It is no secret that the hunting in Zim is at a cross road as we speak with more and more controversial issues/ hunts been reported daily. While I am the first to admit that there are certainly a number of Zimbabweans that have a lot to answer for and that we need “ clean our own act up” a vast number of the questionable practices involve South Africans.

My question is why does PHASA ( South African Hunters association) not become more proactive in trying to put a stop to this. It is after all not only bad publicty for Zim but also sheds a very bad light on South African Phs as a whole which is an aweful generalisation.

It would be easy enough to make a list of SA fellows that are involved in Zim ,good or bad , if we initiated this would PHASA act or is it too close to home for them?

Buzz

I'm sure that you're aware PHASA is the PHs Association of South Africa and has no legal powers of prosecution or anything else for that matter...... all it can do to a member is suspend or revoke his (or her) membership if found guilty of various 'offences' and of course, that can only happen if the individual concerned is a PHASA member and membership of the national PH association is not mandatory any more than it is in Zim.

If you feel they have a role to play in the issue, why not simply ask your own PHA (or indeed any affected client) to contact them to discuss the issue...... After all, both associations maintain reasonably close contact with each other.

More broadly, let's not forget that cover hunting has worked well between the two countries for many years and as long as a locally licenced PH is present on a hunt in either country it's perfectly legal and legitimate......

Let's also not forget that a good many Zim PHs, including some very well known ones, also cover hunt in RSA and many other African countries on a regular basis.

There's also the issue of that for any PH from outside Zim to come into the country and operate illegally, there pretty much has to be a Zim citizen (often a Govt or PB official) involved in making it happen and they also deserve to be punished...... In fact, as I see it, the easiest and most effective way to put a stop to this illegal hunting is to catch and stop the Zim citizens responsible from making it possible.

I agree that any (outside) PH operating illegally/without a locally licenced PH should be caught and punished but as I've said before, let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Buzz and Steve:

I wonder how many South African P.H.'s have work permits and pay Zimbabwe taxes on income earned when they are paid for "accompanying" an otherwise legal hunt. See Zimbabwe visa rules

Personally, I wouldn't want to be in a camp when the tax and banking "cops" showed up and my "visiting" P.H. didn't have proof of legal status as a wage earner or business owner. Likewise, paying a "visiting" P.H. to hunt in Zimbabwe (if he/she doesn't have the permits, pay the taxes, etc.) would pretty obviously be a violation of the Lacy Act on the part of an American hunter.

Unfortunately (and in my past ignorance), I've been on one "cover" hunt in Zimbabwe. It was 20 or so safaris ago and I'll never do it again. Hunting Africa, regardless of the country, is full of enough surprises without adding another layer of possible issues (which all came to pass on my fiasco, btw). It just ain't necessary.

As for me, I've found that no "personal relationship" with any P.H. or few bucks saved is worth the angst of possible illegality (or the comfort of having my hand held) when, in every country that has legal hunting, there are reputable and capable companies and P.H.'s who can provide an excellent and legal experience in that country and in which they are licensed both to hunt and to earn income (and pay taxes, etc).

All that said, in Zimbabwe, it may be internally "legal" that Parks is granting permits to hunt "iffy" venues and communal authorities are selling quotas that shouldn't exist.... but, I wonder what would happen if the taxman showed up in Hwange or a confiscated farm and toted off a few foreign P.H's (and clients?) who were breaking employment and tax laws.

I think that'd stop the foolishness pretty quickly.

As a caveat, there are, of course, established and reputable alien companies who follow every Zimbabwean (or Botswanan or Tanzanian or Zambian) regulation, have the proper business licenses, employ resident (or legally licensed) P.H.'s, pay their taxes (both domestically and in Zim).... but hunting with the "hit it and go" guys that are taking advantage of a bribe here and there... not for me!

The Beatles (almost) got it right:

"Now my advice for those who die hunt
Declare the pennies on your eyes
'Cause I'm the taxman, yeah, I'm the taxman
And you're working for no one but me."

Back in 2008 (I think?), I was in a camp when the banking and tax cops showed up for a random audit. It wasn't a pleasant experience even though I was with a native Zimbabwe company and everything was in perfect order. I'm glad I didn't have a foreign P.H. with me with the wrong visa. Cells with straw floors aren't my preference.

JMHO.

quote:

More broadly, let's not forget that cover hunting has worked well between the two countries for many years and as long as a locally licenced PH is present on a hunt in either country it's perfectly legal and legitimate......

Shakari,

I do not think that is what he is talking about. He is talking about blatant illegal hunting activity, or, shady Zim operators allowing South Africans to hunt illegally, unethically, whatever.

