I'm going to go out on a limb here and declare I'm a bit of a Bell sceptic as far as the current adulation of the 7x57 as used by 'Karamojo Bell is concerned. I own a 7x57 and it is my favourite rifle and calibre but everyone seems to quote Bell with the 7x57 when there is more to the story.

There is no doubt that he achieved an intimate knowledge of elephant anatomy and behaviour and travelled extensively. For his time his was quite a restless sole who had his familys wealth to support him. He may well have been a remittance man and his erratic travels suggests a confirmed bachelor with an eccentric personality.

His favourite rifle was the 6.5x54MS but the austrian sporting ammunition was unreliable in tropical conditions and he had to resort to the use of military ammunition for the 7x57. The .303 was his other common calibre whose ammunition had been develped for world wide use. These other two calibres were just too obscure for his later non hunting readers/consumers to digest. They did understand the 7x57 as the americans had been whipped by it during their invasion of Cuba and the british had seen it whip their forces in the Boer wars.

Many of his elephants were shot in what today would be considered naive populations. He would shoot the outside one first and then work inwards often shooting from the top of a ladder at equal height to their heads . You need a quiet and undisturbed population to do that. It also sounds strangely familiar to the elephant cull methods used in the early years of Zimbabwe to wipe out whole family groups starting with the matriarch. It was possible to take out whole heards by running into the centre of the 'mob' and continue shooting. Bell just walked in.

His first book was published when he was 43yo (1923). More of a travel log than anything else. Subsequent books were published when he was 69yo (1949) and in 1960. He died in 1954. He was well past hunting in Africa and I would submit his writings may have had more than a little spin doctoring involved or at best embellishment. When looked at in the light of the current Safari Industry his accomplisments are staggering but in the times he lived in all together possible.

For perspective, Nairobi was just a rail head in 1899 and the native population of Kenya was estimated at well less than 2 million. Vast areas were simply 'empty' when Bell started most of his elephant shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:

Many of his elephants were shot in what today would be considered naive populations. He would shoot the outside one first and then work inwards often shooting from the top of a ladder at equal height to their heads . You need a quiet and undisturbed population to do that.

culling methods aside, Bell was no stranger to taking on a herd of riled bull elephants bearing down on him- and cleaning them up[braining them] with his 7x57.

Its not that the 7x57 is inadequate, just that many people don't have what it takes.
Though some people [conditioned to another train of though], would call it stunt shooting.

Some folk think a larger dia. projectile-larger subsequent displacement of matter [in the heart,brain,ballistic gel or wetpack] is somehow indicative of greater lethality.

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:
Some folk think a larger dia. projectile-larger subsequent displacement of matter [in the heart,brain,ballistic gel or wetpack] is somehow indicative of greater lethality.

The central nervous system is an exception. A simple 'knock' can easily cause it to malfunction but that same knock will do nothing to other vital organs (heart, lungs, liver, arteries, etc). A bigger hole can be very beneficial when targetting those other organs!!

Bell chose to ventilate their brians alone with those smaller calibres for very good reasons. It was the right choice for him... He was chasing accuracy and penetration on the brain...

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

The central nervous system is an exception. A simple 'knock' can easily cause it to malfunction but that same knock will do nothing to other vital organs (heart, lungs, liver, arteries, etc). A bigger hole can be very beneficial when targetting those other organs!!

Bell chose to ventilate their brians alone with those smaller calibres for very good reasons. It was the right choice for him... He was chasing accuracy and penetration on the brain...

Like Bell, bow hunters can aim for accuracy when they attempt heart shots,..then you have animals heart shot by HV rifle,..sometimes exhibiting much more apparent permanent tissue damage than that typically inflicted by a broad head.
But accounts-imperial evidence shows that an animal will not necessarily expire any quicker or run any less distance, than those taken with less tissue damaging-broadhead.

If an Elk or African beasts heart is extensively destroyed by a centrefire, and it runs no less than the same species of animals hit by broadhead, how does one know when the bigger hole-greater tissue damage can be relied apon to be beneficial?

I remember reading about someone who reported hunting Africa and displayed what the medium bore bullet did to the animals heart,..saying that, a larger bore would not have been of any more benefit,
...by the same argument, I concluded that a smaller medium bore[than the one he used] would not necessarily have been any less effective,in bringing the animal to ground.

People have found the need to follow and/or track wounded beasts unusually & equally long distances, [despite after being solidly hit in the vitals], regardless of whether they used an considered well appropriate cartridge, or broadhead.

What I fail to understand is why a lot of people here on AR try and down-grade someone else (like Bell). Bell did not try and prove something to someone back in the day. During his day Africa was not the place to do it.
Elsewhere on AR people slam him for using a 7mm and try and find ways to prove that he was lucky or Bull-shitting etc. Why?
He had more experience than any 10 AR members combined and he lived to tell about it.
I for one is extremely grateful to him/Ruark/Tailor/Capstik/etc for leaving us with something to read.

Does the quantity of animals that you shot/hunted make you a better hunter than the next man. I do not think so.
My grandfather hunted East Africa during WW-2. He was commissioned by the Allied forces to provide meat for the troops. He hunted/shot a hell of a lot of Buffalo and Elephant during that time. The only rifle he used was a 303Brit.
He told me that he never tried to shoot fancy shots. He also did not hunt for the biggest tusks as his job was to provide meat and not ivory.

