There is plenty several group cans do.

1. All legitamite Zimbabwe PHs and Guides should join the ZPHGA. Power in numbers. Throw out the members if they participate in unethical or illegal behavior . Make it public why they were dismissed. Give the organization a unified voice.

2. PHASA could publicly denounce the illegal hunting in Zim. They have a nice website why not add a page concerning the situation in Zimbabwe.

3. I post on the AfricaHunting.com For a while there several dodgy outfitters were posting Zim hunts for sale, no areas listed, very little information, all out of SA. The owner of the site started requiring the following: All pertinent information is required, including outfitter name and where the hunt will take place if different than your company name as well as the area(s) where the hunt will be conducted. He also started asking for the names of the licensed PHs. Once he started requiring this small amount of information most of the problem hunts went away.

4. Why could not DSC and SCI have ther same requirements as above for all of the shows including chapters. If you are not the legal operator in the country you are selling hunts you must disclose who the legal operator is that you are representing. Does not seem like much to ask. This needs to happen at the big show in Pennsylvania also.

5. The following is an email exchange between me and Joe Da Silva with Kalulu safaris. Joe is South African, selling hunts in Matetsi. Read the email and from what I understand it is illegal to export ration quota. He claims quota in all 7 blocks of Matetsi including the photo area. This email is going to PHASA and has gone to the autorities in Zim. I am anxious to receive a response from PHASA as Joe is a member.



From: Joe Da Silva [mailto:parowarms@mweb.co.za]
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 7:07 AM
To: 'kburke2006'
Subject: RE: Matetsi Unit 6

100 percent exported Mike-as we pay the Parks the full price for the trophy fees, so they get a double bonus meat and money which they put into maintaining the Parks and they look after from area 1-7 in the Matetsi.
Thanks for your e-mail.
Best regards
Joe


From: kburke2006 [mailto:kburke2006@att.net]
Sent: 22 February 2011 14:05
To: Joe Da Silva
Subject: Re: Matetsi Unit 6

Joe,

Since it is a ration quota are the trophies exportable?

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 22, 2011, at 1:34 AM, "Joe Da Silva" <parowarms@mweb.co.za> wrote:
Hello Mike,

Thanks for your e-mail and also thanks for your comments on our web-page.

Regarding your question, yes the General still owns area 6 however our agreement is with National Parks which they own the whole Matetsi area from 1 to 7 they have their own allocation which was suppose to be rations but in turn are selling them to P.H’s , we have the agreement with them and have taken the whole quota of game for ourselves.

We have no agreement with the General at all.

Thanks for your inquiry.

Best Regards
Joe


From: kburke2006 [mailto:kburke2006@att.net]
Sent: 21 February 2011 14:53
To: parowarms@mweb.co.za
Subject: Matetsi Unit 6

Joe,

Nice looking site and good hunting area.

Does General Constantine Chiwenga and/or his wife still own the Matetsi Safari Unit 6 or at least the hunting rights. Being from SA you have a Zim partner. Are the Chiwenga’s your partner?

Kindest Regards,

Mike Burke

I sent the following email to SCI this evening. SCI, as well as PHASA and other reputable hunting organizations, should condemn these abuses:

I would like to call on SCI to issue a public statement denouncing and condemning the hunting abuses that are taking place in the National Parks in Zimbabwe. There are widespread reports of operators, both Zimbabwean and South African, that are conducting hunts in Zimbabwe's National Parks. These hunts are purportedly done on the basis of "licenses" issued by National Parks officials. Such "licenses" are of questionable legality and certainly fly in the face of ethical hunting. SCI states that it is dedicated to the conservation of wildlife worldwide. To that end SCI should condemn the hunts being conducted in Zimbabwe's National Parks in the strongest terms. SCI should also commit to take prompt action to revoke any person's membership in SCI upon presentation of reasonable proof of any member of SCI participating in such hunts. The preservation of one of Zimbabwe’s greatest national treasures, its wildlife, dictates that responsible sportsman, conservationists and hunting organizations everywhere, including SCI, join together in condemning these abuses.