Zimbabwe has the quite possibly the best trained ph's in Africa. That doesn't mean that there aren't some bad apples in the bunch.

I too think that PHASA should make a stand on the issue. "Anyone caught illegally hunting in Zim will have his membership revoked and, records kept on his activity for others to see."

No it is not incarceration, but it is a deterrent. If people want to break the law, they will. Just take a stand in the matter is all he appears to be asking.

+ 1 Steve, If its legal its legal.Whats the differance if a Booking agent accompanies his client on a Legal hunt, with a registered PH in a legal hunting area with a legal Outfitter.
Why is it illegal NOW just because he is a South African Outfitter acting as that booking agent?? whats the differance??

Illegal hunting is a differant matter , bribes etc but again this would not be possible for an Outsider if a local didnt show them how.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Buzz

I'm sure that you're aware PHASA is the PHs Association of South Africa and has no legal powers of prosecution or anything else for that matter...... all it can do to a member is suspend or revoke his (or her) membership if found guilty of various 'offences' and of course, that can only happen if the individual concerned is a PHASA member and membership of the national PH association is not mandatory any more than it is in Zim.

If you feel they have a role to play in the issue, why not simply ask your own PHA (or indeed any affected client) to contact them to discuss the issue...... After all, both associations maintain reasonably close contact with each other.

Steve - As you mention, PHASA has no real POWER, and certainly not every SA - PH is a member. I think the real issue here for guys like Buzz and myself is, they simply do nothing at all? At least taking a pro-active position to discourage any illegal activity, or questionable activity, would be a huge step in the right direction. Certainly no one blames PHASA, but IMO the silence speaks volumes.

Take for example the Nyakasanga issue that Lane and I have been railing against/working on. In 2011, 1 lion was issued at the auction - as has been the case for many years now. However, "7" lions were shot, not counting the two in RIFA which is totally legitmate, the 1 private land lion, and the 1 from Sapi, for a total of 11 male lions. 11 male lions shot in a very confined space, where only a couple years ago, a maximum of 4 were taken. The additional permits are issued by the Zimbos (certainly their fault) but the major player involved in the slaughter of the Nyakasanga Lion, is Bouna Safaris out of S.A., in coordination with 1-2 Zim guys to be named later!! Yes, I know that for a fact as I have talked to them personally.

PHASA should come forth, as should ZPHA, and make a public statement condemning such lude activity!!!

Buzz, Martin, Ganyana, any of you Zim guys who are really knowledgable about the area in which I speak of above. Tell us please, how long will a healthy Lion population, with a viable stock of mature lions be around, when the lions in Nyakasanga/Sapi/Mana Pools area, are allowed to be slaughtered at this pace???? My guess, NOT LONG AT ALL!!

So for change to occur, not only with questionable hunting within Hwange, but other instances when the limited resource of the country is simply being slaughtered for profit, who else would you suggest takes the lead? Both PH organizations in SA & Zim have a duty to act, in cases like this. Even if that action is merely a public statement/stance condemning said activities. If they do not, or are not willing to, then what good are they? A PH organization should do alot more than collect membership dues, and slap eachother on the back once a year at the annual banquet/awards ceremony!

But, that's JMO!

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:

quote:

More broadly, let's not forget that cover hunting has worked well between the two countries for many years and as long as a locally licenced PH is present on a hunt in either country it's perfectly legal and legitimate......

Shakari,

I do not think that is what he is talking about. He is talking about blatant illegal hunting activity, or, shady Zim operators allowing South Africans to hunt illegally, unethically, whatever.

Zimbabwe has the quite possibly the best trained ph's in Africa. That doesn't mean that there aren't some bad apples in the bunch.

I too think that PHASA should make a stand on the issue. "Anyone caught illegally hunting in Zim will have his membership revoked and, records kept on his activity for others to see."

No it is not incarceration, but it is a deterrent. If people want to break the law, they will. Just take a stand in the matter is all he appears to be asking.

I could not have said it better Wendell, that is precisely the point Buzz is making.

Regarding the statement that legal is legal, that is almost not worth taking the type space to address. I will give an example I have given before. If a corrupt ruler issues a "legal" order that says that a family's farm that has been in their family for generations can be seized for no compensation and given to others, are folks really prepared to say, "if it's legal, it's legal"? I think not. Yet, that is basically the same thing that is going on in Zim. South African PHs and outfitters are coming in and taking advantage of the rampant corruption to secure hunting rights that they argue are "legal" but that everyone knows are the product of corruption. That is wrong. And a professional hunters association that should be concerned about conservation, the future of the sport, hunting ethics, fair chase, etc. should not hesitate to take a stand against such practices.

