I hate to say it but don't expect prices to drop either....... I wouldn't be in the least surprised if the TZ Govt & GD hiked their prices again soon after Botswana closes.

I wonder how the new 2013 concession fees are going to be absorbed, especially those "hot" blocks which are leased for $65,000/year and the trophy fees which are apparently going up dramatically (Lion & Elephant)?

Will this herald the beginning of the end of hunting in TZ?

it has become blatantly apparent that when ALL costs are factored in, Tz has now become a destination exclusively for people with a LOT of money. in another year or two, no longer will the above average income hunter be able go there. when buffalo hunts cost well over $30,000, most( although obviously not all) people will go elsewhere. the same buffalo can be hunted a LOT cheaper elsewhere. why should a charter flight cost 20 plus% of the hunt cost? sooner or later the goose can't lay anymore golden eggs...

Mate, Tanzania has pretty much always been an expensive hunting destination and always will be.

They know they have some of the best true wilderness hunting in Africa and know how desireable that is to hunters and whether we like it or not, will always charge accordingly.

What they need to do though is improve the system to make it run more smoothly, fairly and efficiently and get a proper grip on the poaching etc because if they don't do that then they're going to lose their reputation of being the Mecca of African hunting and if that happens, they'll lose the demand etc.

i hunted in the Selous about -8-9 years ago along the Kilombero River in a concession used by Adam Clements, subleased from Pano Calavrios. since then i have hunted in Bots, Moz.(twice), and Namibia. i saw A LOT MORE DG as well as other stuff in EVERY OTHER PLACE!!! can't speak to western Tz., but i certainly think the Selous is FAR over priced... no way would i EVER pay TZ prices again to hunt animals that can be hunted with equal( or better) success and a lot less money elsewhere- especially when you consider the raping that occurs with charter flights.

Then we've probably hunted the same area at some point...... I hunted that block many years ago when Pano ran it himself and used to drive everyone crazy with his bloody radio calls.

FWIW, the Frankfurt Zoological Society studies tell us that Tanzania has more cape buffalo than all of the rest of southern and east Africa combined and that other game populations are often close to or in a similar situation...... and that's why Tanzania is generally acknowledged to be the Mecca of African hunting and why the TZ Govt think they can charge what they do for the hunting.

As for the charter costs, yes, I guess they are high but I don't think it's all simply down to profiteering. Cost of running those aircraft up there must be astronomical. For example, unless things have changed, the major inspections etc can't be done in Tz at all and every aircraft has to be flown to the neighbouring country every time and one needs to remember that you're not paying just for a charter, you're paying for a safe and legal charter and all those additional costs need to be taken into account or the charter companies would go bust.

I agree with you that the TZ charter costs are very expensive but not that it's all down to profiteering and nothing else.

Charter Costs have killed at least two bookings in Tanzania for me!! My only hunt in Tanzania might be the Northern Species where you drive into camp from Mt. Killy airport,.. I doubt if I am the only hold out?? AND, yes I can afford it, it is the PRINCIPLE of the CHARGES!!
Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I think this is an extremely valid question and all too often ignored.

I have been to Zim the last 4 years where I had to charter. We have had 3 problems on 8 legs. One of these involved the plane hitting an impala upon landing. Not much can be done about that. However, the other 2 concern me.

In 2010, after taxiing to the end of the bush runway, the pilot had a strange look on his face. He turned to me and advised that we could not fly. The rudder (or whatever it is called) was locked up. This plane had just been serviced. Hmmmmmmmm..... Glad that happened on the ground.

This year while taxiing, some bolts broke in the steering mechanism rendering the plane unusable. I am glad that happened while taxiing rather than landing.

In the final analysis, I make a judgment about whether I trust the pilot. I figure most don't want to die no more than I do.

Larry,

In both cases your pilot caught it before it became a problem. He was doing his job well. But just calm your fears a bit. The rudder being jammed is a problem but far from unsurvivable, especially in a single engine airplane. The steering issue with Cessna products.....I know all about that one friggin C-206's and 207's are infamous for their weak nose wheel steering however when it happens it's not a safety issue in the least it is primarily a nuisance. The airplane can still be controlled on the ground through use of differential braking, not the smoothest but it will get you home until it can be fixed.