He always tried to aim for the lungs on big bulls and only used the brain shot on cows. He said that he put 2 - 3 shots into the lungs of an Elephant and then only followed it up after an hour to be safe. He had a whole bunch of natives to help with the meat. The ivory had to be handed in to the authorities.

He used a 303 because it was the rifle given to him. He said that he would prefer to use his bigger guns but ammo was always a problem.

He met and knew JA Hunter and always told me that JA was the most complete hunter in Africa. Why can we not just enjoy what those men left us with instead of trying to prove how wrong they were?

quote:

Originally posted by Trax:

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:

Many of his elephants were shot in what today would be considered naive populations. He would shoot the outside one first and then work inwards often shooting from the top of a ladder at equal height to their heads . You need a quiet and undisturbed population to do that.

culling methods aside, Bell was no stranger to taking on a herd of riled bull elephants bearing down on him- and cleaning them up[braining them] with his 7x57.

Its not that the 7x57 is inadequate, just that many people don't have what it takes.
Though some people [conditioned to another train of though], would call it stunt shooting.

Thank you for posting this. I hope everyone knows who this is and what rifle that is. BTW, that's a dead Elephant in the picture.

quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Rabe:
What I fail to understand is why a lot of people here on AR try and down-grade someone else (like Bell). Bell did not try and prove something to someone back in the day. During his day Africa was not the place to do it.
Elsewhere on AR people slam him for using a 7mm and try and find ways to prove that he was lucky or Bull-shitting etc. Why?
He had more experience than any 10 AR members combined and he lived to tell about it.
I for one is extremely grateful to him/Ruark/Tailor/Capstik/etc for leaving us with something to read.

Does the quantity of animals that you shot/hunted make you a better hunter than the next man. I do not think so.
My grandfather hunted East Africa during WW-2. He was commissioned by the Allied forces to provide meat for the troops. He hunted/shot a hell of a lot of Buffalo and Elephant during that time. The only rifle he used was a 303Brit.
He told me that he never tried to shoot fancy shots. He also did not hunt for the biggest tusks as his job was to provide meat and not ivory.

He always tried to aim for the lungs on big bulls and only used the brain shot on cows. He said that he put 2 - 3 shots into the lungs of an Elephant and then only followed it up after an hour to be safe. He had a whole bunch of natives to help with the meat. The ivory had to be handed in to the authorities.

He used a 303 because it was the rifle given to him. He said that he would prefer to use his bigger guns but ammo was always a problem.

He met and knew JA Hunter and always told me that JA was the most complete hunter in Africa. Why can we not just enjoy what those men left us with instead of trying to prove how wrong they were?

Dear Mr. Rabe:

I heartily agree with your entire post.

My only information on WDM Bell comes from Taylor's African Rifles and Cartridges. From Mr. Taylor's perspective, Mr. Bell used a high ladder as mentioned above to brain elephants in "elephant grass". While precariously positioned on that ladder with a bored local holding up the bottom, a big rifle would have thrown one off, according to Taylor's account. So, a light rifle with an ample bullet was the ticket.

Taylor said that he did the same thing in another area of Africa.

Taylor did recount that Bell was a machine who could shoot the pants off any other hunter, and was absolutely fearless.

Looks like Shelby's daughter could shoot pretty well, too.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

There was nothing romantic about Bell hunting elephants. There was no kissing of dead elephant photos like Ivan's.

Bell was just making a living out of killing elephants for their ivory.

Buying the cheapest surplus military ammunition he could find. Nothing very romantic or analytic about it.

You are going out to kill a rabbit or squirrel for supper. First you go to Walmart to buy the cheapest-ass box of 22's they got.

I guess you could post photos of you having a psychic bond with a dead squirrel. Not sure how many would buy that. But a dead elephant?

"The dead elephant's spirit has entered my soul and now we are one."

Nope. Bell killed elephants for money using Walmart 22's.

Get over it.

quote:

He met and knew JA Hunter and always told me that JA was the most complete hunter in Africa. Why can we not just enjoy what those men left us with instead of trying to prove how wrong they were?

quote:

There was nothing romantic about Bell hunting elephants. There was no kissing of dead elephant photos like Ivan's.

Bell was just making a living out of killing elephants for their ivory.

Buying the cheapest surplus military ammunition he could find. Nothing very romantic or analytic about it.

You are going out to kill a rabbit or squirrel for supper. First you go to Walmart to buy the cheapest-ass box of 22's they got.

I guess you could post photos of you having a psychic bond with a dead squirrel. Not sure how many would buy that. But a dead elephant?

"The dead elephant's spirit has entered my soul and now we are one."

Nope. Bell killed elephants for money using Walmart 22's.

Get over it.

Those two sets of sentiments shoul;d be enough to satisfy anyone. They won't, but they should.

It is simplyy easier on the InterNet, to point out other individuals "Supposed" short comings or lack of expertise, note matter how much historical evidence exits about what they did then just accepting the FACTS that Bell and his contemporaries lived and operated in a vastly different time, with in many cases radically different concepts of what would or did work than we live in today.

