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I know that Saeed has taken numerous elephant and hundreds of buffalo with no problem using a .375 caliber rifle. I've heard over and over from others that it is necessary to use something above .400 caliber for dangerous game. There seems to be a disconnect here. Why do some proclaim above .400 is the way to go when others like Saeed with a great deal of hunting experience say a .375 is the way to go? Why would someone like Harry Selby say the .375 H&H magnum is enough gun for elephant when others disagree and advise above .400 is what is needed? What is it about people with a lot of hunting experience that would provoke them to state that a sub .400 caliber cartridge would be acceptable for the hunting of dangerous game such as elephant or buffalo? Are people unwittingly commenting on their shooting capabilities as Phil Shoemaker puts it? I think I'm beginning to understand. Thanks, jfm | ||
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I think there are numerous variables that come into play. First position on the pecking order i e sport hunter vs professional hunter, second experience, next shot placement. With a sport hunter with a PH backing 375 is suffent but for the back up a bigger hammer should be handy ie PH. But like every arguement about caliber it all ends up with shot placement. | |||
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I think the "bigger is better" mentality comes into play as well as hunters believing that the larger caliber allows for more margain of error. I've shot nine buff with 458 (1), 416 (5), and 375 (3). The ones shot with a 375 died fastest and ran the shortest distance. I will say that I was very impressed with the "little" 375! Will J. Parks, III | |||
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The 375 is sufficient for all African hunting. A larger caliber is a bit more sufficient. Some do not like to deal with the recoil of larger guns. For them, the 375 is a great choice. It will work. | |||
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Will, I know that this is a small sample but I would like to know what you feel caused the .375 to kill more quickly? Better penetration? More expansion? Better shot placement? Other? "Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult." | |||
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Anyone who says that the .375 is too small has probably never shot anything with one. I think that 99% of hunters, even good riflemen, will shoot closer to their point of aim from field positions with a lesser recoiling rifle. More accurate shooting may account for some people believing that the .375 bullets kill better. Kevin Robertson nas a 9.3X62 which he loaned to many of his clients. That rifle has cleanly killed 600 buffalo with no problem. Indy Life is short. Hunt hard. | |||
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The 375s were solids, so penetration was not an issue. It all boiled down to better shot placement. My grandfather formerly whacked and stacked cape buff with a 338WM and 250 grain monolothic solids from ASquare. Again, shot placement was the key.  Will J. Parks, III | |||
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The .375 has been proved to be one of the best penetration calibres in history. I have a table of all calibres from 9,3 x 62 up to .577NE and the only rifle with better penetration than the .375 is the .416 Rigby. Marius Goosen KMG Hunting Safaris Cell, Whats App, Signal + 27 82 8205387 E-mail: info@huntsafaris.co.za Website: www.huntsafaris.co.za Skype: muis19820603 Check us out on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kmghuntingsafaris Instagram: @kmg_hunting_safaris | |||
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...and if there is anyone that knows about balistics and buffs, he sure does. Met the Dr. himself. Great man, with vast knowledge to tap into. Marius Goosen KMG Hunting Safaris Cell, Whats App, Signal + 27 82 8205387 E-mail: info@huntsafaris.co.za Website: www.huntsafaris.co.za Skype: muis19820603 Check us out on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kmghuntingsafaris Instagram: @kmg_hunting_safaris | |||
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I find that pic quite disturbing. You smiling and holding a bleeding heart. Not going to add that image to your professional portfolio are you? ROYAL KAFUE LTD Email - kafueroyal@gmail.com Tel/Whatsapp (00260) 975315144 Instagram - kafueroyal | |||
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I think it boils down to shot placement. No matter what game(small or big)you shoot at. Shot placement will always be the most important factor for a fast and clean kill. A larger caliber will only be better if you still manage to always shoot as well with that as a smaller one. People are very different to how they cope with recoil and it doesn't matter so much what size or bodyweight they have. I have a friend that is very good shot, but his shooting starts to detoriate when shooting something more recoiling than a 308. Myself I shoot my 375Ruger with 300 grain bullets as well as I shoot my 6.5x55 with 100 grain bullets. I don't know at what stage my shooting starts to get affected by the recoil as I have not tried anything between my 375Ruger and a 460 Weatherby. But I do know that the 460 Weatherby makes my shooting worse. I have read and heard to many hunters saying that you have a larger margin of error using a bigger bullet as a reason for why they want to use something bigger. And that often ends up in them really needing a larger margin for error because their shooting skills decline when using their cannon. And someone is getting a long tracking job to do instead of a dead animal from a smaller well placed bullet. I have been doing lots of those tracking jobs for other hunters with my tracking dogs on different kinds of deer....... | |||