Just a big picture FYI to let you know that neither one of your mechanical issues were life threatening or even that serious in the scheme of things that can go wrong.

Mechanical things that will kill you on a small aircraft are a serious engine or cabin fire, a serious structural failure (usually the result of diving inverted at high speed out of control out the bottom of a thunderstorm causing the wings or tail to break off.), or a prop blade failure/ separation. All of which except dumb asses flying into thunderstorms are exceptionally rares occurrences. DA's flying into thunderstorms are generally done by inexperienced pilots trying to get home when they should be waiting out the weather. You won't find to many if any professional level pilots getting themselves into that situation.

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
Charter Costs have killed at least two bookings in Tanzania for me!! My only hunt in Tanzania might be the Northern Species where you drive into camp from Mt. Killy airport,.. I doubt if I am the only hold out?? AND, yes I can afford it, it is the PRINCIPLE of the CHARGES!!
Cheers

SCREW ME ONCE- SHAME ON YOU. SCREW ME TWICE, SHAME ON ME( FOR BEING STUPD ENOUGH TO GO BACK FOR SECONDS). i flatly don't believe planes cost more to operate in Tz. than elsewhere in Africa. i am sure that Bwanamich and fuguhutu will say i am wrong but i don't believe it!! it's essentially the same as TZ. hunt costs in general- the government there thinks that all hunters are a bunch of rich white guys who will pay anything to hunt there- therefore jack up the fees and to hell with the future. sooner or later you price yourselves out of the market. a day of reckoning may well be coming. it is unfortunate that the outfitters are the ones to pay for the government's stupidity....

jdollar:

The charter companies do not have a separate pricing schedule for local residents, tourists or businessmen, nor are there "off-season" prices either.
The only way you can get a cheaper rate is through a shared flight.

Seeing I am somehow related to one of the long established charter operators, I shall try obtaining some figures to back up the argument on operating costs.

I am a qualified commercial pilot, in both multi engine fixed wings and helicopters.

I have flown many times in charter planes in both Zimbabwe and Tanzania, and appart from one of our planes - we had two on that trip, and this happened to the one I wasn't in.

A vulture hit the plane just of the tail. It made a big dent in it, but no serious damage was done.

I have to agree that I think they hose you in TZ. While costs can vary from country to country, why would TZ be a multiple of the cost in Zim? Why do they refuse to fly smaller less expensive planes to some fairly far away areas while insisting on a caravan ?

These costs contribute to my reluctance to go back to TZ. Argentina is getting to be as bad.

i did a google search on petrol/gas prices in Tz vs. Zim. as of last week( i figure the biggest recurring expense in a charter operation is gas). i doubt pilot salaries will be significantly different and parts are being shipped in from Europe/US. at similar cost. guess what?? the average Dar price was $1.26/liter and the average overall Zim price was $1.44/liter. av gas is obviously more expensive but the cost ratio should be constant. these figures were in the local currency and converted to UD $. SO- why are charters at least twice as expensive when comparable numbers of flying hours are considered?
answer- captive audience over a barrel.

JD,

I can see your point and to some extent, don't disagree but as I said previously, the maintenance costs for a start are very different.

If an Zim based aircraft needs inspection/overhaul etc, it can just be taken to RSA which in flying terms is just a hop, skip and a jump away. If a Dar based aircraft needs the same, it probably has to be taken to Nairobbery which is considerably further and even once there, spares will be harder and more expensive to get than in RSA.

It's not all of the answer but it is part of it.

In such discussions one has to always compare apples to apples or else its all pointless.....

Age of aircraft, type of aircraft, quality/experience of pilot used (ie are you using a "pilot" or a "captain" to fly your planes?), one or two captains/pilots (Some charter companies use 2 pilots/captains as a standard policy on caravan's for eg), INSURANCE, MAINTENANCE SCHEDULES, etc all have an impact on final cost/hr. So a company can operate a caravan at say $750/hr and another at $1000+/hr cost to company?

Like hotels, car rentals, etc you have "categories" of charter operators as well.

One thing is for sure, small commercial planes in the 182/206 range are no longer an option in TZ. 95% of charter operator's fleets consist of Caravan's so options are limited even if there is just one of you having to charter!