We can not repeat the feats those people accomplished, so we find ways to tear them down, instead of accepting the truth in that those folks simply became really good at what they did because they did not operate under the same constraints that we do today.

Mr. Rabe, Mr. Stewart, excellent observations on the subject

I just hope that when people use Bell as an example of what can be achieved with smaller calibres, they don't continue to only mention the 7x57.

They should keep in perspective what and how he hunted elephant and not forget he used a number of rifles of different calibres including a 450/400 (just not as frequently).

I think the important concept of the small bore for elephant that should be remembered is the bullet weights he used: 160 in 6.5 mm, 175 in 7 mm and 215 in .303. Today, people rarely shoot bullets of this SD, which is what gave Bell the penetration he needed.

Will,

You made me laugh this morning. Thanks! You can always be counted on to rip the guts out of any romantic notion one might have about Africa. Your still an asshole and please take that as a compliment.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
There was nothing romantic about Bell hunting elephants. There was no kissing of dead elephant photos like Ivan's.

Bell was just making a living out of killing elephants for their ivory.

Buying the cheapest surplus military ammunition he could find. Nothing very romantic or analytic about it.

You are going out to kill a rabbit or squirrel for supper. First you go to Walmart to buy the cheapest-ass box of 22's they got.

I guess you could post photos of you having a psychic bond with a dead squirrel. Not sure how many would buy that. But a dead elephant?

"The dead elephant's spirit has entered my soul and now we are one."

Nope. Bell killed elephants for money using Walmart 22's.

Get over it.

The projections of current hunter's values toward hunting, poaching, race, and conservation on those that lived and hunted Africa for a living 75-100+ years ago is rather amusing.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
There was nothing romantic about Bell hunting elephants. There was no kissing of dead elephant photos like Ivan's.

Bell was just making a living out of killing elephants for their ivory.

Buying the cheapest surplus military ammunition he could find. Nothing very romantic or analytic about it.

You are going out to kill a rabbit or squirrel for supper. First you go to Walmart to buy the cheapest-ass box of 22's they got.

I guess you could post photos of you having a psychic bond with a dead squirrel. Not sure how many would buy that. But a dead elephant?

"The dead elephant's spirit has entered my soul and now we are one."

Nope. Bell killed elephants for money using Walmart 22's.

Get over it.

Bell has mentioned in many of his writings that he only ever used the DWM 7x57 amunition so he was a little more selective than you indicate. In fact it was the ammo selection that caused him problems with and to relegate the 318 WR and the 256 MS.

From a previous thread on Bells letters - http://forums.accuratereloadin...1411043/m/6491029371

“Back at camp, I found that the Austrian ammunition I was using was defective. In this particular batch, some split at the neck of the cartridge when fired, and others simply refused to fire at all.
“Thinking about what had just happened, I broke into a cold sweat: suppose I hadn’t missed the buffalo? I could easily have been killed when the ammunition failed to fire. I had been very lucky not to have wounded the buffalo, only frightened him.
I read that Selous once had a very similar experience.
“After that, I stopped using the beautiful little .256 and went back to my trusty 7 mm Mauser. Using German (that is DWM) ammunition, I never had a problem.
“And I was never charged by a buffalo after this, because, quite simply, they never got the chance to charge me: I made very sure to kill them first, and used only the Mauser with DWM

Any record of how many elephants he shot that were never recovered?

Either lost or simply wounded?

I am a Bell fan but it was a different era and he was market hunting , not for sport.

SSR

Since Gail Selby's picture with Bell's .275 made it into the thread I forwarded the link to Mr. Selby. He kindly offered to share his thoughts on Bell and the caliber......


Hi Jim,
 
Thanks for your e-mail with the link to the AR website where the experts are discussing Bell's use of the 275 cartridge on elephant.
 
I was able to view the thread (surprisingly) and, Yes, that picture is of my daughter Gail with the elephant she shot with the Rigby .275 which Robert Ruark bought from Bell's estate and presented it to his godson Mark Selby.
That was the little Rigby's last elephant and I presume it will remain so due to caliber laws in most countries.
 
There is nothing magical about the 7X57 or .275 whichever you wish to call it.
Any 'strong jacketed' solid bullet with a good shape and sectional density at a reasonable velocity should reach an elephant's brain if properly directed there
This, Bell was able to do with unerring accuracy making it possible for him to rack up an impressive score of kills over a number of years and 'live to tell the tale'.
Actually, Bell mentions that when he later on used a .more powerful .318 Westley Richards with it's long 250 grain solid bullet the occasional 'unexplained miss' ceased.
 
After reading the various posts I have to agree with Mr. Rabe when he questioned the reason that  some AR members who may, or may not, have had sufficient experience to judge, endeavor to take apart well respected personalities of 'days gone by' such as Bell.
 
I was fortunate that towards latter part of 1945 I was employed by Philip Percival on the first overseas safari to return to East Africa after the end of World War 2. 
Through him I was again fortunate to meet up with, and get to know, some of the old time hunters who knew Bell well. 
Some of these men were famous  hunters in their own right, such as Percival, J.A.Hunter, Andy Anderson, Alan Black (who it is alleged was the first person to be referred to as a 'White Hunter') and others.
 
