind folks at USFWS have become an entity unto themselves. They have shown a total disregard for the rights of the hunter as well as the managing authority in the country of origin. They do not hold any simple clerical mistake to be just that, a mistake that could be easily rectified. As such they have deemed everything they can to be contraband and as such subject to forfeiture with no recourse by the innocent party, the hunter. Do you not think that in light of all the recent seizures and bullshit reasons they give that they will not take this as a great opportunity to forward their anti hunting agenda? As far as them having a clue when did that ever stop them before? As far as boycootting Tz I dont agree. I can understand someone who wants to import a lion without all the extra drama wanting to go somewhere else but the truth is it is the USFWS who will be the bad guys here not the Tz folks. To coin the old cartoon quote, " I have met the enemy and he is us." I doubt at this point in my life I will ever hunt a lion. I have no interest in a "ranch" hunt and doubt I could ever justify the price of a true wild lion hunt. That dosnt mean this sort of thing dosnt just chap my ass and raise my blood pressure severalpoints. I am sick and tired of playing by the rules and still getting screwed over. I would like to suggest those in the USA all complain loudly about the USFWS policies. Those of you on the other side should make a lot of noise to your professional organizations and the CITES people. I see no good coming out of all of this.

Mich, does your posting of this privileged email constitute authorized dissemination???

It is hard to imagine that the USFW will institute a program to age incomming trophies... And what would a hunter do anyway, have his PH sign an affidavid? Or Mich does Tanzania indeed have a program to "certify" the age? Or is what JohnJ is saying they need to do?

This has nothing specifically to do with TZ, as importing any "illegally" taken animal into the U.S., is a Lacey Violation.

Secondly, as I have stated many, many times before. Science, with a $30,000 x-ray machine and tooth sample, can only age lions effectively to within 10-12 months of actual age? How in the world is this gonna be done accurately in TZ, or by some USFWS person at customs??

So, do you actually think the TZ wildlife dept is going to invest in such a device?? Nope!! Secondly, who's gonna analyze it?? On and on, and on!!!

Mike Smith's response really says it all. This is simply a recipe for abuse, especially by the USFWS, nothing more.

Here is an example of USFWS. Someone I know who shall remain nameless went to Mexico to hunt. the original hunt was for pecory and some other things I dont remember. e had his original contract with the outfitter stating all of this. Upon arival he found out there had been a cancellation for a coues deer that was now available. The gent said great, paid the outfitter his fees and boughtn the appropriate license. He was succesful on all his trophies. He then obtaineed the necessary vet and export permits. So he gets to the border with his properly tagged trophies, he has his licenses and the export paperwork all in order, or so he thought. USFWS seizes his coues deer and charges him with a Lacey Act violation. Why? Because a coues deer was not listed on his original hunt contract with the outfitter. Now I know this wasnt Africa but I am just using it as one example of some of the stupiidity that goes on. I dont know what the final resolution was but the aggravation alone is more than enough let alone time and money. You can bet with all the Cites animals I brought in last time I was holding my breath after hearing this episode.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill C:
Mich, does your posting of this privileged email constitute authorized dissemination???

It is hard to imagine that the USFW will institute a program to age incomming trophies... And what would a hunter do anyway, have his PH sign an affidavid? Or Mich does Tanzania indeed have a program to "certify" the age? Or is what JohnJ is saying they need to do?

Bill,
I have - in writting - permission to post this here by the Secretary of TPHA.

As far as I know, TZ authorities do not have a special comittee established to age hunted lions. At least Outfitters have not been officially informed yet of how they expect to monitor and implemnt this regulation. I see this more of an issue if USFW happen across an "obviously" young lion (say a 2-3 year old) as any qualified biologist would be able to determine accurately that that was not a 6 year old lion. Who knows how this will play out but it sure wasn't thought out properly IMHO.

quote:

I see this more of an issue if USFW happen across an "obviously" young lion (say a 2-3 year old) as any qualified biologist would be able to determine accurately that that was not a 6 year old lion. Who knows how this will play out but it sure wasn't thought out properly IMHO.

Mich:

Why then did we have such a long-drawn posting on the aging of lions when it eventually boils down to the taking of a mature and adult lion only?

We all know that there are no qualified people in the hunting industry who can determine the exact age of a lion other than from the "obvious" signs confirming the animal to have been immature or not.
We also know that the hunting industry in Tanzania and elsewhere, does not have the equipment to do so, I doubt depts. would invest in one and finally I doubt there is anyone sufficiently qualified to operate one.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

I see this more of an issue if USFW happen across an "obviously" young lion (say a 2-3 year old) as any qualified biologist would be able to determine accurately that that was not a 6 year old lion. Who knows how this will play out but it sure wasn't thought out properly IMHO.