I know that if I had to fly in an African country to a remote bush location, I would rather do so in a relatively new caravan with a "solid" looking pilot than an ancient 206 with an "appie" at the controls.

What you all are saying is no doubt true. It proves the point. I am told by someone who was just there that the charter from Arusha to Lukwati and back is $15,000! They forced you to fly in a Caravan.

It is a long way no doubt but $15,000 is a hell of a lot of money to add onto already high daily rates . One has almost $100,000 into the hunt before they ever reach camp (including airfare). Gentlemen, that is total insanity.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
In such discussions one has to always compare apples to apples or else its all pointless.....

Age of aircraft, type of aircraft, quality/experience of pilot used (ie are you using a "pilot" or a "captain" to fly your planes?), one or two captains/pilots (Some charter companies use 2 pilots/captains as a standard policy on caravan's for eg), INSURANCE, MAINTENANCE SCHEDULES, etc all have an impact on final cost/hr. So a company can operate a caravan at say $750/hr and another at $1000+/hr cost to company?

Like hotels, car rentals, etc you have "categories" of charter operators as well.

One thing is for sure, small commercial planes in the 182/206 range are no longer an option in TZ. 95% of charter operator's fleets consist of Caravan's so options are limited even if there is just one of you having to charter!

I know that if I had to fly in an African country to a remote bush location, I would rather do so in a relatively new caravan with a "solid" looking pilot than an ancient 206 with an "appie" at the controls.

While all you describe above is no doubt true, when I used to fly these:


The cost per hour when the jets were retired in 2008 was about 1000/hr. I've mentined this before, but the one thing that kept me from hunting with a well-known operator in northern Zim was the ridiculously high price of 3500 for a charter from Harare to Pedza. I fully realize Safari hunting tends to be above my paygrade, but 15K is beyond ridiculous. jorge

I am reminded of a business trip I took to a cold location. In my infinite wisdom, I left my coat at home. I went to a local mall and promptly spotted an acceptable coat . I guessed it would cost $500-$750. The coat fit perfectly. I checked the tag. It was $8,999! I was shocked.

I pulled out my black AMEX card and showed it to the clerk. I told her that I wanted her to know that I could afford it. However, I didn't get that way by doing stupid things like buy that coat at that price.

I feel exactly the same way about TZ. Plus, I have never had a safari there that was as good as my trips to the Save which is half the price or less.

Good luck with those sky high charter prices gentlemen. For $15,000, I can fly business class to Harare AND pay for my charter to and from the Save.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I pulled out my black AMEX card and showed it to the clerk. I told her that I wanted her to know that I could afford it. However, I didn't get that way by doing stupid things like buy that coat at that price.
I feel exactly the same way about TZ...Good luck with those sky high charter prices gentlemen. For $15,000, I can fly business class to Harare AND pay for my charter to and from the Save.

I cannot presently afford TZ nor a several thousand dollar coat. However, someday I will be able to because I will never pay for something that fails to offer good value. Absent the desire for certain game like Gerenuk or Lesser Kudu, if i can hunt Zim or Namibia for a fraction of the price of TZ and also avoid an air charter (or in some cases just rent a car) in order to hunt the same species...why the Hell would I pay for TZ????

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores

I pulled out my black AMEX card

Wow, a BLACK Amex card, I thought those were like Sasquatch sightings! , no wonder I can't afford TZ and charters me with a lowly Platinum...

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
In such discussions one has to always compare apples to apples or else its all pointless.....

Age of aircraft, type of aircraft, quality/experience of pilot used (ie are you using a "pilot" or a "captain" to fly your planes?), one or two captains/pilots (Some charter companies use 2 pilots/captains as a standard policy on caravan's for eg), INSURANCE, MAINTENANCE SCHEDULES, etc all have an impact on final cost/hr. So a company can operate a caravan at say $750/hr and another at $1000+/hr cost to company?

Like hotels, car rentals, etc you have "categories" of charter operators as well.

One thing is for sure, small commercial planes in the 182/206 range are no longer an option in TZ. 95% of charter operator's fleets consist of Caravan's so options are limited even if there is just one of you having to charter!