These men had conducted foot safaris lasting for months into the wilder parts of East Africa and neighboring countries, and were very conservative and not likely to give credit where it was not due.
Bell had been my hero since I first read his book 'Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter' and I bombarded anyone who would listen ceaselessly with questions about this, 'in my eyes' intrepid hunter and adventurer.
 
Never did I hear one of them say one negative word concerning Bell. He, and his exploits in Karamoja especially,were regarded with utmost respect, and his prowess as a marksman was a byword... The closest I came to hearing something that could be remotely regarded as negative, was from old Alan Black, who lived in a small corrugated iron shack a short distance outside Nairobi with his cat and red two seater Chevrolet car.
Black's response to my question concerning Bell was 'straight as a die, a tireless hunter, lots of guts and a fantastic shot'. but.... he wrote a book.
 
There appears to be a trend today that 'bigger is better' regarding big game rifles... how little one hears about correct shot placement, and learning to shoot a rifle well... the idea seems to be get the biggest cannon you can and  'blast it into the bag'...... If not hit right it won't wind up in the bag!!!
 
Incidentally, during the first world war Bell learned to fly and distinguished himself in the Royal Flying Corps. Obviously, a man of many talents.
 
Jim, I have passed my thoughts on the discussion to you, but should you wish to post them to the thread.. fine by me. Bell, was and is, as far as I am concerned the 'Legendary Hunter Of All Time'
 
With Best Wishes,
 
Harry Selby.

I love it when we get the chance to hear what a person who "done IT" thinks..Well said Mr Selby

quote:

Originally posted by MARK H. YOUNG:
Will,

You made me laugh this morning. Thanks! You can always be counted on to rip the guts out of any romantic notion one might have about Africa. Your still an asshole and please take that as a compliment.

Mark

I prefer curmudgeon but to each his own.

quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Rabe:
What I fail to understand is why a lot of people here on AR try and down-grade someone else (like Bell). Bell did not try and prove something to someone back in the day. During his day Africa was not the place to do it.
Elsewhere on AR people slam him for using a 7mm and try and find ways to prove that he was lucky or Bull-shitting etc. Why?
He had more experience than any 10 AR members combined and he lived to tell about it.
I for one is extremely grateful to him/Ruark/Tailor/Capstik/etc for leaving us with something to read.

So what should we do then ? Believe everything we are told without question ? Take at face value the romanticised images of the Safari Industry ?

To say the man had no faults is ludicrous. There is no perfect human being and to CONSTANTLY refer to the his use of the 7x57 is to display a lack of knowledge about the man and his achievements.

Frostbit, thanks for sharing that response from Harry Selby....

quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Rabe:

Does the quantity of animals that you shot/hunted make you a better hunter than the next man. I do not think so.

An AR member once said that Harry Selby is not a good example to quote regarding experience-advice on dependable rifles.
The reasoning being that, Mr Selby was such a good PH that he had less cause to shoot game... thus less experience/gained knowledge in doing so.

now,...after 53 full seasons of PH duties and needing to replace the barrel on his .416 Rigby, I'm not sure how much substance one should give that claim....

"...in any case I prefer one or two precisely aimed shot to a fusilade of random rapid fire" -Harry Selby.

I am sure someone else has mentioned this, but, we have modern hunters, trying to use modern thinking, when Bell was not doing safaris, he was a business man, making a living, killing elephants.

Seems like folks are completely overlooking the fact Bell was in the field continually, shooting elephants and other critters daily, not someone pout for a 21 day jaunt intent on shooting one elephant.

I guess it is just easier for some folks to find reasons to detract from a person that is no longer able to tell their side of the story, than admit that things were markedly different when Bell was hunting ivory and how things are today.

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:

So what should we do then ? Believe everything we are told without question ? Take at face value the romanticised images of the Safari Industry ?

Everything is open to question in this world.


- some believe that "hydrostatic shock" is real, when infact there is nothing hydrostatic about the whole bullet passing through live game process.

- some believe that projectiles fired into certain forms of artificial test media, are indicative of penetration/degree of tissue damage/lethality in an actual living creature,..imperical evidence gained from shot game would suggest otherwise.

- some boutique bullets are hype-marketed as "drive-band" design, sober fact is, even ordinary cup core Nosler, Sierra,Hornady,[and orig. barnes-X], are also a DB design.
They have one single-large DB, where as bullets like TSX have had their DB area reduced by introducing grooves, resulting in multiple drive-bands....other companies further increase the area[width] and/or number of such relief grooves, to create even narrower drive bands.

- some believe the resurrection of Jesus is real,however,collect the given form of evidence from the Bible and put it in a modern courtroom[the same one you would want yourself to be in if wrongly accused].. and see how well it goes in proving a person clinically died and then rose to life.

one can question the validity of Bells claims and hunting/shot skills, however his reputation and writings seem to be well supported by his peers/other famous professionals of the time.

When discussing Bell's exploits it seems a lot is made of 'his' method of hunting elephants by sitting up a ladder held up by his native boys and shooting elephants in the head in the elephant grass, a method even Taylor admits to using when hunting elephant in long grass. Taylor was not aware at that time that Bell also used the same method.

