Technically, since the SA High Court upheld the ban and refused leave to appeal, it is effectively illegal. That however doesn't mean it no longer happens and nor does it mean the problem only occurs in SA.

I'd encourage anyone considering a Lion hunt ANYWHERE in southern Africa to read this: http://www.shakariconnection.c...-and-wild-lions.html before they book.

Shakari - If it's illegal, then that's a different story.

GL Krause - Believe me, I don't want to glorify "high Fence" lion hunting either! I think it's a BS way to claim your trophy lion. However, I am just skeptical anytime one hunter tries to eliminate some form of hunting, because he does not agree with it. That worries me more.

Dave - We'll have to start a collect for your new job. See ya at DSC.

There's value in solidarity, but we don't want the hunting community to support anything no matter how distasteful just because it "might give the anti-hunters ammunition". I think not speaking out against practices that offend us do more harm than speaking out.

Regards,

Chuck

Agree or disagree on the subject matter,this is a good thread! We have shared a lot of viewpoints, had a great laugh or two (loved the 51% Comanche partner thing Lane) and have all done some thinking. Thats what a good forum will do, and Saeed has provided us all a great soapbox to climb onto whenever the mood strikes. I am off to the house to get in a pre New Year nap which I am sure will come in handy at 2am!!! I have enjoyed 2009 with my fellow AR posters and hope we all have a great evening and I look forward to more of the same in 2010.
All the best -HAPPY NEW YEAR !

In the end, the result of shooting pen raised lions is a black eye to all hunters. You can sugar coat it all you want but the end result is a lowering of respect for hunters by the non-hunting public.

465H&H

Happy New Year to all of you too!



Chuck

Happy New Year to all.

Hope everyone has a peaceful & prosperous 2010..... and how about that fantastic Aussie fireworks display!

I hope you all have a great hunting year in 2010!

465H&H

Dave Fulson's statement that this is a difficult issue if you consider the big picture makes me think of a comment made by a University of Cape Town Civil Engineering professor, Gert vdM Marais about a reaserch task I was working on:

" This is such a difficult problem that if you do not get totally confused when thinking about it, it only shows that you are not thinking clearly!"

Happy New Year & great hunting in 2010.

Andrew McLaren

When I see so many of these self righteous so called practitioners of ethical hunting now supporting canned hunting(of course with the obvious disclaimer in public that they would never practice it, god knows what happens behind closed doors)all I can wonder is what a hollow bunch. Don’t want to sound preachy or mention names; in previous threads I remember a few these very same chaps criticize a controversial PH over his methods of hunting. For a few days I to felt the way these guys did after reading their posts .But now I see at least that person was hunting his animals or is clients animals in the wild following the rules of fair chase with all the elements of danger that comes associated with hunting DG. Whereas, here we have a few closet canned hunters in the waiting, preaching in a lot many threads about hunting ethics as long as it matches their own convenience. However I do admire those few members who have always been consistent with their views.

Personally I would rather have this magnificent beast extinct than have it end up as target practice for some fat lard incapable of hunting a wild one but wants to have a fancy trophy in his living room

Happy New Year

ajsaxin - IMO your post kinda speaks to exactly what "some of us", are referring to as a whole. Many things in the HUNTING world happen that I do not agree with personally, but I try to support all hunters as long as what they do is legal! Don't be critical of MS and then be supportive of canned lion hunting, based on ethics, I think is what you are referring to? Please correct me if I am wrong? Well, some might find "canned lion" hunting ethical, but Sullivan's actions not so much. So I understand why they agree with one and not the other. But dis-agreeing and ridiculing are two different things. Ethics are all a personal issue, so I will tell you what I think.