The PHASA Mission Statement:

"PHASA supports the conservation and ecologically sustainable development and use of natural resources, for the benefit of current and future generations, through the promotion of ethical hunting."

If that is the case, they cannot stand by in silence given the situation in Zim without effectively repudiating their own mission statement by their inaction.

You blokes seem to think that PHASA have done and said nothing to their members to remind them they need to stay within the law but you're wrong.

They have reminded their members of that and as has been posted, their mission statement/website etc also says similar things...... As they have no legal powers within RSA, let alone in Zim, I fail to see what else anyone can expect them to do?

If the Zimbos want the scene (in their country) cleaned up, they need to first clean up their own back yard by nailing the Zim citizens who obviously use their positions and influence to allow these things to happen in the first place.

If PHASA are to be involved at all, it needs to be only after that clean up has happened and even then, can only happen if someone files an official complaint with them.

I've been a member of PHASA for over 20 years and often haven't agreed with many of the things they've said and done (and have sometimes come close to resigning over some issues) but I simply fail to see how anyone can consider them to blame in this instance.

Here's a couple of questions for you:

How many of you who are unhappy about what PHASA have said and done on this matter are members of PHASA and if you're not....... how can you know what they've said and/or done to their members in this regard?

How many PHs has PHASA kicked out for abusive practices in Zim?

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
How many PHs has PHASA kicked out for abusive practices in Zim?

Mike,

I don't know the answer to that and it'd be better directed to them rather than me but at least one to my knowledge.

I guess a related question would be, why wouldn't a group like PHASA use their bully pulpit to issue a statement or adopt a resolution condemning hunts in national parks in Zim by PHASA members or anyone else?

Question is not directed at you Steve, more of a rhetorical question.

Mike

Why would they?

PHASAs job is to represent the interests of the RSA hunting industry and their members...... and that's exactly what they do.

If someone complains to them about the behaviour of one of their members (whether within RSA or elsewhere) they'll investigate and take the necessary action if the 'accused' is found guilty. Other than that, or if the person concerned isn't a PHASA member, they can't do anything at all, even if they wanted to.

What needs to happen is for the country concerned to find THEIR citizens and all others who are involved in the skulduggery, punish and put them out of business and once that's done, the skellums from outside the country (most of whom probably aren't PHASA members anyway) can't get involved even if they wanted to.

As for statements and/or resolutions. Any PHASA member will know that sort of thing has been made several times already.........

The crimes (and they are crimes) are happening in Zimbabwe and that's where the preventative action should happen........ if the Zim authorities are too useless, too disorganised or too corrupt to take the relevent actions, thet's their problem and that matter should be addressed by the Zim hunting industry inside their own country and not elsewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
Likewise, paying a "visiting" P.H. to hunt in Zimbabwe (if he/she doesn't have the permits, pay the taxes, etc.) would pretty obviously be a violation of the Lacy Act on the part of an American hunter.

I understand your point, Judge, however IMO it's pretty silly to think that the Lacey Act obligates a hunter to engage in a personal investigation or audit to determine if a visiting South African Professional Hunter is paying his taxes to Zim officials. In 1981, Congress removed the proof standard of "willfully" from the statute, making "knowingly" the standard.

I have enjoyed the company of one such SA PH who both arranged our hunt and, along with a licensed Zim PH, guided our safari for a week, and for all I 'know' he had done everything legally. Besides, whether he paid his taxes or secured any required personal permits is beyond my reasonable ability to establish.

There are tax and licensing laws in every country in Africa, most often directed at that country's citizens. By your logic, even a Zimbabwean PH who fails to pay his Zim taxes would place the American hunter in jeopardy of violating Lacey. Do you really believe the Act obligates us as hunters to vet the administrative records of outfitters before using their services?

For the Zim hunting industry to whinge, whine and bleat about why RSA doesn't address a problem that occurs within Zim is like a bush African (how's that for a polite term! ) coming to a white man and saying 'hough, I hev a prrrroblemmm' which means he's about to make his problem, your problem so you can solve it for him.......

The problem occurs within Zimbabwe and that's exactly where it should be addressed, solved and ALL the wrongdoers concerned punished.

Hope that hasn't offended anyone (esp Buzz, whom I have never met but consider a gentleman) but that's how I feel about the matter......

Steve

As many have pointed out I think you misunderstood my post and took my shot at SA PHs in Zim personally. Please note I did say and I will reiterate again that there are many bad eggs operating with in Zim and yes myself and many others here agree -we certainly need to clean up our own act BUT we need as much help as possible and someone who I believe could be much more proactive is PHASA.