Thank you Mike, if more people could do this, perhaps SCI would have to act.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I sent the following email to SCI this evening. SCI, as well as PHASA and other reputable hunting organizations, should condemn these abuses:

I would like to call on SCI to issue a public statement denouncing and condemning the hunting abuses that are taking place in the National Parks in Zimbabwe. There are widespread reports of operators, both Zimbabwean and South African, that are conducting hunts in Zimbabwe's National Parks. These hunts are purportedly done on the basis of "licenses" issued by National Parks officials. Such "licenses" are of questionable legality and certainly fly in the face of ethical hunting. SCI states that it is dedicated to the conservation of wildlife worldwide. To that end SCI should condemn the hunts being conducted in Zimbabwe's National Parks in the strongest terms. SCI should also commit to take prompt action to revoke any person's membership in SCI upon presentation of reasonable proof of any member of SCI participating in such hunts. The preservation of one of Zimbabwe’s greatest national treasures, its wildlife, dictates that responsible sportsman, conservationists and hunting organizations everywhere, including SCI, join together in condemning these abuses.

Mike,

That is a good correspondence directed at SCI. PM sent to you.

Todd

quote:

Originally posted by Mike70560:
There is plenty several group cans do.

1. All legitamite Zimbabwe PHs and Guides should join the ZPHGA. Power in numbers. Throw out the members if they participate in unethical or illegal behavior . Make it public why they were dismissed. Give the organization a unified voice.

2. PHASA could publicly denounce the illegal hunting in Zim. They have a nice website why not add a page concerning the situation in Zimbabwe.

3. I post on the AfricaHunting.com For a while there several dodgy outfitters were posting Zim hunts for sale, no areas listed, very little information, all out of SA. The owner of the site started requiring the following: All pertinent information is required, including outfitter name and where the hunt will take place if different than your company name as well as the area(s) where the hunt will be conducted. He also started asking for the names of the licensed PHs. Once he started requiring this small amount of information most of the problem hunts went away.

4. Why could not DSC and SCI have ther same requirements as above for all of the shows including chapters. If you are not the legal operator in the country you are selling hunts you must disclose who the legal operator is that you are representing. Does not seem like much to ask. This needs to happen at the big show in Pennsylvania also.

5. The following is an email exchange between me and Joe Da Silva with Kalulu safaris. Joe is South African, selling hunts in Matetsi. Read the email and from what I understand it is illegal to export ration quota. He claims quota in all 7 blocks of Matetsi including the photo area. This email is going to PHASA and has gone to the autorities in Zim. I am anxious to receive a response from PHASA as Joe is a member.



From: Joe Da Silva [mailto:parowarms@mweb.co.za]
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 7:07 AM
To: 'kburke2006'
Subject: RE: Matetsi Unit 6

100 percent exported Mike-as we pay the Parks the full price for the trophy fees, so they get a double bonus meat and money which they put into maintaining the Parks and they look after from area 1-7 in the Matetsi.
Thanks for your e-mail.
Best regards
Joe


From: kburke2006 [mailto:kburke2006@att.net]
Sent: 22 February 2011 14:05
To: Joe Da Silva
Subject: Re: Matetsi Unit 6

Joe,

Since it is a ration quota are the trophies exportable?

Sent from my iPad

On Feb 22, 2011, at 1:34 AM, "Joe Da Silva" <parowarms@mweb.co.za> wrote:
Hello Mike,

Thanks for your e-mail and also thanks for your comments on our web-page.

Regarding your question, yes the General still owns area 6 however our agreement is with National Parks which they own the whole Matetsi area from 1 to 7 they have their own allocation which was suppose to be rations but in turn are selling them to P.H’s , we have the agreement with them and have taken the whole quota of game for ourselves.

We have no agreement with the General at all.

Thanks for your inquiry.

Best Regards
Joe


From: kburke2006 [mailto:kburke2006@att.net]
Sent: 21 February 2011 14:53
To: parowarms@mweb.co.za
Subject: Matetsi Unit 6

Joe,

Nice looking site and good hunting area.

Does General Constantine Chiwenga and/or his wife still own the Matetsi Safari Unit 6 or at least the hunting rights. Being from SA you have a Zim partner. Are the Chiwenga’s your partner?

