Mike,

They've done it all, including press releases etc before and nothing has changed.

So far and to the best of my knowledge, no PHASA member has been proved/found guilty of involvement in these criminal activity..... so therefore I don't see they can do anything else..... but if you do, then you do it but please don't expect me to be your secretary and do it for you...... frankly, I don't even have a home to call my own at this moment and have far too much to do already...... To say nothing of the fact that I don't agree with you. As I said previously, I don't think it has anything to do with them so therefore don't think they should comment..... or at least not until the Zim authorities and associations take the lead.

As for arguing with me, all I do is present the facts as I believe them to be. I can't change facts to suit gossip etc. If the facts I present can't be refuted then logic decrees that I'm probably right doesn't it?

I truly want these dodgy fly by night bastards nailed as much as anyone else does but that doesn't alter the facts of the case and nor does it mean people who haven't been proven guilty should be sentenced to being criticised, let alone hanged, drawn and quartered...... nor does it mean that an association that's completely unconnected with the country and/or the problem should be unfairly criticised.

quote:

In the case of taxes or permits, how would you suggest erring on the side of caution? Do you provide 1) audited copies of your taxes for review by potential hunters wishing to employ Shoestring Safaris; 2) notarized copies of all licenses and permits; and, 3) a contract financially indemnifying any hunter who, due to a legal shortfall on your part, may be prosecuted or fined under the Lacey Act? Of course not; that would be insane.

Again, no dog in this fight, but if you will for a few minutes bring yourself down to a normal persons level, you will find out with just a little checking thru the annals of AR, that people such a Gibson Guitar Manufacturers are facing Lacey Act violations simply because they do not have adequate proof where a several year old piece of rosewood to be used as decoration on one of their guitars came from.

This whole discussion has nothing to do with legal hunting practices here in America, or anywhere else for that matter. It has to do with not so legal practices taking place in Africa, a foriegn country, and USF&WS has a proven track record of trying to enforce the laws of foriegn countries on U.S. Citizens that had no knowledge anything they were doing could be illegal.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
They've done it all, including press releases etc before and nothing has changed.

... nor does it mean that an association that's completely unconnected with the country and/or the problem should be unfairly criticised.

Why don't you post a copy of the press release PHASA issued condemning hunting in Zim's National Parks, that would be helpful to all of us.

If members of PHASA are hunting in Zim's National Parks, doesn't seem to me that PHASA is completely unconnected . . . particularly when you read PHASA's own Code of Conduct.

I am confident you are not going to post the press release (much less releases plural) that you referred to because none exist. Arguing with you I feel sort of like the fellow that was beating his head against the wall. Someone asked him, why in heck are doing that. He replied, because it feels so good when I stop. I'm done wasting my time, I stop . . . but I sure would like to see that press release(s). . . .

Mike

I've already pointed out that I'm not your bloody secretary and I'll add I'm just a member and not their spokesman........so why don't you get off your arse and email PHASA yourself (instead of asking me to do it for you) and ask them what they've done and said in the past about the situation...... I'm sure they'll be happy to reply with chapter and verse.

As for PHASA members being proved, tried and found guilty of hunting in Zim's national parks...... I'm not aware of any evidence of them doing so but if you know better, you'd better pass that info onto PHASA as well. If your belief is correct then I'm sure they'll expel the relevent members asap.

As you so rightly pointed out, PHASA have their code of conduct on their site already so I fail to see they can do much more anyway.

Here's an analogy of what it seems to me you see things..... It's like Kenya issuing a press release stating 'We deplore the actions of the Somali pirates and call on them to stop hijacking ships and demanding obscene ransoms and if they don't, we'll be awfully upset'

Do you seriously think the Somali pirates would pay them one iota of attention?

Surprise, surprise, no press release.

Mike

See my previous reply and then add on the fact that I receive several thousand emails a year and have been a PHASA member for decades and then think about why I have no intention of searching through God knows how many messages just to save you a bit of convenience....... if you want that kind of info then I suggest you do as I suggested and get off your lardy and ask them yourself........ I have no doubt they'll reply.

As we say in Texas, all hat and no cattle.

Go ahead, you get the last word. I will leave this debate to others whose heads do not hurt yet.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Mike

I've already pointed out that I'm not your bloody secretary and I'll add I'm just a member and not their spokesman........so why don't you get off your arse and email PHASA yourself (instead of asking me to do it for you) and ask them what they've done and said in the past about the situation...... I'm sure they'll be happy to reply with chapter and verse.

It seems you voluntarily entered into the fray with both guns blazing, Steve, defending PHASA all the while. To now feel put upon when challenged on your various statements seems a little disingenuous.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Here's an analogy of what it seems to me you see things..... It's like Kenya issuing a press release stating 'We deplore the actions of the Somali pirates and call on them to stop hijacking ships and demanding obscene ransoms and if they don't, we'll be awfully upset'

Do you seriously think the Somali pirates would pay them one iota of attention?

I've already commented on your earlier (and rather feeble) "bush African" analogy, but this one is not only lame but rather embarrassing: For it to serve as a true analogy, the pirates would have to be launching their attacks from Mombasa. And the origin of the perpetrators is precisely the issue, Steve.

