The Daily Telegraph, in Britain, reports that South Africa's lion-hunting business is under threat.

The specific target is "canned hunting", in which lions are bred in captivity, then released into a closed area where they can be "hunted" by people willing to pay the huge fees involved. Killing a girl lion is worth about $6,000, killing a boy lion could cost up to $40,000. There is no equality of the sexes in killing lions.

The anti-lion-killing lobby says the whole industry is a disgrace, because the lions have no chance. Since they're raised in captivity they hardly have the skills to escape hunters once they've been released, and are limited to a confined area in any case. Might as well shoot them in the pen and save all the bother. They're pressuring the government to ensure lions have at least two years in the bush to acclimatize themselves before they can be targeted.

The lion-hunting industry is aghast.

“It will be a devastating effect on our members, it will be a sad day for South Africa. It will take away the economic value of every lion,” Carel van Heerden, the chairman of the South African Predator Breeders’ Association, tells the Telegraph.

If that happens, he says, the breeders will have no choice: “They will have to kill them ... It’s going to be a slaughter."

So here's where we get to the dodgy logic part: If the lions have no economic value, the breeders will have to kill them. Which is bad. Because if lions still had economic value, the hunters could kill them. And that would be good.

For the breeders, presumably. Can't see the lions agreeing.

National Post

Photo: "Canned lions" in an enclosur

Read more: http://network.nationalpost.co...mments#ixzz0b77K7yQe
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This is a real tricky subject and I have tried personally to look at it objectively. Personally I will kill a bred pheasant but have a problem killing a (canned / bred) lion, deer or elk etc. Maybe its the same thing, like a pheasant thats bred to be killed so is a lion, deer or other big game animal!!! I guess man's greed and ego is infinite!

However, even if one where to ignore the major issue that it is not sporting to kill an animal in a small closed enclosure. I have a hard time justifying to myself that it is a hunt (not really) worth paying a lot of money for. You know the outcome before you go, heck you can even get pictures of the animal you want to shoot so where is the "hunt" element, skill or luck I fail to see!!!

One may as well go on ebay or call a taxidermist and buy a trophy........far cheaper.

The argument that banning canned lions will put pressure on wild lions is also BS. If you can't afford a wild lion hunt then you don't hunt one it's as simple as that in my view.

I dont mean to preach from the pulpit its just my views

Reddy
I have to disagree brother. I have pitched and talked to LOTS of hunters in the past who have talked to me about a wild lion hunt, but then opted for a SA lion which they booked, killed, brought home and showed me photos of. The SA lions do, without any doubt take pressure off wild lions, a fact that most PH's I have discussed the matter with agree. I have changed my feelings on the matter over the years as I have studied this matter up close. If a guy wants a farmed lion, and knows he is killing a farmed lion, I am okay with it. If he is given the BS about his cat "swimming the river from Botswana, or being called in fro Mozambique" then I have a problem with it. I know several guys that shot a cat on this scam and still believe that they killed a wild lion. Either that or they do not want to look at the situation too close as they may not like what they discover. I will probably be blasted for this, but I bet I have more experience around the lion game than most who will spank me. I am for hunting wild lions- but I am okay with the SA thing as I do believe takes pressure off wild lion quotas.

Dave Fulson...

+1

I hold much the same postion as you.

Arjun,

I'm in agreement with Dave. If it's legal I don't have a problem with it. I don't think shooting a captive lion is hunting myself but I can't see the downside. The antis may find issue with captive bred lions but you know when you take the emotion out of it this breeding lions to be shot is no different than hunting a kudu that was just released from the game capture truck or the pheasants you mentioned. How about hunting a big bison bull. You ride out into the pasture, pick out the one you want and shoot him. It might take a litte while to find him but the outcome is assured.

As long as the hunter is under no illiusion that the lion is wild I think its fine if that's what you want.

I think we are just a litte bit too righteous when it comes to what is hunting and what is not.

