JD, if i find you one will you book it?

Besides, as stated before, comparing costs of operations in the Save and one of the TZ blocks is like apples and oranges. For a start, one's costs are ammortized over 30-50 years the other over 12 months at the most!

Look,no one including i are saying that TZ isn't expensive; on the contrary, it is the most expensive destination to hunt in Africa $ vs $ comparison (together with Zambia). But many of you make it sound like operators are simply over-charging for profits and that high operating costs aren't part of the reason. That there can't be further from the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
TGT and Tommy Freidkin from Texas has their own Air Force in TZ.....they might even set the standard??!!

Cheers

Someone might just answer you on that one

TGT does not operate any aircraft . Their sister company, NOrthern Air, operates 2 Cessna caravans............ hardly an air force wouldn't you agree

And they charge market prices for their charters with just a 20% mark-up

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:

......many of you make it sound like operators are simply over-charging for profits and that high operating costs aren't part of the reason. That there can't be further from the truth.

The way some people describe hunting outfitters make it sound like its the right kind of business to make shitloads of money the easy way, mainly by fleecing clients.
Some of the old, well established outfitters have indeed made a bit of money after a lifetime of outfitting but not many ride around in a Rolls-Royce or fly around in private jets.

bwanamich,

Having been in the industry for quite some time I am interested to know what your definition of a "Captain" is vs a "pilot"?

Being "captain" of a Carvan is much like being captain of a rowboat. All the stripes and flash worn about a uniform don't make one a "captain".

On the fact that a multi-crew operation is generally safer than a single pilot operation I won't argue. but placing some "meat in the seat" flunky in the right seat and calling the marginally more experienced guy in the left seat is a bit of a stretch.

As far as cost however, having two guys up front is no guarantee that they are being paid more or are safer than one good pilot.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

Being "captain" of a Carvan is much like being captain of a rowboat. All the stripes and flash worn about a uniform don't make one a "captain".

That is hysterical. Takes me right back to every charter flight I have ever been on in Africa. Hey, maybe that is what those guys in Alaska need: more flash, less dash.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
bwanamich,

Having been in the industry for quite some time I am interested to know what your definition of a "Captain" is vs a "pilot"?

Being "captain" of a Carvan is much like being captain of a rowboat. All the stripes and flash worn about a uniform don't make one a "captain".

On the fact that a multi-crew operation is generally safer than a single pilot operation I won't argue. but placing some "meat in the seat" flunky in the right seat and calling the marginally more experienced guy in the left seat is a bit of a stretch.

As far as cost however, having two guys up front is no guarantee that they are being paid more or are safer than one good pilot.

My thoughts exactly!

You guys from TZ make me laugh. I understand the obvious costs in operating at distant remote locations . That, however, has not much to do with all the government costs and add on. Remember the trophy fee debacle?

Are the operators getting rich? I have no idea. However, I did observe one very well known PH from TZ running around the convention last year like he was some kind of celebrity wearing his sunglasses non-stop. The same PH put up about $80,000 for a new Westley-Richards double. Times must be tough.

I will admit tha the TZ hype appeals to me. Remote. Lots of game, etc etc etc. the reality I have witnessed is that it never lived up to the hype.

The powers that be (government) is making the country a lot less attractive . Just wait to 2013. It will be interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
You guys from TZ make me laugh. I understand the obvious costs in operating at distant remote locations . That, however, has not much to do with all the government costs and add on. Remember the trophy fee debacle?

Are the operators getting rich? I have no idea. However, I did observe one very well known PH from TZ running around the convention last year like he was some kind of celebrity wearing his sunglasses non-stop. The same PH put up about $80,000 for a new Westley-Richards double. Times must be tough.

I will admit tha the TZ hype appeals to me. Remote. Lots of game, etc etc etc. the reality I have witnessed is that it never lived up to the hype.

The powers that be (government) is making the country a lot less attractive . Just wait to 2013. It will be interesting.

Larry,

Tanzania concession can vary enormously by the number of game animals they have.

Some concessions which have not been looked after - and basically abused to outfitters - do have a lot less game than they should.

Other concessions, which have been looked after by their outfitters, have an enormous amount anf variety of game animals.