Sigmund Freud wrote, “analogies decide nothing but they can make one feel more at home.” Perhaps being away from your African "home" would explain the disconnect with the facts?

Mike

I don't give a flying fuck what you say in Texas mate....... the facts are the crimes are happening in Zimbabwe and if you had an ounce of logic, you'd appreciate that's where the investigation, trial and if applicable, punishment etc should take place and you can't argue with the facts.

To the best of my knowledge there's no EVIDENCE the RSA guys who are involved are even qualified RSA PHs, let alone members of PHASA and even if they are and even if they're proven guilty the only thing PHASA can do about it is to expel the culprits which ain't gonna make an iota of difference.

If you want to blame someone, you should blame the Zim immigration officers who let these guys in, the Zim Govt and/or PB officials who commit the crime of writing the illegal permits and allow the crime to happen and the Zim game scouts who I assume should be around to turn a blind eye to the crimes.

I agree we need to put a stop to the crimes that are happening but trying to blame an outside association that has no legal powers anyway isn't gonna do squat...

ADDED

Even if these blokes were PHASA members and even if they were proven guilty the only thing PHASA could do is expel them from the association.

That didn't stop the canned lion shooting guys and it didn't even put a crimp in DW of OoA operations so it sure as hell won't stop these blokes shennanigans........ if you want to stop them you have to prove them guilty IN THE COUNTRY where the crime took place and punish them THERE!

All that is needed for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing.

What percentage of hunts in Zim stem from these South African covered hunts?

Are they really so significant that you can't just ban them outright?

The legitimate Zim operators are obviously frustrated by the corruption and are looking for help from anywhere they can get it, but I think Shakari is basically correct on this one. Maybe PHASA could censure or expel any member proven to be conducting abusive hunts in Zim, but wouldn't that be like beating them with a wet noodle?

The Zim PHs need to come together and demand that all covered hunts be declared illegal no matter what the nationality the visitiing PH or guest might be. It will cost you guys some money in lost hunts in the short run and maybe reciprocal hunting opportunities in RSA, but at least you will have a long run.

Wow, Steve. 17 posts on this thread.

Why is it so hard to conceive that PHASA ought to police its members that are crossing the border and hunting illegally in Zim?

Every profession that I know of cares what the so called professionals do whether in their home country or abroad. If I go to Canada and break the law you can bet that the Alabama state bar will want answers. PHASA should be no different and Zim's PHA should do its part as well. Saying this is "just" a Zim issue is part of the problem.

quote:

Buzz, I know you are pissed off about the situation there. The problem is Steve is right. Phasa can not enforce your countries game laws. Hell my friend, your organizations can't enforce them.

Chaps I think 1. you think PHASA is bigger than it really is.This is a organization that represents roughly half of the outfitters an Phs.?? Most local meat hunters havent heard of them.
2. Zim PHA should approach PHASA and ask for assistance and as Steve says they will send out another bulletin.
3. SCI is a much bigger organization with a lot more influence and most of these undesirables market at there shows.
4.ZPHA should approach them with there grievances

PHASA IS NOT THE LION THEY ADVERTISE TO BE

Steve,

It's clear to me that Buzz and the other Zimbos are calling for an effort within Zim to clean up the mess. But with the current government there, it is an uphill battle. Therefore, they are asking for help. That's all.

Even though PHASA itself doesn't have teeth to police the SA Operators who are violating the law in Zim, would it not be proper for PHASA to encourage the RSA Government to take action in punishing its citizens who are breaking the law, albeit in another country? Specifically, if these guys are licensed PH's in RSA, but breaking hunting laws in Zimbabwe, would it not be proper for PHASA, the leading organization that claims to represent and promote the profession, to lobby the professional hunters' licensing authority to take certificate action against known violators, regardless of where the violation takes place?

If a US resident goes to Zim and breaks the law by hunting illegally, he can be found guilty of violating the Lacey Act and prosecuted. In this instance, the USA is saying the lack of a properly functioning and accountable legal system in Zim is no excuse for one of it's citizens to travel there and knowingly commit a crime, even if the local government doesn't care.

Please allow me an analogy in an attempt to tie the two paragraphs above together. Prior to some medical issues that took me out of the cockpit, I was a professional airline pilot for many years. The Federal Aviation Administration was our licensing authority within the USA. I was also part of a Professional Pilots Union that attempted to represent the best interests of its member pilots. If a pilot knowingly and willfully violated an aviation law or regulation in a foreign country, such as drinking alcohol just prior to a flight, that pilot would not only be subject to prosecution of the laws of the country in which the violation took place, but the FAA here in the USA would also take certificate action against him as well (ie suspend or revoke his license). If the charges were proven to be accurate, I would expect the Pilots' Union to support and even call for said certificate action to be taken inorder to punish him as this kind of activity damages the profession and all future prospects for advancement of the profession's interests. In this analogy, the pilots union would be PHASA and the FAA would be the RSA's Professional Hunting Licensing Agency.

Pointing the finger and saying "it's happening in their country, so let them handle it" really is short sighted. Steve the only reason people are questioning you on this issue is you took a public stand and indicated by your posting here on AR that you personally are willing to discuss the matter. No personal judgements are being made IMO. All parties involved should take an active interest in correcting the problem.

