quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Look at the video again in slow motion.That is not dirt it is muzzle blast.It is not there in the second vid is it?

Please post the link. I saw both videos, and AIR, I thought: "Dang, this guy is in denial."

Please re-post. I am wrong about 50% of the time.....

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Look at the video again in slow motion.That is not dirt it is muzzle blast.It is not there in the second vid is it?

Please post the link. I saw both videos, and AIR, I thought: "Dang, this guy is in denial."

Please re-post. I am wrong about 50% of the time.....

How about you post one of your buffs?

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
How about you post one of your buffs?

I don't have any video. I would be happy to post photos, but I don't know what a couple of pictures of dead Makuti buff would prove.

Shoot, if I post photos, for all you know I used a 677 Super Smasher and substituted a 375 for the photo op.

Why not post the pics anyway? It would be nice to see them regardless of what you used to shoot.

I had a PH tell me about two Mexican clients hunting with him.

One was using a 375 H&H and one was using a 458 Winchester Magnum.

They shot a buffalo - apparently they like to back up each other.

Both their shots were not quite in the right place, and they proceeded to put a total of 27 rounds into that bull before he died!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Why not post the pics anyway? It would be nice to see them regardless of what you used to shoot.

I will have to scan them as they are pre-digital.

BTW anyone who says that you didn't shoot into the dirt is FOS.
Shootaway's dirt shooting video: link.

On my first safari, I went to Lokasali in Tanzania. At the hotel in Arusha, we met the out oming hunter. He ha few drinks under his elt, but in all seriousness he told my wife "Don't go, there is death around every corner".

Turns out they had hunted all the dangerous game and were out after a warthog. The big guns were left at home. A buffalo wounded from a previous client charged out of a korongo, and hit the truck.
They went back to camp and gathered up the big guns. A 500, a 470 and a couple of 375's. After getting on the bull again, it was a running gun battle with the buffalo being hit 14 times before he gave up the ghost. The video shows Ridge taking off his ball cap and going "whooo", a major stress relief.

That Bwana, was my and my wife's welcome to Africa. I will always respect the cape buffalo.

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Moja:
Could it be that the legend of this distinguished member of the Big Five, is actually greater than the reality?

This is a terrible question for anyone to ask, and I can't express strongly enough my disappointment that you, Bwana Moja, would venture such a proposition – or that Saeed would allow it to go uncensored.

Speculating as to whether or not the Black Death (as he is referred to in any conversation I have with friends, co-workers, relatives, and innocent passers-by on the street) that I have successfully hunted and survived (killing two of the most ferocious Africa has ever produced) is anything less than the devil on hooves is ... well, it's bad form is what it is.

Safari hunting is fundamentally a romantic adventure for most of us, and as with all romance much of the emotion, anticipation, and consummation is purely a mental concoction; were reality to intrude upon the process, much of the magic becomes ephemeral, vanishing like a wisp of camp smoke. We go to Africa to become the men (and women) we dreamed we would be as little boys (and girls), and matching wits with the Black Death is an early memory for me. Why? Because he was the unlikely but oft cited 'most dangerous of the dangerous', the very personification of Dangerous Game.

The fact that the two Black Deaths that I valiantly - if not heroically - dispatched died relatively quickly in no way discounts the near certainty that they were verging on a full-on charge, but for the fact that their black hearts gave out prematurely. In fact, only recently the mounted head of one of my Black Deaths fell from its wall mount, its horn glancing my shoulder narrowly missing my jugular, demonstrating that, even in death, these creatures represent unfathomable danger to the hunter.

Please, I beg of you and all the others out there bent on maliciously redefining the unambiguous danger that is hunting the Black Death, please instead focus your attention on subjects more worthy of diminishing their true hazard. Things like nuclear IED dismantling, lava surfing, or preparing Sarah Palin for a debate on national security. Thank you.

[By the way, it's awfully nice to see you back on the board, Moja. You've been missed.]

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:

[By the way, it's awfully nice to see you back on the board, Moja. You've been missed.]

+1

Oh you are too funny Kim! Yeah, you gotta watch out for those falling trophies. Like Ruark said, 'It's the Dead Ones That'll Kill Ya.'