I agree for many years SA/ZIM have had a good working relationship however even you Steve will have to admit that that is not the case any longer. It is very much one sided. There are a number of Zim Phs that do do hunts in SA who if I am not mistaken have down the relavent exams/coarse ( as short as they may be!) and are qualified to guide in the provinces that they are qualified for- Andy hunter comes to mind.

These are legal and above board as are all the other great Zim Phs that have gone North in search of better pay such as Tanzania. They have all legally written relevant exams etc and paid the exorbitant annual fees hence helping those economies etc.

Just to be clear Steve I have no issue whats so ever with SA phs coming to Zim with their clients hunting with legit operators with the client paying normal daily rates and the Sa PH paying an observer rate ,for thats what he is, while accompanying his client here.

The problem I have is the SA "PH" that come in on the "ration hunts" which have been horribly abused. I also agree that on these hunts there is a Zim Ph that is as equally if not more guilty and we need the help of Phasa to punish/ban or at least publicly expose these guys while our relevant associations etc need to try and get the support of all the local authorities such as Parks, police etc to convict these guys.

The other issue that I have is the number of SA PH that are involved in our auction hunts in areas like Nyakasanga and Sapi. They do not need a Zim PH to legalise the hunt and I can assure you that the standards that they set are disgusting. The bribing of game scoutes to shoot more quota , leave wounded animals etc got so bad that when we in Makuti ( we shared the same game scoutes) go a game scout they would be bleak to be assigned to us as in their own words “ they did not have the opportunity of making money!” Again Steve our problem is to solve the reason our game scouts are accepting bribes which is not easy as you can imagine- however PHASA cannot just sit back and say until Zim cleans up its act it does not have to do any thing .I hope that clears up my stand> Cheers Buzz

Steve - I for one certainly do not blame PHASA at all, I blame those that are participating in said - bad actions! I would however, and if I am wrong, please show me. But I would like to see PHASA, along with ZPHA make a public statement against the questionable actions taking place in Zim. Just as PHASA has, ZPHA has a similar mission statement, and until both of them are publicly condemning the wrongful actions we all know are taking place in Zim, neither one of them deserves the title of conservation minded organizations.

Yes of course Zim is most responsible, no doubt. But to say until Zim fixes it all, the SA guys should just carry-on, is foolish!! "Sorry officer, I only took the rest of the money in the bank vault, cause the original bank robbers missed some! Had they go it all, I would have never stolen the rest" Now how's that for rationalization?

Both SA/Zim groups should work together to condemn all parties from participating in these bad deeds. We all know, "peer" pressure can carry alot of weight!

Regardelss of where you are from, if you are participating, you are part of the problem! The get-away driver is just as responsible for the bank robbery, as the guys who went into the bank and took the money. Separating who's "less" at fault is simply avoiding the issue all together!

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
For the Zim hunting industry to whinge, whine and bleat about why RSA doesn't address a problem that occurs within Zim is like a bush African (how's that for a polite term! ) coming to a white man and saying 'hough, I hev a prrrroblemmm' which means he's about to make his problem, your problem so you can solve it for him.......

The problem occurs within Zimbabwe and that's exactly where it should be addressed, solved and ALL the wrongdoers concerned punished.

Hope that hasn't offended anyone (esp Buzz, whom I have never met but consider a gentleman) but that's how I feel about the matter......

Steve:

What Buzz is recommending hardly constitutes 'whinging, whining, or bleating'; indeed, what he's suggesting seems to be in the self-interest of the South African PH community. Since you seem to acknowledge that the problem exists, don't you think a professional association like PHASA has a personal stake in the reputation of its members? If more than a handful of South African PHs are engaged in dodgy - if not outright illegal - activities in a foreign country, I would think that is very much the business of PHASA, unless the interests of PHASA are more fraternal than professional.

In all fairness, your not-so-subtle example between your "bush African" and a white man would only be accurate had you included the fact that the black African's problem was that friends of the white African were stealing from his property. In that case, unless his attitude was akin to PHASAs, the white African would indeed have a moral responsibility to act as though it was his problem.

Buzz

Please don't think I took your comments personally or considered them an insult..... I didn't.

RSA has for some years applied the Aliens Act of 1937 to non residents and any Zimbo who says he has been issued with a RSA PH licence almost certainly has an RSA connection that gives him right of residency. If not, one should question his status and local qualification.

I've never met Andy but we have several friends in common and as far as I know, I think you'll find he cover hunts in at least some of the Provinces..... and as I've said several times, that's perfectly legal and legitimate.

As for the other issues you mention. As I see it, these problems all occur within Zimbabwe and that's exactly where they need to be addressed.

If you feel the ZIM game laws are wrong. Change 'em.

If you feel the ZIM immigration and/or work permit laws for outside PHs are wrong. Change 'em.

If you feel your auction hunt rules are wrong. Change 'em.