I assure you, I am not a closet "canned lion" hunter. I have no interest in shooting a big male lion behind a fence. In fact, I was offered a "hunt" for one totally free of charge in 2008, but I turned it down. Not because I was totally disgusted by the practice, but because my personal idea of lion hunting is something totally different. I would never have felt proud of my accomplishment had I shot a big male lion behind a fence. So maybe you can call it ethics, but it's my personal ethics that kept me from doing it, not because of what anyone else thinks. On the flip side I do have a problem with totally trying to abolish it, especially if that lends any support to the anti-hunters movement to abolishing hunting all together. Other than this forum I will not lend time, money or effort to support those involved in it, but I will not fight to stop it either.

I also have nothing against MS, I think his videos were meant for entertainment and to make him money. I have talked with him in person numerous times, mainly about lion hunting of course. He has always been very courteous and accommodating. Just as with "Canned Lion" hunting, I DO NOT agree with some of his methods, and I certainly would not personally do some of the things I have seen him do on his videos. But I just can't support the MS ban whether it's on AR, from SCI, or any other hunting platform, just because I do not agree with him.

My hunting ethics are my own, and I have a problem with trying to push those on others, just as I have a big problem when others try to do that very same thing to me. I want to do my best to support all legalized hunting. I realize that some do not agree, but that's ok, we will never all agree on everything. I would just like to see a little less of the mean spirited hatred, name calling, and disgust for those who share our wonderful sport, simply because they do it differently! If one needs to let out those feelings, do it on the liberal, anti-American, pro-socialists that are trying to bring this country to it's knees. Like I said earlier, stand together or divided we fall. Just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by ajsaxin:

Personally I would rather have this magnificent beast extinct than have it end up as target practice for some fat lard incapable of hunting a wild one but wants to have a fancy trophy in his living room

Happy New Year

Talk about self-righteous!?

quote:

Personally I would rather have this magnificent beast extinct than have it end up as target practice for some fat lard incapable of hunting a wild one but wants to have a fancy trophy in his living room

quote:

Personally I would rather have this magnificent beast extinct than have it end up as target practice for some fat lard incapable of hunting a wild one but wants to have a fancy trophy in his living room

ajsaxin,

Welcome to the forum.


I would rather have every Tom Dick and Harry shoot lions in an enclosure rather than have them become extinct!

I think if we followed your reasoning, and seeing that you are from India, the lions fate would follow the fate of your own tigers.

quote:

I would rather have every Tom Dick and Harry shoot lions in an enclosure rather than have them become extinct!

Man...do I agree with that!!!!

I have never understood the difference between a lion and a white-tailed deer. Both are animals to me. I don't want to shoot either behind a fence. But some do.

Aaron,

With all due respect, I completely disagree with your statement that abolishing canned lion hunting will lend support to the ant-hunting movement. They really aren't the problem in my opinion. They are a small minority of radicals. They hardly mske up a significant voting block. The people we need to reach are the vast majority that are not hunters and not anti-hunters. They make up a voting block that is vastly larger than either the hunting block or anti-hunting block. In the past they have been supportive of hunting especially of hunting for meat or population regulation. That is the group that will see canned lion hunting for what it really is. Those are the ones we need to keep on our side of the fence.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
The people we need to reach are the vast majority that are not hunters and not anti-hunters. They make up a voting block that is vastly larger than either the hunting block or anti-hunting block. Those are the ones we need to keep on our side of the fence.

465H&H

100%

Dave

Thank you Saeed ,

The lion is never going to go the way the Indian tiger has at least not in the near future and definitely not because canned hunting was banned, for a lot many reasons besides the difference in the behavioral pattern of both the animals. No country in Africa is going to have 1 BILLION PPL as India does, so its habitat is not going to be destroyed as the tigers had been in India. BTW any one ever wondering why is it that the other sub species of the tiger has become extinct, I don’t think any Russia ever had a hunting ban on them(Siberian/Caspian tiger)? In short from what I see the main reason especially any large predator species become extinct is because of the loss of habitat, Now by making their existence economically viable we can extend their life span but at what costs, having the animal loss its very traits that we admire? The trick is to maintain a balance ,have the animal exist in the wild at the same time ensure that its existence is useful to the people of that region. I see a few African countries are doing well on that front.