But like Taylor, this was by no means the only method that Bell used. His book "Bell of Africa" is probably the most complete biography of his exploits from childhood to retirement back in Scotland and to his death there. Bell shot many elephants under all sorts of conditions and of course shot hundreds of buffalo and other dangerous game none of which would likely have been from a ladder or platform.

As Harry Selby has said "there is nothing magical about the 7x57" but like the 303 British the early military ammo for these two cartridges was readily available and had heavy and long for calibre round nosed solid bullets, 175gr and 215gr respectively. These bullets are what made the 7x57 and 303 so effective on dangerous game when used by a cool, calm and accurate hunter like Bell.

There would be hunters living today who could easily emulate the feats of some of these old timers but of course they are not allowed to by law. The Mauser 7x57 and the Lee Enfield 303 are amongst the greatest firearms ever made, in fact the 303 SMLE with its 10 shot removable magazine able to be replenished with charger clips is recognised as probably being the best of all the battle rifles ever made.
It has also been given the reputation of having killed more game in Africa and wounded more, but the latter is more likely due to the universal availability of the rifles and ammo at a cost most anyone could afford and generally lack of ability of those using it to place their shots, rather than any inherent fault with the rifle or ammunition.

I don't have a problem with anyone questioning the prowess of those early hunters as some of the exploits do seem unbelievable but there are plenty of articles and books around that do shed light on what it was really like in those early days of Africa. Just like in my own country it can be unbelievable to imagine how some of our early hunters and deer-cullers as they were known, shot thousands upon thousands of red deer, chamois and tahr mostly using the 303 SMLE. These men became expert shots at running game and long range alpine shooting. I know their exploits were true because my father was amongst them.

quote:

Lee Enfield 303 are amongst the greatest firearms ever made, in fact the 303 SMLE with its 10 shot removable magazine able to be replenished with charger clips is recognised as probably being the best of all the battle rifles ever made.

I love the hell out of my SMLE. I would love to have one made up in a decent stock for hunting. It doesn't do anything spectacular but I think it would be fun.

If I hit the lottery I'd have a 303 double made...now THAT would be neat!

Bell was a gentleman who recounted his adventures very matter-of-factly. The people he describe, their way of life, their behaviour, his interaction with them, the places he went through, everything is just as it is in real life.

He had nothing to prove, and never tried to impress the reader, rather understating many of his adventures. He was one of the few whites who understood the mind of the Africans he met, the differences between tribes and people of various places, and how to adapt to their ways without losing his own identity.

That's why he could roam Karamoja for five years without ever having to shed a man's blood. The locals respected him because he respected and understood them. Believe me, no bullshit will ever get you anywhere in an African's heart, they see through it like through an open window.

And the grass where he had to use a tripod to shoot elephant is still there, growing much taller than the roof of today's Land Cruisers, miles and miles of a thick tall green mass into which hunting elephants is the last thing that would come to your mind when seeing it. It took serious balls to go there and do that.

BTW, he was not using "the cheapest ammo man can buy", he was using the most reliable ammo he could get, and came to his final choice through trial and error - errors that could have cost him his life in more than one occasion.

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
I love it when we get the chance to hear what a person who "done IT" thinks..Well said Mr Selby

Some asshole know-it-all will come along shortly saying that Harry Selby is full of shit.

Sure would like to meet Mr Selby myself one day. Imagine the stories!

times were different back then. People just did what needed done and didn't spend hours engaging in what we today term "analysis to paralysis..."

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by Code4:

So what should we do then ? Believe everything we are told without question ? Take at face value the romanticised images of the Safari Industry ?

To say the man had no faults is ludicrous. There is no perfect human being and to CONSTANTLY refer to the his use of the 7x57 is to display a lack of knowledge about the man and his achievements.[/QUOTE]

------------------------------------------------

No Code4.
You do not need to believe everything you hear or read. Just that that you hear or read from someone that has experience in something and did not get it from dvd's, internet or theory and math.

The internet is a wonderful tool but it will never beat experience.
No one ever said that Bell did not have faults. He had many but it had nothing to do with hunting. Some of the other legends of that era totally disagreed with Bell on caliber.

One was a gentleman by the name of Hamman that also hunted elephant for a living. He only used a pair of .577's. He was also an excellent shot with them and he shot hundreds of elephant. He mentioned that he thought that Bell was totally nuts but admitted that he knew no one that was more accurate with a rifle.

That is the secret to hunting. Not the size of the bullet that you send to the animal but where you put it.

Harry Manners used a normal .375H&H for 99% of his elephants. He told me many times that he shot more ammo practicing than he ever used for hunting. He retired from hunting and lived in Skukuza in the Kruger National Park in SA where I was born and grew up so I knew him well.

If he was so successful with a .375H&H who are we to say that it is not a great elephant rifle.

I think that we all share the same passion for hunting but we can only dream of the bygone time when the legends staked their claim and so we talk and talk and analyze and talk some more and then we start finding fault because we talk to much and shoot to little.

quote:

Originally posted by BigUglyMan:

quote:

Originally posted by A.Dahlgren:
I love it when we get the chance to hear what a person who "done IT" thinks..Well said Mr Selby

Some asshole know-it-all will come along shortly saying that Harry Selby is full of shit.