Kindest Regards,

Mike Burke

WOW!! Mike I'll be the first to admit, I am NOT as familiar with the Matetsi areas as are others, but the basic premise here seems the same.

Unless I have missed it, and that's quite possible. MARTIN PIETERS can you spell it out for me please - see below.

Ok, Nat Parks gets rations quota - within a safari area, correct? Designed to be used for "rations" amongst Park employees, also correct?

1. Are they allowed legally to sell/trade/offer that quota to a hunting operator for use with paying clients?

2. If the answer to #1 is yes, then I would assume that sport hunters can hunt the animals on the rations quota, but its designed to be NON-TROPHY, correct? Things like cow elephants perhaps, management bulls that are OLD, broken tusks, etc? I see no problem with this, as long as its legal to participate in the act.

3. Now, is that trophy/quota legally allowed to be exported by a paying client?

Any additional info would be helpful!

Thank you,

Aaron

* The minister and or the director general can grant permission to hunt any where according to our act.
* According to the rules and regulations stipulated by the director general , ration and or non trophy and or management animals cannot be exported.
* There are loop holes whereby unscrupulous operators/PH's sell ration hunts as trophy hunts with the knowledge that they can ' purchase ' the trophy from parks and hence they can export it using a special permit reserved for curios ( ie mounted trophies )

USFW stated to me that ration hunts are not sport hunted trophies and hence violations of the Lacey act may have occurred if importation takes place

Mart

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:

USFW stated to me that ration hunts are not sport hunted trophies and hence violations of the Lacey act may have occurred if importation takes place

Mart

Martin - Thanks for that! The statement above however, is the one that could really have some teeth for American Hunters!!!!!

I sent my email to five different SCI email addresses. Guess what I received in response. Nada. Shocking. Not.

quote:

2. If the answer to #1 is yes, then I would assume that sport hunters can hunt the animals on the rations quota, but its designed to be NON-TROPHY, correct? Things like cow elephants perhaps, management bulls that are OLD, broken tusks, etc? I see no problem with this, as long as its legal to participate in the act.

Aaron,

According to joe they are shooting trophies on ration quota. So those trophies are being shot on top of the trophy quota..

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I sent my email to five different SCI email addresses. Guess what I received in response. Nada. Shocking. Not.

Mike,

Nothing from PHASA either.

It is indeed very painful reading through this, and other similar posts. As a guy that has the dreams of so many others, to hunt a reasonably wild Africa, at least once, these issues sure serve to take a bit of the romance out of the idea. I can't begin to express how sad I am to see these countries and countrymen having to deal with such unreasonable conditions. Although, I see us here in the U.S. not that far behind.

Not to hijack this thread but I have a question...

If I as a SA Operator have to pay Observer fees for the privelege of accompanying my clients on a hunt with one of the reputable guys and this was the appropriate / correct way of doing things... what are the benefits for me as "agent" taking clients up to Zim?

The commission I'll earn on a 7 day buff hunt might cover my expenses getting to Zim and back... If I were then to be charged observer fees on top I'll have to pay in on the hunt... which hardly makes sense from a business perspective?

I think it is a great idea to "out" these rogue operators so that honest hunters won't book with them.
I have had the unique experience of hunting 2 auction camps in Sapi many years apart.
I certainly did not have the benefit of local area experience however the first hunt in 1984 was sucessful regardless as game was plentiful.
The last in 1999 was vastly different with greatly reduced numbers of game.
After such a gap [off Zim after all bar one of my farmer friends were kicked off their land] I enquired again last year.
Ganyana was a great help in advising me that Nyakasanga had at least 4 operators there when it is supposed to be an "auction area only"!!!.
I did not bother to bid for there or Sapi.
APB

quote:

Originally posted by APB:
Ganyana was a great help in advising me that Nyakasanga had at least 4 operators there when it

is supposed to be an "auction area only"!!!.
I did not bother to bid for there or Sapi.
APB

These auctions areas as I understand it were meant to be for citizen hunting.

Its really quite obvious that outfitters should be excluded ie no pay for service allowed.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:
Not to hijack this thread but I have a question...