You might have read here about some hunters hunting certain places in Tanzania, and never setting eye on buffalo, as an example.

go to showsci.org and do an auction search for Tz. hunts. there are 6 of them. the air charters( extra to the buyer) range from $2600( a relative bargain) to a high of $9000( for a C 208!!!).average is about $5000. and bear in mind that when people talk about the high cost of running a camp- YOU ARE PAYING FOR A GOOD PART OF IT. take a look in the cargo hold of the Caravan that you are paying for. it will be full of the food for your safari as well as other misc. supplies. the outfitter didn't pay for camp resupply- you did....so how can camp resupply be so expensive( except for fuel) since the charters are PAID FOR BY CLIENTS ARE FOOTING THE BILL FOR RESUPPLY???

Call it a COUNTRY CLUB LIFESTYLE- African style for the Outfitters, EH??!!
Work a 5 month season doing something you love...and live like an African King the rest of the year!!
At WHOES EXPENSE??
Larry, Saeed, Jdollar...you got it right!!
Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
bwanamich,

Having been in the industry for quite some time I am interested to know what your definition of a "Captain" is vs a "pilot"?

Being "captain" of a Carvan is much like being captain of a rowboat. All the stripes and flash worn about a uniform don't make one a "captain".

On the fact that a multi-crew operation is generally safer than a single pilot operation I won't argue. but placing some "meat in the seat" flunky in the right seat and calling the marginally more experienced guy in the left seat is a bit of a stretch.

As far as cost however, having two guys up front is no guarantee that they are being paid more or are safer than one good pilot.

My thoughts exactly!

Todd: maybe we ought to go into this charter business together, we can then wear our "Chokers" festooned with our stripes and ribbons and charge 3X the price!

If I ever fly in a Cessna and the pilot's wearing four stripes, I believe I'd die laughing!

jorge,

I remember at our flight school, they had a sign that said as soon as you get your private license, you have the RIGHT to be called CAPTAIN.

And a captain wears 4 stripes, regardless of what he flies

Howdy Saeed, just a wild guess, but I figure you have all the "tickets" plus rated in a few multi-engine types including props and blowers too!

There are a few charter company's in Tanzania and most outfitters have one they use. You have the right to check to see if you can get a better deal on your flight into the bush.

When the camp is set up, it need to be restocked on a monthly or by-monthly basis...eating old food is for the birds.

So yes the caravan is stocked with your luggage plus supplies for the camp...it is also a mail shuttle between camp and the main office. Usually, soft drinks, beer, wine, liquor, and food items are on your flight for you to enjoy. This is no difference in driving into the bush in South Africa, Or Zimbabwe from what i can see or tell. Tanzania does not a have a good road system, so air it is to most camps.

Most camps have a few to many workers that are on the payroll. And everyone like to eat and drink, including you.
1. head tracker - gun bearer for PH and or shooting sticks
2. tracker - your gun bearer
3. tracker in training - water carrier
4. Driver (sometimes there are 2)
5. Cook - chef
6. laundry - Tent
7. attendant - waiter server
8. Camp boss
9. Staff Cook
10. Skinner
11. Skinner helper
12. security - night watch
13. Security - night watch

Plus these are in camp.
1. PH
2. PH in training (sometimes for part of your safari)
3. Cameraman
4. Conservation person - government game scout
5. Self - the hunter
6. Observer - friend, wife or other.

Now if you have another hunters in camp the list goes up.
1. Driver
2. Tracker
3. Tracker - water man
4. PH
5. Hunter
6. Observer
7. Conservation person

so do not sell the air shuttle short on resupplying the camp in the bush.

Wait for it!....."charter your own damned aircraft to stock the camp - at your expense....not mine!"

Some clients may want to fly in an empty plane and I suppose it is their right to do so seeing its their money that bought the flight.

Others look at it from a different perspective.

The problem is we spend all our money on new Ferraris and Bugatti Veyrons etc. We then forget we're running a business that needs to pay bills such as medical insurances, mortgages, utilities and school fees etc.