Mark

quote:

Reddy
I have to disagree brother. I have pitched and talked to LOTS of hunters in the past who have talked to me about a wild lion hunt, but then opted for a SA lion which they booked, killed, brought home and showed me photos of. The SA lions do, without any doubt take pressure off wild lions, a fact that most PH's I have discussed the matter with agree. I have changed my feelings on the matter over the years as I have studied this matter up close. If a guy wants a farmed lion, and knows he is killing a farmed lion, I am okay with it. If he is given the BS about his cat "swimming the river from Botswana, or being called in fro Mozambique" then I have a problem with it. I know several guys that shot a cat on this scam and still believe that they killed a wild lion. Either that or they do not want to look at the situation too close as they may not like what they discover. I will probably be blasted for this, but I bet I have more experience around the lion game than most who will spank me. I am for hunting wild lions- but I am okay with the SA thing as I do believe takes pressure off wild lion quotas.

My thoughts on the issue are:

if that is the way you want to hunt lion, go ahead. The problem is that you are not going to come home and tell all of your buddies and your honey that you shot this gorgeous full maned lion out of a fenced-in pen. You will have to fabricate this amazing story of a week (or more)long hunt, and baits, and all that jazz. The deception is what bothers me. That, and having to wait to take the pictures until the tracker takes the ear tag out!

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Reddy
I have to disagree brother. I have pitched and talked to LOTS of hunters in the past who have talked to me about a wild lion hunt, but then opted for a SA lion which they booked, killed, brought home and showed me photos of. The SA lions do, without any doubt take pressure off wild lions, a fact that most PH's I have discussed the matter with agree. I have changed my feelings on the matter over the years as I have studied this matter up close. If a guy wants a farmed lion, and knows he is killing a farmed lion, I am okay with it. If he is given the BS about his cat "swimming the river from Botswana, or being called in fro Mozambique" then I have a problem with it. I know several guys that shot a cat on this scam and still believe that they killed a wild lion. Either that or they do not want to look at the situation too close as they may not like what they discover. I will probably be blasted for this, but I bet I have more experience around the lion game than most who will spank me. I am for hunting wild lions- but I am okay with the SA thing as I do believe takes pressure off wild lion quotas.

Dave,

I agree with you on the above except for the part that clients are unaware they are shooting a farm bred lion.

I think 99% of KNOW what they are getting into, but prefer to listen to what lies they are fed by the PH.

I have absolutely no problems with people wanting to shoot a farmed lion. It is their choice, and it certainly not for me to tell them otherwise.

Saeed
I was a little tongue in cheek on that. I too think that the VAST majority of guys know what is going on on these deals. But I know two guys that fell into a situation that they really do think that the lion came across the river, killed the dead cow by the waterhole ( ALWAYS the set up) and he was in the right place at the right time. Funny that there is never a lioness on the scene on these deals, just well maned males. But those who think that only less well healed guys do the farm thing, think again. I am very close to a couple of the SA lion guys and can promise you that much of their clientele could hunt any block in Tanzania with financial ease. Many want a guarenteed cat-end of story. They are happy to forego tsetse bites, heat,hard work and the like. They want a lion now- they will worry about a story later.

As I've said before, I loathe the practice and see it as the biggest threat to true African hunting today. Sooner or later the antis will use it to beat us over the head with and their goal won't be to try to stop Lion hunting, it'll be to stop ALL African hunting.

See here: http://www.captiveanimals.org/hunting/index.htm

As for it relieving pressure on wild populations, I don't think that argument holds water, because wild populations and quotas are set by game depts & CITES etc and have absolutely no relation to the farmed populations.

