quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I have always subscribed to the theory that bigger is better, assuming you can actually control and shoot the bigger caliber. My thinking has been that if the shot is perfect, regardless of caliber, you will obviously be fine. I do not dispute that shot placement is critical and a perfect shot with a .375 H&H will be just as effective as a perfect shot with a .500 NE and that more people are likely to be able to shoot a .375 H&H better than a .500 NE. On the other hand, if the shot is not perfect (a fairly frequent occurence on elephant in particular) using a bigger caliber gives you more margin of error. By that I mean that a bigger caliber is more likely to make a marginal shot effective than a smaller caliber, so a shot near the brain is going to inflict more trauma and potentially drive bone into the brain or otherwise cause more pronounced secondary effects than a smaller caliber. Where is the flaw in that thinking?

+ 1

This is all so silly, and gets regurgitated constantly.

No one uses a .375 H&H for a living hunting dangerous game. Saeed uses a 375 ultra mag.

No DG PH uses a 375.

How simple minded can this get? A 375 H&H is capable of killing an elephant. But so what?

Having the tracker set up the sticks and a shot is taken at a sedentary animal. It dies in short order. Big surprise.

It is when shit hits the fan that a 375 H&H can be quite inadequate.

The 375 H&H wasn't adequate? Well the PH, the appy, the game scout, etc. unloaded on it. It ran off and you paid the trophy fee. Way to go dude.

Nyschens, et al, used big guns. And didn't pay trophy fees when the big gun wasn't big enough.

But the internet knows better.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

The 375 H&H wasn't adequate? Well the PH, the appy, the game scout, etc. unloaded on it. It ran off and you paid the trophy fee. Way to go dude.

I kinda agree with you, but usually on all the shows on tv we can see a big double and the client misses the brain and the ph, the appy, the game scout shoots it...I love big bores but for the "normal" client that goes to Africa with little or no interest on learning to handle a big bore rifle its a bad choice IMO.

AD

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

The 375 H&H wasn't adequate? Well the PH, the appy, the game scout, etc. unloaded on it. It ran off and you paid the trophy fee. Way to go dude.

I kinda agree with you, but usually on all the shows on tv we can see a big double and the client misses the brain and the ph, the appy, the game scout shoots it...I love big bores but for the "normal" client that goes to Africa with little or no interest on learning to handle a big bore rifle its a bad choice IMO.

AD

. . . and truth be told, if the hunter was using a .375 H&H and it is a frontal brain shot most are going to miss the brain too.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Bell proved the 7mm would kill Elephant 1,000 times.

Indeed, and he also had the heavy artillery within easy reach when he botched a shot (which he did from time to time - I guess nobody's perfect - not even Bell)

My point exactly. fojotupu, I agree with your statement 100% that he had the heavy artillery within easy reach when he botched a shot. In a way, similar to the way we have the heavy artillery handy in the hands of an expert (a PH) for when we botch a shot. But some here are stating that the heavy artillery has no use as the smaller caliber has just as much effect as the big guns under all circumstances. If that is true, why did Bell carry a heavy gun, just in case, and why do PHs today carry heavy guns, just in case. That's my point. If the smaller caliber weapon is just as good in all circumstances on large Dangerous Game, why not use the 7mm for back up instead of the 470 or 500 Jeffrey? The only guy I see actually doing this is Phil Shoemaker up in Alaska occasionally pulling a big Brownie out of the nasty with his 30/06! Brass ones Phill; but still, a bear is not a buff or Ele.

There is really only 1 of 2 answers here that are plausible. Either: 1) the 7mm is just as effective as the 375 as is the 500 under any and all circumstances and therefore there is absolutely NO need for any weapon of larger caliber than the 7mm when hunting large DG because one has the exact same effect as the other on an angry, adrenaline charged Elephant, Buffalo, or Hippo, etc. that has been surprised at close range in really thick jesse, or 2) there IS a difference in effect on large Dangerous Game animals between a 7mm and a 375 that makes the 375 a better weapon for this purpose under certain circumstances and if this difference in effect of the larger caliber weapon does in fact exist, then it follows to reason that there is also a difference in effect of using a larger caliber than 375 under certain circumstances. So, which is it? 1 or 2? I vote for using the largest caliber gun that I can shoot effectively, accurately, and without thinking about the consequences of recoil and muzzle blast when I pull the trigger.

One last thing and then I am going to try my best to bow out of this thread. Yeah, right eh? I hope everything I've said here has been taken in the nature for what it is and that is just another unsolvable campfire discussion about guns and calibers that fellow hunters and rifle nuts so enjoy! I am adamant about my opinions as are most people but I certainly don't intend to offend anyone, just enjoying the lively discussion. I also find many times that my opinions are wrong and need adjustment!

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Rabe:
I have been hunting dangerous game now for 20 years. I guide +- 20 Buffalo, 8 Elephant, 5 Leopard, 3-5 Lion and many Hippo every year and when ever a client arrives with a .375H&H I smile a happy smile.
When they unpack anything in .40 caliber I smile, When they offload anything bigger, I immediately give my chief tracker a .375H&H to carry with him.

Again for all those who believe the 375 is the end all, be all weapon, with no need for anything larger under any circumstance, can you please show me a linear, straight line logical argument from point A to B to C where: A) = any weapon smaller than a 375 is inadequate on DG, B) = a 375 is adequate on all DG under any and all circumstances, and C) = anything larger than a 375 is NEVER needed on DG under any circumstances. Bell proved the 7mm would kill Elephant 1,000 times. With this track record, why is no one espousing the idea that the 7mm is all that is needed to hunt DG? Is there something about the 375 that has caused most of the African countries to adopt it as the minimum legal caliber allowed for DG when we know a 7mm will get the job done? If so, there must be something to the argument that a larger caliber weapon has advantages over a smaller caliber weapon under certain circumstances.