Sure would like to meet Mr Selby myself one day. Imagine the stories!

If that happens then I would like to be face to face with that A-hole you mention. He will wish that his mother never met his father the one time they did. I know Mr. Selby and I have never met bigger gentleman than him.

Ladies and Gentlemen:

I try to learn from my shooting and hunting experience, and also from insightful works written by others on those topics, amongst others. Sometimes, I screw up nonetheless, like when I over-lapped the lugs on a Brno Mauser after reading exceptionally bad advice, that was actually printed in a published book. Imagine that, and that published advice was just as bad as CBO scoring.

Wasn't Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto published, too? Now, that was the worst advice in all creation.

Maybe I can learn something from Mr. Bell. I think I'll buy his book.

Hey, I've caught Jack O'Connor in internal inconsistencies, since I own and have read many of his works. I'm internally inconsistent at times, too.

That does not mean, that I have not learned a boat-load from reading Mr. O'Connor's works.

Isn't learning the whole point behind the concept of the AR Forum?

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

All,
Speaking only for myself; the most disturbing thing about this thread is that is totally unremarkable in its premise in today's world. That being the best way to raise one's self is to denigrate someone else and the chief way of doing that is to simply raise "doubt" about them. It is a Very sad state of affairs.
On Mr. Bell: I would say that doubting the body of his work is akin to doubting the Titanic could be sunk. I find Bell's writings just as beneficial in understanding African history and the Tribal behavior there at the time as I do his great mastery with the rifle and hunting as he simply observed keenly and wrote about it clearly. He was not subject to racism because it had not been "invented" yet. Hatred, selfishness, and greed were well in place and he observed and wrote extensively about that, the tragedy of “Abyssinian Slavers” for example. He held those with whom he hunted and lived in high esteem for their qualities and abhorred their “faults” but judged them not by his standards. He simply observed and recounted them as their choices. He was able to move about the hunting lands safely, more or less, due to his great ability to understand and deal with the people of the land. I admire that. Not many have been able to do so and wrote about it so clearly.
Best regards,
dmw

quote:

Originally posted by Fury01:
All,
Speaking only for myself; the most disturbing thing about this thread is that is totally unremarkable in its premise in today's world. That being the best way to raise one's self is to denigrate someone else and the chief way of doing that is to simply raise "doubt" about them. It is a Very sad state of affairs.
On Mr. Bell: I would say that doubting the body of his work is akin to doubting the Titanic could be sunk. I find Bell's writings just as beneficial in understanding African history and the Tribal behavior there at the time as I do his great mastery with the rifle and hunting as he simply observed keenly and wrote about it clearly. He was not subject to racism because it had not been "invented" yet. Hatred, selfishness, and greed were well in place and he observed and wrote extensively about that, the tragedy of “Abyssinian Slavers” for example. He held those with whom he hunted and lived in high esteem for their qualities and abhorred their “faults” but judged them not by his standards. He simply observed and recounted them as their choices. He was able to move about the hunting lands safely, more or less, due to his great ability to understand and deal with the people of the land. I admire that. Not many have been able to do so and wrote about it so clearly.
Best regards,
dmw

Gentlemen, I don’t think most here are doing anything close to finding fault with Mr. Bell. I’m sure he was a stand up guy, who didn’t kick puppies or mistreat horses. Today there are only a couple of people living who even come close to the elephant count of Bell, Richard Harland comes close I’d think.

There is a reason so few have taken large numbers of elephant today with any chambering, but I’d say that if it were allowed as it was in Bell’s day there are any number of people today who could even top his bag though it wouldn’t last long if they did. This would be possible because of the use of vehicles, and far better firearms and quality ammo today. Simply because we live today has nothing to do with us being less as capable than any of the old timers if laws were not in place to stop us, or the very high cost involved.

The old timers like Bell and others were not gods, just men who were living in a time when market hunting was an accepted occupation. One reason Bell used the 275 (7X57 Mauser) was simply because the ammo and Mauser rifles were cheaper than most larger bores, and DWM being the ammo that worked best that was his choice. That was because they hunted on foot for months at a time the ammo was far lighter to carry, so far more rounds could be carried on those two or three month foot hunts. It is no secret that Bell was a little recoil shy, and simply liked rifle with less recoil so tended to shoot them far more accurately. Nothing wrong in that!

Like any writer, Bell was not going to dwell on elephant wounded and lost in his books, but anyone who has a lick of common sense knows with a bag as large as Bell’s some simply were wounded and not followed up. Stop and think about my last statement! Anyone who thinks that is not the case has his head in the sand!

The way Bell and others hunted was to find a group of elephant and kill as many as they could before they escaped. One or two shot and not down with ten on the ground to process, nobody is going to track a wounded elephant ten or twenty miles on foot kill him and carry the ivory back the same distance to the sight of the large kill, on foot. It stands to reason that they simply let them get away. That being said the fact that he used smaller chamberings would also translate into a higher percentage of loss IMO. After all there was an unlimited supply of elephant and nobody was keeping a bag score except the man doing the shooting. A few lost and a lot collected was an acceptable outcome for the small percentage collateral damage of lost animals. Some of them likely survived the wounds anyway.