With the tame.... oops, sorry pen bred Lions Lion situation, when the practice is banned, it'll just mean the poseurs who currently shoot canned ones because they don't have the bollocks to do the job as it should be done, will either have to go and hunt one properly or do without....... I don't have a problem with that!

http://www.shakariconnection.c...canned-shooting.html

http://www.shakariconnection.c...-and-wild-lions.html

To me, African hunting should be as Sher Jung described when he wrote:

The jungle is the place to test one’s mettle and one’s skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it’s own choosing and to outwit it in it’s own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
Saeed
Many want a guarenteed cat-end of story. They are happy to forego tsetse bites, heat,hard work and the like. They want a lion now- they will worry about a story later.

And that is the problem - IT IS NOT HUNTING!

Leopold 1933

Wildlife management is the business of keeping wild things wild. Hunters would do well to recognize the connections between fair chase and wildlife management, as opposed to animal husbandry, and seriously consider the consequences of ignoring the relationships, both for the resource and the hunter.

Whether it's canned lion hunting or any of the other canned safari hunting, the antis all have the very same agenda: to stop hunting altogther. This is, and always has been, just the tip of the iceberg, or if you will, the nose of the camel under the tent. Once they have stopped canned lion hunting, all other canned Safari hunting will be next on their agenda. Don't fool yourselves into believing otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Once they have stopped canned lion hunting, all other canned Safari hunting will be next on their agenda.

We should be policing our own sport so that canned hunting doesn't happen. ALL hunting should be fair chase and everything else should be banned.

As I said, To me, African hunting should be as Sher Jung described when he wrote:

The jungle is the place to test one’s mettle and one’s skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it’s own choosing and to outwit it in it’s own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it.

The problem is in the definition of "fair chase" which has been debated on AR (like the canned lion hunting issue), ad naseum. To an anti, hunting captive bred safari animals behind high fences while driving around in bakkies from fence perimeter to fence perimeter, in search of the trophy sought, all the while using binos, high powered scopes and rifles, range finders, etc. etc. etc. is all canned safari hunting to them. So, where do you draw the line? Antis will not stop with the canned lion hunting issue. In South Africa it will then move to rhino, giraffe, cape buffalo, and elephant, and then on to the captive bred antelope, all of which, for the most part, are not technically free roaming and can be debated as being "fair chase" or not. Just some food for thought as we continue to address this issue for the umpteenth time. The only thing that might not be considered canned hunting would be warthog-as they tend to dig under the fences and escape on a regular basis. As long as it's legal, the hunters know what they're hunting and how, then Saeed is correct in his assessment. +1

The big difference I see is that Shakari makes sense, and the rest of you don't.

Shakari...I bet you were just waiting for me to chime in!! hahaha To anyone reading we had this debate...

Previous Post by myself

I want to qualify my opinions, by saying, that I'm a research fellow, my field being based in genetics, reproductive technology, and disease in wildlife at a veterinary school.

My whole concern is this, of the 1000 or so lions that are supposedly legally harvested each year from Africa, roughly 1/3 were coming from RSA. Minus this 1/3, the other 2/3 (wild lions) will have heightened pressures added to their survival. The loss of habitat, their interaction with people/livestock, and hunters will be the end for lions. Don't take this the wrong way, I want to hunt lions, and I'm doing my very best to do it soon, because in the not so distant future, I don't believe you will be able to. I"m very PRO Lion hunting, and RSA captive bred lions to me was a genius way to ensure lion hunting forever. There are other species, ones I've listed above that have only survived extinction because of captive breeding.

The idea of putting down all those lions is crazy. The loss of the genetic diversity within those populations will be a crime. Despite the General idea that they would all be imbred, there will be significant genetic differences because I'm sure that the founding cats probably came from a very large geographic distribution, and the loss of those genes will be a negative. All it will take is a disease to re-appear and knock "wild lion populations to its knees" and it could be the end for lions as we know it.