If I as a SA Operator have to pay Observer fees for the privelege of accompanying my clients on a hunt with one of the reputable guys and this was the appropriate / correct way of doing things... what are the benefits for me as "agent" taking clients up to Zim?

The commission I'll earn on a 7 day buff hunt might cover my expenses getting to Zim and back... If I were then to be charged observer fees on top I'll have to pay in on the hunt... which hardly makes sense from a business perspective?

+ 1 these hunts benefit ZIMBABWE and are LEGAL.Just as any BOOKING agents hunt benefits.

people need to differentiate between the legal cover hunts and the ILLEGAL HUNTS that are being conducted by not only UNREGISTETRED SOUTH AFRICANS but SWEDES and DANES and I also met a FINN doing hunts near/on the GWAAI in 2006.

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:
Not to hijack this thread but I have a question...

If I as a SA Operator have to pay Observer fees for the privelege of accompanying my clients on a hunt with one of the reputable guys and this was the appropriate / correct way of doing things... what are the benefits for me as "agent" taking clients up to Zim?

The commission I'll earn on a 7 day buff hunt might cover my expenses getting to Zim and back... If I were then to be charged observer fees on top I'll have to pay in on the hunt... which hardly makes sense from a business perspective?

+1

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

quote:

Originally posted by ChrisTroskie:
Not to hijack this thread but I have a question...

If I as a SA Operator have to pay Observer fees for the privelege of accompanying my clients on a hunt with one of the reputable guys and this was the appropriate / correct way of doing things... what are the benefits for me as "agent" taking clients up to Zim?

The commission I'll earn on a 7 day buff hunt might cover my expenses getting to Zim and back... If I were then to be charged observer fees on top I'll have to pay in on the hunt... which hardly makes sense from a business perspective?

+ 1 these hunts benefit ZIMBABWE and are LEGAL.Just as any BOOKING agents hunt benefits.

people need to differentiate between the legal cover hunts and the ILLEGAL HUNTS that are being conducted by not only UNREGISTETRED SOUTH AFRICANS but SWEDES and DANES and I also met a FINN doing hunts near/on the GWAAI in 2006.

Fact is this...

As far as true free range hunting in a wild environment is concerned SA cannot compete with Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Tanzania etc.

So when we as SA Operators get requests for hunting opportunities in "wild Africa" what should we do?

1.) Pass clients on to some of the reputable Zim guys, get our commission and walk away from the hunt or do we explore other legal possibilities inside Zim?
2.) We may love what we do for a living but we also earn our bread and butter through it so passing good clients on to another Operator in return for a 15% commission is not a good option for future business.
3.) Then some black Zim PH with access to hunting areas approaches us with a deal that is hard to say no to... Instead of us earning commission on another PH's daily rates and waving our client goodbye the black Zim PH charges us a fixed PH rate, undertakes to take care of all the necessary paperwork, ensure the hunt will be legal in every way, guide the client on the hunt and give us access to dry camps where we pay a fixed daily rate per client (or for the camp)...
4.) Suddenly we're in a position where we have access to a camp and Zim PH for under $500p/d. Add transportation costs, supplies, diesel for the Zim PH's Zim registered hunting vehicle etc. and we can actually make a profit on the hunt by charging daily rates similar to those of the reputable and established Zim companies...

Does electing # 3 and 4 above make S/Africans bad, despicable people with no regard for wildlife?

Many comments have been thrown in on this and several other recent threads regarding us "bad" South Africans and how no one should even consider booking a hunt through them in Zimbabwe. A point that I agree with incidentally IF the SA Operator is hunting illegally. But the impression seems to be created that all South African Operators who offer hunts in Zimbabwe are doing so illegally... I don't believe this is true...

I am NOT coming up for ANYONE who is offering illegal hunts in Zimbabwe or any other country - whether they be South African, Swedish, Danish or Zimbabwean. Those who are doing so should in my opinion be exposed and weeded out and if PHASA or any other body can do something about this I support it...

BUT; considering earlier statements to the effect of it being mandatory for South African Operators to pay for their stay in camp... is it that strange or unusual for them to explore other possibilities in Zim - like those offered by the black PH's? AGAIN; I'm not condoning illegal hunting whatsoever... just asking the question and assuming that the hunts offered by some of the black Zim PH's are legal...