In Bell’s case there were no laws to worry about, only the amount of ivory he could collect. That was the goal, the amount of ivory he could collect in a season. This was not limited to Bell or to only those who chose to use smaller chamberings but to all ivory hunters of that time.

Later when guys like Taylor, and Wally Johnson were shooting ivory times had changed and there were some rules involved and on many hunts these guys were laterally poachers and were sure not going to track any wounded down, but had to process the ivory they downed and beat it out of the area. None of this has anything to do with these guys being nice men! They simply lived in a different time, a time when most thought wild life in Africa was unlimited, and were simply a way to make a dollar, much like the safari companies today who still make their living off the killing of wildlife, but are limited to a quota they must sell to client hunters, and under rules that state a wounded animal like the elephant or any of the dangerous animals wounded must be followed and sorted out. Any animal wounded and lost must be paid for, and comes off the quota. Also rules now have minimum caliber rules for certain game, and those rules are there for a reason whether we like them or not. Those rules are on the books because they have found over time that certain chamberings are far more likely to wound large animals like buffalo and elephant than larger more powerful chamberings. In Bell’s day nobody cared except Bell if what he shot was lost, costing him time and/or money, but we, today must CARE by law!

I think many of you are giving the AR rank and file as bad a rap as you say we are giving Bell. Nothing could be farther from the truth in either case. It is just that anyone who has hunted big game very long knows that your chances of wounding and loosing a large animal is higher when using a “JUST ADIQUATE” chambering rather than a MORE A THAN JUST ADIQUATE chambering! If anyone has an equal distain for a small chambering, on large animals, it would be IMO, one that is so large the shooter is afraid of the recoil.

No matter what anyone says or believes there is a sweet spot in chamberings that lies between too small, and too large that over the last 100 or so years are found to work best. The old timers simply didn’t have the kind of rifles and chamberings, as well as very good bullets that we have today, so had to use what they could shoot and carry the ammo for, and learn to make them work.

I don’t see that as tearing the old guys like Bell down, because if they had had the choices we have today, and had to operate under the rules we live under today then they most likely would have used something other than what they did then.

………………………………………………………………………………………………..................................................................................…..HOLD YOU FIRE! ''''''''''''''''''

A very truthful recount Mac.

Good one Mac.

The use of small bore breach loaders at the time when Bell made it Africa was by no means a fad nor something that he alone did.

It was the norm for the day and there were others who shot even more Elephant than he did using the 7mm Mauser and the 303. ( their story is largely untold as they were not writers and they were Boers.)

Of the biggest gun grabs by a a government also took place in the Zoutpansberg district in the old Transvaal in 1893 when the ZAR government made the blacks turn in guns given to them by their masters for purposes of hunting.

For a time ( 1877 unitll the Boer war) the Martini Henry and the Snider in 450- 577 was the gun of choice and there are many accounts in the archive and the South African hunting history of the preference of these metallic cartridge breech loaders above the old muzzle loader BP elephant guns.

Selous who learnt his trade from a Boer hunter by the name of Jan Viljoen and a hunter by name of Jacobs preferred the old 4 bore and 10 gauge muzzle loaders above the 45 express BP's of the day.

Selous had a single shot 450 express that he wanted to use during his last elephant hunt in 1880 but it was not accurate so he went back to the use of the old muzzle loaders.

By 1871 most of the Boer elephant hunters were using the Martini Henry and Westley Richards in 450 cal. This was a problem for the ZAR and Free State governements when it became apparent that War clouds were gathering because their was such an array of guns of various calibre that a militia could not be armed and supplied with ammo, hence the procurement of the 7mm and 7mm ammo.

What made Bell unique is that he was definitely the man's man.

At 17 he goes to africa ( that puts him in Uganda in 1897) where he takes up a job shooting game for the Railway as well as Lion.... with a flawed Single shot 303 by Dan'l Fraser.

He does not do this for long possibly one year only as he ends up in Canada in the Yukon in Dawson City during the Clondike Gold rush where he works as a hunter.

The Boer War breaks out on the 11th of October 1899 and he enlists as a volunteer.

His service record and medals given is recorded in the Canadian National Archive. His regimental number is # 50 under the Royal Canadian Horse or As it is known known as the Lord Strathcona's Horse.

When the war ends in 1902 he takes up his elephant hunting and does so untill the First World war. Bell's elephant hunting career is mostly from 1902 to 1911 . He enlists for WW1 from 1914 to 1918 and ends up with thr rank of Captain. His hunting career in Africa is done by 1920..... so in total he hunts elephant for only 12 years.

By own admission he preferred the light recolling 7mm and 303 above the large bores. He actually did have a 450- 400 but did not like this.

He was not the only hunter that had this prefererence.