The lions in captivity serve two purposes,
1. Reduce pressure on wild populations
2. Serve as a reserve population in case of a catastrophic event

For Hunters it serves as an chance to hunt an animal that is the king of beasts, and there's quite a few of us out there that can go spend 50k-70k on a free range lion. Go to an SCI function and start counting the people there under 30, you won't find many. And that is going to be one of the Lions worst enemy, because whenever there stops being a price for their heads, they will dissapear. I personally wouldn't be ashamed of hunting one that was released, as stated before, I don't want one that drugged, and would expect that it didn't step off the trailer an hour before I got there. Would I prefere a 21 day tanzania quest, sure, but that isn't in my financial future, and I make a great living. Same reason I drive a Tahoe, and not an Escalade, same car, less bells and whistles.

As far as a difference between plainsgame and lions, I see no difference between feeding lions horse meat and kudu apples. And there are places (especially for bowhunters, not crapping on them, cause I've bowhunted like crazy) that people sit next to a waterhole, hay stack, and apple barrel and shoot trophies, YET once again, that's deemed OK. Roosevelt, rode lions into exhaustion by horseback, and then shot them, anyone have a problem with that?

I find it humerous, when people start trying to define Hunting vs Shooting/Killing. There are some species in certain enviroments that are not hard to hunt. I would think most would agree with that. Say, Pronghorn in New Mexico, drive around, shoot them all day. But I see people saying they hunted them and no ones calls them out. I know some guys that can shoot 6-700 yrds extremely well...and that animal never sees it coming, because they aren't in the same area relatively, no one wants to crap on long range shooters. I also know people who go out and find the biggest whatever, on the first morning, if you ran into a herd of 70lbs on the 1st morning of your 21 day safari, and shoot a big gull, is that now considered shooting, and not hunting???? Has anyone other than myself, missed an animal, and the animal just stood there, allow for a second shot, is that hunting, or killing??? It's all the same, just depends who the "HOLYER than THOU PERSON" who's talking shit.

If hunters start drawing lines in the sand, throwing stones, at our own members, than HUNTING will lose. I'm all for hunting in any way fashionable that is deemed legal by a country, state, etc... And thats the attitude that should be adopted if you are seriously interested in protecting the RIGHTS to HUNT. We've got enough enemies, we shouldn't have to worry about coming under attack from within.


"wildlife drives the engines of economic prosperity"

The deal is simple from a Scientific opinion...captive Bred lions are the best thing to ensure the survival of wild lion populations.

DAVE---- KUDOS to you for standing up as a pro-captive lion hunting, because you are most certainly correct in your statement considering it's regard to wild lion population pressures.

"Just because it's legal doesn't make it right. Just because it's right doesn't make it legal"


Chuck

Yeah, that's what we say about legalized prostitution here in Nevada. By the way, hunting in South Africa is legal, but the antis say it isn't right. And if they have their way, all of the safari hunting there will be outlawed, starting with the canned lion hunts and working their way up the canned safari chain. And, that makes perfect sense.

Ditto what Dave Fulson says, I feel the same. Secondly, everyone doing a "Canned" or "High Fence" lion hunt knows the facts. They may claim something different, but you would have to be a complete moron not to know what's going on!

(Yeah, that's what we say about legalized prostitution here in Nevada. By the way, hunting in South Africa is legal, but the antis say it isn't right. And if they have their way, all of the safari hunting there will be outlawed, starting with the canned lion hunts and working their way up the canned safari chain. And, that makes perfect sense.)

You are right! Why give them the ammunition and money they needs to stop sport hunting!! Sport hunters are under a huge microscope by the non hunting public world wide. The conduct of a few people today will have huge impact on future legislation impacting all of us tomorrow!

Guys I have a serious question. Are ALL lion taken in South Africa from high fence operations? Are there any truly "wild" lions in SA available? Not trying to stir the pot, just want some clarifacation.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
As I've said before, I loathe the practice and see it as the biggest threat to true African hunting today. Sooner or later the antis will use it to beat us over the head with and their goal won't be to try to stop Lion hunting, it'll be to stop ALL African hunting.