Yes bad decisions have been made with the idea of appearing politically correct and to accommodate a false sense of morality my country’s decision makers have banned hunting. Surprising considering the fact that hunting as a sport was celebrated in India by the ruling elite for a few thousand +years. This was when the rest of the world only hunted for food. But then with the idea of have the species around would I support canned hunting no, I rather have a few 100 alive than have 10000 alive with every 100 being killed every year like cattle for slaughter. For anyone who finds no difference between hunting a white-tailed deer and a Lion all I can say is they should stick to hunting the white-tailed deer as am sure they would find no difference between the two so rather save the extra money they would spend on a lion.

The hunting community by banning canned hunts is not going to lose points in their fight with the antis but rather gain, because by banning we can show the rest of the world that we are pretty much capable of managing our business quite well and ethically and do not require any moral policing from someone who do not understand hunting as a sport.

465 H&H - I did not say that banning "canned lion hunting", lends support to the antis, if anywhere I did, that's not what I meant! I mean that if fellow hunters are constantly divided on hunting issues because one method or another goes against their own personal ethics. That then lends support to them in the sense that we are divided! Canned lion hunting being the example.

I should correct myself on one thing. I would not support any hunting or hunter if, in the event that said hunting practices had a negative effect on that particular species in a specific area. For example, I do not, and will not support those that are shooting obvious young and immature lions in the wild, or over-shooting the quota. That sort of practice can ONLY be detrimental to the overall success of the species in that area, and I will fight against those guys.

Hunting their own raised lions in SA is not detrimental to the species, and Sullivan's hunting practices though controversial, are not effecting the overall herd. I will not necessarily go out of my way to support these guys, I just don't want to ban them or fight against them, because I do not agree with all of their methods. Dave Fulson said it best. The antis are against any form of hunting, high fence or not. So we are better off to help each other and support each other, rather than fight amongst ourselves. That's really my whole point!

There is always some differences of opinion in any group or organization. I really don't see how that helps the antis. I do see the antis using the pen raising of lions,drugging them and then letting some idiot (I refuse to call them hunters.) shoot it to satisfy his ego or get him another level in SCI. That kind of conduct will make the non-hunters less likely to support us. I would rtather have us policing our own ranks then letting non-hunters or antis do it for us. That is why we have had so much trouble in some states (like California and Oregon)with the initiative process.

465H&H

As I see it, the antis will use it to whip up public opinion and as we all all know, the great unwashed (to coin a phrase) are as dumb as a sack of shit, but unfortunately, the politicians pay attention to them and before we could say knife, the idiot (western) politicians are trying to make life difficult for hunters at best and at worst, they're putting pressure on African politicians to ban African hunting.

Ok boys, sorry for the difference in opinion. I just want ALL hunters to have a mutual respect for eachother, regardless of our personal ethics or opinions. All the in-fighting serves no purpose, just my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:
Ok boys, sorry for the difference in opinion. I just want ALL hunters to have a mutual respect for eachother, regardless of our personal ethics or opinions. All the in-fighting serves no purpose, just my opinion.

Mr. Neilson:

I certainly respect and understand your thoughts on "mutual respect". I'm definatley not qualified to decide what is or is not ethical hunting. I feel fortunate indeed to have hunting values that my father taught me 50 years ago.

Times have changed, the world is shrinking and the increasing desire for instant gratification often forms new hunting trends. Economics are a driving force and (as they say) money talks. Interestingly, the increase in big game hunting popularity is primarily responsible for bringing back numerous species from the brink of extinction. Unfortunately, the same increase in hunting popularity has reached levels which squeezes the shrinking opportunities and creates the hunting farms.

I'm lucky to have lived during an era where fair chase hunting of wild big game animals was the gold standard. It is still what I believe to be true hunting. That being said, I am uncomfortable criticizing my hunting brothers (especially the younger ones) if they've chosen a different (but legal) path. I've tried to teach my sons the same values as I was taught by my Dad; however, I can tell they are skeptical of a 2 week elk hunt that does not ensure them a BC bull.