I don't think anyone is arguing that anything smaller than .375 is inadequate for DG and that there is no purpose at all for anything bigger.

Also, in stating the .375 is "minimum," I don't think that equates to "marginal." Perhaps the game departments mean it's that minimum caliber which they can be sure will dispatch the game with few problems. By calling it a minimum, they are not saying a.458 is better.

Anyone knows that a .458 bullet in the same place will probably beat a .375. but the nub is that humans can shoot a .375 better and have a better chance of putting it in the right place. There was a post about the "upper level of your recoil sensitivity." It's not that simple. ANYONE can shoot better if recoil goes down. I used to win medals at the National Matches when the only legal caliber was the 30-06 with 173 grain bullets. Now 15-year old girls are winning with .223s. It's the recoil. David Tubb, perhaps the best center-fire off hand rifle shot in history, found that in silhouette shooting he could score one more target with a 7mm-08 than with a .308. One more kill out of 40 shots. Again it's the recoil.

You just can't hit as well with a heavy rifle. Why don't people shoot plains game with .458s? It's simple to drive a pointed 350 grain TSX bullet at 2700 fps and hit game at 200 yards, isn't it? No it isn't. It's harder than a smaller cartridge having the same trajectory.

Why did my PH, for my 2008 safari when all I wanted to take was elephant and buffalo, tell me to bring a "light" rifle because we could shoot a croc? Why not shoot a croc with my heavy rifle?

Because people simply can't shoot heavy rifles as well. That includes you and me.

There is some optimum point where increasing killing power is offset by decreasing real-world accuracy. I think that point is just about where the .375 is for most people.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Shot placement is paramount - it trumps all else. I recently killed an elephant with one shot between the eyes with a .375 AI, using 300 Failsafe bullets. The elephant was dead before it hit the ground. I killed a Cape buffalo bull with one shot throught the heart with the same load - he died wihin 15 seconds and within 5 yds of where I hit him. Both, perfect shot placement and quick clean kills.

BUT, the one "bigger-is-better" argument that may have validity relates to the brush-bucking qualities of the bullets; and, there are PHs out there who believe that heavier bullets - 400 to 500 gr range - are more effective in getting through the brush without deflection and allowing accurate shot placement to occur.

All bullets can deflect, no matter how big, but the greater momentum of the larger bullets seems to limit deflection. I believe this makes sense. Thus, if you have to root-out a buffalo or elephant shooting through brush, you're likely better off with the bigger bore calibers and larger heavy-for-caliber bullets.

Regards, AIU

Everyone appears to agree that shot placement is most important. BUT, I think you guys are not emphasizing the brush bucking qualities of the heavier bullets. This is the only quality of "bigger is better" that's really over and above what the .375 H&H offers. A clear shot with the .375 H&H through the heart or CNS is all that is needed for a clean kill, unless you've got to shoot through all those twigs and bushes. Then I want a 400 gr. projectile or bigger with greater momentum to plow through that brush and not deflect significantly from the proper point of impact.

May be we are missing the main point here.

I know, there are shooters who can actually shoot their large caliber rifles very well.

But, sadly, this is not very common among the general hunters.

The point is one has to HIT a vital area on an animal to be able to kill it or disable it.

And many hunters taking large caliber rifles to Africa are incapable of doing this.

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
I know that Saeed has taken numerous elephant and hundreds of buffalo with no problem using a .375 caliber rifle. I've heard over and over from others that it is necessary to use something above .400 caliber for dangerous game. There seems to be a disconnect here. Why do some proclaim above .400 is the way to go when others like Saeed with a great deal of hunting experience say a .375 is the way to go? Why would someone like Harry Selby say the .375 H&H magnum is enough gun for elephant when others disagree and advise above .400 is what is needed? What is it about people with a lot of hunting experience that would provoke them to state that a sub .400 caliber cartridge would be acceptable for the hunting of dangerous game such as elephant or buffalo? Are people unwittingly commenting on their shooting capabilities as Phil Shoemaker puts it? I think I'm beginning to understand.

Thanks,

jfm

Some on AR have said that one should not take too much notice of the advice given by Mr.Selby,
...their reason being he was such a good PH, that he shot very little,.. he had much less occasion[thus less experience] dealing with DGH situations that went wrong, which he as the PH would have to "fix" up.

Mind you, Harry shot the barrel out on his .416 Rigby...

I would certainly seriously take heed of the advice given by an African PH who survived 53 full-seasons of PH duties.

quote:

Originally posted by safari-lawyer:
I think the "bigger is better" mentality comes into play as well as hunters believing that the larger caliber allows for more margain of error.

Yet none of them with such mindset seem to be unable to specify what margin for error each larger bore provides.

quote:

Originally posted by Indy:


I don't think anyone is arguing that anything smaller than .375 is inadequate for DG and that there is no purpose at all for anything bigger.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh hell. I knew I couldn't stay out of it. OK Indy, some on this thread ARE stating that there is no purpose at all for anything larger than a 375! So I am taking it one step further. I'm asking why the 375 is necessary at all if the 7X57 has proven it's effectiveness on killing the world's largest land animal. After all, if your reasoning for the superiority of the 375 is based on the ease of shooting it compared to something like a 458 Lott, then the 7X57 should be even more effective than the 375, right?