There was me thinking PHs are usually so poor they have to look for off season employment if they can't hunt all year and outfitters spend half their time worrying about how they can pay the staff costs, combat poachers and pay for the new trucks that get fucked up so quickly and cost a bloody fortune to replace.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

There was me thinking PHs are usually so poor they have to look for off season employment

Thats bad, really bad

Jorge,

When we open this flying club, we should wear these for shoulder boards and call ourselves "Commodore" instead of Captain.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

When we open this flying club, I want to wear these:

As jock straps?

Hey a lot of Countries require the "driver" to wear stripes...makes no difference if a Private, Commercial, or ATP (in US Parlance)...gotta wear them...I had to when we did a self drive flying safari in SA, Botswana,and Zim a few years ago. Apparently it gives you status on the ground with the various "officials"....if you gonna be impotent...you gotta look impotent!!
I like the Flying Club garb...WOW!!...jock strap, well, maybe NOT!!

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Howdy Saeed, just a wild guess, but I figure you have all the "tickets" plus rated in a few multi-engine types including props and blowers too!

Yes, on both fixed wing and rotary.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana338:
There are a few charter company's in Tanzania and most outfitters have one they use. You have the right to check to see if you can get a better deal on your flight into the bush.

When the camp is set up, it need to be restocked on a monthly or by-monthly basis...eating old food is for the birds.

So yes the caravan is stocked with your luggage plus supplies for the camp...it is also a mail shuttle between camp and the main office. Usually, soft drinks, beer, wine, liquor, and food items are on your flight for you to enjoy. This is no difference in driving into the bush in South Africa, Or Zimbabwe from what i can see or tell. Tanzania does not a have a good road system, so air it is to most camps.

Most camps have a few to many workers that are on the payroll. And everyone like to eat and drink, including you.
1. head tracker - gun bearer for PH and or shooting sticks
2. tracker - your gun bearer
3. tracker in training - water carrier
4. Driver (sometimes there are 2)
5. Cook - chef
6. laundry - Tent
7. attendant - waiter server
8. Camp boss
9. Staff Cook
10. Skinner
11. Skinner helper
12. security - night watch
13. Security - night watch

Plus these are in camp.
1. PH
2. PH in training (sometimes for part of your safari)
3. Cameraman
4. Conservation person - government game scout
5. Self - the hunter
6. Observer - friend, wife or other.

Now if you have another hunters in camp the list goes up.
1. Driver
2. Tracker
3. Tracker - water man
4. PH
5. Hunter
6. Observer
7. Conservation person

so do not sell the air shuttle short on resupplying the camp in the bush.

you are right. most of the camp supplies come in by air- mail, food, booze, paperwork from the home office-all the stuff you need to have a better safari. and guess who is paying for it? i honestly don't recall ever seeing a plane come in at the outfitters expense to just to resupply a camp anywhere in Tz, Moz, Zim or Botswana. a member here PM'ed me with a bit of info about this situation. he was charged $XXXX for his charter from Dar into the Selous. he was later billed for an additional approx 50% more because a larger plane was needed(even though it was because of a maintenance issue with the agreed upon plane and had nothing to do with his flight.) but he was still expected to pay more because the charter company couldn't supply the agreed upon plane. he was understandably pissed. he called a charter company in Dar( Coastal Aviation) and inquired about rates to charter to the original specified destination. HE WAS QUOTED A FIGURE THAT WAS ABOUT 25% OF THE ORIGINAL PRICE THE OUTFITTER CHARGED HIM, BEFORE THE PRICE GOT JACKED UP EVEN MORE( IIRC his charter was with Tanzanair).... in the info i referenced earlier about the Tz donated hunts at SCI, DO YOU REALLY THINK $9000 IS REASONABLE FOR A C 208 CHARTER. it better be flying a helluva long way. i don't know where Kilombero North Safaris offers this hunt but i hope it is a long way from Arusha or Dar to justify that sort of fee( donation just states Kilombero Valley).... screw people long enough and sooner or later they realized they are not even getting a kiss out of the deal.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana338:
There are a few charter company's in Tanzania and most outfitters have one they use. You have the right to check to see if you can get a better deal on your flight into the bush.

