Hi Everyone
I am interested to know if any of you have in field comparisons or know of any that have been done to compare the big Nitro Express Rounds. While the shootability of each round is regularly discussed I have not found any conclusive data as to which of the three is most effective in the field.
While I realise that only penetration can be accurately measured, opinions on knock down from any long serving PH's/Experienced Big Bore hunters would be appreciated

Further to that does anyone have load information for any of these using monometal solids with drive bands like the GS Custom FN etc? Specifically velocity capabilities and regulation difficulties for doubles. Any info with regards to working up a load to regulate in a double and what acceptable accuracy would be?
These are all fairly wide open questions with a multitude of variables, but as doubles and Nitro Express rounds are new turf for me I am all ears

Thanks
Ian

Anyone who tells you he can actually see any difference in "killing" power between these rounds would lying through his nose

It is the same old wives tales.

There is no such thing as one caliber killing better than another, except in people's imagination.

Hit them in the brain, they die instantly, anywhere else, it is a guessing game.

I agree with Saeed. There's lots of people who will refer you to tests on a variety of mediums such as ballistic gel or wet newspapers etc, but really they don't prove anything except the penetration of that particular bullet with that particular load, in that particular test medium etc. Even when tested on animals it doesn't really prove much, because there are so many variables at work such as exact bullet placement and angles of shot etc.

I guess the closest you'll get to accurate information is to work out or look up the Taylor KO values of the various calibres. - If you need help with that feel free to let me have a list of the calibres you're interested in and I'll run it through the ballistics programme I have on my PC.

For load data, you can do no better than consult Gerhard at GS Custom. When it comes to loads and for that matter, ballistics etc, the man is a God!

Thanks Saeed and Shakari


I figured that it might amount to that. The KO's are of limited interest as I think that like wetpack testing they dont quite work out the same way in the field.

The real reason behind the question was the in field use of the cartridges for departing/angled shots. I know there is no substitute for a brain shot and that no rifle can knock any of the DG down in the falling over sense of the word.

I have read that the .577 has the least gain for the extra recoil and that the .500 seems to be the top choice in terms of penetration.
whether the extra frontal area on the .577 will make a difference with a badly placed brain shot is also something of debate. Has anyone ever looked to elephant or buff brains taht have had bullets graze the brain etc.
Its all really throwing ideas in the air to see if there are any of you that have any "hunches" or convictions based on in field experience that would possibly swing in favor of one or the other in a hypothetical situation.

Steve - I did get in touch with Gerard, he strongly sides with the .500 and some FN's
I will send you some info to run through your PC and see what gives.

Thanks for taking the time to answer, all input is appreciated
Thanks
Ian

Hi Ian,

I guess I'm biased towards the 500 because I use one myself but FWIW, I've found the 500 and the GSC FNMS is an excellent combination.... certainly the best I've ever used. A close second to the 500 is the 3 inch 458 Stewart that a buddy of mine uses. The advantage of that is that you can use 458 WM, 458 Lott and 458 Stewart 3 inch in the same rifle.

Hi Steve
Thanks for that.
I have just built my .458 lott on a Vector Model 70 action.
I looked a the 458 3" but decided against it as I think that the Lott is fine for most and is an exact fit on this particular action. I have to say I like all of the 500's but the economics of shooting the lott along with the 458 advantage were what swung me towards it. It is going to see a lot of use in my Field Guide training so I cant be counting the shots if I want to do my training along the lines of what the KNP guys used to do when the trails section was still something of note. Basically putting a lot of lead down range
The .500 question is because I am looking at a double. Mostly for my dryland Hippo plans. Its all still a way off, but I am keen to see what is out there in the educated opinion polls.

The more I read about the GS bullets the more I like them. In line with what you have said they seem to be top notch in the .500 class.
I have actually just signed up with Gerard to set up a dealership in KZN. No one was doing anything with them down there and I know a few guys who were dead keen. So I took the plunge and set it up. Just put the first order through and will be receiving them when I get back at the end of October.
Got ADIHEX here in the meanwhile too so will hopefully get to handle some nice doubles and ease the withdrawals a bit.
Anyway., chat soon
Ian

Well, I disagree with Saeed. Unless Taylor was somebody's wife. Who knows?

As far as you just dreaming up questions, good luck finding anyone around here that has any extensive, non-anecdotal comparative experience with those three.

quote:

I know there is no substitute for a brain shot and that no rifle can knock any of the DG down in the falling over sense of the word.

The first part of this quote is right on, but the second is way off. If you're using enough rifle, you can knock an elephant down or knock it out with a missed brain shot. Its not something to count on, especially with bulls but it happens frequently with a close miss. Using a 458wm, shooting 450gr solids at 2190fps or 500gr solids at 2145fps I've seen it more than I'd like to admit (since each time it happened meant I missed the brain shot.) A knocked out or down elephant makes it relatively easy to deliver a second killing shot.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
As far as you just dreaming up questions, good luck finding anyone around here that has any extensive, non-anecdotal comparative experience with those three.