We know that all three rifles, 7X57, 375, and 458 will all kill an elephant. So by your reasoning, and many others as well, if the 375 is a better choice than the 458 because of the ease of shooting the smaller rifle, then we must also state that the 7X57 is better than both the 375 and the 458 because it is easier to shoot than both of them! Right?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, in stating the .375 is "minimum," I don't think that equates to "marginal." Perhaps the game departments mean it's that minimum caliber which they can be sure will dispatch the game with few problems.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now you are actually getting close to making my point for me here. You say that "Perhaps the game departments mean it's that minimum caliber which they can be sure will dispatch the game with few problems. Based on what I ask? Forgetting for a moment about the recoil issue, what is there about the 375 that provides an increased "margin of error" over the 7X57 or any smaller caliber that would cause the game departments to make this determination that a 375 can dispatch the game with few problems but a smaller caliber would create problems. Actually, according to your logic, if the weapon's effectiveness is a function of ease of shooting, the game departments should be choosing a smaller caliber yet than the 375 because even more people can shoot it effectively.

It seems to me that the game departments have identified "SOMETHING" about the larger caliber of 375 than the 7mm that would provide for dispatching the game with few problems. And if this "SOMETHING" actually exists, then would it not be logical for the 458 to possess this "SOMETHING" over and above the 375?

I'm going to give you the last word here Indy as this is starting to make my head hurt!

Sorry I haven't figured out how to do multiple quotes in the same post as the middle statement is mine as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
May be we are missing the main point here.

I know, there are shooters who can actually shoot their large caliber rifles very well.

But, sadly, this is not very common among the general hunters.

The point is one has to HIT a vital area on an animal to be able to kill it or disable it.

And many hunters taking large caliber rifles to Africa are incapable of doing this.

Saeed, I actually agree with you on this. I only disagree with the emphasis statement. Your emphasis is that "many hunters taking large caliber rifles to Africa are incapable of shooting them". My emphasis is that "there are shooters who can actually shoot their large caliber rifles very well".

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
May be we are missing the main point here.

I know, there are shooters who can actually shoot their large caliber rifles very well.

But, sadly, this is not very common among the general hunters.

The point is one has to HIT a vital area on an animal to be able to kill it or disable it.

And many hunters taking large caliber rifles to Africa are incapable of doing this.

Well stated Saeed - but the injury inflicted by a larger caliber will also be greater than that produced by a smaller one, hence the reason for using a rifle with something "extra" when the vital area is not hit.
As already said before by countless posters, shot placement seals the deal with most any suitable caliber - its when the brown stuff hits the fan that the heavier caliber stands out among others (IMO)

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Rabe:
I have been hunting dangerous game now for 20 years. I guide +- 20 Buffalo, 8 Elephant, 5 Leopard, 3-5 Lion and many Hippo every year and when ever a client arrives with a .375H&H I smile a happy smile.
When they unpack anything in .40 caliber I smile, When they offload anything bigger, I immediately give my chief tracker a .375H&H to carry with him.

You are painting with a pretty broad brush there. I'm sure that you have smiled the happy smile as well a few times after the obligatory range session prior to the Safari when you realized that your client can actually shoot a 500NE! You will find quite a few guys on this forum that are not recoil limited to the 375.

Check out some of the posts and hunt reports by guys like CCMDoc, MJines, Robgunbuilder, Michael458. I think you would be "happy" to guide them on a Safari with their "Big Bores". Also, check out the Terminal Bullet Thread. You'll find some pretty impressive penetration with ultra big bores like the 577NE shooting the CEB BBW#13 compared to the old round nose bullets.

Just saying, that's a pretty broad brush!

Again for all those who believe the 375 is the end all, be all weapon, with no need for anything larger under any circumstance, can you please show me a linear, straight line logical argument from point A to B to C where: A) = any weapon smaller than a 375 is inadequate on DG, B) = a 375 is adequate on all DG under any and all circumstances, and C) = anything larger than a 375 is NEVER needed on DG under any circumstances. Bell proved the 7mm would kill Elephant 1,000 times. With this track record, why is no one espousing the idea that the 7mm is all that is needed to hunt DG? Is there something about the 375 that has caused most of the African countries to adopt it as the minimum legal caliber allowed for DG when we know a 7mm will get the job done? If so, there must be something to the argument that a larger caliber weapon has advantages over a smaller caliber weapon under certain circumstances.

i suppose a 7mm might be adequate but i would prefer not to end up in an African jail for using an illegal weapon. too many absolute qualifiers here( never, all, always, etc,) i should think that there is a reason that PH's with a vast an mount of experience favor the .375 for the average client showing up for a DG hunt. NOTICE THE PHRASE "AVERAGE CLIENT".

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Rabe:
I have been hunting dangerous game now for 20 years. I guide +- 20 Buffalo, 8 Elephant, 5 Leopard, 3-5 Lion and many Hippo every year and when ever a client arrives with a .375H&H I smile a happy smile.
When they unpack anything in .40 caliber I smile, When they offload anything bigger, I immediately give my chief tracker a .375H&H to carry with him.

You are painting with a pretty broad brush there. I'm sure that you have smiled the happy smile as well a few times after the obligatory range session prior to the Safari when you realized that your client can actually shoot a 500NE! You will find quite a few guys on this forum that are not recoil limited to the 375.

Check out some of the posts and hunt reports by guys like CCMDoc, MJines, Robgunbuilder, Michael458. I think you would be "happy" to guide them on a Safari with their "Big Bores". Also, check out the Terminal Bullet Thread. You'll find some pretty impressive penetration with ultra big bores like the 577NE shooting the CEB BBW#13 compared to the old round nose bullets.