Respectfully,

Todd

quote:

Originally posted by leopards valley safaris:

quote:

Buzz, I know you are pissed off about the situation there. The problem is Steve is right. Phasa can not enforce your countries game laws. Hell my friend, your organizations can't enforce them.

Chaps I think 1. you think PHASA is bigger than it really is.This is a organization that represents roughly half of the outfitters an Phs.?? Most local meat hunters havent heard of them.
2. Zim PHA should approach PHASA and ask for assistance and as Steve says they will send out another bulletin.
3. SCI is a much bigger organization with a lot more influence and most of these undesirables market at there shows.
4.ZPHA should approach them with there grievances

PHASA IS NOT THE LION THEY ADVERTISE TO BE

Dave,

You have some good points there as well. I would think that if PHASA and ZPHA got together and wrote a point paper outlining the issues, identifying the players, and pointing out how the organization is contributing to the ongoing problem by not addressing it with exhibitors at the show that are involved, that would be a good start.

Then a representative or two from each could jointly present the complaint to SCI, DSC, and any other organization that is a party to the issue. I would hope that with this type of approach, and with advisement that informed and engaged groups such as AR and others are following what actions the organizations are willing to take to help correct the mess, that some satisfactory headway could be made.

I know many will be skeptical of any interest by SCI and they may be proven correct. But I know for a fact that just jumping up and down complaining through the keyboard is not the proper channel to take if action is desired. I'm not accusing you of that to be clear. I am generically stating that for all the complaining about SCI, I wonder how much effort has been initiated through proper channels to correct perceived wrongs.

I'm on the BOD of a local chapter and I know that I'm not aware of all the issues surrounding all the exhibitors at our show. But I guarantee you that if I hear of something amiss concerning an outfitter, I dig into the issue and find out what I can. I'm not bashful about going the the other board members and lobbying to have the outfitter removed from the show if they are not on the up and up. I think MOST of the SCI volunteers like myself, operate in this same manner. I'm also sure there are some bad apples out there as well.

Safari Lawyer

My current internet connection isn't usually this good so I'm making the most of it while I can..... I'm sure it won't last long!

More generally. Some of you guys are still misunderstanding me.

Firstly, it's not the cover hunting that's causing or is the problem. Cover hunting if done correctly is perfectly legal and legitimate. The problem seems to be that some guys who may or may not be RSA PHs and may or may not be PHASA members are operating in areas such as national parks AND without locally licenced PHs. (Therefore not cover hunting).

You say that PHASA should make an announcement or communicate a message to it's members condemning these illegal hunts and saying that any PHASA member involved will lose his membership.

They have been doing that on a fairly regular basis for some considerable years........ Their own code of conduct as published on their website and in every single newsletter they send to it's members also makes it clear that all members are expected to behave honourably and law abidingly at all times.

Quite frankly, I don't see what else they can do or what else anyone can expect them to do.

Here's a scenario for you to consider:

Joe Bloggs (RSA citizen) who may or may not be a qualified PH and may or may not be a PHASA member is caught hunting with a client in a Zim national park and with or without a locally licenced PH.

He's questioned/searched and found to be in posession of a dodgy hunting permit that might be construed as legalising his hunt and said permit is signed by Mr Sweatness Backanderbill who is a high ranking parks board official who has apparently taken a large bribe to sign the permit.

One course of action that could be followed is to put them both on trial in Zimbabwe and send them down for 5 years in a Zim jail where they'll starve and be gang banged on a regular basis.

Another could be reporting the company to the SCI ethics committee so Joe Bloggs MIGHT (note the big might) be refused a booth at the next convention and therefore can't peddle his dodgy wares and his mate Mr Sweatness walks away.

OR Joe Bloggs gets a stern letter from PHASA and loses his membership to the association and Mr Sweatness again walks away.

Now, which of those options do you think is going to be most effective at putting a proper halt to the dodgy shennanigans that are happening in Zim?

I appreciate what's happening in Zim is deplorable but as I see it, the cure needs to (at least initially) come from Zim and in my eyes, the only real deterrent is to be found in a Zim jail.

To the best of my knowledge, there's no proof whatsoever that the RSA guys involved are even licenced PHs, let alone members of PHASA but if PHASA are to be involved, it should only be in a role that supports the Zim PHA rather than takes the lead and hopes the Zim PHA will follow.

Let's also not forget that this issue isn't restricted to RSA citizens alone. There has been for some years an occasional company, some from RSA, some from Zim and probably some from elsewhere (I'm going from memory but I seem to remember more than one US agent who has offered and then withdrawn such hunts right here on AR) who try to flog dodgy hunts in Zim national parks...... so why the hell suddenly blame it all on RSA citizens who might not even be PHASA members?

Don't criticise PHASA, criticise the situation and people in Zim who allow this to happen and look to Zim to provide the solution and take the lead in putting a stop to it.

Let's also remember that RSA can't even get it's act together on it's own game and hunting laws etc. It can't decide what to do about the canned lion problem, it can't decide what to do with it's own PH qualification process and it seems it can't even bring the DW/OoA/rhino poaching issues (that entire case seems to have disappeared up it's own arse!) to a satisfactory conclusion and PHASA battles with all of those things and more on a daily basis....... if they can't deal with their own problems how can they be expected to deal with issues in other African countries that may or may not involve RSA citizens and/or PHASA members?

