I spent many years in the military doing high stress jobs. Most eeryone drank alcohol. I go t hammered on Bourbon street in New Orleans on a Saturday in 1983. I was unable to fly my jet fighter safely until three days later. It was an easy choise to forego strong spirits in exchange for much improved performance in the jet, and with the girls my age.

I don't give a hoot what every one does to unwind in the evening. Sucking down booze is unnaceptable during hunting hours - It is unsafe, I'll butt stroke the PH, collect my money and be on my way. I will not hunt with a hung over bloke the next morning. When I pay good money, I want good service. I don't preach, I just want to hunt. I am not looking for a pious sort at all, Just a sober man.

My definition of a reasonable compromise is two drams around the Mopane fire at night.

If there are any fairly steady PH's out there that hold views, and practie actions similar to my own, I would be interseted in hearing from you.

Many thanks for your forebearance, and possible interest in a hunt.

LD

PS I'm looking for someone who is merciless in his evaluation of my shooting style and proficiency.

That's an interesting one. - I have a personal rule where I don't touch any alcohol until everyone is back in camp and safe and then I'll maybe have a beer around the camfire and a glass of wine with dinner..... but not usually much else. If one of the other PHs is out sitting for a cat for example, I just stick to coke or water etc until he gets into camp.

I also don't usually have any alcohol on the hunting truck.

That is refreshing. We had guys that flew hung over, or actually partially drunk. Morons.

Hell, I'm a bad enough pilot when I'm sober, I'd be a horrendous one if I'd had a drink...... although my passengers may well prefer a few fingers of the water of life before entrusting themselves to my (limited) skills!

My PH Claude Kleynhans, didn't and still doesn't drink. I had a whisky around the fire at night!

To paraphrase the above, "I'm a bad enough shot sober." I don't need any help in that department!

I have found that some people are much easier for me to tolorate when I am drunk. The Judge taught me this at the DRSS events!

NO ALCOHOL at all for PH's that hunt for me while on the job. And when they work for me they're on the job 24/7 for the duration of the hunt including when the clients have gone to sleep. I made the mistake once of hiring a PH without clarifying this with him in advance and won't do that again... Unbeknown to me he was sucking down rum & coke with one of the clients until the wee hours of the morning and ended up costing me more money on the bar bill than the other clients combined. PLUS he wasn't very successful in getting trophies in the salt either... A lesson learnt the hard way...

As host I might enjoy a glass of wine at dinner with my clients - provided they are having some. And in instances where I know the client(s) and his drinking preferances / habits from previous hunts I might enjoy something around the fire with him / her / them - especially on the last night of the hunt.

I wouldn't presume to tell a grown man how much to drink once the guns have been put away, but if he is physically unable to guide the next morning, I'll explain to his boss that that was a non-hunting day.
I wager his boss would then explain things to him.

George

I agree that there should be no drinking while hunting, but as for no alcohol for the PH period, I think that is way too extreme. I enjoy sharing a beer (or two or three) with the PH and others in camp at the end of the day, toasting the experiences of the day, and enjoying each other's company. If I was the only one drinking to me it would not be the same.

Interesting post. I do not drink alcohol at all. I also would much prefer a 'dry' camp. I would not go as far as tell my hosts that I did not want them to even have a glass of wine with dinner. However, if somebody showed up the next day hungover, I would be upset. Are there quality PH's that run a dry camp? If so, who would they be?

There maybe a dry safari camp but I've never heard of one. I'm afraid even a non-drinking PH would not limit his clientelle to tea totalers as he'd probably go broke.

I've been the victim of an extremely hungover PH and it was not a pleasant. In fact that one instance tainted the whole safari but I still think alcohol consumption by the PH should be his responsibility. My experience overall is that even PH's that party hearty have it under control while on safari. A couple of drinks in the evening is about normal. The PH in the first day or 2 will gauge the clients feelings about drinking and behave accordingly.

In choosing a PH I think you can pretty much assume that the PH's drinking wil not be a issue.

Mark

I personally don't drink, but everyone in our camp does.

Walter normally buys the maximum allowed at the duty free for everyone passenger we have!

He arrives at camp fully loaded as a mobile bar!

I remember one year when I put some very hot sauce in their bottles. I think if I wasn't armed I would have been thrown into Lake Kariba from Chete camp!

The look on their faces as they took their first sip was priceless

Standard rule of Safari is no drinking during the hunting days. The evenings are yours, your a grown man, its up to you to know your limits..I am with Mark on this one, walk carefully least you be out of business.

A safari operator isn't going to tell any client how much to drink unless the client is really out in left field and creating a real danger to himself or others.

This is a thought provoking post. Thanks for raising the issue.

I am fully convinced that there is much truth in the following: "Too much drinking [by the client] the night before causes wounding the next day"! I have considered the effect of late night drinking by the PH with clients [some complete alcoholics who needs a drinking partner] the aspect needs some more consideration.