Just saying, that's a pretty broad brush!

Again for all those who believe the 375 is the end all, be all weapon, with no need for anything larger under any circumstance, can you please show me a linear, straight line logical argument from point A to B to C where: A) = any weapon smaller than a 375 is inadequate on DG, B) = a 375 is adequate on all DG under any and all circumstances, and C) = anything larger than a 375 is NEVER needed on DG under any circumstances. Bell proved the 7mm would kill Elephant 1,000 times. With this track record, why is no one espousing the idea that the 7mm is all that is needed to hunt DG? Is there something about the 375 that has caused most of the African countries to adopt it as the minimum legal caliber allowed for DG when we know a 7mm will get the job done? If so, there must be something to the argument that a larger caliber weapon has advantages over a smaller caliber weapon under certain circumstances.

i suppose a 7mm might be adequate but i would prefer not to end up in an African jail for using an illegal weapon. too many absolute qualifiers here( never, all, always, etc,) i should think that there is a reason that PH's with a vast an mount of experience favor the .375 for the average client showing up for a DG hunt. NOTICE THE PHRASE "AVERAGE CLIENT".

Completely agree with you about the 7mm and it's legality. That was part of my point. Why have the game departments chosen a caliber of certain size if there is no benefit to the size of weapon being used under any circumstance? The 7mm example was used only because there is a precedent with it and Bell. Beyond that, it was hypothetical. As far as the qualifiers, (never, all, always, etc.) again, that is part of the point as some have stated there is no benefit to the larger caliber weapon under any circumstance!

.395 H&H, yes I said three-NINE-five.
More than enough whomp.
More than a .375 H&H.

And it allows me to stay under .40 caliber, like any thinking man who is not troubled by penis bore envy.

I just got bored with the same old .375 H&H I took to Botswana in 2001.
It was a one-shot killer on everything with 300-grainers at a verified 2532 fps.
It would put 3 shots into 0.75" at 100 yards,
even though it weighed only 6.75 pounds bare-naked empty, and only 8.5 pounds with Leupold 2.5x-8X scope and 5 rounds of ammo.



Just too simple and easy and infallible.
Ho hum.

So I rebarreled it to .395 H&H.
Still under 7 pounds if bare-naked-empty, and still just 8.5 pounds with scope and 5 rounds of ammo.

quote:

Why have the game departments chosen a caliber of certain size if there is no benefit to the size of weapon being used under any circumstance?

Todd:

It might be well worth noting that by and large these minimum caliber requirements were imposed by the colonial authorities ruling the roost in the heydays and inherited by they that followed - main reason: to reduce and possibly avoid the loss of DG from wounds inflicted by light calibers. The .375 was deemed the best all round caliber in competent hands on which to set the "base marker".

(Quote)I suppose a 7mm might be adequate but i would prefer not to end up in an African jail for using an illegal weapon (Quote)

Quite frankly I don't think the Game Scout would give two hoots nor would he know what caliber you are using - how many of you out there have had your weapons checked by the GS in camp or told you in the field that you may not use the .338 which you happen to have as well, for shooting a Buffalo, Lion or a Leopard as prime examples?

If it leaks out and you live in the States you may well have to contend with the Lacey Act.

Gee, the same old stuff, over and over again.

Bell: Cheap, military surplus 7x57 ammunition.

Therefore it is the gold, or cheap, standard.

The fundamental problem would be that there is a whole league of folks that believe this crap.

Ethanol, electric cars, wind power, solar collectors, obamie, .....

You can fool most of the people ....

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Rabe:
I have been hunting dangerous game now for 20 years. I guide +- 20 Buffalo, 8 Elephant, 5 Leopard, 3-5 Lion and many Hippo every year and when ever a client arrives with a .375H&H I smile a happy smile.
When they unpack anything in .40 caliber I smile, When they offload anything bigger, I immediately give my chief tracker a .375H&H to carry with him.

You are painting with a pretty broad brush there. I'm sure that you have smiled the happy smile as well a few times after the obligatory range session prior to the Safari when you realized that your client can actually shoot a 500NE! You will find quite a few guys on this forum that are not recoil limited to the 375.

Check out some of the posts and hunt reports by guys like CCMDoc, MJines, Robgunbuilder, Michael458. I think you would be "happy" to guide them on a Safari with their "Big Bores". Also, check out the Terminal Bullet Thread. You'll find some pretty impressive penetration with ultra big bores like the 577NE shooting the CEB BBW#13 compared to the old round nose bullets.

Just saying, that's a pretty broad brush!

Again for all those who believe the 375 is the end all, be all weapon, with no need for anything larger under any circumstance, can you please show me a linear, straight line logical argument from point A to B to C where: A) = any weapon smaller than a 375 is inadequate on DG, B) = a 375 is adequate on all DG under any and all circumstances, and C) = anything larger than a 375 is NEVER needed on DG under any circumstances. Bell proved the 7mm would kill Elephant 1,000 times. With this track record, why is no one espousing the idea that the 7mm is all that is needed to hunt DG? Is there something about the 375 that has caused most of the African countries to adopt it as the minimum legal caliber allowed for DG when we know a 7mm will get the job done? If so, there must be something to the argument that a larger caliber weapon has advantages over a smaller caliber weapon under certain circumstances.

i suppose a 7mm might be adequate but i would prefer not to end up in an African jail for using an illegal weapon. too many absolute qualifiers here( never, all, always, etc,) i should think that there is a reason that PH's with a vast an mount of experience favor the .375 for the average client showing up for a DG hunt. NOTICE THE PHRASE "AVERAGE CLIENT".