You'd be proud of me. I shot a rifle this week! It was good to get one in my hands after several months of no practice. I think I still know what I'm doing, even if it did take me awhile to find the safety. Oh Well.

Funny thing in hunting. We all have our own weaknesses. Mine seems to be warthogs. The buffs seem to go down pretty easily, but those warthogs, damn.

To me those are the toughest dudes on earth. You know how a hunter defines toughness in an animal don't you? It's all based on how bad we flub the first shot! I can't get a buffalo to charge me regardless of what I do, but I sure as hell got a warthog to do so.

I guess that makes him "Gray Death." Just think maybe one day, I'll come out with a new video. "Greatest Warthog Charges."

quote:

Originally posted by Bwana Moja:
Isn't it just like every other African animal? Meaning, shoot him in the shoulder or put the bullet in the vitals and he's pretty much dead.

Just watch Saeed's Mount Elgai Buffalo and try to over-rate it (vid is large and downloads painstakingly slow - but well worth it):

http://www.accuratereloading.com/2009/2010buf8.wmv

...then try all those shots on Eland and see what happens

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Why not post the pics anyway? It would be nice to see them regardless of what you used to shoot.

I will have to scan them as they are pre-digital.

BTW anyone who says that you didn't shoot into the dirt is FOS.
Shootaway's dirt shooting video: link.

That is a nice video isn't it? I did some scanning myself.I can understand your view not having the clear original video and the slow motion option that I have.If you had the video that I have you might see it different.Although still not clear you can make out the gases all the way to the muzzle along the red lines.[URL= ]second shot[/URL]

Marc, et al,

I've shot 9 Buffs. Had one serious charge, one run off to be anchored later and have had them drop where they stand...

Saeed has by far the most experience and offered up some seriously good wisdom on the subject.

Here's another way to look at this:

I live out here in cattle country and have been working livestock for the better part of my adult life. It is well known in cowboy circles that once a cow / bull gets past the point of return they are nearly impossible to stop- less killing them. A vet friend of mine once told me that this "rage" is caused by a super-charged adrenaline dump - typical in all bovines.

There are many stories out here about the "pet" cow / bull that simply went bezerk - lots of folks have died as a result of being too confident around livestock...same goes for Cape Buffalo...They have every charastic of domestic cattle PLUS a lifetime fighting and survival skills AND the genetics of thousands of years of survival.

One bad move and that "Black Quail" will put you in the company of those before that have succombed to the wrath of this mighty beast!

Stay on your game and don't let yourself think for a milisecond that the Cape Buffalo won't put an end to your party - he will! If you aren't a bit nervous when moving in on a Buffalo, you should give up the sport before it gives you a lesson in who's bigger and badder!

Hold'r steady and pray that your shot provides a swift and humane kill...Otherwise...

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:
Guy's

Interesting thread, I feel there are two distinctive types of buffalo hunting. Offensive and defensive. Mojo and Saeed are defensive hunters. They are truly remarkable marksman and tend to shoot scoped rifles at a distance.

I and a bunch of others on these boards are Offensive buffalo hunters, getting close by choice and getting inside their personal space.
We choose heavier slower bullets, usually iron sights.

I have shot buffalo with my .500NE six times on one shoulder, all killing shots while he just stood there like I was hitting him with a .17 Remington fireball..

Logically, a buffalo shot with an acceptable firearm at say 100 yards with a scope hit proper, will probably lay down and die as or before you get to him.

Two styles, both fine just different.

Dang opinions, everyone's got one.

Steve

defensive hunting = DG sniping

Its not that they arent hard to kill , its that you need to give them the respect they deserve and hit the in the right spot with a BIG peace of lead.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

quote:

I'll admit I've lost a few

I don't know what that is supposed to mean.

Buff are pretty easy to kill assuming you shoot them where you are suppose to. Wounded they are the toughest and probably the most dangerous of the big 5.

Thinking they are easy could get you an ass-whipping, or an ass removal, someday.

Will you took the words right out of my mouth! As far as I'm concerned those are the final words needed to answer this thread!

[URL= ] muzzle gas clouds[/URL]

one more O and you got Tic Tac Toe

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Jason,how about showing up at one of the big bore shoots and teaching us how to shoot? Or to save you time and money just take your video camera along with you when you go to the range and make an instructional video for us.It will really be appreciated.