This has got nothing to do with PHASA or (quite honestly) with RSA. The problem lies within Zim and that's where the solution needs to come from.

As I said, to expect the problem to be solved by anyone else is to think like an African. - This is Zimbabwe's problem and it needs to be solved by Zimbabwe and no-one else.

Anything else is foreign aid!

KPete

I honestly think that PHASA would be wrong to address the situation at all at the moment.

As far as I'm aware, no PHASA member has been PROVED to be involved and then gone unpunished.

If someone has proof of a PHASA member being involved in any criminal activity within Zim, they should report it to the relevent authorities within Zim who should then investigate and get ALL the culprits before the ZIM courts (using extradition agreements if necessary) and then have them punished by the Zim courts.

Once found guilty etc, they can then be reported to PHASA who I'm sure would then expel them...... until all that happens, then you're condemning a man without trial and possibly without justification.

If the Zim authorities are not organised enough or too corrupt to take those actions then it's them (NOT PHASA) that should be criticised and corrected.

Let's put it another way. If an American citizen crossed into Mexico and got caught committing a serious crime INSIDE Mexico, where would you expect him to be tried and punished? - It would be in Mexico not in America.

If the crime happens in Zimbabwe, that's where the arrest and punishment should take place and to expect another country to step in and do the job for you simply because the relevent authorities in your own country couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery is absolutely and comletely wrong.

Oh and BTW. I didn't say Buzz was whinging, whining and bleating. I said the Zim hunting industry is whinging, whining and bleating...... as far as I'm aware, Buzz speaks for himself not for anyone else.

also bTW. My example wasn't supposed to be subtle. It was supposed to avoid my using the word I was thinking!

quote:

There are tax and licensing laws in every country in Africa, most often directed at that country's citizens. By your logic, even a Zimbabwean PH who fails to pay his Zim taxes would place the American hunter in jeopardy of violating Lacey. Do you really believe the Act obligates us as hunters to vet the administrative records of outfitters before using their services?

I have no dog in this fight, but as I have read more about the Lacey Act on the AR and incidents that have taken place, I believe an American Hunter should air on the side of caution. USF&WS has repeatedly taken the stance of enforcing foriegn goverment rules on American citizens that were under the impression that what they were doing was perfectly legal.

Buzz + 1, well put

quote:

If you feel the ZIM game laws are wrong. Change 'em.

If you feel the ZIM immigration and/or work permit laws for outside PHs are wrong. Change 'em.

If you feel your auction hunt rules are wrong. Change 'em.

This has got nothing to do with PHASA or (quite honestly) with RSA. The problem lies within Zim and that's where the solution needs to come from.

+1 not all Outfitters are PHASA members and these so called "Bad Apples" get there stuff exported with so called legal paperwork etc etc etc.thats where you need to start.You have a legit complaint of a PHASA member behaving badly with clients they will investigate and expel him.
SCI has more clout than PHASA they can stop these guys at the conventions, stop them advertising stop the donations.
BUT IF THEY HAVE PAPERWORK - WHOS TO SAY ITS ILLEGAL??
what makes these illegal legal ZIM hunts more or less legal or illegal than the other ZIM hunts??? ALL THESE HUNTS ARE SANCTIONED IT SEEMS BY ZIM PARKS.
who is PHASA to question another countries legal permit authority??
This will have to start in ZIM.

P.S I really feel for you guys you are swimming upstream against your own country.(ZIM PARKS BOARD)
Good Luck

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
The problem lies within Zim and that's where the solution needs to come from.

As I said, to expect the problem to be solved by anyone else is to think like an African. - This is Zimbabwe's problem and it needs to be solved by Zimbabwe and no-one else.

Steve, you are a smart fellow and I am sure that you understand how ludicrous that suggestion is under current circumstances. You, as well as anyone, understand that what is happening in Zim is not akin to what happens in any country with a form of government even faintly resembling a democracy. To say, if you do not like the laws in Zim, change them, is simply asinine. It is when a situation gets to this point in a country like Zim that reputable entities and persons of conviction that are in a position to speak up, like PHASA, should and, in my opinion, have a duty to speak up. I go back to the example of farm seizures, I guess your response would be, if you don't like the laws that allow the seizure of farms for war veterans, "change 'em". You are not that naive. You would expect any fair minded group or individual to condemn such actions . . . and you should expect no less from PHASA in the present situation.

Where have we heard this before? Mozambique, Namibia, Zimbabwe...same old story. Just because it is possible, does not make it right.

Why would PHASA NOT publicly take a stance against such practices? If they are there for the support of their SA members, are they actually in favor of such activities ("get it while the gettin is good")? Of course NOT you say, ok then, why would they not want to make public their posture on the matter? If I were a PHASA member, I would not want to be associated with such skullduggerous individuals.