Completely agree with you about the 7mm and it's legality. That was part of my point. Why have the game departments chosen a caliber of certain size if there is no benefit to the size of weapon being used under any circumstance? The 7mm example was used only because there is a precedent with it and Bell. Beyond that, it was hypothetical. As far as the qualifiers, (never, all, always, etc.) again, that is part of the point as some have stated there is no benefit to the larger caliber weapon under any circumstance!

I guess they were thinking about chest shots and not brain shots when they decided what caliber should be the minimum.
I don't think Bell shot the elephants in the chest area with his 7 mm
Bigger is better whit chest shots, but it seems to me that most prefer to brain shoot an elephant and since it is a rather small target, you need to shoot well to hit it.
Most people shoot better with a less recoiling gun. And that is a fact you can't deny even if a few hunters are really good shots with even the biggest cannons.

The main reason for why Bell used 7x57, was that the big bore bullets at that time where to soft to always penetrate the skull to damage the brain and kill the elephants.
Military fmj bullets always did.

Same discussion with regards to moose hunting here in Norway except moose are of course not dangerous games (most of the time anyway). We hae hunters shooting moose with 6,5x55 and there has been some statistical reports (not very scientific) showing small difference in how far they run after broadside hit. Think they tested from 6,5x55 (legal minimum here) up to 338 Win and 9,3x62 (almost noone shoots larger). Very small differences. They also conclude that most shoot better with lighter calibers.

So most shooters don't practice enough to be accurate with big bores. Target shooting is very different (hitting very small targets), and there recoil limits everybody, no matter how much they practice.

This does not mean that going large is bad for everyone and that caliber (energy) does not matter in any situation. Personally I will shoot my double (500/416) a couple hundred rounds a year and believe moose will bleed out quicker (this is what they die from). If I wound them, the blood trail will be more clear and tracking easier. If I am unlucky and hit twigs etc I may also see a difference. So I believe in going as big as one can accurately shoot as a way of contributing to humane hunting (quicker kills from body shots).

With regard to stopping a charging animal, I have zero experience. But it seems any round that can reach the brain or spine will suffice. I was under the impression that high SD heavy solids at high velocity is good for punching through deep enough to be reliable.

Should be pretty simple to test this on elephant carcasses?

This is all so silly, and gets regurgitated constantly.
Then why bother replying to the post

No one uses a .375 H&H for a living hunting dangerous game.
This blanket statement is untrue.

Saeed uses a 375 ultra mag.
Which is not as good as a slower round at short range where DG is most often shot.

No DG PH uses a 375.
I know of two that do so today and there were a few who did so in the past. I know another gentleman who uses a 9.3 x 62 Mauser these days.

How simple minded can this get? A 375 H&H is capable of killing an elephant. But so what?
The same can be said for any caliber.

It is when shit hits the fan that a 375 H&H can be quite inadequate.
People with a lot more experience than even you say the central nervous system must be hit in order to stop a SHTF situation. Does caliber matter there? Or does shot placement?

I knew the insults and belligerence would enter the fray at some point.

What is interesting about these threads is that more often than not the posts are more of a rationalization by each person based on their own practices than anything else. I guess that is not surprising, those that shoot .375's argue they are the way to go, those that shoot bigger calibers argue that is the way to go. Truth is that virtually any legal caliber will be perfectly adequate for the normal situation. The debate really centers on what makes the most sense in the situation that has not played out normally. I think that for the same reason most PHs elect to carry a heavier caliber than a .375 H&H, many others have made the same decision. In the mean time we will continue to debate this for as long as they chamber rifles in different calibers and it all boils down to whatever floats your boat is what you should go with . . . assuming that a PH is there with a bigger caliber to back you up.

In general people rationalize their way of doing things as the proper way.

Use what you want sometimes, it can make for interesting reading or experiences. Last year a hunter shot a buffalo with a 45-70 pistol. Using a soft it went through about three feet of buffalo and exited, never expanded. On their third day of tracking, our party accidently bumped in to it and was lucky nobody was hurt. After meeting up with the other group we found the buff and helped dispatch it. The hunter is a good guy and very good pistol shot and took another buff with no fanfare. However I believe that buff shot with a 470 or 500 with exact same shot placement would have not gone far.

To me it is using the right tool for the right job on the big stuff. I have handed my 470 double back and took my scoped 375 to shoot a buffalo because it was thick and I wanted to make certain I could see any branches or brush between us even though it was a close shot. The double was in my hands for the follow up.

I have successfully hunted PG with a 416 Rem with 400 grain bullets and would not hesitate to take a 200 yard shot on plainsgame with my scoped 458 Lott and a 500 grain bullet if needed. They are way more accurate than a lot of people give them credit.

This argument has been going on since the 1800s and will never be settled on here. Use what you want as long as it is legal and have some fun.

quote:

assuming that a PH is there with a bigger caliber to back you up. Wink

I'd like to use a 5 lb 7x57 too. If I had I would have completely forgotten about the wounding shots, the ones that got away, and the ones someone else had to put down.

The mistake of these posts is that there may be guys that believe the 375 H&H drivel. If you can't handle more recoil than the 375 H&H dishes out, so be it.

Just don't try to pretend it is something it is not.

Actually, the accuracy of the rifles is not in question.

Every single rifle that we have built for the larger calibers, like 404, 416 458 and 460 Weatherby have shot extremely well, and I would not hesitate in using any of them myself.

The trouble is the shooters.

Many of those who take one of the larger calibers to Africa cannot shoot it well enough to hit the target box, let alone an animal at 200 yards.