This has been an issue for fly fishers for several decades - wild trout versus "stockers". Utlimately, it has been the monitary power of fly fishers pushing for "wild" trout that has made a difference. I imagine it will be the same with pen raised lions. I'm guessing a "Lion Unlimited" organization will someday surface and become politically active. This how change occurs.

Just my 2-cents.

How do we say it is OK to hunt Kudu, Springbok, White-tailed deer, Elk, Red-Stag, etc. in high-fenced areas and with the same breath...say it is incorrect to hunt lion???

Again, I have never or will never shoot anything behind a fence. But in the southern tip of Texas...it is getting hard to find un-high-fenced country!!!

There's a big difference between the two in that the plains game species that are hunted in fenced areas have spent most if not all of their lives in that area. They know the terrain, the escape routes and the dangers (or otherwise) intimately. Most are born there, breed there and are usually self sufficient and self sustaining and have all their senses working.

The Lions on the other hand are pen bred and spend their entire lives in that same pen until they are drugged and transported to a completely alien environment, where they have no idea of terrain or escape routes, are not self sufficient or sustaining, have probably only spent a few hours in the area at most, have almost certainly never hunted for themselves and are more likely to walk towards humans or vehicles because they expect to be fed, rather than run away because the see a potential danger and are so full of 'vitamin K' they don't know if their arse is drilled or bored.

This is the first time I have entered the “Canned” hunting debate and I wish to tread lightly!

To a large extent this thing is a “typical home-grown South African Matza-pudding” To qualify this statement I may well offend a few people, but so be it. We have a culture here that tends to always test the limits when it comes to “creative profitability” There have been schemes hatched here over the years, some totally illegitimate and others downright unethical but still legal. It is no surprise that some farmer here one day learned that he could sell a Texan a “Lion-in-a-can” and once it started, well the rest is history……
Another national trait is that a big chunk of our population (particularly those of Germanic/Dutch extract) absolutely CRAVE rules and leadership.
Then there is the trait that dictates absolute interference in your neighbour’s life and extreme jealousy of other peoples fortune.

So what we had was a highly profitable but extremely unethical practice, quite legal, imbedded right within our own beloved sport and for some, their source of income.

FOUL we cried……….’ Let the GOVERNMENT legislate, we cried…..., It’s governments fault if it continues, we cried………..

So there you have it. The hunting hierarchy in South Africa have abdicated their influence to the state. They have set a precedent for supporting general legislation PER SPECIE (totally debunking the good argument that in terms of conservation any single organism is as important as the next) and we have begged for legislation that can now easily be expanded a specie at a time to eventually make un-viable any type of ranch hunting in South Africa. Should this be used as a “land-grab” strategy by making game ranching un-sustainable in the future, then the greatest conservation effort ever will have been destroyed. (I am referring to the hundreds of thousands of hectares which have converted from intensive livestock to game ranching over the last 30 years)

I offer another typical example of this short-sightedness; the introduction in the early 2000s of our new gun-laws. SAGA, which represented general gun ownership tried somewhat prematurely to tackle the constitutionality of the new law. The leadership of the hunting fraternity turned their backs on them then (there was provision for “dedicated hunters” that promised huge membership growth potential of hunting associations) and chose to “engage” the state to “make the system workable” in terms of the new law. In fact, BAD GUN LAW BECAME THEIR BUSINESS PLAN. Now the process which took four years to implement has run its course. Membership growth has reversed and suddenly they want to challenge the law?! A bit late now methinks…

I would be no more inclined to welcome anti canned-lion legislation than I would be inclined to ask parliament to write the “laws of cricket”. Animals get slaughtered daily in awful circumstances after living meaningless, caged lives to satisfy the hunger and greed of humans, including the “antis” whom we all seem too concerned about. We should get over our "guilt" feelings and apologetic approach.