See here: http://www.captiveanimals.org/hunting/index.htm

As for it relieving pressure on wild populations, I don't think that argument holds water, because wild populations and quotas are set by game depts & CITES etc and have absolutely no relation to the farmed populations.

With the tame.... oops, sorry pen bred Lions Lion situation, when the practice is banned, it'll just mean the poseurs who currently shoot canned ones because they don't have the bollocks to do the job as it should be done, will either have to go and hunt one properly or do without....... I don't have a problem with that!

http://www.shakariconnection.c...canned-shooting.html

http://www.shakariconnection.c...-and-wild-lions.html

To me, African hunting should be as Sher Jung described when he wrote:

The jungle is the place to test one’s mettle and one’s skill. It is a place for personal and individual adventure. To tackle the adversary on the ground of it’s own choosing and to outwit it in it’s own game of woodcraft is the real joy and thrill of hunting. Always remember that hunting is not just killing animals, it is much more than killing; Killing is the least important part of it.

Well said Steve...

I should say that I've had quite a lot of very interesting emails with Oryxhunter and that I find the work he's doing extremely interesting and laudable and have already offered to do anything I can to help the project.

However, on the subject of what might be termed these excess lions from the breeding projects etc:

Lions breed very easily and in the relatively unlikely event of some kind of massive population die off, there is already plenty of frozen eggs/sperm around the world to alleviate the situation. One could if it were felt necessary, harvest even more from the pen bred population before they were humanely destroyed.

To keep them alive would only mean that they can be smuggled into other areas/countries where the practice of illicit canned shooting might continue. Put them down and that can't happen.

There's also the factor that keeping them alive in case there were a collapse of the wild population would only give you 'insurance' for a few short years anyway because we all die in the end.

The scientific fact is that we don't need to keep them alive to preserve their genetic diversity because we already have that in frozen bucketfuls.

There's also the question of who will pay to keep them alive. Africa can't feed it's human population let alone thousands of pen bred Lions that can't be used for anything.

As for the captive Lions reducing the pressure on the wild populations.... Sounds good until you pause to think about that..... the theory simply doesn't even begin to hold water because the captive population and the wild population are totally divorced from each other. The wild population (as far as hunting in concerned) is carefully controlled by game depts and CITES quota and they set a number of Lions that may be hunted. Once the quota is filled, no more may be hunted for that year. Remember the quota isn't decided on the basis of hunter demand, it's decided on the basis of practical offtake to maintain healthy populations.

It also isn't practical to allow more wild ones to be shot to accommodate hunter demand and replace them with released ex captive animals because that would result in the new incoming males killing the cubs and one animal released would mean the death of many cubs, therefore, you do more harm than good to the wild population.

As for shooting captive Lions because they're cheaper than a wild Lion hunt, yup, they are but that's the very thing we're trying to stamp out. To encourage it, would be sheer lunacy and would give a whole new bunch of ammo to the antis who would promptly use it as a weapon to try to get ALL African hunting banned. We must police ourselves and if we don't, then someone else will do it for us, whether we like it or not..... and you can bet your life, they won't be pro hunting!

Like most things in life, if one can't afford it, one can't have it and the same must go for Lions. - Hell, I'd like a new Dodge Ram pick up but at close to a million rand, I can't have one. Simple as that.

As for the argument that 'captive Bred lions are the best thing to ensure the survival of wild lion populations'.

I would question that statement and suggest that a more accurate statement would be:

correct wild Lion manangement and ethical hunting practices, combined with carefully planned artificial insemination when/if necessary are the best things to ensure the survival of wild Lion populations.

Sorry for such a long post.

quote:

Originally posted by Kensco:
The big difference I see is that Shakari makes sense, and the rest of you don't.

Its like Deja Vu all over again. Since we go through this same argument every couple of years, I've decided to spare my finger tips and just cut and paste my thoughts from the last go round...