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I've read of elephant being taken with a .22 It is shot placement that matters regardless of caliber. Hunting in Africa is about fun. And frankly big calibers are really fun. It adds to the experience carrying a big double in the field and talking about your $20 cartridges around the bush TV. Someday I hope to do just that. But until then the highly efficient, and storied, 375 H&H is my choice. I would use it on anything moving over there. Though it isn't all that effective on ironwood. | |||
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The only thing that kill is shot placement! A Bell shot ele with 6.5, 303 and 7mm, and kill did he! So it boil down to shot placement! I use 404jeff when i hunt, but I practice, the recoil dont botters me, but the moment I become gun shy I would go down to lesser calibre!But if you read Taylor and the guys who do the culling in Africa they prefur bigger than .375h&h, it is reasuring to know you got that mutch better knokdown power! But .375H&H is one of the best allround calibres! | |||
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You are correct about the reasoning behind going with a bigger gun. I think too many hunters equate bullet weight or energy with killing power. This leads people to believe that a 416 with its 400 grain bullet is vastly superior to a 375 with its 300 grain bullet. With all the elephant hunting videos and TV shows I would think it is fair to say that the formulas that show the 375 to be a pipsqueak, and the bigger bores to have far more killing power(Taylor's KO values, etc.) don't seem to work in the real world. These shows make it pretty clear that a big bore that misses the brain is not likely to "knock-out" the elephant, much less knock them out for 30 minutes or an hour. Often times the elephant is not even stunned. When I watch these shows I am always amazed when I see the hunter miss the brain with a big bore and the elephant just turns and runs as though the hunter had hit him with a rock. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Dear JFM Shooting practice beats shooting power hands down. | |||
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Whilst I have had only great results with the majority of my DG taken with a 9.3mm, one feels more comfortable with a 40cal+ when hunting in the thick bush. This was also the same theory from guys like Taylor, Bartlett, Cedargren and Nychens to name a few. | |||
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Mac, I should have made myself more clear from the beginning. I do believe in a larger bore when things are happening up close and personal. This is the reason I purchased a double .470 recently. What I do not understand is when someone is shooting at 40 meters or more and claim a .416 or larger is the only option. I've read it over and over on this forum and many others. I can almost bet a lot of the people that make that claim would be better off practicing their shot placement rather than increasing their bore size. Hunters from all over the world have proven that many times over. Thanks for the responses so far. jfm | |||
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Sorry, my last post was meant for Ozhunter. Thanks again. jfm | |||
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Well, it seems we all think alike, but saying it in diferent ways. No matter how big a caliber you are using, unless you hit the central nervous system, you are NOT going to have an instant death, as in a charge. And for most people, I think it is better to use a rifle that you KNOW how to use well, rather than rely on some old wive's tales that a "larger caliber will make up for poor shooting" | |||
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The author must have had more booze than blood flowing through his veins when writing that  | |||
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I thought the same thing when I first heard it, but then someone posted a link to the article. IIRC it was a well known Zim PH or Parks guy. He reported that the feat was repeated with witnesses. It was discussed here on AR a couple of months ago. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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There is a world of difference between using a caliber that will consistently kill an animal - like a 375 - to something like trying a stunt like shooting ANY big game animal with a 22. Sure, it has been done. In fact, I do it all the time here on our own animals, where one has the choice of shot placement and distance at his disposal. In hunting? I would rather use a caliber that I KNOW will kill any animal I wish to take cleanly, all the time. | |||
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I'd like to add that PHs would rather not have clients cheat their way up to more powerful guns through the use of muzzle brakes. If you can't comfortably shoot something more powerful than a .375 without a brake, then please don't do it. As noted above, a .375 is plenty of gun, especially for a client, and guys who do this stuff for a living don't need any extra hearing damage from braked guns. Also, it's a lot harder for a PH to use binos to watch an animal's reaction to a shot when he has his fingers stuck in his ears. | |||