When the camp is set up, it need to be restocked on a monthly or by-monthly basis...eating old food is for the birds.

So yes the caravan is stocked with your luggage plus supplies for the camp...it is also a mail shuttle between camp and the main office. Usually, soft drinks, beer, wine, liquor, and food items are on your flight for you to enjoy. This is no difference in driving into the bush in South Africa, Or Zimbabwe from what i can see or tell. Tanzania does not a have a good road system, so air it is to most camps.



so do not sell the air shuttle short on resupplying the camp in the bush.

Here's where I see the objection. We all understand that hunting in TZ is more expensive than Zim. A portion of that additional cost is the expense of re-supplying camp compared to the expense of re-supplying a camp in Zim due to remoteness. The items have to be flown in instead of driven in and the distance is further. OK, that's understandable.

However, if the daily rate is, for example, $1,000 per day more in TZ than Zim for a similar hunt, a portion of that $1,000 is the cost of re-supply, correct? You as the client are paying for that re-supply cost in the additional day rate. So, if the charter you arrive on is also carrying the supplies for camp, that you are going to use, does the outfitter pay a portion of the charter, thereby reducing your cost to fly in? If the charter is $9,000 and you are the only client on the plane, you pay the entire amount. If there are 3 clients, you pay $3,000 each instead of the $9,000. So wouldn't the supplies being on the plane with you be similar to another client, therefore the outfitter picks up a portion of the charter cost, since you are already covering that re-supply expense with the higher day rate?

Let's say that of the $1,000 additional day rate over a similar hunt in Zim, $250 per day covers the added expense of operating the camp due to remoteness. If you are on a 21 day hunt, as the client, you are paying $5,250 in re-supply costs alone. If those supplies are on the same plane you charter in on and the charter fee is $9,000, the outfitter should pick up $5,250 and the client $3,750 of the flight? I realize these are not the actual numbers, but what about the concept? Or am I all wet here?

Now, just imagine one going to a luxury hotel, where he is charged some rediculous amount of money just to have a bed to sleep on - because any other activities are charged extra.

You walk into the hotel, and start making notes of how many people are on the payroll

Why are some of you making life so difficult.

You want to go on safari, decide what sort of safari you would like to go.

Do some research on those who are offering those safaris, and make your mind up not on price, but onm who is most likely to offer you what you want.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:
bwanamich,

Having been in the industry for quite some time I am interested to know what your definition of a "Captain" is vs a "pilot"?

Being "captain" of a Carvan is much like being captain of a rowboat. All the stripes and flash worn about a uniform don't make one a "captain".

On the fact that a multi-crew operation is generally safer than a single pilot operation I won't argue. but placing some "meat in the seat" flunky in the right seat and calling the marginally more experienced guy in the left seat is a bit of a stretch.

As far as cost however, having two guys up front is no guarantee that they are being paid more or are safer than one good pilot.

Surestrike,
While the terminology used may not be correct vis a vis captain and pilot, the analogy was meant to distinguish between a pilot with say <1000 hrs vs one with >2000 hrs. In at least 1 charter company I know, the 2 are paid different packages while both of them fly the same plane. So maybe they are Jr captain and Sr captain I don't know. BUt a Charter company that insists that they employ only pilots with >3000hrs on a C208 will most likely be paying more on salaries than another that employs pilots with <1000 looking at earning hrs. That isn't hard to accept now is it?

That same operator that has higher salary costs per hr flown is likely to charge higher rates for the same route.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
You guys from TZ make me laugh. I understand the obvious costs in operating at distant remote locations . That, however, has not much to do with all the government costs and add on. Remember the trophy fee debacle?

Are the operators getting rich? I have no idea. However, I did observe one very well known PH from TZ running around the convention last year like he was some kind of celebrity wearing his sunglasses non-stop. The same PH put up about $80,000 for a new Westley-Richards double. Times must be tough.

I will admit tha the TZ hype appeals to me. Remote. Lots of game, etc etc etc. the reality I have witnessed is that it never lived up to the hype.

The powers that be (government) is making the country a lot less attractive . Just wait to 2013. It will be interesting.

Larry, who says that Ph wasn't born rich? There are quite a few that Ph as a hobby but wouldn't need to work at all for a living

Todd,
Seriously?