I should add that whilst I've been a member of PHASA for many years, this will probably be my last year as a member. I'm now pretty much retired and they don't maintain a retired list and I have better things to do with my money than buy a life membership.

I haven't always agreed with everything PHASA has said and done but overall, I'm very proud to have been a member for the years I have.

I agree with Steve. The same shit happens here in Zambia but those individuals are protected by the crooks they deal with. Cross border policing does not work. If you were to interfere then there would be repercussions. Just look at what happened to Ross and Greg Michelson in Nyampala a few years back? Deported for stepping on some businessman's toes?

Our PH association is inundated with complaints but they to have no clout. You can circumvent PHAZ and walk into ZAWA (Wildlife Department) and buy your full PH license for $6,000. ZAWA view this as income and no questions are asked.

The rot does need to be chiseled out from the inside. And unfortunately for our industry there are still many who are looking for that bargain hunt and who are blinkered to the ways of these operators, and probably do not have a clue where Zimbabwe is on the map let alone an unmarked park boundary.

Still posts like this do create awareness and maybe the large hunting organisations could do more to publicise these nefarious activities? Dunno.

Folks

First and foremost as Fair game pointed out despite conflicting views on the subject it has created an awareness, which is the first step in the right direction to attempting to solve the situation!

Steve many valid points have come out from these posts including the following

1/ An extraordinary number od South Africans have been involved in “dubious hunts” in Zim.

2/ Zim situation means that we cannot just “change em” with regards to the so-called “laws” – as much as we would like to.

3/ PHASA- may not be as strong and influential as we thought and like our relevant associations lack the muscle due to the political situation to be able to control and enforce rules.

4/ No one has issues with Sa hunters coming into Zim with their clients and hunting legal concessions with a Zim PH- I have shared camp with many excellent SA Phs in the past, Mark De Wet , Phil Bronkhorst , Paul Stones and Karel Maartins to name but a few. Their clients paid day fees and they paid observer rates- all above board – they were a pleasure to have- no issues at all.

5/ We realise that for every questionable hunt in Zim that has a SA PH involved that there is also a Zim fellow behind it- be it a PH or a parks official or a political big wig.

5/ We realise that we need to take the initiative ourselves and take the steps to correct these issues within Zim- HOWEVER we are saying that the odds are against our associations been ZPHGA and SOAZ due to the present situation. They are doing as much as they can at the moment and know the likes of Martin work tirelessly at this.

No one is actually accusing PHASA members of committing any crimes in Zim BUT we are asking that they publicly recognise that their fellow country men are involved and make a stand against ANY South African operating in Zimbabwe outside of “their code of ethics” which is obviously taking place

6/ Zim needs to change the rules allowing SA PHs from buying hunts at our auctions. If they do they should be forced to hunt/ accompany a qualified Zim PH. We have a lot of qualified PH that are short of days that would appreciate this opportunity and as a whole ( agreed not all!) are ethical and have been through the rigorous Zim apprentiships and are well qualified to do the hunts and are also aware of the standard Zim laws making it harder to abuse them.

As a whole I think some positives have been noted and I hope, and would like to think that from the discussion, that the two associations will make a joint stance against this abuse. Do any of us realistically think that that will solve the situation immediately?- absolutely not BUT it is a start, and as once said “ A marathon starts with the first step”

Buzz

Buzz +1 for starting with clamping down/restricting on who buys the auction hunts. That whole system needs to be rethought and fast. The dodgy South Africans have the clients and the rotten Zimbos have access to the quotas. Limit the access to quotas and the guys wont come to Zim. The reputable Paul Stones, Mark De Wets etc will continue to come through the right channels and operators and it benefits all involved; the way it has been for decades.

I also think there is a new generation of Zimbabwean PH's who genuinely care and want to see their country and game prosper in the long run. For a few years there were many who were only interested in getting as much out with no regard for the consequences - and they opened the door to everyone and anyone who could help them line their pockets. I have hunted a bit in Zim a few years back and their were many PH's disgusted by the actions of their compatriots. Even areas like Charisa and the Omay were used and abused and are nothing like they used to be. Poaching and bad management no doubt had an impact but the poor attitudes and principles of some of the "reputable" outfitters back then also hammered the game populations.

Zimbabwe has for years been a country divided in many aspects. Kudos to Martin, Buzz and co who are trying to turn the tide and get rid of the rot. Whether it is their problem or not PHASA should get behind these guys AND so should SCI; had they clamped down on OOA and their ilk in the late 90' and early 2000's it would have made a massive difference.

I have never been to Africa.....BUT

* Is not the system of issueing PH licences in SA controlled by the Provinces and not a national body? I see this as a fundamental problem
* Does PHASA coordinate across all Provincial authorities to look after the interest of SA hunitng? Or is it just the members?
* What did PHASA do about the rhino poaching issue? Did they make a public stand against Dowie Groenwald & co and the other cops higher up?

Going back to an earlier question - how many PHs have ben kicked out by PHASA? Were there licenses cancelled?

What is the procedure in SA for complaining against a particular PH & having his licence revoked?

My personal view is that PHASA will try to protect its members and support them as long as they are not involved in anything illegal. On the other hand they may also try to avoid the very difficult and murkey issues of non-members being involved in illegal activity.