And YES, Zim needs to clean up it’s act. Martin, Buzz, I applaud your efforts!

And YES, hunters need to be more educated so that they make good decisions.

There is no single cure to this problem, noting that this is not the only threat that the wildlife of Zimbabwe faces. It is coming from all directions.

quote:

Originally posted by Crazyhorseconsulting:

quote:

There are tax and licensing laws in every country in Africa, most often directed at that country's citizens. By your logic, even a Zimbabwean PH who fails to pay his Zim taxes would place the American hunter in jeopardy of violating Lacey. Do you really believe the Act obligates us as hunters to vet the administrative records of outfitters before using their services?

I have no dog in this fight, but as I have read more about the Lacey Act on the AR and incidents that have taken place, I believe an American Hunter should air on the side of caution. USF&WS has repeatedly taken the stance of enforcing foriegn goverment rules on American citizens that were under the impression that what they were doing was perfectly legal.

In the case of taxes or permits, how would you suggest erring on the side of caution? Do you provide 1) audited copies of your taxes for review by potential hunters wishing to employ Shoestring Safaris; 2) notarized copies of all licenses and permits; and, 3) a contract financially indemnifying any hunter who, due to a legal shortfall on your part, may be prosecuted or fined under the Lacey Act? Of course not; that would be insane.

Nor is any of that required by the Act, either implicitly or explicitly. There is a threshold of both reasonableness (e.g., could the hunter reasonably have foreseen a violation) and knowledge (e.g., did the hunter actually know of a violation) in the enforcement of the Act. In my reading of Lacey, there would be an unachievable burden of proof on the government to find a hunter in violation for, as an example, hunting with an outfitter that unbeknownst to that hunter was in tax arrears - whether the hunt was in this country or overseas.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
Steve, you are a smart fellow and I am sure that you understand how ludicrous that suggestion is under current circumstances. You, as well as anyone, understand that what is happening in Zim is not akin to what happens in any country with a form of government even faintly resembling a democracy. To say, if you do not like the laws in Zim, change them, is simply asinine. It is when a situation gets to this point in a country like Zim that reputable entities and persons of conviction that are in a position to speak up, like PHASA, should and, in my opinion, have a duty to speak up. I go back to the example of farm seizures, I guess your response would be, if you don't like the laws that allow the seizure of farms for war veterans, "change 'em". You are not that naive. You would expect any fair minded group or individual to condemn such actions . . . and you should expect no less from PHASA in the present situation.

Well said, Mike.

quote:

Originally posted by Buzz Charlton:
I agree for many years SA/ZIM have had a good working relationship however even you Steve will have to admit that that is not the case any longer. It is very much one sided. There are a number of Zim Phs that do do hunts in SA who if I am not mistaken have down the relavent exams/coarse ( as short as they may be!) and are qualified to guide in the provinces that they are qualified for- Andy hunter comes to mind.

These are legal and above board as are all the other great Zim Phs that have gone North in search of better pay such as Tanzania. They have all legally written relevant exams etc and paid the exorbitant annual fees hence helping those economies etc.

Just to be clear Steve I have no issue whats so ever with SA phs coming to Zim with their clients hunting with legit operators with the client paying normal daily rates and the Sa PH paying an observer rate ,for thats what he is, while accompanying his client here.

The problem I have is the SA "PH" that come in on the "ration hunts" which have been horribly abused. I also agree that on these hunts there is a Zim Ph that is as equally if not more guilty and we need the help of Phasa to punish/ban or at least publicly expose these guys while our relevant associations etc need to try and get the support of all the local authorities such as Parks, police etc to convict these guys.

The other issue that I have is the number of SA PH that are involved in our auction hunts in areas like Nyakasanga and Sapi. They do not need a Zim PH to legalise the hunt and I can assure you that the standards that they set are disgusting. The bribing of game scoutes to shoot more quota , leave wounded animals etc got so bad that when we in Makuti ( we shared the same game scoutes) go a game scout they would be bleak to be assigned to us as in their own words “ they did not have the opportunity of making money!” Again Steve our problem is to solve the reason our game scouts are accepting bribes which is not easy as you can imagine- however PHASA cannot just sit back and say until Zim cleans up its act it does not have to do any thing .I hope that clears up my stand> Cheers Buzz

Buzz - Totally agree here 100%!