Amongst ourselves as hunters we can call a spade a shovel, and in so doing perhaps limit the extent of such un-sporting practices. That should suffice if done with gusto.

From a legal perspective I simply cannot see that they can stop a man paying to shoot a captive lion for its mane and yet I could still legally go pay a beef farmer for a fatted Brahman, shoot it in the head with a .22, and slaughter it for my family! If we as hunters allow that distinction to hold water in law, we will be very vulnerable from now on.

quote:

Amongst ourselves as hunters we can call a spade a shovel, and in so doing perhaps limit the extent of such un-sporting practices. That should suffice if done with gusto.

From a legal perspective I simply cannot see that they can stop a man paying to shoot a captive lion for its mane and yet I could still legally go pay a beef farmer for a fatted Brahman, shoot it in the head with a .22, and slaughter it for my family! If we as hunters allow that distinction to hold water in law, we will be very vulnerable from now on.

Very true statement Stephen!

Stephan ... wow! Those are true words. Unfortunately the SAPS used the old “Divide and Rule” strategy very effectively with the 2000 gun law. They got hunters to stand against collectors, collectors against sportsman and association against association. In the end they got a bill passed that screwed every gun owner equally.

The anti hunters are doing exactly the same with us. We’ll destroy ourselves from within, while they just stand back to enjoy the spectacle. Why does the expression “useful idiots” come to mind?

It is so funny (but sad) when people cry out for governmental intervention when it suits their wants (need not here) and then bitch about the government actions when it is their Ox that is being gored!

I don't know if there is game farm breeders association in SA or not. If there is, then it would have been much better for them to have policed their own ranks and banned canned lion hunting themselves. With out such action, the gov't will stp in and do it. As I said it is better for us to police our own ranks then let the govt do it.

465H&H

quote:

From a legal perspective I simply cannot see that they can stop a man paying to shoot a captive lion for its mane and yet I could still legally go pay a beef farmer for a fatted Brahman, shoot it in the head with a .22, and slaughter it for my family! If we as hunters allow that distinction to hold water in law, we will be very vulnerable from now on.

My point exactly!

Actually, from a legal perspective, what they've done is to make (legal) lion breeding/shooting not financially viable because of the time the animals have to be self sustaining. (See below)

In reality, whilst I'd personally like to see a complete, straightforward ban on the entire practice, I reckon this requirement will be impossible to police and whilst I find the situation regrettable to say the least, my guess is that nothing will change and the farmers will just be more circumspect in their operations..... Although that might change if one or two are caught and punished.

I'll preface this statement by saying, the following comments are an observation and NOT a criticism in any way.

I have to disgree with Stephen about his comments of the people here in SA of Germanic/Dutch extraction. (Afrikaaners by another name) craving rules and leadership. It was their hatred of those very things that caused them to trek, fight wars against the Brits and mould South Africa into what it was, is and will become. Their influence on the country and it's attitudes have been and still are phenomenal.

It's that same reluctance to accept enforced authority that made the Lion breeders take the attitude that it's their animal and what they do with it us up to them and nothing to do with anyone else that created the situation in the first place..... and incidentally, also caused to various provincial game laws to be written the way they were all those years ago.

If anything, I'd say that the Afrikaaners are some of the most independent people in the world and the most likely to reject Governmental authority etc (a bit like the Texans!) ....... and I have to say, I like that trait immensely!


Africa : South Africa: Lions face slaughter as South Africans battle over 'canned hunting’
on 2009/12/30 1:57:00
An attempt to regulate the hunting of lions bred in captivity and released as prey would force parks to cull animals, it is claimed.

Lions are reared for clients who pay as much as £20,000 to hunt them.

The South African authorities have come under pressure to outlaw so-called “canned hunting” and have put forward a measure stipulating that lions must roam freely for two years before they can be targeted. Breeders have fought the new regulations, claiming that they would be driven out of business.

A court action brought by breeders failed and they were denied leave to appeal. They have now asked the Supreme Court to rule on whether the measure violates constitutional protections of private property.