So now you will ask your Zim operator to discount you $150 on your road transfer because he is loading the truck with fresh supplies for your safari?

So by the same reasoning, you shouldn't tip your Ph or camp staff as they are being paid to do the job.......... but you do

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Todd,
Seriously?

So now you will ask your Zim operator to discount you $150 on your road transfer because he is loading the truck with fresh supplies for your safari?

So by the same reasoning, you shouldn't tip your Ph or camp staff as they are being paid to do the job.......... but you do

You completely missed the point. Your example here doesn't take into account the driving in of supplies as being the base line cost to operate a camp. In my example, I cited the "air supply" of camp being an "additional" cost to operate the camp in TZ over and above what it costs in Zim to drive them in, and therefore that "additional" cost as being a partial reason for the higher daily rates in TZ. And in my example, I simply attempted to put some logic to how those "additional" costs are accounted for by stating that we, as the client, are already paying for the air re-supply by paying higher daily rates; why should we double pay for air re-supply for picking up the ticket on the entire flight.

Let's put it another way. If I fly in at $9,000 by myself to your camp with no supplies on board, should a re-supply of camp items need to be flown in 10 days later, with no client, will you the operator pay for the $9,000 charter since the only thing on the plane is groceries and such? If so, then when I fly to your camp, by myself, but with the cargo hold full of supplies, shouldn't you and I split the cost of the flight since putting them on my flight saved you the cost of the plane 10 days hence? If you say no, then I might wonder why I should pay at all! I should just be able to hop on your re-supply flight for free, correct? What's good for one should be good for both, no?

If you are attempting to tell us "why" operating in TZ is more expensive than Zim by citing the cost of flying in supplies, then let's break it out for examination. If you are saying that TZ is more expensive to hunt than Zim, "just because it is", well then, I'm fine with that also. I'll continue to hunt where I can afford to get the best value for my money and I doubt very seriously you guys in TZ will be any worse for it!

Without intending to cause offence to anyone, I don't understand what all the fuss is about.

A product such as this costs what it costs and no amount of bleating and whining is going to change anything. If you want the product enough then pay the price and if you don't just go and buy a cheaper product elsewhere....... of which there are plenty.

I'd like to buy a new Rolls Royce but if I went into the dealers and offered a Ford price they'd tell me to bugger off and if I went into a supermarket, filled the trolley and then wanted to haggle when I got to the checkout, they'd also tell me to pay the price or bugger off.

At the end of the day guys, there's no such thing as a free lunch and whether you like it or not, a safari company is a business that has to make a profit so and believe me, the vast majority of working PHs have to look for alternative employment during the off season simply to keep their heads above water.

Oh and before you complain too much about charter costs I suggest you consider the images below which are an illustration of the possible consequences of using a cheap charter........ and then consider if you or your families would prefer you to pay a bit more or to go as cheap as you can.

If all those pictures you showed were a result of FACTUAL maintenance issues, your posit would hold some validity. Conversely, I can produce hundreds of pictures like those where the airframes were maintained by the best professionals in the trade.

If they were the result of pilot error, statistics show that about 80-90% of ALL mishaps result from pilot error. Point being, there is a thin line between the sublime and the ridiculous and obviously poorly maintained airplanes and poorly trained pilots are a recipe for disaster. That said, I am well aware of the maintenance costs and pilot training of African bush pilots and overall with few exceptions, charter costs are a ripoff, and the reason they are is a clientele that thinks and have the means to believe that money drives everything. From there it's simple free market principles.

Jorge

As it happens, I know a fair bit about the pilot, the aircraft and the incident and will be very interested to hear the opinion of you and other far more skilled pilots than I could ever hope to be.

The pilot was and probably still is often known as Captain Chaos and although I have no proof, I was told that he'd been involved in a previous crash a few weeks before and if I remember correctly, I was told it happened in Masailand on landing and I think one was kiiled and another put in a wheelchair for life.

The aircraft had previously been offered to me as a charter and after looking it over, I refused the aircraft, the pilot and the company. The reason being it looked to be very badly maintained with oil leaks, buggered tyres and a few other perhaps less important faults but I thought the faults added up to a flat refusal.