I personally do not usually [ever???] drink too much with a client, except maybe on the last night A-F-T-E-R a very good hunt. As a Hunting Outfitter who sometimes have to employ freelance PH's I have a definate and published rule for freelance PH's working for me. I do here and now admit that maybe I've not given the aspect enough thought from the view of the really totally 'dry' or almost dry client. I quite agree that a hung-over PH can not do his job properly, but how may a real 'only one beer per night' client feel about hunting with a PH that had 4 beers the night before?

One thing is sure that after reading the postings here, my "Expectations of Conduct" document, that is given to every freelance PH that aspires to work for me, will be edited somewhat soon.

Keep posting your views on this.

Thanks again to lawndart for raising the point.

In good hunting.

Andrew McLaren.

I've never seen a PH drunk in a camp yet. Most will have some beers or whatever which is fine. The stories of drinking to excess is usually of clients that do it.

I personaly have found the secret to my drinking is to enjoy very good (and expensive ) Scotch, then you don't need to have as much to enjoy it!

One good-sized one on the rocks when returning to camp, and then a red wine with dinner is about perfect.

Moderation is the key to everything, each day we were there we have a few beers after our hunt. One night after a long day, my PH and his buddy had a few more, but we didn't suffer at all as a result. We probably had our best day hunting the next day.

We were all grown men and we acted like it.

I concur that this is an interesting topic.

If I could add a twist, I am curious as to whether the presence or availability of alcohol poses a particular temptation to the native black African trackers, skinners, cooks, and other staff who may be present in the safari camp in the way that it does for the many of the "First Nations" wranglers, etc. that you find in some Canadian hunting camps.

On my Yukon moose hunt last year the outfitter was absolutely explicit that he allowed no alcohol in camp, not because of any religious convictions or worries about his PH, but because of the impact the booze on the First Nations folk working for him. Wondering how that situation compares to Africa, where I have never been.

I enjoyed a few beers after the hunting day was over and sitting around the campfire with my PH, but then again, we were the only two in camp. The beers always seemed to go down much smoother and tasted better after a successful day afield.

quote:

Originally posted by Blank:
I personaly have found the secret to my drinking is to enjoy very good (and expensive ) Scotch, then you don't need to have as much to enjoy it!

One good-sized one on the rocks when returning to camp, and then a red wine with dinner is about perfect.

I concur whole heartedly. I never drink while hunting but do enjoy a couple fingers of scotch and a good cigar in the evening at camp. Maybe a beer with dinner.

As to shooting while drinking, I will will note that I made probably the most amazing shot of my life with at least a six pack in me. Back in my college days over Christmas break a friend and I were riding the back roads drinking beer when we saw a crow sitting in the middle of a pasture, at least 200 yards distant. I rolled the window down and pulled out my ruger 10/22. I centered the verticle cross hair on the crow and raised about half way up the cross hair for elevation and squeezed a single shot off.

About a second after the shot the crow fell over dead. I wanted to get out an pace it off but my friend was nervous and wanted to get the hell out of there.

I don't endorse shooting crows from the road today but it was a great shot any way.

In three hunts I've shared a camp with 6 different PHs, one didn't drink, the others showd extreme moderation. I don't mind if, at the end of the day, my PH has a couple of drinks around the fire. If he were to over imbibe I would not be happy, but if he is sober and bright eyed and bushey tailed in the morning, i'm fine with it.

I don't normally drink alcohol, both by choice and because of a medical condition that requires me to drink in moderation, if at all.

However, while hunting in Africa, especially with host families who are German, they tell me that it is a tradition in their culture to celebrate a hunter's first trophy (of the hunt) with a shot of schnappes. I had never turned down their congratulatory toast. All drinking is done, of course, after hunting hours.

Around the braai, I am offered and accept the spirits and mixed cocktails of the host PH. At dinner, the hostess, lovely as they are gourmet cooks, will set the appropriate dinner wines.

As the air of the bushveld begins to fill with the sounds of the night creatures, as the flame-orange sky turns into deep purple, and as the stars dance around the Southern Cross, may that great African tradition of the Sundowner never die, but live forever in your mind's Africa.

Namibiahunter

Moderation is the key. Without a few sundowners my trips to Africa would have lost much and I enjoyed the company of my PH having a few as well.

More response to this posting than I had anticipated; thank you all for that.

As I mentioned above, I believe two ounces of 80 proof (or equivalent) is reasonable. Beyond that point though, very little communication goes on. Dry brains and wet brains can't communicate. A big part of the reason for me to go is to learn about the flora, fauna, geology, ecology (I steer clear of politics or theological matters, of course).

I know that most hunters drink in the evenings. That option is not open to me. It is like being left handed; 30% of the adult population in the US doesn't drink.