Carel van Heerden, the chairman of the South African Predator Breeders’ Association, said that if judges decided not to hear the case, “it will be the end of the road for us”.

“It will be a devastating effect on our members, it will be a sad day for South Africa. It will take away the economic value of every lion,” he added.

The association’s members own around 4,300 lions, each of which costs about £800 a month to feed.

“They will have to kill them,” said Mr van Heerden. “It’s going to be a slaughter.

“If you have to make a decision whether you are going to have to feed those lions and you are not going to get any income from that you are going to have no alternative but to kill them, which is very sad. We don’t breed lions to kill them, we breed them to hunt them.”

Lionesses fetched trophy fees of around £3,000, he said, with males worth as much as £20,000. More than 1,000 government permits are issued annually for the hunting of lions and the export of trophies, mostly to America.

Critics claim that the captive lions are inbred and vulnerable to illness.

quote:

...I'd say that the Afrikaaners are some of the most independent people in the world and the most likely to reject Governmental authority etc...

Bloody hell, I knew this day would come!
$*^*%^$*$ ! Steve, finally you say something regarding lion hunting in SA that I can agree with. I’ve waited a long time for this to happen.

However, as a Afrikaner, I must unfortunately add: while my people hate others making rules for us, most of us just love making rules and regulations for all other people. It’s a trait that irritates the @#$%^&* out of me.

From the perspective of an outsider looking in and who has a great many Afrikaaner friends, I'd say they like to have a pecking order and know where every individual stands in that pecking order..... maybe that's old fashioned and/or maybe I'm old fashioned, but it seems to me that it's a bloody good trait.

With children for example, I doubt I've ever seen an Afrikaans child behave disresptfully to an adult and I'd bet they're one of the very very few nations that still call people older than themselves, uncle, auntie or oom for example.

In the UK, the youth are more likely to kick you in the bollocks, steal your wallet and call you a silly old fucker than they are to treat you well and call you uncle!

That inate politeness & respect is (IMO) also shared with the Texans.

ADDED,

I've just remembered a good example of Afrikaans politeness and respect etc.

About 30 years ago, I was walking down the street in Kempton Park and there were two young men probably about 14 years of age and in school uniform walking towards me and a couple of paces behind them, was an adult. As these youngsters passed me, the guy behind, reached out and clapped them so hard round the head, their hats fell off and they both staggered. He then gave them a real bollocking in Afrikaans.

He stopped me and explained he was a house master at their school and would I mind giving him a minute of my time....... turned out the boys hadn't raised their hats to me and acknowledged me as they went past. He made them apologise to me (in English) and then go back and walk past me again properly, this time with a raised had and a 'good moorer meineer' (I appreciate my Afrikaans spelling is shit and aplogise for that).

I don't think that would quite happen nowadays but certainly in my town here, I'd still get a polite nod and a smile at the very least.

In the UK, there's no way on God's earth, you'd ever see that kind of polite behaviour.

Steve, I did say I would tread lightly and as such must qualify my statement “Germanic/Dutch” extract. I too have a big chunk of Afrikaans blood flowing through my veins (the other bits are Greek & Irish )
I was not trying to avoid the use of the term Afrikaner, but was actually being very specific about a certain set of traits that occur in a certain lot of Afrikaners (and some Anglicised) South Africans. In fact, the Afrikaner as a total group display HUGE variations of character traits, and in fact THIS is what I consider their true strength and quality. They just haven’t realised it yet! They cling to their “Unity is Strength” in spite of a history that proves that they’ve never fully achieved unity. I believe that it’s time they (we) apply “Strength through Diversity” as a credo, and strategise accordingly. They say the height of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. After losing a country and three flags under “Eendracht Maak Magt” it’s time for a re-think