A number of times I have seen some really funny individuals on safari.

There are the ones who cannot even sight in there 416 Remington.

There teh ones who take a custom built 416 Rigby, with weights that make it so heavy the tracker has to carry it, and they still cannot hit a hippo in the head from 20 yards.

Those are the ones who might well have been served better by a smaller caliber.

I have this argument with Walter every year just before we go on our safari.

He says I have several hundred rifles, including all the big bore calibers to the 700 NE.

Why don't take a different rifle on safari every year?

I tell him I prefer to have everything as simple as possible.

Those 2 375/404 rifles have been working so well, whether I am shooting an elephant at 15 yards or a waterbuck at 500 yards.

The only thing I have to worry about is making sure I hit what I am aiming it.

The PHs I hunt with also enjoy it more if they do not have to fire a shot themselves.

Saeed,

Before my first trip to Africa I had a 416 rem for over 10 years that was only shot 4 times because it kicked too much. I knew I had to learn to shoot it for my trip so I thought if I ran 40 rounds through it I would be fine. After finding AR and learning a lot from reading posts, I shot around 300 rounds before the trip and actually had more confidence in it than my PG rifle. After correcting the LOP and shooting the rifle the recoil went away.

After four trips my PHs still have not fired a shot at one of my animals and you are right they enjoy the hunt much more that way.

Last year I sent my double to the repair center to be cleaned and checked out. The service manager could not believe I had almost 700 rounds through it. I have been told be PH's guys show up with big guns especially doubles having never shot them but a few times because of the recoil. They can see it at the site in when the hunter struggles to put the double together or when he reaches for the bolt to chamber the next round. That is what gives the big bores a bad wrap.

Personally I will carry my 375 H&H and 470 double on most trips, although I have a serious urge to shoot a big elephant with my 450-400 Boswell. At 106 years old it deserves a trip to Africa.

Two questions:

I fail to see how recoil affects the first shot taken. Exactly how does recoil affect the accuracy of bullet during the first trigger squeeze?

If you need the second because you were innaccurate with the first shot, is this not the very circumstance nearly everyone here agrees bigger is better when facing dangerous game?

There are a great many people who shoot these big bores quite well as evident in competitions such as the Hoot n Shoots, at Vintagers and many others we of our small AR world are unaware. That .375 limit is certainly someone's but not these folk and I'd say, not most folk's either.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
May be we are missing the main point here.

I know, there are shooters who can actually shoot their large caliber rifles very well.

But, sadly, this is not very common among the general hunters.

The point is one has to HIT a vital area on an animal to be able to kill it or disable it.

And many hunters taking large caliber rifles to Africa are incapable of doing this.

Saeed,

The general hunter you describe is typically an American or European hunter that primarily hunts deer sized animals with rifles that range from the 243, 30-30, 7X57 up to the 30-06 or 7mm Mag. To them the 375 H&H is a cannon and most are afraid to shoot it. Go to any range in thew US and the majority of shooters there will refuse to shoot such a cannon as the 375 H&H if you offer one to them. That the 375 is easier to learn to shoot than the 458 Win is absolutely true but most of these hunters can't shoot a 375 or a 458.

465H&H

I believe in high energy and hydrostatic shock.A 550 gr bullet going at 2200fps or a 500gr bullet at 2300fps is serious business in my book.When I shot my first buff the 500gr swift a frame missed the vitals but the shock made by the bullet ``broke his shoulder`` according to my PH Alan Shearing,and immobilized him.If it was only for the damage caused by the piercing bullet I would have lost him.The effects of hydrostatic shock are not new to me.I have shot caribou in the head with a small bullet and seen the entire skull destroyed.I have also seen the effect on caribou from going from a 270 to 7mmRemmag to 300wm to know that there is a world of a difference a little extra powder makes.

IMO,an ele bullet that would penetrate furthest might not be the most desired as it will leave the least hydrostatic shock around the brain.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
May be we are missing the main point here.

I know, there are shooters who can actually shoot their large caliber rifles very well.

But, sadly, this is not very common among the general hunters.

The point is one has to HIT a vital area on an animal to be able to kill it or disable it.

And many hunters taking large caliber rifles to Africa are incapable of doing this.

Saeed,

The general hunter you describe is typically an American or European hunter that primarily hunts deer sized animals with rifles that range from the 243, 30-30, 7X57 up to the 30-06 or 7mm Mag. To them the 375 H&H is a cannon and most are afraid to shoot it. Go to any range in thew US and the majority of shooters there will refuse to shoot such a cannon as the 375 H&H if you offer one to them. That the 375 is easier to learn to shoot than the 458 Win is absolutely true but most of these hunters can't shoot a 375 or a 458.

465H&H

Both quotes above are absolutely true! Haveing said that, however, I think this mainly applies nto a first time safari hunter,who has never hunted anything more dangerous than an American elk, and had never had a need for a rifle chambered for a cartridge larger than a 338 Win Mag. To this guy a 375H&H is a big bore, that he thinks is the elephant rifle he needs for Africa. His concept of the 375H&H being an elephant rifle causes him to fear the recoil simply because he has been shooting a scoped bolt rifle holding 4 rounds that weighs only 7 pounds fully loaded and chambered for 338 Win Mag that has poped him in the eyebrow with ascope that has too short eye relief.

On the other end of this most folks posting on this tread are not new to Africa, nor to larger chambered rifles. Anyone who has shot a 375H&H a lot wilol have zero problem getting used to the recoil of a 470NE double rifle that weighs in at 11.5 pounds loaded. To this guy, a short period of practice before he leaves for a Bufflao, or elephant hunt will do fine with the larger rifle.