Now, I can't really say that I have an opinion one way or another on the so called "cover hunts", not even sure where that term came from? However, you make a good point, regarding what most PH's throughout Africa do to be legitmate/pay their fees, regardless of where they go. In 2010 I traveled to Tanzania for the sole purpose of sitting for the 2-day PH exam. I had a $3000.00 RT ticket, I now pay $3000.00 per year to keep my license current, and my work permit I believe is roughly $2k, per year. If you want to play, one should simply play by the rules, as outlined below.

"Cover Hunts" are one thing, but allowing SA - PH's or anyone for that matter, into Nyakasanga/Sapi to participate in/conduct DG hunts without a licensed PH, is mind-boggling to me! Yep, Zim Parks is responsible for that, and SA - PH's seem happy to take advantage of it. So they both are at fault! Exactly why PHASA & ZPHA should make public statements condemning said actions.

Mike

You miss my point entirely...... PHASA can't do anything at all because they have no right to get involved in another country and with people who are not PHASA members and/or have not been proved to be guilty of criminal activity in the relevent field. (pardon the pun)....... It's that simple.

They have and do regularly email their members reminding them of the rules in other African countries but they can't do anything else until (A) A PHASA member is PROVED to be involved in criminal activity and (B) the case is bought to their attention by someone such as the Zim authorities etc.

More generally.

I appreciate Zim is a complete stuff up with regard to many things, including game laws but how the hell is that anything to do with a PH association in a totally different country and where no-one, let alone a PHASA member has been PROVED to be guilty of criminal conduct........ they don't have a magic wand and they're not psychic for God's sake!

As I keep saying. Change and enforcement MUST first come from within the country concerned and without that no logical thinking person can expect PHASA to do anything about what until that change comes, can only be not much more than innuendo...... and to do otherwise lowers both the RSA PH association, the entire RSA hunting industry and the entire country of RSA to the same level as the once fine country of Zimbabwe has sunk.

There's a good many PHs from all over Africa, including Zim who cover hunt in many places including Tanzania but that's really the sensible way to do it in many cases....... if every PH had to pay the expenses of getting his PH licence in every country he operated in, the cost of African hunting would increase dramatically.

As for PHASA and the other PHAs etc making statements condemning illegal hunting...... The short answer is that they have and do make such statements relatively regularly........ Unfortunately the problem still persists.

At the end of the day the crime happens in Zimbabwe and therefore it has to be investigated and prosecuted in that country because that's the way international law works isn't it....... and yet again, if the Zim authorities can't or won't deal with the situation effectively there's nothing any other country or PHA can do about it.

Maybe you blokes should ask the UN to step in!

I for one would be delighted if they did!

Short of that, it has to be a Zim problem that can only be properly solved from within.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
Mike

You miss my point entirely...... PHASA can't do anything at all

Mike - And there you have it! PHASA can't do anything "at all"??? Not even issue a public statement questioning the ethics of hunting within a national park, or fellow South Africans contributing to the slaughter of game within the Nyakasanga/Sapi areas of Zim either. You have missed the point, just like the rest of us!

This is only a Zim problem, outsiders who are contributing/participating really should have no responsibility to act in accordance with what most rational folks would deem sound game management practices. As long as the Zim Parks allow it to happen, Bouna Safaris and other SA - Outfitters should not loose an ounce of sleep over shooting 9 lions within the Nyakasanga/Sapi area, of which there previously was only TWO. After all, its NOT their responsibility to work on behalf of the wildlife in which they profit from, its simply their duty to act within in the Law, and let the Zimbos worry about game management!

Now, just imagine if we all thought like that????

Steve, I think you get the point, my guess is that you are just choosing for reasons known only to you, to ignore the point. Fact is the point is too obvious to be missed.

PHASA can only address meaningful messages to their members and they DO that fairly regularly on this issue.

They also have a website that tells visitors that they (PHASA) expect their members to act legally and responsibly at all times and history, esp more recent history has proved they don't hesitate to expel members who don't.

What else can you expect them to do?

I don't know much about the auction hunts but think you'll find that anyone can buy these hunts and hunt without a PH at all....... I stand to be corrected on that but as far as I'm aware, that's the case...... and yet again, if people are unhappy with that then they need to address their complaint to Zimbabwe rather than elsewhere.

If crimes are being committed within Zimbabwe then it's the Zimbabwean authorities that need or have the right to do something about it......

All PHASA can do is issue a release to their members reminding them of the legalities of operating in other countries. AND THEY DO THAT ON A FAIRLY REGULAR BASIS AND HAVE DONE FOR YEARS!

If the criminals concerned are not PHASA members then the association can't do anything about it at all.

I really don't know what else they can be expected to do but if you guys do, I suggest you join PHASA and run for President of the association.

Mike

I loathe these bastards who are involved in the criminal activities as much as anyone else and I'd love to see the bunch of 'em tied to trees for leopard baits but I honestly can't see what you expect an association in a totally different country to do about the situation.