I know that if I had to fly in an African country to a remote bush location, I would rather do so in a relatively new caravan with a "solid" looking pilot than an ancient 206 with an "appie" at the controls.

how does one know in advance( or even on arrival), the age of the aircraft, maintenance schedule, insurance cost, "solid" looking pilot versus appie(i really would love to know that one), "pilot vs. captain"?? the outfitter arranges the charter and that's that... a perusal of the responses hear pretty much say it all and what is says is that hunters aren't too fond of getting screwed.

I'll keep going to TZ as long as it remains the best destination and I can afford it. The "bargain" of TZ, IMHO, is muultiple buffalo; assuming you like buffalo.

And I'll never try to go with the lowest bidder on a charter. Someone said they want value. I do to, but that's not the place to scrimp.

IIRC, you can shoot multiple buffalo anywhere as long as you pay additional trophy fee and arrange the quota in advance. and since the TZ outfitter arranges the charter how do you have any idea before you arrive what you will be getting? no outfitter in any country is going to use a service he doesn't trust- dead clients are bad for business...

I just shot 4 buff and 2 elephants in the Save. I think I had $66,000 into it including charter. Compare that to TZ.

SHOULDN'T BE MORE THAN $150,000!

Jdollar- you ask very specific questions of the Outfitter about the equipment and pilots. If you don't get the answers then get him to refer you directly to the Charter company....then call them and talk with the owner, or Director of OPS. Get satisfactory answers to your satisfaction or go elsewhere.
Age of equipment & make/model is very important and will tell you a lot about the operations, ie well funded or buying old stuff to get by....ie there are the old Cessnas- 80's vintage, ie 206/207's and there are current-2000 and later manufacture. Most of the Twins in use are quite old, ie Piper-Navajo, and Cessna 411, 414, 421's etc...and remember, if pilots are not well trained, two engines generally only extend the point of impact...and usually NOT in control, if not handled correctly!
In defense of the charter operators selecting Cessna Caravans, they are Turbine powered and have VERY FEW failures and handle high altitudes of Africa much better than piston aircraft. They cost over $1Million USED, burn over 30 gph (VS 15GPH IN 206) at cruise but can handle a big load and handle like a light Cessna 206, easy to fly!!
Then question PH or operator about pilots- are they x-military, or airline pilots or Air Transport Pilot (ATP- US term) qualified, AND how many years of bush flying and how many hours, in type they will be flying and total time. Remember, bush flying is VERY different than military or airline flying...ie mostly unimproved airport and high and hot....with pistons...not turbines. HUGE difference!!...no co-pilots and no Dispatchers to handle "issues".
I generally always ask if thier pilots are South Africans....if not, I am hesitant!...ask more questions until I am satisfied, or go elsewhere, either charter company....or COUNTRY for my hunts!!
I don't think two pilots is really a big safety factor...pilots don't die very often in the saddle!!...and the second is generally a junior collecting flying time for a Captains seat!!
Hope this is helpful....
Cheers

If one books with a reputable outfitter, and do not go into cutting corners at every stage of the negotiations process, one should not worry about charter safety in Tanzania.

I would rather pay a reasonable price and fly in a Caravan operated by a quality operator, rather than try and fly in a smaller plane operated by someone trying to get into this market and make a quick buck.

quote:

Originally posted by surestrike:

And don't be one of these guys... If I had a quarter for every A-type Dr./Lawyer/Corporate executive/trust fund baby, who tried to push/threaten/bribe me when I refused to fly due to weather, performance or mechanical issues I'd be on the fortune 500 list today or more likely dead. If a pilot says no it means NO it's not open to discussion. Don't be an A-type pushy A-hole when it comes to traveling in light or even heavy aircraft for that matter. If I cancel or delay even today flying a jumbo jet there is a very good reason and it has nothing to do with me trying to ruin your vacation. In fact quite the opposite.

Good advice.

I learned this lesson back in my 20s when I thought my boss was a big pussy for not wanting to fly to King Salmon just because he thought the pilot was unsafe.

The weekend before I was supposed to hunt said pilot flew over the pass between King Salmon and Anchorage; another one refused to go, citing bad weather.

The guy made it over the pass, but killed himself the next day when he tried to land at night on a sand strip. Turned out to be the Egigik River.

I have huge heartburn with Caravans as well.