The incident happened when the PH was in the #2 seat and on approach, the pilot announced the flaps wouldn't extend and that he'd have to go in fast and the PH in the #2 seat who I assume had little or no flying experience would have to help with the brakes.

I might be wrong but seem to remember that aircraft type has a standby manual lever for the flaps and can only assume the pilot either forgot or was not aware of that. I also assume the pilot felt it more economical to take a chance and go in fast rather than return to DAR where he'd have a nice, safe long tar runway with full emergency services to land on.

They went in very fast and as I understand it, the #2 was trying to apply the brakes but (I assume) because of lack of knowledge of aircraft brakes was unaware that the foot pedals were not only toe brakes but had other functions as well and consequently was tramping on the pedals for all he was worth which obviously caused the aircraft to go all over the shop and eventually pile up.

I don't know how but thankfully everyone got out alive and for that we should be grateful but they lost absolutely everything including firearms etc.

FWIW, the story of how it happened was related to me by the guys/clients who had been involved/on board a day or two after the incident.

I don't know about you but I'd say that the incident was needless and at the very least largely due to faulty maintenance, pilot error and perhaps lack of an experienced #2........ and however you look at it, entirely preventable.

But I'll bet the charter was a helluva lot cheaper than some of the other companies.

But hey, if some think a cheap charter is a good idea, maybe they're right.......... or maybe not.

I should say that I appreciate your last point and it really boils down to if a hunter feels TZ and it's charters are too pricey then they always have the option to go elsewhere and that's obviously what the TZ Govt/Game Dept feel as well....... which takes us back to my previous post.

quote:

The incident happened when the PH was in the #2 seat and on approach, the pilot announced the flaps wouldn't extend and that he'd have to go in fast and the PH in the #2 seat who I assume had little or no flying experience would have to help with the brakes.

I might be wrong but seem to remember that aircraft type has a standby manual lever for the flaps and can only assume the pilot either forgot or was not aware of that. I also assume the pilot felt it more economical to take a chance and go in fast rather than return to DAR where he'd have a nice, safe long tar runway with full emergency services to land on.

They went in very fast and as I understand it, the #2 was trying to apply the brakes but (I assume) because of lack of knowledge of aircraft brakes was unaware that the foot pedals were not only toe brakes but had other functions as well and consequently was tramping on the pedals for all he was worth which obviously caused the aircraft to go all over the shop and eventually pile up.

Shakari,

If your recollections are correct the pilot was indeed a mucking foron. You do NOT EVER go into a short unimproved strip with a flap malfunction. Plain and simple you go somewhere with a nice long runway land, and have flaps fixed or get another airplane. Plain and simple stupidity/incompetence on the pilots part.

That airplane looks to have been either a piper Navajo or a Cheiften I am not aware of either having an "alternate' flap extension system, I could be wrong as I don't have much time in either, but I really don't think so.

In any case I wouldn't even DREAM of going into a bush strip with no flaps. It is beyond bad judgement and bordering on criminal stupidity to do so.

BTW the pilot is able to deliver full brake pressure from either set of brake pedals so asking somebody to "help" with the brakes is moronic and the mere fact that the "pilot" would suggest such a maneuver tells me that he was in fact unqualified, ignorant, and dangerous.

All of that is ASSUMING that you got the story right.

The proper and ONLY course of action in a case like this is to divert to a strip with an adequate runway and have a mechanic solve the flap issue.

Those are some spooky photos!

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

quote:

The incident happened when the PH was in the #2 seat and on approach, the pilot announced the flaps wouldn't extend and that he'd have to go in fast and the PH in the #2 seat who I assume had little or no flying experience would have to help with the brakes.

I might be wrong but seem to remember that aircraft type has a standby manual lever for the flaps and can only assume the pilot either forgot or was not aware of that. I also assume the pilot felt it more economical to take a chance and go in fast rather than return to DAR where he'd have a nice, safe long tar runway with full emergency services to land on.