Certainly nobody starts out shooting a 470NE double and all will have a period of learning as life goes on. The kid starting with a .22 rifle will consider a center fire 243Win rifle to be a big rifle, and whewn he gets accustomed to the 243 he will consider a 7mm Mag to be a connon, and so on up the ladder. I guess what I'm trying to say is most here will do fine with what ever he chooses to hunt buffalo, and elephant with. To most the first dangerous game taken in Africa will likely be a Cape buffalo, and that buff will likely be taken with a 375H&H. Many here say the reason the guy changes from the 375H&H to something larger on his second or third safari is because he found the 375H&H lacking! I don'tbelieve that is the case at all, but he simply has graduated to the next level in his battery, but I would bet my next retirement chack that he will still have that 375H&H in his safe, and will likely take it to Africa to back-up his bigger rifle.

..................................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Two questions:

I fail to see how recoil affects the first shot taken. Exactly how does recoil affect the accuracy of bullet during the first trigger squeeze?

If you need the second because you were innaccurate with the first shot, is this not the very circumstance nearly everyone here agrees bigger is better when facing dangerous game?

There are a great many people who shoot these big bores quite well as evident in competitions such as the Hoot n Shoots, at Vintagers and many others we of our small AR world are unaware. That .375 limit is certainly someone's but not these folk and I'd say, not most folk's either.

When hunters practice with their guns and feel it kicks to much, it becomes a subconscious problem they bring with them till next time they will shoot the gun.
Often resulting in a bad first shot.
And if you make a crap first shot, chances are that your next shot/s will not be better, rather worse.
The same thing happens if a person thinks a gun he/she have not shot before will kick a lot.
I have even seen people get it so bad that they flinch when they pull the trigger on a chamber they know is empty...

Here in Norway everybody that wants to hunt big game need to pass a shooting test with the gun they want to hunt with every year.
I have often been in charge of shooting ranges, also when people take the shooting test.

Often you can see people flinch even when they shoot a 223 because they just have shot a larger cartridge that kicks more than they are comfortable with.
I have also witnessed rather many that have bought a big bore to use on Moose here in Norway or/and for a DG hunt in Africa or on Bear in Canada.
Most of them would do much better if they bought a 375 instead of the 416rigby, 458win or 460 weatherby they have bought. But maybe even a 375 was to big of a gun for them too...
I felt sorry for their PH when some of them went to Africa for some DG hunting....

I know very well that many hunters can shoot really big bores very well. But they are a minority of the hunters that own a big bore.

RIP,

I have always appreciated a riflw for its utility, strength and functionality and that is what I consider a beautiful rifle. Is that a kevlar stock? If so, what make?

Thanks,

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
RIP,

I have always appreciated a riflw for its utility, strength and functionality and that is what I consider a beautiful rifle. Is that a kevlar stock? If so, what make?

Thanks,

jfm

jfm,
Right! Beautiful is as beautiful does!
That is a Kevlar, graphite, and fiberglass composite stock from Brown Precision.
It is called the "Brown Pounder."
It weighs one pound including the 1" thick Pachmayr Decelerator pad ... before the paint goes on.

That is the original paint from 1993, applied by Kelly Olson in Eagle River, AK. I guess it is a black epoxy with sand or some other grit in it.
Feels good, and it has been all over Prince William Sound, bear hunting, and too Botswana's Tuli Block and Okavango Delta, with no visible wear.

The stock is light enough to balance perfectly with a No. 3 sporter .375 barrel of 24" length (0.625" muzzle),
or a custom turned .395 barrel that is 23" long and 0.645" at the muzzle,
installed on a Pre-64 M70 winchester.
The Leupold QRW bases are applied with 8x40 Torx screws, and JB Weld!
She is solid.

Back to the perfect cartridge:

I have to agree it is the .375/404 Jeffery, if you have a long enough action.
Really it is only .375 H&H length that is required, unless you are wanting to use really long-nosed bullets like the Walterhog,
then the Rigby-length action is needed.

Saeed's .375/404 Jeffery case length is only 2.800" long.
The one specimen fired case I have measures 2.793" long. Trim-to-length must be 2.790".


The 404 Jeffery case is the biggest case that can be put in a bolt action with a Mauser-Cosine-Perfect box width.

None others need apply.
Otherwise tricks of the trade have to be used to accommodate the bigger cases.
Even the .416 Rigby is too big in the head to be perfect in the commonly available bolt actions,
unless tapered/trapezoidal boxes or windowed boxes, etc. are used.
Even drop boxes and pocket plates do nothing to fix a too-skinny box.

So the 404 Jeffery is the biggest case size to be used.
And it is a perfect case with no rebated rim, etc.

Then the perfect caliber bullet: .375, of course.
Adequate in all regards, legally and functionally, and readily available OTC.

Allows best hopes for accuracy for most humans, and best compromise for long range effectiveness and up close stopping,
if only the shooter can shoot.

Thus it is the greatest power at lowest pressure in the most functionally perfect cartridge for mechanics of feeding in the rifle.
Internal, external, and terminal ballistics.
More than a .375 H&H.
It's got it all.

If only Saeed would make available a source where we could order a reamer and a set of reloading dies for his cartridge.
Sigh ... It is still top secret in actual specs.

Saeed is peculiar that way.
He wants no one else to have a rifle chambered for the same cartridge as his.

Right! Beautiful is as beautiful does!
That is a Kevlar, graphite, and fiberglass composite stock from Brown Precision.
It is called the "Brown Pounder."
It weighs one pound including the 1" thick Pachmayr Decelerator pad ... before the paint goes on.