Large effort has been made on this and other forums to force/encourage SA Operators offering hunts in Zim to expose where the hunts will take place and through who. I applaud this as this goes a long way towards establishing credibility and transparency. However; if I were to book one of my clients or prospective clients for a hunt with XXX Safaris in Zimbabwe strictly on a commission basis and I was expected to pay a daily observer rate for myself I cannot make any money (as said in a previous post I'd actually have to pay in) unless I were to add something for myself on the daily rates of XXX Safaris... For me personally this would not work as:

1.) If XXX Safaris charged a daily rate of $1,000p/d and I quoted a prospective client $1,200p/d AND I had to publish the name of the Zim company there would be no reason why new clients needed to book through me... they could simply book through the Zim company direct and save themselves $200p/d? And if they did - I would have acted as referring agent without earning a dime for my effort.
2.) I cannot expect current clients to pay a "premium" for booking though me - even if they were willing to do so.
3.) I cannot afford, neither do I wish to work for free... Even if my client is willing to pay my way to hunt in Zimbabwe time is money and as much as what I may appreciate the opportunity of spending time in "wild Africa", I could have used that same time earning money by hunting back home.

Just my two Cents...

I have just returned from SCI in Vegas and almost every single Southafrican was offering Zimbabwe hunts.Chris,question for you,the guys you are dealing with are they paying their concession fee's?Or rather on who's land are you hunting?

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Barnard:
I have just returned from SCI in Vegas and almost every single Southafrican was offering Zimbabwe hunts.Chris,question for you,the guys you are dealing with are they paying their concession fee's?Or rather on who's land are you hunting?

Which is another big issue which needs to be transparent for US hunters to NOT break US law.

Originally quoted by Chris Troskie
Large effort has been made on this and other forums to force/encourage SA Operators offering hunts in Zim to expose where the hunts will take place and through who. I applaud this as this goes a long way towards establishing credibility and transparency.

TRANSPARANCY IS NOT THE PROBLEM ledvm
its the UNTRANSPARENT GUYS we need to track down and they are NOT ALL SOUTH AFRICAN.
that is the point.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter Barnard:
I have just returned from SCI in Vegas and almost every single Southafrican was offering Zimbabwe hunts.Chris,question for you,the guys you are dealing with are they paying their concession fee's?Or rather on who's land are you hunting?

Hi Peter,

My questions / statements re. the reasons why SA Operators may consider booking thru some of the black Zim PH's were largely rhetorical... I am personally not, nor are any of my clients hunting on anyone's land in Zimbabwe. However; when I do get an enquiry I try and channel business towards the way of Martin Pieters at this stage... can't say that I've had much success though...

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:
Originally quoted by Chris Troskie
Large effort has been made on this and other forums to force/encourage SA Operators offering hunts in Zim to expose where the hunts will take place and through who. I applaud this as this goes a long way towards establishing credibility and transparency.

TRANSPARANCY IS NOT THE PROBLEM ledvm
its the UNTRANSPARENT GUYS we need to track down and they are NOT ALL SOUTH AFRICAN.
that is the point.

Agreed.

But you made my point for me. If you can't document proprer arrangement...IE: document proper concession holding and quota dedicated to sport hunting and provide that to the hunter...a US citizen should be wary. If no one deals with the UNTRANSPARENT GUYS...they will go away and NOT need tracking down.

I doubt if it will hold in a court of law.

How is a ration hunt differnt to issueing cow elk tags of doe deer tags?

They are issued for meat & conservation. Subsistance hunts in Alaska are treated as non-trophy & the antlers / horns are cut!

So are ration hunts subsistance hunts or doe tags? I will argue that since the hunter is not the local resident who subsists on it, it is a doe tag.

JMTBW

quote:

Originally posted by Aaron Neilson:

quote:

Originally posted by martin pieters:

USFW stated to me that ration hunts are not sport hunted trophies and hence violations of the Lacey act may have occurred if importation takes place

Mart

Martin - Thanks for that! The statement above however, is the one that could really have some teeth for American Hunters!!!!!