I'm not about to attempt to dictate to someone who needs alcohol in the evening that they not drink it. I'm merely looking for like minded guides. If none exist, I'll go fishing, or self guide when I can.

Actually, I have received PM's and e-mails regarding several operations that fit my particular needs.

Back in the day, every time my scheduled oponent(s) for the morning air to air practice sortie drank the night before; I beat them. No sense losing half a step.

LD

quote:

As the air of the bushveld begins to fill with the sounds of the night creatures, as the flame-orange sky turns into deep purple, and as the stars dance around the Southern Cross, may that great African tradition of the Sundowner never die, but live forever in your mind's Africa.



Namibiahunter

Now that nearly brought a tear!

I have heard stories of clients getting so drunk the could not hunt at all. In fact, on one instance the PH, at the request of the drunkard, went out and shot a few animals so that the clients trip wasn't wasted.

He might have convinced his PH with some sort of s sob story to have that done.

On other occasions, I have heard of a PH who was stone drunk the next day he could not drive out of the camp!

I am sure all these do happen at hunting camps. Glad they have not occured at any of the ones I we were in.

I think it is the resposnssibility of both the PH and clients to make sure no one gets drunk in a hunting camp.

I can imagine some really nasty situation arising if that did happen.

Being a non drinker, I have seen people I know who are as kind and friendly as one can hope for. Turn into obnoxious idiots once they get drunk.

Walter says if that happens in our camp, we can cure him for life.

We would tie him to a tree close to where all the bones and guts are thrown, and leave him to enjoy a night with the hyaenas.

In fact, I know of an occasion when this happened. And the man would not touch a drink until he got home

Amazing how some methods of persuastion work.

I have been in two African hunting camps (in RSA) where a PH would get ripping drunk quite regularly. It was actually the same guy on both occassions. Fortunately, I didn't hunt have to hunt with him afterward -- although it didn't seem to affect his ability to get up early or hunt hard. And his clients always seemed to get good animals. Also on the plus side, his campfire stories were absolutely rivetting...he was a raconteur of the highest order IMHO.

I agree with many of the comments above, with regard to moderation. I will never judge anyone that knows their limit and stays within in it, whatever that may be. And maybe its the "Scot", "Brit" and/or "Canuck" in me, but I don't have an issue with guys that'll have a beer with lunch, etc, and even do it myself on occassion.

Cheers

Canuck

quote:

We would tie him to a tree close to where all the bones and guts are thrown, and leave him to enjoy a night with the hyaenas.

In fact, I know of an occasion when this happened. And the man would not touch a drink until he got home

Amazing how some methods of persuastion work.

Aversion therapy of the highest order. That would definitely scare most people "straight"!

I believe it is a holiday for the client, if he/ she want to have a beer or 2 on the back of the Cruiser on the way back to camp (after hunting that is), thats fine with me. I would also not intefere with his / her drinking scedule, unless it will affect his hunting. (It however is still his choice.)
As to me as a hunting outfitter telling a PH working for me he is not allowed to drink at all, well, I find that totally ridiculous. They are grown men, I will rather take him on if he did not socialise with the client(s) enough. If he had a drinking problem or even start to talk too much Sh%$# when he takes a few drinks, or if he is drinking more that moderately, or if it affects his performance at work, thats another story.

oh my CONTENTIOUS with capital letters for sure

Here is my 2 bits worth,

I have been hunting professionally since I was 19, with a long break and then from 29 years old, the first outfitter that gave me a job, was and still is in my opinion a great guy, we had a open bar in camp for clients and ph's, with elephant a case of Moet et Chandon was no problem, and I thought it was all part of the job,

then came the ?? looking at a couple of older PH's by that time they were around 45 +/- and I realized they looked like!@!@# red nosed veins bursting, whikey, brandy rum by the bottle full. I was 35 and realize with shock I am in the absoulte best business too become a alcoholic, shocker @#$!@$

I then hunted for another outfitter that had a no alcohol rule for emplyees, I thought he was mad, of course we are grown ups, and I started thinking again,

A year later I went on my own, Decision time, as now I was the outfitter and all, NO ALCOHOL FOR STAFF, ME INCLUDED

The guys that work for me has no problem with it, when the hunt ends , clients out of the way, I will even supply their drink of choice for a wind down, me I still do not drink during hunting season, so that leaves December with the family and friends, and low and behold I started drinking even less and less, my quack is impressed, my liver is as happy as hell, and I am happy with my decsions, but it remains my decisions and rules in my life.

I run a open bar for clients, and sometimes they unwind a little bit too much, and go back with a couple of scars they can not explain too the wife, but a 25 km hike in Zambezi valley normally cures that very quickly,

This as I have said is a contentious subject, but I feel my fist objective is too provide the best service too the client, and if something , heaven forbid has too happen on safari I do not need the caption " and my ph was too pissed too help " or the ph stank of booze " too be heard or seen in the follow up.