My thoughts also, Will.

Ian, the very thing that Will stated is why I look at the calibers of the hunting PH's (in this case PH's who used heavy caliber DR's)from the last century who shot thousands of big game animals with inferior bullets compared to bullets we have today for my guidance and direction on a big DR. They survived their hunting years by (1) Being a good shot and (2) The penetration of the bullets from their DR's did the job.

Dirk

Thanks Guys
Appreciate the input. My reference to "knock down" was in the sense of the mythical rifle that will physically move the animal in question through expended energy or what ever, knock out punch style, not CNS related as you mentioned.

We have all heard the stories of Elephant going down to a near misses, would be interested to know how near the miss was and which calibers/velocity was noted as having had the most "margin for error" for lack of a better term.

Dirk I agree with the reference to the hunters of old and the rifles etc that they used, what I would be interested to try and compare would be the advantage gained through modern monometal bullets etc.
I am very interested in any experience you have had with your .500 that may have further backed up the theories of old.

I have no problem with anecdotal experience from anyone who has hunted large mammals before if they believe that it works in practice. That is exactly the kind of stuff we need to hear more of as it is then no longer anecdotal but rather current based on your experience.

While the era of the "Great White Hunters" may be in the past there are still a hell of a lot of great hunters around, they may not count their conquests by the thousand but they sure have studied the topic with the enthusiasm and dedication to their sport that is required to sieve
Thanks for the input
Ian the wheat from the chaff. So in this vane, if some of you are holding back based on my first post I would say please feel free to share as inevitably if there are several who may support a view based on experience then it may be that it warrants further investigation. Collective knowledge serves to back up or dispel theories and ultimately can help us all.

John Taylor of the old school probably had as much experience with the super big bores as anyone so he is worth listening to. Of modern hunters, Sullivan, Rhann and Calitz probably are also knowledgeable in this area.

I have taken 14 elephants with initial head shots mostly frontals but some side on also. In all but one case they were killed, knocked down or knocked down and knocked out with the first shot. I used the 458 Winchester, 465 Nitro, 470 Nitro and 458 Lott. The one that wasn't was hit about 3" above the brain and it turned and ran off (we did recover it though). In several of these cases the bullets hit to the right or left of center line on the forehead. In these cases the bullets must have passed though the outer lobes of the brain based on the bullet paths. Consequently, I believe that it is possible to hit the brain and not instantly kill an elephant. By the way these were all taken with Woodleigh RN steel jacketed solids.

465H&H

As a folow up to your second question, I haven't reloaded for the calibers you mentioned but have used North Fork CPs and solids and Bridger solids in my 470. The same weight bullets with the same powder charges I use for the Woodleighs shot to very similar velocities and had exactly the same impact points as the Woodleighs.

465H&H

I disagree with Saeed as well. I just do not correspond with my experiences. On a clean brain shot - ok caliber doesnt matter, but on a shot that misses the brain by a small margin - there will be difference in my opinion. On a heart shot as well. A BIG DIFFERENCE on an elephant heart shot with a .375 or a .577.

But whether there is noticable difference between a .500, a .577 and a .600 I dont know..

Personally I've never seen a big game animal that can tell the difference between a 458 Lott (etc), 470 or 500 etc etc when the bullet hits 'em in the right place. Hit 'em in the wrong place and you're gonna have trouble whatever the calibre.

Of course, it goes without saying that the calibres at either end of the scale might perhaps show more difference, but an awful lot of that then depends on the person holding the rifle. There's a guy in my local GD that uses a 300 WM for all his animal control work and doesn't have any problems........... but that doesn't mean it's a suitable DG calibre for everyone..........

quote:

Originally posted by Vlam:
Appreciate the input. My reference to "knock down" was in the sense of the mythical rifle that will physically move the animal in question through expended energy.
Dirk I am very interested in any experience you have had with your .500 that may have further backed up the theories of old.

Ian, I'll share my very limited experience with the 500 and with ele cows (2 to be exact). My convictions thus far lean toward the KO theory being more than just conjecture. John Taylor was before his time and I believe shared some objective evidence that he experienced. Anyway here are my two cents worth. I was using a Heym 500 N.E. with 540grain GS solids @ 2115fps.

#1 Cow elephant: Was shot at 5yds ele was moving-charging so being a novice, not Richard Harland, I aimed for the ear hole at a 30 degree angle (cow elephant was focused on Buzz Charlton's bright blue shirt ) knowing I was not shooting at the brain but the brain-spine junction I missed the spine by 1-2inches ele cow was stopped, staggered and about to go down when my son shot his 375Ruger (not three inches apart from my shot) and hit the spine. Objective evidence mixed with conjecture; the 500 not hitting the spine or brain still stopped the charge, would a 375 do the same, I don't know.