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I put a brake on my .22.. no more shoulder pain or flinching for me | |||
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The worst nightmare that ever happened to Cape Buffalo (right after rindepest) was the implementation of Rifle Scope...  | |||
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I have never hunted DG though I hope to in 2013. I shootmy 9.3X62 on the range usually off hand at 50meters - rapid fire. I have also shot a friends double rifles - 9.3X74R, 45/70, 450/400, 470, 500 NE & 600 NE. I shot the 450/400 Webley the best hitting a clay target on the mound at 25 meters. The 470 was my worst as it booted me in the face and gave me lump on my cheek which hurt for a week. The stock was a very poor fit for me. That 470 Chapui actually reduced my confidence when I ws shooting the Griefelt 500 & the Jeffery 600, though my shooting was on target - dead milk jugs. The point I am trying to make is - how many people hunt with big bores that do not fit them properly? I am really keen to know..... "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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I do not disagree that a 375 can kill an elephant. I just don't understand the notion it is suitable for elephant. It is your life so risk it as you wish. I feel hunter's have a responsibility to not put their trackers and PH at risk. Under most situations the careful shot with a 375 will work. When you are 10 yards from pissed off cows in cover a 375 seems a little light. If you get a bad situation and have an elephant bust in on you, a 450 & up might turn them but I doubt a scoped 375 will. Watch that clip with Ivan Carter when the cow explodes out of the trees right on him and tell me how happy you would be with a 375. Cows scare the hell out of me. Another problem is I doubt many remove their scope from the 375 when hunting elephant since it is probably being used for other game. It took me one elephant hunt to decide a scope was not the best idea for me at 10 yards. | |||
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At least it was the heart out of a critter, not out of one of his opponents in a court case! Even the rocks don't last forever. | |||
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LJS, These are my feelings as well. At 10 to 15 yards or closer, I'd feel quite a bit more comfortable with something like .458/.470/.500 caliber range. No way I'd have a scope set up on that rifle as you do not need one at that range. I'm saying a .375 is all you would need for approximately 40 meters and further and I do not understand people who proclaim you need greater than .400 calibers. I feel this is especially true with the super premium bullets available today in 300 or 350 grain solids in .375 caliber. Thanks, jfm | |||
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When I saw Will standing there in the picture,, my first thought,, "an attorney with a heart",, even if it was in his hands and bleeding,,,, back to the topic,,,,I have a 375 H&H mag and a 416 Rigby,,I have used both,, a lot. the 416 is much heavier and actually less recoil to me than my 375... 416 in a CZ with scope,,,1-4 trijicon weighs in about 13 lbs,, the 375 is a remington 700, stainless, synthetic,, ugly peice of gun with a 3X10 nikon that weighs about 8 lbs.... It is a hog blasting killing machine. It survives the jeep/ 4 wheeler trails, wet weather, banging around just fine. The big difference to me,,,,the 375 is economical to shoot using factory loads,, the 416 gets pricey.. On a buffalo hunt I would grab my 416 but my 375 will be there for a back up gun. because I have one...i shoot both equally effective. eyedoc and I will grab our 375's even to shoot deer here in the states,, good practice and very effective. I got a 300 ultra mag that is very accurate out past 300 yards,, but has a nastier recoil than the 375! It, the 300 ultra will stay at home. As almost everyone says,, the 375 is enough gun for most situations and animals..if shot well...Pick what you feel good with for most situations but if you like to shoot alot,, remember,, the bigger the bullet,, the bigger the cost per cartridge..My next gun,, either a 458 Lott or a 470 nitro,, becasue I don't have one,, and do I stay bolt trash or go to a double,, such things to ponder you can make more money, you can not make more time | |||
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Will, What bullet did you use to cause that amount of damage to the buff heart? A few years ago, Ganyana posted some interesting and sobering data here on the number of hunters that survived or didn't survive elephant charges in Zimbabwe. As I remember the data, none of those using a 375 survived, more survived when using the 416 and still more when using thw 458+s. It wasn't until you got to the big 50s that all survived. That data sure made me think but it does follow the convention of thought of all or at least most of the game dept. rangers. 465H&H 465H&H | |||
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Hi, could you post a link to Ganyana's post? I've got a 500 Jeffery, but really upgraded from my 375 H&H for buffalo more than elephant. I was under the misconception that as long as you had a good solid and enough penetration and hit the brain, caliber wasn't a determining factor on stopping power on elephant? I have no experience with either cape buffalo or elephant yet (hope to fix that soon), but always wanted a big 50 and I'm happy with my 500 Jeffery. Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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There seems to be some discussion about having a bigger caliber when the chips are down. I think it is more important in this sort of situation to have a rifle one is familiar with, and can shoot well. In close quarters, unless one hits the CNS, one is not going to stop the animal. | |||