I don't think my 375 is allowed at the "big bore shoots". And what difference would it make? You would still insist on shooting a Lott and hitting the ground and/or the bull's scrotum with your second shot, right.....


Sorry for the jab, but I just can't believe you still believe your second shot was not in the dirt. Your video makes it pretty clear.

Look at the video again in slow motion.That is not dirt it is muzzle blast.It is not there in the second vid is it? The first shot went through both lungs and according to Richard Tabor, the buff was out of breath and could not make it up the hill.The second shot,while the buff was running, went through the rear hind leg and through the scotum.The third and fourth shot hit 3-4 inches high on the shoulder.

Shootaway,

Your second shot is CLEARLY in the dirt any other "explanation" is clearly nothing more than rationalization.

Muzzle blast you say?? that's the first time muzzle blast has been recorded at 100 yards striking the ground in front of the target. Get a clue man!

Hi, I have also had a good look on the video.
Here are 4 pics.
#1. Is showing the frame BEFORE the first shot.
#2. The next frame showing the bullet hitting.

#3. Then the frame BEFORE the second hit.
#4. The next frame showing the second hit.

At pic #4, you can see the bullet hit the ground, and the impact from the ricochet in the buffalo.
Nothing shown in the video is muzzle blast, as I can see it.

Don't be silly.I have the video right here and you see that ball of gas make its way from the muuzzle outward.You all keep on dreaming.

Ok, I don't want to make a war, but have a look on the blown up pic:

Lower arrow shows the bullet hitting ground,
Next arrow shows impact in buffalo.
The videofile I got is only 640x480 so a high quality video would have shown it better.

PS, two frames before I can see the first impact a few meters before. It is maybe a twig or into the ground. Just hard to tell.

[URL= ]a[/URL]That cloud of gas is not anywhere near the buff but about 100yds from it and just a few feet in front of me.

quote:

Originally posted by 350 Remington Magnum:
Ok, I don't want to make a war, but have a look on the blown up pic:

Lower arrow shows the bullet hitting ground,
Next arrow shows impact in buffalo.
The videofile I got is only 640x480 so a high quality video would have shown it better.

PS, two frames before I can see the first impact a few meters before. It is maybe a twig or into the ground. Just hard to tell.

That cloud of muzzle gas is not anywhere near the buff but 100yds from it and only a few feet in front of me.

Perhaps there was another shooter on the grassy knoll.

Maybe it is the bullet ricocheting off the buffalo and hitting the ground. These things are tough!!

Where'd the first shot hit??

quote:

originally posted by Greg R

We all helped with the skinning so we could reconstruct the shots and see what went wrong. At the end of the day, the only thing we could figure is the buff was just Hell bent on getting his revenge. I was getting cocky going up to number 13, but I won't take them for granted again. You won't catch me using a 9.3x62 again, either. It was probably just that particular animal and not the cartridge, but the .375 H&H is my personal minimum.

It's your call, Greg, but I'm not sure that your answer fits the lesson. If the 9.3 didn't work with good shot placement, I doubt very much whether its +.009" sister would have made any difference. They are both 'B" cup. Go to a "C" cup but don't hold your breath.

5000-6000 ftlbs with over .4" diameter and a premium quality bullet would be the conclusion that I would draw from your story.

My two shillings.

quote:

Originally posted by Deon:
Where'd the first shot hit??

The first shot went through both his lungs.The second went through his hind leg and through his scrotum.Here is the full video.[URL=]BUFF VIDEO

These show what my first shot did to my buffalo,




He still went over 150 yds; he wanted to get back up and get some payback but he couldn't. I will never underestimate their toughnes after that.

<chuckle> I was apparently the one that started this in the medium bore forum with a comment about the relative toughness of Bison versus Cape Buffalo.

I even went on to explain the experience with the buff as being my fault ... was the last day of a relatively early season hunt in a wet year (2006) and we hadn't seen much. Basically I had what amounts to a jump shot and hit an old fella too far back as he was exiting around a tree.

Was he a tough old fella ... sure as hell was.