I have hunted TZ four times; not sure when I will again.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
I just shot 4 buff and 2 elephants in the Save. I think I had $66,000 into it including charter. Compare that to TZ.

Very good point Larry!

agree with all of you who say TZ charters are expensive........ but how is this the fault of the hunting operator as some suggest?

JD it seems that you believe the TZ charter operators have a hard on for hunters and are simply looking at screwing them with their rates. I assure you that even a non hunter pays the same rate

Larry, the Save is not comparable to any remote wilderness area in TZ when it comes to operating costs this could explain the 15% -20% lower cost for a similar hunt.

15-20%???? Try 50%.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
agree with all of you who say TZ charters are expensive........ but how is this the fault of the hunting operator as some suggest?

JD it seems that you believe the TZ charter operators have a hard on for hunters and are simply looking at screwing them with their rates. I assure you that even a non hunter pays the same rate

Larry, the Save is not comparable to any remote wilderness area in TZ when it comes to operating costs this could explain the 15% -20% lower cost for a similar hunt.

i don't think the charter services are simply out to screw the hunters- THEY ARE OUT TO SCREW EVERYBODY!! i have often wondered why some enterprising Tz outfitters haven't pooled resources and started their own charter service, catering to the hunting trade but also open to anyone. seems there is money to be made by undercutting the established charter companies by charging less and having a captive audience. i simply do not believe that the current profit margin is not "sky" high. charter companies everywhere else in Southern Africa seem to get by whiling charging a LOT less

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:

i have often wondered why some enterprising Tz outfitters haven't pooled resources and started their own charter service, catering to the hunting trade but also open to anyone. seems there is money to be made by undercutting the established charter companies by charging less and having a captive audience. i simply do not believe that the current profit margin is not "sky" high. charter companies everywhere else in Southern Africa seem to get by whiling charging a LOT less

I was thinking the same thing. Or why some enterprising young buck with an airframe and powerplant ticket doesnt set up shop to service the charter aircraft locally.
I doubt I will ever hunt Tanzania because of the costs, but have been following this thread with interest. For kicks I called the school where I did my flight training where the owner also does some charter work and got pricing. Granted this is in the states but the rate for a Cessna 206 with pilot (the owner) was $375/hr. Surley he has to factor in the costs for maintenance, insurance, pilot, etc into his hourly rate just as the TZ charter companies do. I saw one TZ company that said their hourly cost on a 206 was $1,400. That is impressive!

Larry,
for $80k you can get a FULL BAG hunt in TZ no worries, with over 40 species of gme including lion and leopard. That's 20% more than your Save hunt

Adam, ask the rate for a C208B aircraft. As mentioned i doubt the very few C206 available in Tz would be much more than $400/hr. The $1400/hr rate you heard must have been offered to a mining or Gas org who are throwing money around like its free in this country

BM:

My $66,000 included trophy fees for 4 buff, 1 elephant and misc plains game as well as charter. I have seen $80,000 or higher for daily rates only in TZ.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwanamich:
Larry,
for $80k you can get a FULL BAG hunt in TZ no worries, with over 40 species of gme including lion and leopard. That's 20% more than your Save hunt

Adam, ask the rate for a C208B aircraft. As mentioned i doubt the very few C206 available in Tz would be much more than $400/hr. The $1400/hr rate you heard must have been offered to a mining or Gas org who are throwing money around like its free in this country

please enlighten me where $80,000 will cover a full bag 21 day safari- INCLUDING TROPHY FEES, CHARTER AND ALL THE OTHER MISC FEES THAT ARE SO PREVALENT THERE(anti poaching fee, conservation fee, community development fee, hunting license fee, gun import fee, etc.).. and quite a number of outfitters require a 28 day hunt to take lion AND leopard plus buffalo. i would love to know who offers an all in lion, leopard, buffalo, and elephant hunt( which to me is a FULL BAG HUNT) for $80,000.

+1!!!!!!!

TGT and Tommy Freidkin from Texas has their own Air Force in TZ.....they might even set the standard??!!

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by 470EDDY:
TGT and Tommy Freidkin from Texas has their own Air Force in TZ.....they might even set the standard??!!

Cheers

Someone might just answer you on that one