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:
The most precious hunting resource in Africa are wild lions. They are the ultimate barometer of the health of wild African habitat for all the game we pursue. Anything that detrimentally impacts wild African lions is a detriment to our safari experience and dreams.

Thankfully, there is little or no contamination of the wild lion gene pool from captive lions. The genetic material resulting from multiple generations of captive breeding programs is worthless at best for wild lions. The genetic make-up of a cocker spaniel is of little value for wild wolves.

Wild lions are worth a lot, a WHOLE LOT. They should be priced accordingly. They are way out of my reach now and that doesn't bother me a bit. It doesn't make me want to go shoot a pen raised lion either.

I think canned lion shooting actually DECREASES the availability of wild lions for hunting. Generally the people going after canned lions are not the same as the hunters going after wild lions. At the margin though, some wild lion hunts compete on price with canned hunts. Here, the availability and price of the canned hunts can cause downward pressure on the price of certain wild lion hunts. Anything that lowers the value of wild lions is not good.

Marginal wild lion areas with low odds of success or low lion quality are probably most heavily impacted (with regards to price) by the availability of canned lions. If hunters won't pay a high price for these wild lion hunts then of course then there will less effort on the part of the government, the local populace, and safari companies to protect the wild lion resource. If wild lions were worth a million dollars each, we'd have plenty of them.

Wild lions require a LOT of real estate and there are conflicting demands for that real estate in many areas. Although few of us can afford a wild lion hunt, all of us benefit from the protection of all that lion real estate. It's the home for the rest of our wild game animals.

Where I hunted lion, Lobo and Lolkisale in TZ, there is quite a bit of human encroachment in the hunting areas. Those lions are expensive already but if they were worth $500,000 or $1,000,000 each and part of the money found it's way into the local economy, you can bet that there would be a concerted effort to protect their needed real estate.

Wild lions are a scarce and limited resource. Supply and demand will determine their value and availability. Canned hunting has no impact on wild lion supply and perhaps a modest negative impact on wild lion demand. There's no reasonable argument to be made that the availability of canned lions is good for wild lion populations.

MJines likes it when we quote ourselves.

One thing to think about here is the" lets not give the anti's ammo" issue. Guys, these folks want to stop all hunting period from buffalo in Botswana to turkey in Texas. While I know they see the farmed lion as a "get their foot in the legal door" issue lets not think for one damn second that if we reel in this practice that they will slap us on the back and wish us well on our next no fence lion safari ! I think the ANTI issue thing is a dangerous one of course, but I hear so many guys speak of it on this issue that it scares me that so many of us are missing the big picture. If we shut down lion behind a fence , with a huge majority of our own saying it's not hunting and unsporting, then how does that crowd respond when kudu, gemsbok, sable ( that are only seperated from a valuable game animal and a pile of biltong by a fence) come under fire. If our team howls " not sporting" on one species, how does it stand up for hunting another species under the same restrictions ? Really. This a tough, emotional one for sure, and the pro farmed-anti farmed camps both can and do make good points. BUT, hunters are playing with fire when we attack the lion behind the fence issue with such fury, because that same fury will be turned against us by the real enemy-the antis when they press the NO FENCE PERIOD issue ,and boys, it is coming down the tracks fast and it's aimed at all of us.

Dave,

As always, you raise a very good point..... but the big difference between the two is that the plains game species that are hunted in fenced areas have spent most if not all of their lives in that area. They know the terrain, the escape routes and the dangers (or otherwise) intimately. Most are born there, breed there and are usually self sufficient and self sustaining.

The Lions on the other hand are pen bred and spend their entire lives in that same pen until they are drugged and transported to a completely alien environment, where they have no idea of terrain or escape routes, are not self sufficient or sustaining, have probably only spent a few hours in the area, have probably never hunted for themselves and are more likely to walk towards humans or vehicles because they expect to be fed, rather than run away because the see a potential danger.