To me it apears that the whole professional hunting scenario in Zim & SA needs a clean up - with single national authorities overseeing all regional / tribal jurisdiction.

It looks like the "monster" now has too many heads and it is impossible to pin it down.

How about the Zimbabwe PH Association stop the Zimbabwe PH collaborating with thei South African counter parts in thes questionable hunts?

many good points have been raised.

A few clear procedures that can be followed, may reduce some of the dodgy dealings.

1- Only registered hunting outfitters/companies in their particular country, can bid on auction hunts, concession areas , management quota etc (not ph's, foreign ph's, foreign outfitters or joe blogs) Citizen hunts can not be converted to foreigner hunts with exportable trophees.

2- Foreign clients have to be hunted by a registered licensed ph, through a registered local outfit that is sactioning the hunt.

3- If the client is booked by a foreign outfit and or accompanied by a foreign ph, the foreign outfit is only acting as a booking agent and the ph is only an observer.

4- If serious contraventions occur, the relevant game department can suspend a ph license or an outfit license.

Charlie

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
I have never been to Africa.....BUT

* Is not the system of issueing PH licences in SA controlled by the Provinces and not a national body? I see this as a fundamental problem
* Does PHASA coordinate across all Provincial authorities to look after the interest of SA hunitng? Or is it just the members?

Yes, not all provinces require membership of PHASA to register but others do.

What influence has PHASA had on those govt. authoritys ?

PHASA exists to help its members, not as a watch dog.

Edit: Membership of PHASA does not imply they will look after you, the client. It means they can call on fellow members and their organisation for self help. Of course not all members are this self orientated.

I reckon that with the exception of the auction hunts the game laws in Zimbabwe are pretty good but the problem is they're not always (perhaps even rarely?) enforced properly and as I keep saying, the solution to that can only be found within Zimbabwe. Enforce the existing laws properly and the problem stops.

With regard to the auction hunts: These have gone on for as long as even I can remember and as far as I'm aware (stand to be corrected on this) pretty much anyone can buy them and they don't need to have a PH of any kind along on the hunts. - The problem and the solution with this is also obvious and again, can only be found within Zimbabwe....... but of course, one also has to remember that cessation of such auction hunts will be VERY unpopular with some hunters, including some hunters from around the world.

I'm sure that PHASA will be delighted to join forces with SOAZ & ZPHA etc but it's SOAZ & ZPHA that MUST take the lead and PHASA that follows rather than the other way around.

As for dodgy fly by night operators, there are plenty of them from all parts of Africa (including Zimbabwe) and elsewhere in the world. You can't blame any one country for them and the only way to police them is to catch, prosecute and punish them in the country where the crime is committed. and that also must raise the question of who books these hunts and why? - The punters either don't care about the legalities and book because of the price and/or are unaware the hunts are dodgy and that means they simply failed to do their research before they booked...... In either case, they almost deserve to what might happen to them. After all, it's not difficult to research a hunt nowadays is it?

As I've repeatedly said, I appreciate that Zim is an absolute and complete super, mega, bugly stuff of a place when it comes to Govt and law etc but no-one else can cure that for them and if the Zimbos can't cure it for themselves the the cold hard truth is that nothing can change........ I wish that were not the case but it is.

taking a leaf out of the arab spring may be what is needed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38YWB8iX7OY

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
Folks

First and foremost as Fair game pointed out despite conflicting views on the subject it has created an awareness, which is the first step in the right direction to attempting to solve the situation!

Steve many valid points have come out from these posts including the following

1/ An extraordinary number od South Africans have been involved in “dubious hunts” in Zim.

Buzz, spot on. Especially in the "early warvet days", I had numerous outfitters (bar one only) saying they could take clients across the border to the North for a quick cheap hunt. Presumably just bringing everything back with them across the border.

Maybe now less the common "every man and his dog" but still as everyone can see the same attitude.

I likened it back then to a "Goldrush" attitude, that the country was open slather after they had been excluded for so long, but also a loot and pillage attitude while it was possible.

Leaving Zimbabwe's wildlife the looser.

quote:

2/ Zim situation means that we cannot just “change em” with regards to the so-called “laws” – as much as we would like to.

Only idiots say "Zim should clean its own act up" when referring to the Mugabe corrupt regime and mini corrupt officials down the line to the bottom.

Or wanting to throw out misinformation/misdirection.

I wonder if the dollars behind "cover hunts" are behind the misinformation/misdirection efforts?

quote:

No one is actually accusing PHASA members of committing any crimes in Zim BUT we are asking that they publicly recognise that their fellow country men are involved and make a stand against ANY South African operating in Zimbabwe outside of “their code of ethics” which is obviously taking place

Name and shame them sounds like the way to go.

A couple of months ago there was an article in the African outfitter magazine with a nice picture of the reps of PHASA, AMOS, NAPHA, the Zim guy, the Bots, guy and I believe the Zambian guy.

The article was all about how these people got together and decided how they are going to tackle problems like the one Buzz just brought up.

The bottomline is that you have to go to your orginazation, lie the complaint and they must take it up with PHASA. They have AGREED with one another to look into these problems. If the crooked SA PH scumbag is not a member of PHASA, nothing will or can happen, UNLESS he is in contravention of any laws of your country, and then of course you have to deal with your police, which I think would be the right thing to do in the first place if the case is serious enough.......and we know where that can or cannot go....T.I.A.