That is the original paint from 1993, applied by kelly Olson in Eagle River, AK. I guess it is a black epoxy with sand or some other grit in it.
Feels good, and it has been all over Prince William Sound, bear hunting, and too Botswana's Tuli Block and Okavango Delta, with no visible wear.

The stock is light enough to balance perfectly with a No. 3 sporter .375 barrel of 24" length (0.625" muzzle),
or a custom turned .395 barrel that is 23" long and 0.645" at the muzzle,
installed on a Pre-64 M70 winchester.
The Leupold QRW bases are applied with 8x40 Torx screws, and JB Weld!
She is solid.
**********************************************
Yep, that is sweet!
As far as the perfect cartridge, I guess I'm more of a traditionalist and would prefer the original .375 caliber cartridge. I do, however, appreciate the science involved in the development of any wildcat cartridge. Your .395 seems to be a dandy. Probably all one would need for any application. Thanks for the very interesting post.

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
IMO,an ele bullet that would penetrate furthest might not be the most desired as it will leave the least hydrostatic shock around the brain.

If anything it would be "hydrodynamic" shock rather than "hydrostatic"...if in fact such a thing/effect exists at all.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
IMO,an ele bullet that would penetrate furthest might not be the most desired as it will leave the least hydrostatic shock around the brain.

If anything it would be "hydrodynamic" shock rather than "hydrostatic"...if in fact such a thing/effect exists at all.

The word "HYDROSTATIC"is the proper word and simply indicates that ]B]"HYDRO"[/B]meaning fluid or water has a tendancy to remain static in a full vessel, and cannot be compressed, so when enough pressure is applied water/blood will break it's container ( blood vessels and arteries) in this case because the fluid must move away from the pressure and the walls of the vessel cannot move so bursts. This is known as "blood shot tissue"! Caused by HYDROSTATIC SHOCK.

..........................................................................

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
The word "HYDROSTATIC"is the proper word and simply indicates that ]B]"HYDRO"[/B]meaning fluid or water has a tendancy to remain static in a full vessel, and cannot be compressed, so when enough pressure is applied water/blood will break it's container ( blood vessels and arteries) in this case because the fluid must move away from the pressure and the walls of the vessel cannot move so bursts. This is known as "blood shot tissue"! Caused by HYDROSTATIC SHOCK.

There is nothing -hydrostatic- about the fluid dynamics of blood in a live animal before, or as it is being shot.

Before a bullet enters a live animal, its blood is already in a hydrodynamic state...as a result of its normal pressurized flow.

and infact, healthy arteries/vessels do move[constrict,dilate, stretch,flex] and assist in regulating blood pressure via such ability.

When they do so, they are exhibiting their "elastic" flow of tissue[recoverable deformation] i.e.; ability to return to their original shape following deformation.

They exhibit "plastic" flow, when they are damaged to the point of unrecoverable deformation,...ie; the point in which flowing behavior of the material occurs after the applied stress reaches a critical (yield) value.

So,... when an outside HV force is applied to the hydraulic system[via speeding bullet] to cause some of the already pressurised-flowing blood to be rapidly displace,
do you consider that a hydro-static or hydro-dynamic process?


Hydrostatic [def.] -relating to fluids that are at rest/ not in motion, or under pressure.

Saunders Veterinary Dictionary:
Hydrostatic[def.] -[i]pertaining to a liquid in a state of equilibrium or the pressure exerted by a stationary fluid.

Hydrodynamic[def.]
1. pertaining to forces in or motions of liquids.
2. Of, relating to, or operated by the force of liquid in motion.
3. a branch of physics that deals with the motion of fluids and the forces acting on solid bodies immersed in fluids and in motion relative to them.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
There is a slight difference between sitting at a desk and writing all sorts of wild "facts" about hunting.

I call them after one of my old favorite gun writers, Elmer Keith.

I enjoyed his writing, but that man would twist anything to make it sound as if any animal shot with anything less than a 50 caliber is not going to die.

One day I shot an impala. He was feeding about 50 yards away from us. He was facing us, and the 300 grain bullet, travelling at 2850 fps from the muzzle, generating a little bit more than 5,400 foot pounds of energy, hit him at the junction of the neck and shoulder. It penetrated his whole body, and stopped just under the skin next to his tail in his rear leg.

He seemed to flinch at teh shot. He did not run or move at first, just walked slowly as if he had a bad front leg. He walked a few yards, then stood fora bit, then lay down, and slowly died.

Now, for all intent and purposes, that impala should have been flung 10 feet in the air, and carried back a few yards too.

How come an animal that is about 120 pounds, can absorb over 5,000 pounds of energy, and not move?

Rip, I saw your rifle on another thread in the last day or so. I meant to respond then but got sidetracked.

That is one sweet hunting rifle!

Thank you, Todd, I spread it across 3 threads, finally my attention seeking paid off, ha ha!

No one disagrees: .375/404 Jeffery is the ultimate cartridge.
No flies on it.

With normal bullets it fits in anything that will hold a .375 H&H, as long as bolt face is opened up and magazine box is made wide enough.
With long-nose Walterhogs you need a .416 Rigby action with a 404 Jeffery bolt face.

You can easily obtain a Magnum Mauser box perfectly sized for the 404 Jeffery, or .375/404 Jeffery.
Even CZ supplies these as a standard off-the-shelf item.
The CZ 550 Magnum with the .458 WinMag/.458 Lott box with no ribs is such an item.


.416 Rigby, 500 Jeffery, .505 Gibbs?
Forget it unless willing to make do with less than perfection, a compromised magazine box ...