To be more specific now, I know in my heart that in my case my automatic disdain and rejection of authority stems from the Greek blood in me. My kids (all 4 pre-teen) attend a local Afrikaans school, and frankly I think you are being very flattering regarding that good behaviour you describe. I consider my kids absolute rascals, but when I look at their classroom peers I count my blessings! The school I attended in Joburg was one of the old English Public School types and in my day (late 1970s) we would have behaved in exactly the way you described those two young Afrikaner boys were expected by their master to behave. It was the times and not the nationality I think. Different towns in SA also have totally different natures in terms of friendliness & politeness and the rural ones are obviously better in this regard which I’m sure is an international phenomenon in general. Rural towns are more likely to be predominantly Afrikaans speaking (my personal favourite in this regard is Upington & its surrounds)

As to the main issue, Canned Livestock, Shakari I have no doubt that you and I would happily share the same campfire as regards the un-palatability of the practice and in fact on all matters that constitute hunting as against shooting. It’s what to do about it where we may have to agree to disagree.
Firstly, I don’t believe any action of a hunter should ever be motivated by our “concern” for “anti-hunters” (I do believe that we should concern ourselves with “Non-hunters” though) By this I say we are too often on the defensive and sometimes bordering on apologetic in our justification for “being human”. I am even attacked by members within my own family and it is not difficult to send them away, with their tails between their legs, scheduling a special appointment with their psycho-analyst to do repair on their newly acquired guilt complexes (I simply educate them that they are too mentally feeble to take personal responsibility for the death and destruction they sow, and the size of their carbon footprint they tread, by supporting the highly unsustainable food procurement processes they choose in their blinkered and sanitised interpretation of civilisation. Of course they’re quick to say they don’t KILL anything themselves personally, to which my response is that Hitler also never killed a single Jew; he too simply placed the order…)

The South African model in terms of hunting is by its nature fenced private land with plenty of put-and-take practices. Accept this fact. When I started to look for game farms to hunt back in the early 80s you could not find more than 8 or 10 in the “for sale” section of Landbou Weekblad (Afrikaans Farmers Weekly) There was no live game for sale, or hunting on offer, either. The only hunting magazine was SA Man/Magnum. It too offered no hunting then.
Since the explosion of demand for exactly this style of ranch hunting it has become a major industry and a very large part of South African agriculture. There are pages of farms, game sales & hunting, in a myriad of publications. Animals that were a crazy dream 25 years back are available in numbers. It is a success story and if the more well heeled and discerning hunter chooses to turn his nose up at it so be it. More for us……Nature has certainly been the big winner. Drive any South African rural road and you again see all forms of biodiversity that simply was not there 30 years ago. Harsh intensive farming practices had degraded the habitat, and ranch style game farming has restored it - period.

Now I just cannot see creating one special set of rules, within that scenario, for just one specie or group as the answer. A trout in Dullstroom, raised on feed pellets, can be caught in a bucket sized pond and placed in the “angler’s” smoker with nary a thought. Kudu are far more “canned” than lion nowadays. Hunts occur daily on farms barely 200ha in size. We as hunters have become emotional in our reaction to the slaughter of one specific specie of cat and are guilty by that reaction, to what anti-hunting sorts are guilty of over the whole gamut of species.

Americans have generally done a better job of protecting their rights by the absolute non-acceptance of any slight onslaught against any of those rights. The NRA does not negotiate each little erosion of rights to find “common ground” with the anti’s. There is NO acceptable give, when it comes to rights. Here however, I have often heard our own hunting associations tell us hunting is a privilege, not a right? BOLLOCKS!!! I hunt because I’m human. Do not take away my humanity….We in fact sit with a parliament that still has some sense of reality when it comes to the fact that ANIMALS DIE for us. We just are not yet engaging them proactively enough. We need to promote the cultural rights of others within our diverse nation, in order to entrench our own.

I do not say I have the absolute answer to solving the canned lion situation, but I know it cannot be done by the hunting fraternity allying itself with the state in promoting any kind of restrictive legislation. That simply does not sit well within my gut instinct.