More strong willed than the Bison I shot later the same year ... yup.

Point I was making in that thread was that perhaps one should not extrapolate the effect of a given rifle on Bison to its effect on a Cape Buffalo. Might not be wise if things aren't perfect ... as they are sometimes not.

My position is still that I would hunt Bison with a .35 Whelen or a .338 Win Mag ... but would opt for something heavier for Cape Buffalo. I'd rather have a heavier gun if things didn't go well.

Apologies to those that didn't get a chuckle out of these two discussions.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

originally posted by Greg R

We all helped with the skinning so we could reconstruct the shots and see what went wrong. At the end of the day, the only thing we could figure is the buff was just Hell bent on getting his revenge. I was getting cocky going up to number 13, but I won't take them for granted again. You won't catch me using a 9.3x62 again, either. It was probably just that particular animal and not the cartridge, but the .375 H&H is my personal minimum.

It's your call, Greg, but I'm not sure that your answer fits the lesson. If the 9.3 didn't work with good shot placement, I doubt very much whether its +.009" sister would have made any difference. They are both 'B" cup. Go to a "C" cup but don't hold your breath.

5000-6000 ftlbs with over .4" diameter and a premium quality bullet would be the conclusion that I would draw from your story.

My two shillings.

I prefer the .416 for buff, but have no problem with the .375. What I wanted to convey with my statement was that the 9.3 was probably not the culprit, but that experience soured me and I'll never use it again. I am definitely a C or D-cup guy, but even the .416 starts to aggravate my three ruptured disks after a few rounds, so I've gone back to my .375 lately.

For an all-rounder the properly set up 375 H&H with premium bullets, has no equal as far as ALL-ROUND classification goes, PERIOD!

Like most here I prefer a .400 cal or larger for a dedicated rifle for lion and up of the big five. I will say that for everything up to, but not including elephant, I prefer the first shot to be with a quality soft point bullet, followed by all solids for everything above lion. IMO the lion needs all controlled expansion softs.

As I have said here before the only one shot kills I have experienced on buffalo, where the brain or spine were not hit, was with a 375 H&H hand-loads at 2550 fps and a 300 gr. Nosler partition. All others have taken at least three shots regardless of caliber, or bullet type!

……………….Just a personal choice! Others may do as it suits them!

…………………………………… .....................

I agree that Cape buffalo can be killed as readily as anything else - but only when a proper bullet at adequate velocity is well placed.

By the same token, I don't take them lightly, because I know that if I make a mistake, the tables can turn in a hurry.

I prefer to use the same .458 and .500 caliber rifles for buffalo that I use for elephant.

Still, I have only a single one-shot kill on Cape buffalo. That's because I always keep shooting at them as long as I have a shot.

My single one-shot kill ran off into some elephant grass before I could shoot him again. He died there within a few minutes, but until we heard his death bellow, it was rather tense following him up in the high grass.



Better to keep shooting, I think.

quote:

He still went over 150 yds; he wanted to get back up and get some payback but he couldn't. I will never underestimate their toughnes after that.

+1 !!!

JW

All Bullets are from one buff.
So for Me the buff seems to be quite bulletproof...

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
I agree that Cape buffalo can be killed as readily as anything else - but only when a proper bullet at adequate velocity is well placed.

By the same token, I don't take them lightly, because I know that if I make a mistake, the tables can turn in a hurry.

I prefer to use the same .458 and .500 caliber rifles for buffalo that I use for elephant.

Still, I have only a single one-shot kill on Cape buffalo. That's because I always keep shooting at them as long as I have a shot.

My single one-shot kill ran off into some elephant grass before I could shoot him again. He died there within a few minutes, but until we heard his death bellow, it was rather tense following him up in the high grass.



Better to keep shooting, I think.

That's a damn nice bull, Mike.

He's my first or second best Selous bull, Greg. I don't measure them, so I'm not sure.

Despite what one hears, there are plenty of good old dugga boys in the Selous!

Maybe you need to stop shooting them from so far away.

Next time tell the PH you won't shoot any farther away than fifteen feet, and use a Ruger #1 in 38-55.

regards,

Rich

It's sooooo much more fun shooting them many times. One shot kills on buff are a complete downer........