And as proof that this is a damed difficult issue, this is the first time I have seen Shakari and I at such opposite ends of a hunting issue- usually we are in agreement on all things hunting. This is a very complicated issue on so many fronts, and discussions on it are good. There are some real smart guys on both ends of this issue, as well as some very experienced hunters who just can't agree. And maybe we can all look at the other guys point of view a bit more and learn something we had not yet considered before. Would Dave Fulson want all lions to be roaming free to be hunted like our hero's of yesterday? YOU BET. But I would also like to get on my horse with four wooden stakes and mallet in hand, ride west of Ft. Worth and lay claim to about 20,000 acres of land I have had my eye on as they did in the 1830's. But the land game has changed just a bit. So has the hunting game. It will never be the same , but we must steer it as best we can into our future.

quote:

So has the hunting game. It will never be the same , but we must steer it as best we can into our future.

Agreed! But it will start with what I said in my Smithsonian Lion Article post.

quote:

But I would also like to get on my horse with four wooden stakes and mallet in hand, ride west of Ft. Worth and lay claim to about 20,000 acres of land I have had my eye on as they did in the 1830's.

Be careful where you drive the stake it might cross Easter lines!

Dave Fulson for "Hunting President"!! Although Shakari is well-versed and I too often agree with his opinions and admire his experience, I can't help but think differently.

He says, "Dave you make a good point, but". No man, there is no but in the argument of what antis will or will not find acceptable, period!! Dave is 100% right, if you want to be against canned lion hunting, then so be it. But to stand on that side of the fence, then jump to the other when it comes to plains game, then expect the ANTI & NON hunting crowd to recognize the difference, and further more, accept it, is totally off base! Take a stance, high fence hunting is either ok or not, but you can't have it both ways and expect people outside the hunting circle to take you seriously!

Dave,

Not opposite ends my friend, just not in agreement.... however, there's nothing wrong with a bit of friendly disagreement and debate huh?

Aaron,

The 'but' was a polite way for me to preface the statement of why I felt my friend is wrong so I didn't cause offence.

To me, there's an immense difference between a PG animal that's spent it's life in an area and has all his wits about him and a Lion that's completely new to the area and so full of vitamin K, he doesn't know if his arse is drilled or bored...... but I would never be so rude as to be that blunt to a man I consider a gentleman of the first order.

How's that for a diplomatic answer!

quote:

But to stand on that side of the fence, then jump to the other when it comes to plains game, then expect the ANTI & NON hunting crowd to recognize the difference, and further more, accept it, is totally off base! Take a stance, high fence hunting is either ok or not, but you can't have it both ways and expect people outside the hunting circle to take you seriously!

Aaron,
You are 100% correct here!!!

As my Daddy always says: "When there is a line in the sand...one can only stand up squarely on one side or the other!"

I am going on record of saying: While I don't have any desire to shoot a pen-raised lion...if someone else wants to it is their business...go ahead.

But then again I am an Ian Smith fan...so what do I know!

AARON
How much does HUNTING PRESIDENT pay? Thanks buddy. Come by the Chifuti booth at either Dallas or Reno and say hello. I am looking forward to meeting you in person !
Happy Holidays
Dave

quote:

But I would also like to get on my horse with four wooden stakes and mallet in hand, ride west of Ft. Worth and lay claim to about 20,000 acres of land I have had my eye on as they did in the 1830's.

Dave,
If you followed the "Africa Pattern" you would have to return that land to the Comanche or take a Comanche on as a 51% partner in your business!

Shakari & Others - Obviously I mean no dis-respect to you, as your experience and knowledge, especially within the confines of SA are much greater than most any of us. However, this debate is not about SA alone, its about HUNTING! Call it right, call it wrong, call it shooting poor defenseless lions, but anytime a "Hunter" turns his back on another because one's morality doesn't fit the same mold, its has nothing but catastrophic effects. I too have NO interest in a "high fence" big male lion, and quite often get a chuckle at the "hair monsters" we all see from SA, and then listen as the guy proclaims his hunting prowess. I keep my mouth shut however, because I support ALL efforts and forms of "Hunting", as long as it falls within the LEGAL limits of the law. And as far as I know, high fence lion hunting is still legal?