Footnote: These are my personal views and opinions and do not necessarily reflect the position of my specific hunting associations.

Stephen,

A very good post.

In rebuttal, I'll say that personally, I think it's gonna be very hard to find a truly workable solution to canned Lion hunting in SA and beyond..... I certainly don't think the current ruling is the answer because I don't think it can be policed effectively. (IMO) All it will mean is the unscrupulous breeders may(?) simply develop more shennanigans and maybe smuggle more to other African countries where they'll be introduced as ringers and more hunters will be taken in.

As much as I'm reluctant to say it, I think the only effective way to stamp out the practice for good is to ban Lion hunting and Lion breeding in SA completely and have the game dept staff shoot the very occasional problem animal that occurs. I freely admit that's a very radical statement but I don't see any other real solution.

Regarding your comment about kudu and Lions...... I'd suggest you visit the you tube site look at some of their more obviously canned Lion hunts. Some of the animals are so doped up, they can't get their heads off the ground and I have to say, some of the hunters appear to be almost as shit for brained, because many of them seem to behave as though they think the animal is truly wild. The fact that they post their 'hero videos' where the world can see them, would I believe, back up my opinion.

I fail to see how it can be right for us hunters to condone that sort of despicable practice and if we can't condone it, we need to completely condemn it.

I agree with you that we shouldn't be afraid of the antis....... however, I believe we need to be extremely cautious at the very least, of the general public and politicians worldwide.

The antis can, (at least in Africa) be ignored on their own but my concern is that they'll whip up popular opinion amongst the (mostly pig ignorant) general public and then the politicians (worldwide) will see the banning or restriction of ALL hunting/trophy shipments etc as a vote winner. Once they do that, they'll all start squealing about how bad hunting is and before you know it, we either have no trophy shipments at best or no hunting at worst. (IMO) Far better that we as hunters do and be seen to do what we know is right in the first place, which is stamp out the dodgy Lion trade properly.

I believe we can easily defend the defendable but also that we cannot defend the indefensible because if we try, we lose both.

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The school I attended in Joburg was one of the old English Public School types and in my day (late 1970s) we would have behaved in exactly the way you described those two young Afrikaner boys were expected by their master to behave. It was the times and not the nationality I think.

It is the same here in Texas. As a child of the late 60's early 70's, I was paddled 10 -15 times in the first grade alone just for talking in class.

Now days, even in Texas, if a teacher even thinks of paddling, she might be fired, face criminal charges, or face a law-siut.

It is my believe that is OUR fault for letting it get that way.

It is this same general trend though that breeds the anti-hunters.

I think if you did a scientific analysis...one would find a strong correlation between anti-hunting and anti-spanking.

Steve is right about Afrikaners and Texans being similar as well as Southern Rhodesians and Texans being similar.

Growing up in an old Texas Ranching Family...captive bred lions are just livestock and the sole property of the rancher to be done with as seen fit.

A new study, just published in the US, showed that kids that were spanked were more successful later in life!!!

Political correctness has a lot to answer for all over the world!

In the UK nowadays, hunters are viewed in a worse light than paedophiles and putting a hunting association sticker on your car is tantamount to asking some prick to tip a can of paint over it.

In Zim I noticed that young men tipped their cap as they shook hands with their elders (me). As we handed out candy to the little village kids the girls would curtsy. In the US I've only seen signs of respect from our young military personnel, although I have yet to see a Marine curtsy.

Ledvm- As a comment to your earlier post, the difference to many(include me here!) between the plains game and apex predators inside the fence is simply the manner in which the animals are handled. The lions are fed until they can be hunted. The plains game are self sustaining. The lions get constant care, the plains game get none or very little. The simple mathematics of the food source prevents the landowners from feeding the lions anything other than commercially produced pet food. So I take that information( and please, ANYONE who knows differently, please post) and it leads me to side with 465H&H thoughts on the subject. Food for the anti hunting gang. Remember the Sandy McDonald debacle and what that exposure did for "us" ? No easy answers!