As I see it, simple law if nothing else dictates that any crime that's committed in any particular country can only be addressed (at least initially) by the authorities in that particular country.

However, what do YOU suggest could and should reasonably happen?

Alternatively, does anyone out there absolutely know and can positively prove that any PHASA member has been involved in these shennanigans? ....... and preferably has been found guilty of said conduct in a court of law?

If so, please let me know (PM if you prefer) and I'll be delighted to pass on all the relevent info to PHASA and will ask them to take the appropriate action.

quote:

Originally posted by shakari:
However, what do YOU suggest could and should reasonably happen?

Here’s a start, what about the immediate adoption by PHASA of a public statement along the lines of the following:

________________________________________________

PHASA Denounces Zimbabwe Hunting Abuses

The PHASA Board today adopted a resolution denouncing and condemning the hunting abuses taking place in the National Parks in Zimbabwe. Over the last several years there have been widespread reports of “ration”, “cull” or “management” hunts being conducted in Zimbabwe’s National Parks. Many of these hunts have been conducted by South African professional hunters and outfitters. While the hunts are ostensibly conducted under “permits” or “licenses” issued by Zimbabwe National Parks officials, the authority of such officials to issue such permits and the ethics of doing so are highly questionable.

PHASA, as an organization "dedicated to the conservation and ecologically sustainable development and use of natural resources, for the benefit of current and future generations, through the promotion of ethical hunting", condemns such hunts in the strongest terms. PHASA further announces that upon presentation of reasonable proof of any member of PHASA participating in such hunts, that member’s participation in PHASA will be subject to immediate revocation.

The preservation of one of Zimbabwe’s greatest national treasures, its wildlife, dictates that responsible sportsman, conservationists and hunting organizations everywhere join with PHASA in condemning these abuses.

________________________________________________


By the way here is the PHASA "Code of Conduct". Looks to me like several provisions are implicated and curiously the code is not limited to South Africa.

Code of Conduct:

Each member of PHASA shall commit himself, upon acceptance of membership, to this Code of Conduct whereby he:

• shall promote and observe the Aims and Objects of PHASA, the provisions of the PHASA Constitution and its By-laws;

• shall obey the laws of any country in which he operates at any time in professional hunting or related activities;

• shall conduct himself in a manner which will reflect honesty, integrity and morality and shall not allow material gain to supersede such principles;

• shall respect the natural resources of the country in which he hunts;

• shall respect the rights and interests of property owners and local communities;

• shall not misrepresent himself to clients or mislead clients in any way;

• shall take every reasonable step to ensure that his clients receive the services contracted for, and to ensure their safety, comfort and satisfaction; and

• shall not act in any manner that brings the good name of PHASA and it’s members into disrepute.

Mike

Firstly that'd be casting aspersions on the Zim PB which would probably cause them problems for years to come and surely if anyone is going to do that it should be the Zim PHA and secondly, they can only remind their members not to get involved in illegal practices...... and as I've repeatedly said, they do that on a regular basis.

However, if you feel that's what they should do, why not email the statement to them with the suggestion they adopt it?

Might be better than just waiting for some other bugger to do it huh!...... and whilst you're at it, perhaps you could get the Zim PHA to adopt a similar statement?

ADDED

As I keep saying, the problem occurs in Zimbabwe and the only real way to stop it is in Zimbabwe. Catch ALL the culprits and jail the lot of 'em....... but so far, I'm unaware of any PHASA member who has been proved to be and found guilty of being involved.

Buzz, I know you are pissed off about the situation there. The problem is Steve is right. Phasa can not enforce your countries game laws. Hell my friend, your organizations can't enforce them. How do you expect them to? I am not condoning any of this behaviour. In fact everyone involved with any of it should be prosecuted. The problem is when it is so far reaching and goes so high in the government is that possible? I love Zim and hate what is going on. I will support any real changes that can make a difference. Those changes however have to come from within. I suppose everyone could boycott and refuse to hunt there until the problem is fixed. I doubt you and any of the others who operate above board want that. Neither do I. That hurts everyone, especially the legimate operators. Those who operate illegally dont give a damn and will find a way around or just plain ignore it anyway. Phasa does make statements about the situation but in fact that is all they can do. they have no real power in their country either. There is no mandate to be a member let alone be one in good standing. In fairness the did expel Dawie and his ilk, not that it was anything more than a symbolic gesture. So suggestions?

Better yet, why wouldn't one of their own members, being true to organization's published Code of Conduct, suggest that they adopt it . . . .

I tell you what, I will spit in one hand and wish in the other for that result and see which one fills up faster.

Mike - Arguing with Shakari will result in the following