The only reason why Ford's are the most smashed up vehciles on the road, is because they are the most driven.....the same with SA PH's....

John,

If Zimbabwe can't clean up it's own act (and I obviously appreciate they can't) then who can do and/or will it for them?....... No other individual, association or even country has that right.

The only way to do it is to remove Mugabe and his entire regime from power and replace it and an entire new govt, police and law and order structure with a responsible system that works as it should....... and there's no-one willing or able to do that or pay for it to be done.

Hell, even taking it to the ultimate extremes, they don't even have any oil to tempt other powers who could achieve that in to do it..... and even if they were tempted a quick look at a map will show you it's virtually impossible. There's no sea landings and air encroachment would require use of air space belonging to other African countries. Land invasion would also require use of other African countries for access and they'd never grant that kind of permission all the while they have a hole in their arse.

I'd love to see things change in Zimbabwe but the only way they will is when Mugabe croaks and even then, there's the rest of his lunatic regime to deal with...... My guess is that even when the old bugger does kick the bucket, nothing important will significantly change.

I honestly can't see any other workable solution than for Zimbabwe to sort their own mess out at least initially.

I'd love to see ALL the bad guys caught, tried and punished properly but even assuming all the crooks from outside Zim were caught, the ones inside Govt and PB etc probably won't ever be caught, let alone stopped and you can bet your life they'll be offering the same deals to new dodgy outsiders as soon as the first lot are taken out of the equation...... As for naming and shaming the bad guys....... I doubt they could even spell the word shame, let alone feel any.

It's actually staggering to think that what was once one of the finest countries in the world, let alone in Africa has been destroyed so comprehensively in such a relatively short time.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:

I honestly can't see any other workable solution than for Zimbabwe to sort their own mess out at least initially.

How many times do you have to repeat the same opinion. Its really boring.

And also a load of crap.

The people at fault in this mess are:

1. The clients booking cheap and nasty hunts with dodgy foreign outfitters, usually South African.

Hopefully these can be fixed up by loosing their trophies, rightfully withheld. And if they have acted illegally hunted illegally, etc, hopefully and should be prosecuted.

2. Dodgy booking agents. Name and shame. Expose them on the net, especially the BS artists and pretenders.

3. Dodgy SCI and similar branches and conventions. Name and shame until they exclude the dodgy agents and outfitters.

4. Dodgy Zim PHs. I reckon the Zim rules should be changed to require foreign "cover hunts" to book a Zim PH AND a Zim Outfitter business. Name and shame the dodgy ones.

5. Dodgy South African and other foreign outfitters selling the dodgy hunts.

This no. 5 seems to be what Buzz is referring to, but you keep "dodging" that point. That this is one area PHASA should take action, at least against members and with a statement.

quote:

It's actually staggering to think that what was once one of the finest countries in the world, let alone in Africa has been destroyed so comprehensively in such a relatively short time.

Its a ffffing disgrace. And the mercenary attitude of many players, loot and pillage attitude is so obvious to many from the outside of the industry.

1) I'm not aware of any proof that these guys are 'usually South Africans' (let alone PHASA members) but maybe I'm wrong. I've heard lots of innuendo but that's all and of course, for every South African, there has to be a dodgy Zimbo opening the door for him, another allowing him and his firearms over the border, another accompanying him in the hunting area and presumably others handling the dodgy paperwork.....

2) I'd bet that most (not all) don't even know the hunts are dodgy. A quick check of the hunts offered forum would probably turn up several agents who have offered and then withdrawn these hunts.

3) Took 'em a while to do anything about OoA but lets hope for a speedier response in these cases and of course, these cases can only be reported to the SCI ethics ctte by SCI members so let's hope they do file complaint.

4) The Zim game laws do already require a Zim PH & outfitter but at the risk of upsetting you and repeating myself, these laws are not always followed.

5) I agree as far as the statement goes and PHASA have been doing so for years but let's not forget the Zimbos mentioned in point 1.

I haven't dodged the point of 5 at all. I keep saying that PHASA can only do something about members of PHASA and the only thing they can do about them is revoke their membership of the association and most of the dodgy buggers are not PHASA members anyway. Therefore PHASA is completely powerless to do anything.

As I said before, if anyone has PROOF that any PHASA member has been involved in these shennanigans please feel free to pass the info to PHASA (or indeed to me (by PM if you prefer) and I'll pass it on)..... without proof they obviously can't do anything about it even if the guy concerned is a member.

As for trophies from dodgy hunts being rightfully witheld...... hmm. I seem to remember some years ago helping a certain Aussie who unknowingly got involved in a problem hunt and had his trophies witheld.... He asked me if I could help him out of a hole. I was able to use my connections, explain the problem to the relevent authorities who saw my point and released his trophies for me.

The problem hunt wasn't his fault at all but as I remember, he was helluva grateful to have his trophies back.......

Ban all cover hunts and non-Zim citizens from bidding on auctions and then watch how quickly PHASA takes action.

Perhaps someone can tell me what meaningful action they think PHASA could take that they have not already taken on several occasions?