#2 Cow ele:
I shot this ele from the side at 17 yds. PH Rex Houts said it was a perfect side brain shot BUT WE WERE STANDING IN A DEPRESSION below the ele so the shot literally went an inch high of the brain, no problem, ele went down as though pole-axed, would a 375 have done the same, again, who's to know, probably a man named John Taylor who shared in his book big calibers have an inherit KO factor and my limited experience to date say's KO does make a difference.

I think Taylors Knockout Value is a load of bloody rubbish!

It is a good arguing point, but, as far as I am concerned, it has nothing in reality.

A load of blooding rubbish? Surely you jest!

Maybe a load, or maybe bloody, but both?

One should take Taylor's Knock Out Values for what they were originally intended.

Taylor was an elephant hunter. That is what they were intended for and not buffalo, lion, etc.

When you ding an elephant and miss the brain but are close enough, whatever that is, it will at the least stun and at the best knock them flat unconscious. Unconscious? Yeah, I thought that Taylor might be stretching the truth a bit but have indeed done it. Now I am a true believer.

The trick is to recognize when an elephant is knocked out and when it is brained.

On a video I watched a while back the hunters claimed that it was brained but when they reappeared on the scene and put in a "finisher" the elephant was jerking around and hence showed that indeed the elephant wasn't brained. Why one would need a finisher when it was supposedly brained is beyond me.

The point is that there are many brained elephant that are not actually brained but are incapacitated by being knocked out, knocked down, or stunned sufficiently that the hunter gets a second chance.

On the other hand if you barely miss the brain on a buff he just gives you the finger, or a load of bloody hooked horn.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
One should take Taylor's Knock Out Values for what they were originally intended.

Taylor was an elephant hunter. That is what they were intended for and not buffalo, lion, etc.

When you ding an elephant and miss the brain but are close enough, whatever that is, it will at the least stun and at the best knock them flat unconscious. Unconscious? Yeah, I thought that Taylor might be stretching the truth a bit but have indeed done it. Now I am a true believer.

The trick is to recognize when an elephant is knocked out and when it is brained.

On a video I watched a while back the hunters claimed that it was brained but when they reappeared on the scene and put in a "finisher" the elephant was jerking around and hence showed that indeed the elephant wasn't brained. Why one would need a finisher when it was supposedly brained is beyond me.

The point is that there are many brained elephant that are not actually brained but are incapacitated by being knocked out, knocked down, or stunned sufficiently that the hunter gets a second chance.

On the other hand if you barely miss the brain on a buff he just gives you the finger, or a load of bloody hooked horn.

I personally think that Taylor got it about right for the original purpose which as Will says was Elephants. It's actually bloody remarkable to think that he did it all with a pencil and paper sitting in the middle of the bush, without calculators, computers or internet etc. He must have been one of those clever bastards that Ian Drury sang about.

Who is Ian Drury?

465H&H

I have spoken personally with three elephant hunters whose collective bags on ele add up to many THOUSANDS. These are guys that lived in Africa all their lives (not just made the occasional safari over a number of years) and between them have well over 100 years experience at hunting DG.

Their views on this subject are diametrically opposed to those of Saeed. I think the statement " there is no such thing as one calibre killing better than another, except in people's imagination" is misleading. If that's the case let's dispense with the big bores and all convert to .22 Hornets.

Believe who or what you want. (it's a bit like politics and religion) I know whose opinions I value the most.

I have zero experience here. It

seems sensible to think though,

that a near miss of an elephant's

brain with a round that delivers

higher energy than the next round,

deep into the skull, would have

a greater stunning affect. So,

given that modern solids will

stay together and penetrate deep

enough in all the large calibers

if enough velocity is developed,

I'd guess the 600 would have the

greatest "stunning" affect when

the brain is missed, then the 577,

then the 500. It just seems logical

to me. I look forward to some

hunter proving it one way or
the other.

I saw an elephant knocked down twice with missed brain shots from a 416 Remington (very close misses) before the fourth shot killed him. All 4 shots were delivered in less than 5 seconds and you could cover all 4 with the palm of your hand.
It was an educational experience for me.

pichon1, I think you mis -read Saeed's statement, he was talking about 500, 577 & 600 Ne. You are the one who inserted the 22 hornet.

I am not an accomplished African hunter, have only been to Tanz. once. I think Saeed has probably taken more African game by far then anyone else who post here.

I am not a rifle snob, but I do own a 450/400, it replaced my 470 Ne Heym, that replaced my 470 Merkel. I like guns that i can SHOOT ACCURATELY and I HATE muzzle brakes. Too many people read about how you need a 500 NE or 458 Lott to hunt buff. That is just ridiculous.