They went in very fast and as I understand it, the #2 was trying to apply the brakes but (I assume) because of lack of knowledge of aircraft brakes was unaware that the foot pedals were not only toe brakes but had other functions as well and consequently was tramping on the pedals for all he was worth which obviously caused the aircraft to go all over the shop and eventually pile up.

Shakari,

If your recollections are correct the pilot was indeed a mucking foron. You do NOT EVER go into a short unimproved strip with a flap malfunction. Plain and simple you go somewhere with a nice long runway land, and have flaps fixed or get another airplane. Plain and simple stupidity/incompetence on the pilots part.

That airplane looks to have been either a piper Navajo or a Cheiften I am not aware of either having an "alternate' flap extension system, I could be wrong as I don't have much time in either, but I really don't think so.

In any case I wouldn't even DREAM of going into a bush strip with no flaps. It is beyond bad judgement and bordering on criminal stupidity to do so.

BTW the pilot is able to deliver full brake pressure from either set of brake pedals so asking somebody to "help" with the brakes is moronic and the mere fact that the "pilot" would suggest such a maneuver tells me that he was in fact unqualified, ignorant, and dangerous.

All of that is ASSUMING that you got the story right.

The proper and ONLY course of action in a case like this is to divert to a strip with an adequate runway and have a mechanic solve the flap issue.

One again, spot on comments.

Land on the longest, improved strip available with a flap malfunction and there is no need for "help" on the brakes.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:


Surestrike,
While the terminology used may not be correct vis a vis captain and pilot, the analogy was meant to distinguish between a pilot with say <1000 hrs vs one with >2000 hrs. In at least 1 charter company I know, the 2 are paid different packages while both of them fly the same plane. So maybe they are Jr captain and Sr captain I don't know. BUt a Charter company that insists that they employ only pilots with >3000hrs on a C208 will most likely be paying more on salaries than another that employs pilots with <1000 looking at earning hrs. That isn't hard to accept now is it?

That same operator that has higher salary costs per hr flown is likely to charge higher rates for the same route.

Bwanamich,

I understand what you are trying to say. In simple terms the better charter outfits are going to have the most qualified/experienced pilots.

There is no magical experience level in general aviation that designates someone a "captain" vs a "pilot", and wearing stripes and a uniform does not make one more qualified. Many charter operators require a "captains" uniform to give the appearance of experience and build confidence in the passengers eyes. Anytime I see it being worn in a small airplane I immediately think "what's this outfit trying to cover up for"?

Just as an example, at your average US major airline to be hired as a Jr. first officer you'll have between 4,000 and 8,000 hours flying time on average of which a large portion will have been as pilot in command or Aircraft commander for you military guys. You'll then spend 10 to 15 years as a first officer before being able to upgrade to a Jr. captain position on a narrow body jet like a 737 or an A-320 or similar sized jet. In my initial captains upgrade class the average flight time was somewhere in the 10,000 to 15,000 hour range.

If a guy is a wide body Captain on something like a 767,777 or a 747 you can bet he's got close to twenty years of line service at that airline and is well into the 20,000 hour range in flight time. An airline captain is responsible for a multimillion dollar machine in many cases a machine that is approaching the 100 million dollar mark in value. He or she is responsible for hundreds of lives in the airplane and or multiple millions of dollars worth of freight and commerce and untold billions of dollars worth of liability each and every time that he or she signs an aircraft release. That same captain will have undergone multiple training and checking events every year, year after year, both in the aircraft on the line and in a simulator partaking in multiple systems failures/ fires/ cabin decompression/ any number of emergency procedures and a bevy of decision making drills to include deviations due to weather, maintenance, passenger issues, security threats, legality issues ETC ETC. The list goes on and on. I don't think the average airline passenger has any idea what it takes to maintain currency and proficiency as an airline pilot at a major airline.

Someone who has earned the right and put in time to be in command of such an aircraft is someone who I consider be a "Captain".

Surestrike & Todd

I'm 99.9% sure I do have the facts more or less right and as I said (and you both confirmed) the sensible thing to do would have been to go back to DAR and land of the tar runway there and take advantage of the emergency services that are on standby but I'd bet the reason he didn't want to do that was because he'd then have have to pay for the extra fuel to take the clients back to the strip again so he thought it cheaper to try for a fast landing........ and that Gentlemen is why I never trust a cheap charter.