The only things they can do is issue statements to members and possibly press that they don't approve of these dodgy hunts and revoke membership of any PHASA member involved and they already do those things.

quote:

The people at fault in this mess are:

1. The clients booking cheap and nasty hunts with dodgy foreign outfitters, usually South African.

Hopefully these can be fixed up by loosing their trophies, rightfully withheld. And if they have acted illegally hunted illegally, etc, hopefully and should be prosecuted.

2. Dodgy booking agents. Name and shame. Expose them on the net, especially the BS artists and pretenders.

3. Dodgy SCI and similar branches and conventions. Name and shame until they exclude the dodgy agents and outfitters.

4. Dodgy Zim PHs. I reckon the Zim rules should be changed to require foreign "cover hunts" to book a Zim PH AND a Zim Outfitter business. Name and shame the dodgy ones.

5. Dodgy South African and other foreign outfitters selling the dodgy hunts.

This no. 5 seems to be what Buzz is referring to, but you keep "dodging" that point. That this is one area PHASA should take action, at least against members and with a statement.

Gentlemen, There is absolutely no need for bashing each other as well as no point. It is obvious from the posts that we are all on the same side here. It is what we do and how we go about it that is in question. The biggest problem has barely been mentioned even though it is the source of all the other problems.It is the elelphant in the room that no one wants to talk about. Simply, there is little or no rule of law left in Zimbabwe. This regime has not only bankrupted the country financialy but morally as well. There is almost nothing that cant be bought or bought off. Allmost everything requires a bribe of some type. The average person now looks at this as a normal source of income. People who would not have thought of it before are now sucked into it. They see everyone around them making money by doing it from the highest echelons of the government to the lowest man on the street. As a result law or justice is no longer a moral and social instrument but now a comodity to be bought and sold like the virtues of ones wives and daughters. We can refuse to take part in some of the dodgy stuff going on. Apply a little pressure in making noise through various organizations if you think it will help. Personally only the return to a rule of law will make a difference. All of our internet justice is just a lot of hot air and I doubt it even gets noticed. I am open for real suggestions of change.

Mike

I agree with you, but to sit back and do nothing??

It is not the people who do evil that will ruin the world, but the people that sit back and do nothing.

It will only get worse before it gets better, I intend to be a part of the solution and thanks to several others like Buzz Charlton , John Sharpe etc I know we will get somewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

The people at fault in this mess are:

1. The clients booking cheap and nasty hunts with dodgy foreign outfitters, usually South African.

Hopefully these can be fixed up by loosing their trophies, rightfully withheld. And if they have acted illegally hunted illegally, etc, hopefully and should be prosecuted.

2. Dodgy booking agents. Name and shame. Expose them on the net, especially the BS artists and pretenders.

3. Dodgy SCI and similar branches and conventions. Name and shame until they exclude the dodgy agents and outfitters.

4. Dodgy Zim PHs. I reckon the Zim rules should be changed to require foreign "cover hunts" to book a Zim PH AND a Zim Outfitter business. Name and shame the dodgy ones.

5. Dodgy South African and other foreign outfitters selling the dodgy hunts.

This no. 5 seems to be what Buzz is referring to, but you keep "dodging" that point. That this is one area PHASA should take action, at least against members and with a statement.

Regarding points 4 and 5 there is not much we as "foreign hunter" can do. Only dodgy Zimbos and Dodgy SA PH's can do that. However, regarding points 1,2, and 3 only we can fix that. At the sheep show in Reno two SA outfits offered me hunts in Zim, mostly ele and buf. When I asked them if they were Zim PH's, they said "no, but there are ways to work around that." One also offered a buff hunt in Zambia. At least 10, maybe 12, of these guys were at SCI. Not one was a Zim PH and all had some "work around system." I said no thanks to them all, but now I wish I had taken names and started a list. Sci and all PH associations may or may not care, but we as potential clients can make a BIG difference by withholding our business from them all. The Zimbos have to remove the current regime, the SA guys have to expose the bad apples-neither is likely-but we could do our part and succeed if we are not guilty of greed and stop supporting the "dodgy ones."

Tom

quote:

Originally posted by twoseventy:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

The people at fault in this mess are:

1. The clients booking cheap and nasty hunts with dodgy foreign outfitters, usually South African.

Hopefully these can be fixed up by loosing their trophies, rightfully withheld. And if they have acted illegally hunted illegally, etc, hopefully and should be prosecuted.

2. Dodgy booking agents. Name and shame. Expose them on the net, especially the BS artists and pretenders.

3. Dodgy SCI and similar branches and conventions. Name and shame until they exclude the dodgy agents and outfitters.

4. Dodgy Zim PHs. I reckon the Zim rules should be changed to require foreign "cover hunts" to book a Zim PH AND a Zim Outfitter business. Name and shame the dodgy ones.

5. Dodgy South African and other foreign outfitters selling the dodgy hunts.

This no. 5 seems to be what Buzz is referring to, but you keep "dodging" that point. That this is one area PHASA should take action, at least against members and with a statement.