Mich:

Why then did we have such a long-drawn posting on the aging of lions when it eventually boils down to the taking of a mature and adult lion only?

We all know that there are no qualified people in the hunting industry who can determine the exact age of a lion other than from the "obvious" signs confirming the animal to have been immature or not.
We also know that the hunting industry in Tanzania and elsewhere, does not have the equipment to do so, I doubt depts. would invest in one and finally I doubt there is anyone sufficiently qualified to operate one.

Fujo - You answered your first question, in your second paragraph. Its got little to do with the fact that no one is qualified, and a whole lot more to do with the fact that there is NO FACTUAL way to determine a lion's age on the "paw"! So, the only choice is to harvest only an obviously mature lion.

I too made the same statements above as you as well. No one would be qualified to analyze the x-rays, and is the TZ govt gonna invest in such a piece of equipment? And finally, these X-rays are only accurate to within 10-12 months of ACTUAL age. So, perhaps a hunter does shoot a 6 yr old lion, but the examiner determines its only 5!!!! Giant recipe, for a giant disaster.

Aaron,

I hear you on the money and reading of x-rays aspect, but if a lion's tooth is x-rayed and shows 4yrs at most that's a 5 year old lion. I would think that would be helpful. If you have one that reads 5 to 7 years you disregard the x-rays and look at other factors. If you have a lion that reads +7 years you know you're fine. Seems simple in that regard to me. These don't have to be absolutes Aaron. Just use them where they make sense. With digital x-rays you could have one in Dar and one in Arusha (They probably already have at least a digital x-ray somewhere in both those cities that could be used for this purpose for a fee paid by the sport hunter). A tooth from every lion taken is x-rayed and the images are emailed to a specialist who can properly age them. Or better yet they are emailed individually to a group of specialist who read them independantly. Then the average estimated age of the group is submitted as the age + or - 12 months.

Brett

how would USFW tell if you do not have teeth and skull shipped? I would just ship the skin and use fake teeth on my mount otherwise you could be told its 10 years old and it is only 5 you are screwed.How can they age the lion with just the skin?

Brett - Now your talking about logic! Which often evades the TZ wildlife dept. Your assessment sounds logical, but do you wanna trust them to get your correct tooth, actually get it scanned/analyzed correctly, etc??

Gerryb - Good point as well. And when the skins come, they are totally dried, and folded up. Generally the only way to really un-fold them, without causing damage, is to hydrate them.

TZ is going to x-ray the tooth. Maybe USFW is going to go on the TZ x-ray opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Brett - Now your talking about logic! Which often evades the TZ wildlife dept. Your assessment sounds logical, but do you wanna trust them to get your correct tooth, actually get it scanned/analyzed correctly, etc??

I'm sure you could propperly train two people (one in Dar and one in Arusha) to acurrately take samples, analyze them, and email them. I understand it's Africa, but this isn't rocket science!

Brett

Brett & Lane - I hope you guys are right!

As I see it it will be up to the USF&WS to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the lion was under age. If they can't do that they may try to bluff you but plead innocent and let them prove it in court. I uspect they will drop the charges. If the charge is importing an unlawfully taken lion and you need the teeth to tell for sure it is then unreasonable to expect the hunter to be able to age the lion in the field. I seriously doubt that any jury would convict under those conditions.

465H&H

Why is USF&W so left-winged for lack of a better description?

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
As I see it it will be up to the USF&WS to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the lion was under age. If they can't do that they may try to bluff you but plead innocent and let them prove it in court. I uspect they will drop the charges. If the charge is importing an unlawfully taken lion and you need the teeth to tell for sure it is then unreasonable to expect the hunter to be able to age the lion in the field. I seriously doubt that any jury would convict under those conditions.

465H&H

Never under estimate USF&W's ability to screw something up!

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Brett & Lane - I hope you guys are right!

It will in TZ's best intrest for USF&W to not hold things up if it is legit.

Ak Fish & Game took a premolar from my Brown Bear and aged it. What method do they use and is it applicable to Lion.

Dental x-rays measure the width of the pulp cavity...the same general principle is used for lion and bear etc.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
As I see it it will be up to the USF&WS to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the lion was under age. If they can't do that they may try to bluff you but plead innocent and let them prove it in court. I uspect they will drop the charges. If the charge is importing an unlawfully taken lion and you need the teeth to tell for sure it is then unreasonable to expect the hunter to be able to age the lion in the field. I seriously doubt that any jury would convict under those conditions.

465H&H

and $50,000 worth of legal fees( on top of your ridiculously overpriced Tz lion hunt cost) you PROBABLY will get off the legal hook. sounds like a great plan to me.