I guess I have about 50 other pics of the same incident and some are almost distressing....... I reckon the only thing that got those guys out alive was the military training they'd had some years before when they'd be taught to react to an emergency situation bloody quickly and helluva efficiently!

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Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Todd,
Seriously?

So now you will ask your Zim operator to discount you $150 on your road transfer because he is loading the truck with fresh supplies for your safari?

So by the same reasoning, you shouldn't tip your Ph or camp staff as they are being paid to do the job.......... but you do

You completely missed the point. Your example here doesn't take into account the driving in of supplies as being the base line cost to operate a camp. In my example, I cited the "air supply" of camp being an "additional" cost to operate the camp in TZ over and above what it costs in Zim to drive them in, and therefore that "additional" cost as being a partial reason for the higher daily rates in TZ. And in my example, I simply attempted to put some logic to how those "additional" costs are accounted for by stating that we, as the client, are already paying for the air re-supply by paying higher daily rates; why should we double pay for air re-supply for picking up the ticket on the entire flight.

Let's put it another way. If I fly in at $9,000 by myself to your camp with no supplies on board, should a re-supply of camp items need to be flown in 10 days later, with no client, will you the operator pay for the $9,000 charter since the only thing on the plane is groceries and such? If so, then when I fly to your camp, by myself, but with the cargo hold full of supplies, shouldn't you and I split the cost of the flight since putting them on my flight saved you the cost of the plane 10 days hence? If you say no, then I might wonder why I should pay at all! I should just be able to hop on your re-supply flight for free, correct? What's good for one should be good for both, no?

If you are attempting to tell us "why" operating in TZ is more expensive than Zim by citing the cost of flying in supplies, then let's break it out for examination. If you are saying that TZ is more expensive to hunt than Zim, "just because it is", well then, I'm fine with that also. I'll continue to hunt where I can afford to get the best value for my money and I doubt very seriously you guys in TZ will be any worse for it!

Todd,

Ok get your point. I do not believe I have personally stated that food supplies are being flown in in TZ as a reason why operating costs are higher here than elsewhere. Others may have suggested that as a reason. I personally consider food supplies to be similar in Tz to other countries. Dry foods and beverage is usually sent by road in bulk with 1 mid-season re-supply and only fresh and perishable sent in with the flight.

Other operating items like fuel, equipment, vehicle spares, etc are more likely to be part of the reason of higher operating costs.

Charter prices in Tanzania are higher because. There is a customer base who are willing and able to pay a higher premium to hunt Tanzania. Therefore the charter operators also can charge more for a somewhat captive audience.

BTW the air charter business is another that you don't find to many millionaires being made. These guys are providing a good service with nice airplanes and are trying to make as much money as they can. Just like you or I would be doing if we were running the same business there. There are no magical hidden costs in Tanzania that make these charters twice or three times more expensive than other places. The supply of willing and able customers is there and it is being exploited. That's the reason Tanzanian charters are what they are period!

It kind of reminds me of a conversation I heard once while flying bush in Alaska. A couple of guys were trying to negotiate down a charter to some prime sheep country. After a bit one of the hunters finally asked if there were any other options available to which the pilot said you've got two options here. You can fly in with me which takes about an hour and costs this much. OR you start walking you should be there in about 6 weeks, your choice.

The aircraft was a Piper PA31-350 according to this and I think that makes it a Navajo?

I don't know if they have a manual/emergency flap control and hopefully one you experienced pilots can comment but I have a vague idea they did have....... could very easily be wrong on that though.

My own experience is mostly limited to things like Cessnas, Kitfoxes and a bit on the R22 and I was bloody useless on all of them which is why I gave it up before I killed myself or some other bugger!

quote:

My own experience is mostly limited to things like Cessnas, Kitfoxes and a bit on the R22 and I was bloody useless on all of them which is why I gave it up before I killed myself or some other bugger!

Steve,

You will never die before your time is up.

When I remember some of the idiotic things we did in our younger days, it really is a wonder that I am still alive!

The number of times my father used to say "have you been trying to kill yourself again?"