Regarding points 4 and 5 there is not much we as "foreign hunter" can do. Only dodgy Zimbos and Dodgy SA PH's can do that. However, regarding points 1,2, and 3 only we can fix that. At the sheep show in Reno two SA outfits offered me hunts in Zim, mostly ele and buf. When I asked them if they were Zim PH's, they said "no, but there are ways to work around that." One also offered a buff hunt in Zambia. At least 10, maybe 12, of these guys were at SCI. Not one was a Zim PH and all had some "work around system." I said no thanks to them all, but now I wish I had taken names and started a list. Sci and all PH associations may or may not care, but we as potential clients can make a BIG difference by withholding our business from them all. The Zimbos have to remove the current regime, the SA guys have to expose the bad apples-neither is likely-but we could do our part and succeed if we are not guilty of greed and stop supporting the "dodgy ones."

Tom

Tom,
You take the words out of my mouth!

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by twoseventy:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

The people at fault in this mess are:

1. The clients booking cheap and nasty hunts with dodgy foreign outfitters, usually South African.

Hopefully these can be fixed up by loosing their trophies, rightfully withheld. And if they have acted illegally hunted illegally, etc, hopefully and should be prosecuted.

2. Dodgy booking agents. Name and shame. Expose them on the net, especially the BS artists and pretenders.

3. Dodgy SCI and similar branches and conventions. Name and shame until they exclude the dodgy agents and outfitters.

4. Dodgy Zim PHs. I reckon the Zim rules should be changed to require foreign "cover hunts" to book a Zim PH AND a Zim Outfitter business. Name and shame the dodgy ones.

5. Dodgy South African and other foreign outfitters selling the dodgy hunts.

This no. 5 seems to be what Buzz is referring to, but you keep "dodging" that point. That this is one area PHASA should take action, at least against members and with a statement.

Regarding points 4 and 5 there is not much we as "foreign hunter" can do. Only dodgy Zimbos and Dodgy SA PH's can do that. However, regarding points 1,2, and 3 only we can fix that. At the sheep show in Reno two SA outfits offered me hunts in Zim, mostly ele and buf. When I asked them if they were Zim PH's, they said "no, but there are ways to work around that." One also offered a buff hunt in Zambia. At least 10, maybe 12, of these guys were at SCI. Not one was a Zim PH and all had some "work around system." I said no thanks to them all, but now I wish I had taken names and started a list. Sci and all PH associations may or may not care, but we as potential clients can make a BIG difference by withholding our business from them all. The Zimbos have to remove the current regime, the SA guys have to expose the bad apples-neither is likely-but we could do our part and succeed if we are not guilty of greed and stop supporting the "dodgy ones."

Tom

Tom,
You take the words out of my mouth!

Yep, that's exactly what we as agents and traveling sport hunters need to do! I have already gone on record stating that I will NOT support or book for any operator that is currently working within Nyakasanga/Sapi, until Zim Parks fixes the major abuses that are currently under-way. The unregulated slaughter of the lion in these areas alone, is repulsive! Same hold's true for hunts within the National Parks!

Fact is, I am NOT totally opposed to management hunts within Hwange, or Kruger for that matter. Especially considering the current state of affairs with the huge over-population of elephants. Frankly, I think it could be a good thing. BUT, the way its handled currently within Hwange for example, is simply a disgrace. Operators who are participating, be they Zim or SA guys - should be ashamed, IMO. Thus "twoseventy" says it best. We as hunters must NOT support any of these outfitters/PH's, at all. Not in any way, shape or form - IMO.

Now with that said, keep in mind that many of these guys are trying to do these things on the down-low. So, many of us might simply not be aware of who is an active participant. Thus I propose to the forum here the following. If you are aware of Outfitters/PH's or agents from anywhere who are either guiding, outfitting or selling/representing hunts in any of Zim's National Parks, or Nyakasanga/Sapi areas, that you bring it to the attention of the Forum. Then, we can contact these folks and ask them to give a brief statement explaining their position. Or, you can simply PM me - as I'm happy to ask them myself.

I certainly can't and won't speak for the outfitters/PH's, cause they certainly know what they are doing. But, considering the lack of knowledge that more than 75% of the Booking agents around the world have - in regards to the very hunts they are selling, I would not be surprised if some of them representing these outfitters/ph's, simply have no idea!

Anyway, that's my final take on the issue. I think if we as a GROUP stand up and confront these folks with the facts we are aware of, we stand a chance in getting some change. Once outfitters/PH's see that folks refuse to hunt with them as long as they are participating in said activities, I believe they will have a change of heart!

So, I'll start. I assure you all - with 100% certainty that BOUNA SAFARIS from SA is partly responsible for the huge abuse currently taking place within Nyakasanga/Sapi. I would encourage you all to spread the word, and please DO NOT consider any hunting opportunities with this operation.

Thank you,

quote:

So, I'll start. I assure you all - with 100% certainty that BOUNA SAFARIS from SA is partly responsible for the huge abuse currently taking place within Nyakasanga/Sapi. I would encourage you all to spread the word, and please DO NOT consider any hunting opportunities with this operation.

quote:

So, I'll start. I assure you all - with 100% certainty that BOUNA SAFARIS from SA is partly responsible for the huge abuse currently taking place within Nyakasanga/Sapi. I would encourage you all to spread the word, and please DO NOT consider any hunting opportunities with this operation.

Right on, Aaron!

Speak of the Devil! I would strongly suggest looking at the new thread by BigBoreCore - regarding Colorado Buck's hunt with Bouna Safaris.