There's lots of things in the hunting world I see that I totally disagree with, don't like or get upset about. But man, I still support and respect the fact that some guys just do it differently than me. Driving a wedge amongst us over PERSONAL ETHICS, whatever that is, can and will be exactly what the antis are hoping and looking for. Come on guys, stop and see the forest for the trees, give em an inch and I GUARANTEE YOU, they will take a mile. Stand up and support ALL of us that believe and fight for the rights of the hunting heritage, whether you AGREE with each individual's idea of hunting or not! Get off your high horse, and stand united, or DIVIDED WE WILL FALL!!!

quote:

There's lots of things in the hunting world I see that I totally disagree with, don't like or get upset about. But man, I still support and respect the fact that some guys just do it differently than me. Driving a wedge amongst us over PERSONAL ETHICS, whatever that is, can and will be exactly what the antis are hoping and looking for. Come on guys, stop and see the forest for the trees, give em an inch and I GUARANTEE YOU, they will take a mile. Stand up and support ALL of us that believe and fight for the rights of the hunting heritage, whether you AGREE with each individual's idea of hunting or not! Get off your high horse, and stand united, or DIVIDED WE WILL FALL!!!

Well said !!!

Seloushunter

Aaron,

There was absolutely no offence taken my friend.

I agree with a large part of what you say. However, as I see it, there's a massive difference between the shooting of captive bred Lions and the people that do it, compared to true hunting and true hunters.

No doubt hunters need to stand together for the sake of our sport and as part of that, the animals that make our sport possible...... but (there's that word again ) I don't believe the previously mentioned shooters are hunters and therefore we need to prevent them masquerading as such. Because if we don't, when they're bought down by the antis as they surely must eventually be, they'll take us with them.

Frankly, I'm getting to an age where it probably won't affect me personally/directly.

However, I still care passionately about Africa, it's animals and it's hunting and I'll continue to fight for those things until the day I pop my clogs.

One cannot and nor should one try to defend the indefensible. At the end of the day, if something ain't right, it's wrong...... and if it's wrong, it ain't right.

Aaron, I used to have the same “live and let live” opinion that you have about hunter ethics. And I have seen some truth to the “divide and conquer” outcome, especially pertaining to the choice of weapons back here in the States. However, I have come to conclude that our sport (and other aspects of life as well) can only be kept honorable through self policing, and that can only be done via the age old tools called “shame” and “ridicule”. It works (or used too) in most other aspects of our lives and I think hunting is no exception. In fact, I think that the elimination of the shame factor in society has helped produce a moral collapse that’s obvious to anyone older than twenty. You only have to look at the 70% out of wedlock birth rate in our cities for proof. And it doesn’t have anything to do with what is or isn’t illegal. It’s not illegal to sleep with your best friend’s wife, make crude racial jokes, yell at a nun, or chew with your mouth open, but ridicule and shame prevents these things from happening as a rule, or at least they used to.

Anyway, I think if we reject the tendency to say “I wouldn’t hunt using _____ method, but wouldn’t criticize another hunter for doing so” then maybe we can hold on to what’s left of the ethics behind our sport. And yes, I know there are grey areas when it comes to this, but we can also come to a consensus as a group that certain actions will not be accepted. Notice I didn’t say illegal, just not accepted by your hunting peers. And before you say that there is no such thing as a consensus when it comes to hunting, take a look at the Mark Sullivan posts floating around. We can all agree that purposefully wounding an animal is wrong and as far as I know is quite legal.

Now that I’ve ranted about this I guess I’ll have to “walk the walk” and state my opinion on hunting pen raised lions. Yep, it’s wrong! And while I’ll never push to make it illegal, I sure don’t want to glorify any canned lion hunt in any way.