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I would love to see that data as well. It is intuitive, but sometimes even things that are intuitive can be opaque. Mike | |||
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Perhaps Ganyana can supply the data as he often posts here. 465H&H | |||
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Of course the obvious flaw with statistics is that they often only focus on one variable and not the whole picture. For instance, it's arguable that the reason the .375 resulted in greater hunter injury is than the .500 is because statistically there are more .375's manufactured than a .500. Or, perhaps, that only more experienced hunters (*who have worked up tolerance and proficiency) would use a larger rifle like a .500. The key being "more experienced hunters" - ie: more accurate under pressure. Anyway, point is that to make Ganyana's commentary true requires the evaluation of more than just caliber. Regards, Robert ****************************** H4350! It stays crunchy in milk longer! | |||
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Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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I remember seeing those statistics as well. They had to do with the elephant being right on top of you and having to shoot up from beneath the jaw to hit the brain. I also read years ago in a Handloading magazine article that these statistics were not real and that there was never valid data gathered on it. I think this is along the same lines as stating your deer rifle knocked the deer back 10 feet when you shot it. Sorry, but no amount of bullet inertia does this. I don't know what is fact or fiction but I believe very few would have anything but a grim outcome when a 6-7 ton animal is in a position where one had to shoot up from underneath the jaws into the brain for a kill. I also cannot see where a 20 mm canon would be able to blow the elephant away from you so as not to crush you when it fell dead. Although I would like to have the biggest gun I could handle in this unique situation, I still feel this is one of those discussions akin to questioning how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. Thanks, jfm | |||
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As long as you hit and destroy the CNS, it will not make any difference what caliber you use, unless you use something insanely big. What energy do you think you need to stop 5-7 tons moving forward? A larger caliber might knock a charging elephant down for a short moment if you hit very close to the CNS, giving a bit more time to get away or to finish off the animal. But it will never stop,slow down or shorten a forward movement(sliding) of a charging elephant hit in the CNS. | |||
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First let me say I'm not an elephant hunter,however I do know a thing or two about hunting firearms! That being made clear,let's look closely at the old 375H&H. The 375H&H was introduced in 1912,99 years ago. Since that time the chambering has been used in every country in the world where large animals can be hunted. Any country that allows hunting, and that has larger animals to hunt you will find the 375H&H in the field, and ammo is more available world wide than just about any other big game cartridge. Gentelmen, a cartridge doesn't get that wide acceptance by accident. The cartridge is flat shooting enough to be very useful for long shots, while still haveing a large amount of power left at range. With proper bullets it is a great penetrator on large animals, and is the most reccomended chambering by PHs for the client hunter in Africa. The reccomendation is because most people can shoot the 375H&H better than larger rifles, and that it is a fine "one rifle" for everything on safari! Not saying it is the best for any of them, but is BETTER for them all, than something larger or smaller! Now to the subject at hand in this thread! Though I am a 375H&H fan,and have never found it lacking. It is, in some instances,only a fool would say otherwise! Where the big bore shows it value is when the shot is not from the best angle and up close where the need is immediate! In that instance,the bigger chambering can dump a lot more FPE into the target even if it doesn't hit the CNS, it may penetrate through tuffer bone or tissue to get closer with the attending energy to the CNS giving the shooter more time to either escape of reach a better angle for a finisher. The 375H&H is not a big bore but a medium bore and IMO big bore starts at .400, and if one is hunting elephant, my opinion is he should be useing a .400 or larger,(my choice would be a 500 NE double rifle) and bring a 375H&H along to hunt everything else! IMO when you are 6 yds from a rushing elephant you will be lucky to get him to even turn no matter what chambering you are shooting! ...........................................................................  ....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1 DRSS Charter member "If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982 Hands of Old Elmer Keith  | |||
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