Please read my posts above. All I am looking for is moderation, and a guarantee of moderation before I plunk the money down.

It sounds like 1x1 hunting and carefully worded contracts are in my future.

I appeciate everyone who contributed to this post, and hope more will do so. Everyone is jumping off the fence one way or the other.

Think about that 30% of Americans who don't drink. That is a lot of money to ignore.

LD

The good news is that I won't be loading commercial ammunition with a hang-over. It will be very good stuff.

Obviously most of AR are closet members of the Salvo's.I expect my PH to sit up and drink with me till I an ready to stop.He can drink as little as he likes,I UNDERSTAND HE IS AT WORK AND I AM ON HOLIDAYS.But if I and my hunting companion(also a doctor) want to kill off a dozen beers and two bottles of wine it is OUR HOLIDAY.We are allways dressed at 5am and ready for breakfast-better than some of the tea totalers I have hunted with.The perculilar degree of sobriety amongst American hunters has resulted in every hunting camp I have been in running out of beer-some even having to fly it in.This happened despite them being warned,one even acussed the black staff of stealing it.
So PLEASE guys,for my sake,drink more when on safari so the they don't treat us Aussies as freaks.

One ph I knew drank up my weeks supply of scotch in two nights. Didn't seem to phase him a bit.

I for one will never tell an adult what to do or what not to do. On the other hand I am free not to associate with you either. Now I see nothing wrong with a toast to a head of game taken with a clean shot. After all its tradition. I see nothing wrong with a sundowner or two at the end of the day or a glass of wine or two with dinner.

I don't drink and found it interesting that the camp manager (an apprentice hunter) and the PH this summer were drinking cokes along with me. I told them I didn't care if they drank in the evening as we relaxed after FULL days of tracking ele in heavy cover...out came a beer or two but that was it. I was impressed by their professionalism. We did have a few laughs about the Italian PH and his clients that drank like fish that shared one of our camps.

It isn't hunting in Africa, but of the various camps I have been in here in America and in Canada, both the ones where I have been the client and the ones where I have been the guide or a member of the guide crew, I can only remember a couple of occasions where any one got out of line.

I enjoy beer, and have a real high tolerance for the stuff.

I don't do hard liquor.

All of the camps I run on my javelina hunts, beer is available and if a client wants to bring hard stuff, that is their business.

My experience has been that over 90% of folks in hunting camps, once the actual hunting begins, the drinking slows down.

From observation, it is usually first night in camp and the nights after the clients are successful when very much drinking is done.

Of course hunting in the states is not the same as chasing stuff that has a reall good chance of stomping the folks after it into greasy spots, and in that situation, I would want everyone involved to be at the top of their form.

As others have said it all comes down to moderation, and each individuals ability to handle alcohol in any amount, and compromising on what is expected fom everyone involved in the hunt.

I know personnally that if I ever get to go to Africa and hunt buffalo, if I kill one, I am gonna want someone to go back to camp and get a chit load of beer and I am gonna set there admiring that carcass until I run out of daylight.

Two subjects that bring out some interesting comments, or they seem to, are alcohol in camp and females in camp.

If it were me planning a hunt, of the magnitude of an African Safari, I would want to find an operation/PH that shared my philosophies on hunting and was willing to respect my wishes on such matters as alcohol or the lack there of in MY camp.

Because in the long run, regardless of the operation or where it is located or the PH involved, if it were not for the client footing the bill, that particular camp would not be happening. JMO, and Best of Luck on your adventure Lawndart.

I do drink, and I really enjoy a cold beer after a hot day.

My PH's in Namibia wanted to drink every night, I don't drink every night, sometimes I go a month without touching the stuff. So I was over my head.

I think if my PH wants to have a few with me I am all for it. If he doesn't drink then I probably won't either.

If we are drinking and we have a big night it should be expected that a later start the next morning is required.

I don't get too hung up what other people do as long as they are taking care of business.

Just like smoking, I don't smoke and I never have. If a guy has to burn one that's fine, as long as I am not sleeping in a cloud of smoke I am fine. I figure what a guy does to his inside is up to him.

Drinking is a hunting tradition, as long as it's not a drinking trip instead of a hunting trip I don't care.

I've hunted w/ a tea todler & a PH that drank some at night. As long as they are good to go the next am, I really don't have a problem with it. I don't drink much, don't really care for guys that do, but as long as it doesn't get in the way, go for it.

I don't use alcohol at all, but like Fredj338, it doesn't bother me for others in camp to use it, as long as it doesn't interfere with how my safari goes! I simply cannot abide a sloppy drunk, however!

A wee dram never hurt anyone.


A lot of drams - that's another story.

TerryR