As I posted before the PH that I hunted with in 06 culled MANY elephants doing government culling, they used 30/06 and never had any problems as long as they did their part.

I am not advocating small calibers for dangerous game, but a person should not shoot a gun they are afraid of. The PH that I hunted with was on television, Donald Trump JR. and Jay Cochrain hunted with him. Both of them wounded a buff that was not recovered shooting their double rifles, but both killed other game cleanly with their scoped bolt rifles. Does this tell us something.

quote:

as long as they did their part.

But it is not the point.

You can kill most anything with a 30-06 or a 375 or whatever. It is when one screws up that the big guns can make a difference.

Is there anyone alive that has not culled hundreds if not thousands of elephant?

I've had PH's swear that some of the elephant I have brained were not! Give me a frigging break. Not every PH is God. Really.

Some of the fellows who cropped eles in driven slaughters used small bores, but each had a partner backing him up with a bige bore. Every fellow who I have read about or know who did real PH plus trackers vs herd culling used a big bore.

I would be more than happy to shoot an elephants at 50yds with a 30-06 with 220gr solids. No big deal. S--t, put a scope on it to make things easy, no field of view issues or perspective issues or elephant coming from the side issues at 50 friggin' yards...

Put that same elephant at ten yards and my 458wm ain't enough. But the 458wm will turn them when it all isn't so perfect and drop them way more often than not, allowing for a "relaxed" insurance shot.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Anyone who tells you he can actually see any difference in "killing" power between these rounds would lying through his nose

How many elephants have you killed or seen killed with the .600 NE? I have not killed any or seen any killed with that caliber, so I cannot personally say how it will perform.

Anyone who thinks bigger is not better ought to hunt everything with a .30-06, or maybe even a 7x57mm.

They're plenty big enough, no?

I wish AFRICAN HUNTER would jump in here as he is one person that I know has hunted with many different Nitro calibres, including some of the BIG ones.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
Who is Ian Drury?

465H&H

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=_w24CygIx3o

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Dury

I guess he was a product of his time, but he wrote some very funny songs!

We sit in camp and laugh at all the stories written how a 416 kills so much better than 375! And a 458 kills so much better than a 404!

They do, of course, in the dreams of the writers.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
We sit in camp and laugh at all the stories written how a 416 kills so much better than 375! And a 458 kills so much better than a 404!

They do, of course, in the dreams of the writers.

Agree with you on that - difference is marginal between a 375/416 and 404/458. But not between lets say a .375 and a .500 / .577/.600

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
We sit in camp and laugh at all the stories written how a 416 kills so much better than 375! And a 458 kills so much better than a 404!

They do, of course, in the dreams of the writers.

Sounds you must have a jolly good time...you know all that laughing while you are preparing your cannons for the next days hard slog, what fun.

Saeed, with all of the banter about the bigger bores being better for dangerous game than .375, do you think there may be a lot of compensation for other smaller matters going on here? Like perhaps shot placement or phallic size?

Thanks,

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Saeed, with all of the banter about the bigger bores being better for dangerous game than .375, do you think there may be a lot of compensation for other smaller matters going on here? Like perhaps shot placement or phallic size?

Thanks,

jfm

Please entertain us with your extensive experience,

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
We sit in camp and laugh at all the stories written how a 416 kills so much better than 375! And a 458 kills so much better than a 404!

They do, of course, in the dreams of the writers.

Is Roy also laughing with his 460 Wby?

Although it was with a hippo, not an elephant, I've seen the effect Taylor was talking about.

Hit a little low, hippo went down. Then he got back up after another pod member ran over him.

Will, I don't have to.
I'll let Saeed do my talking as his experience is much greater than yours or mine or anyone elses on this forum.
So you wrote a book on hunting one time because you hunted a few elephant. Are you the expert now or do the experts hunt and not write? I wrote a book once about technical writing and I admit I am not anywhere near a professional. Others with more experience than I are much more professional. Oh well?
Oh ye of little xxxxx.

quote:

Originally posted by jfm:
Will, I don't have to.
I'll let Saeed do my talking as his experience is much greater than yours or mine or anyone elses on this forum.
So you wrote a book on hunting one time because you hunted a few elephant. Are you the expert now or do the experts hunt and not write? I wrote a book once about technical writing and I admit I am not anywhere near a professional. Others with more experience than I are much more professional. Oh well?
Oh ye of little xxxxx.

Well that was a rude and stupid answer. Why not listen to PH`s or National Park Officers who have done extensive hunting and culling of elephants. Their experience far exceeds any other. They all (or most of them) say that you can kill eles with small calibers with no problems under ideal circumstances, but when things go south you better stick with a big bore..

Buffalo, mia culpa.

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