Arguably the biggest elephant hunter was a rich boer farmer by the name of Jan Harm Robertse who hunted mainly in the north of Nambia and in the south of Angola. Robertse did not participate in the Boer war but hunted during this time. The recorded number of elephant shot by him was around 2000 for the last 14 years of his hunting career between 1894 and 1908, what is unrecorded was the elephant shot by him before this time from around 1880. Robertse used the martini henry ( it was introduced to Africa around 1871 and later the Mauser 7mm and 303 British. He employed hunters as well they had to supply their own horses and rifles and he supplied the cases of ammo. It is estimated that he shot about 150 elephant on average per year and his worst year recorded was 50 only for 1894 in Shimboro in Southern Angola. His best year was in the kunene during the boer war in 1900 when he shot 182 elepehant..... this was poaching as Namibia was under German rule and they had to also evade German Horse Patrols.

Here is a summary of some of the more common things known about Bell and his weapons:



1. Bell did not perpetuate or claim the 7x57 was good for elephant hunting.

This is an assumption perpetuated by others.

He specifically claims the 318 WR to be perfect followed by the 8x57 Mauser.

He dislikes the long action rifle calibers like the 350 Rigby and the 416 Rigby because of the inherent problems of "short stroking "with these actions.

He also does not like recoil.

2. The elephant hunted at the time were not the same as modern elephant in that they at the time had no fear and or contact with man.

So if the same was to be done by 1930 he certainly would not have had success as he had when he started hunting in 1902.

3. He starts off hunting with the 303 as well as the 7x57 by virtue of Boer War weapons of war.

4. What is not known is in what form the original 7x57 is or how many he owned prior to actually ordering the first recorded by Rigby in 1910.

The Rigby 275’s :

These came at the conclusion of his career and only the fifth rifle ordered was fit for ele hunting way after he had retired

First order is in 1910 for a Number 2 rifle ( high velocity 140 gr version) ( not suited for elephant)

Second rifle: 1911: No 2 rifle
Third rifle: 1912: No 2 Rifle
Fourth Rifle: 1922 No 2 Rifle
Fifth rifle: 1923: No 1 ( 174 gr bullet version)

Other Rigby rifles:

Rigby 416: 1912
Rigby 416: 1913.
Rigby 350: ?
Rigby 360: ?

5. The 6.5x54: Bell buys a 6.5 by Dan'l Frazer in England circa 1909?

He likes this little rifle and uses it in the Lado enclave.

6. The 318 WR:

He did indeed hunt with the 318WR but only after 1911 cause he got his first 318 in 1911 of he had two of these.

He swapped them intermittantly from a gun bearer.
The 318 was developed in 1910.

7. There is reference to a mauser 8x57.

8. The 450/400 double: There is conflicting reference to the 450/400 double as to when used. He indicates though he dislikes recoil

9. The 303: He hunts with a Enfield 303 dislikes the action and in 1907 orders as Mauser 98 in 303. This is therefore a intermediate action 303 mauser Built specially for Rigby.

He likes the 303 and then drops it in 1910 cause Kynoch stops making the 215 gr bullet in favour of a 174 gr bullet totally unsuited for ele hunting.

Timeline: ( important as to when he hunted owning and using what rifles)

Starts hunting elephant 1902.

Ends hunting career in 1920.

During the War 1914-1918 he does not hunt.

Most of his Ele hunting is done 1902 to 1911.

On first hunt he has ? 8 Snider rifles and his 303 Enfield.

Conflicting reports of only 303's and then further confusion as to reference of a 450 /400.

Accurately it would appear only 303' s and a 7x57 Rigby Mauser, whether he meant a 275 or the German version is not clear.


In 1911 when he hunts Liberia he has no 7x57 with him, only a 318 WR and a 22 Rook rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:


The old timers like Bell and others were not gods, just men who were living in a time when market hunting was an accepted occupation. One reason Bell used the 275 (7X57 Mauser) was simply because the ammo and Mauser rifles were cheaper than most larger bores, and DWM being the ammo that worked best that was his choice. That was because they hunted on foot for months at a time the ammo was far lighter to carry, so far more rounds could be carried on those two or three month foot hunts.

Bell’s Karamojo safari began on the coast of Kenya, it was a huge logistical operation, requiring a rather large body of porters. The trip through the interior lasted 14 months, he took 180 tuskers and came back heavy laden with near 19,000 pounds of ivory.

However,your telling us he chose the lighter 7x57 round because he was concerned about the weight of his[diminishing]ammunition stock?

quote:

However,your telling us he choose the lighter 7x57 round because he was concerned about the weight of his ammunition stock?

Bell's safaris into Karamoja usually took off from Mumias, in Western Kenya. He would leave the main party for weeks or months at selected locations, where they would establish large camps. The Karimojong still remember several of these camp locations.

He would leave camp for hunting with a much smaller party, comprising porters and other hunting staff. With these, he'd roam the country far away from the main camp.

When actually pursuing and shooting elephant he would have very few men with him, often only one or two. He would carry his own rifle and ammo. Although I don't recall Bell putting much emphasis on the weight of ammo in his books, this is where that weight becomes of importance.

Try and carry 40 rounds of 450/400 or 40 rounds of 7x57 on you for any length of time in the bush, and you'll understand the difference.

quote:

Try and carry 40 rounds of 450/400 or 40 rounds of 7x57 on you for any length of time in the bush, and you'll understand the difference.

5lb vs 2.5lb , or there abouts.