quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Anyone who tells you he can actually see any difference in "killing" power between these rounds would lying through his nose

How many elephants have you killed or seen killed with the .600 NE? I have not killed any or seen any killed with that caliber, so I cannot personally say how it will perform.

Has anybody here actually used a .600 NE on elephant?

No?

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Anyone who tells you he can actually see any difference in "killing" power between these rounds would lying through his nose

How many elephants have you killed or seen killed with the .600 NE? I have not killed any or seen any killed with that caliber, so I cannot personally say how it will perform.

I haven't killed anything with a 600NE, although I do have that caliber, and enjoy shooting it at the range.

If I thought it was necessary, I would have used it, or anyone of the large calibers I have.

We have gone so far off the track from the original question.

This is becoming like that old argument.

Which calibers kills deer better.

The 270 Winchester, the 280 Remington or the 30-06 Springfield.

To some, I am sure the 30-06 kills better than the 280, and the 280 kills better than the 270.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Anyone who tells you he can actually see any difference in "killing" power between these rounds would lying through his nose

How many elephants have you killed or seen killed with the .600 NE? I have not killed any or seen any killed with that caliber, so I cannot personally say how it will perform.

I haven't killed anything with a 600NE, although I do have that caliber, and enjoy shooting it at the range.

If I thought it was necessary, I would have used it, or anyone of the large calibers I have.

We have gone so far off the track from the original question.

This is becoming like that old argument.

Which calibers kills deer better.

The 270 Winchester, the 280 Remington or the 30-06 Springfield.

To some, I am sure the 30-06 kills better than the 280, and the 280 kills better than the 270.

The thread asked which provides greater knock down power and penetration. There is nothing limiting the discussion to killing. I don't think anyone here argues that a perfect brain shot with a 570gr 500 isn't as effective as the same perfect shot with a 900gr 600 or even a 375.

You are trying to reshape the question.

While I certainly don't know the answer I do know that there is a hell of a lot of difference between, the 500 and the 600. Certainly more knock down effect than your favorite medium bores.

JPK

quote:

I don't think anyone here argues that a perfect brain shot with a 570gr 500 isn't as effective as the same perfect shot with a 900gr 600 or even a 375.

I would certainly argue that a perfectly brain shot elephant with a 375 would dropped dead as if pole axed just as if he is hit with any caliber.

If you believe otherwise, that is, of course your choice.

"knockdown" effect has absolutely no meaning in hunting in the real world.

Hit an animal in the brain, and he will drop dead, regardelss of caliber.

Break his spine, and he will dropd in his tracks, regardless of caliber.

I think some of you here have seen far too many Hollywood movies.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

I don't think anyone here argues that a perfect brain shot with a 570gr 500 isn't as effective as the same perfect shot with a 900gr 600 or even a 375.

I would certainly argue that a perfectly brain shot elephant with a 375 would dropped dead as if pole axed just as if he is hit with any caliber.

If you believe otherwise, that is, of course your choice.

"knockdown" effect has absolutely no meaning in hunting in the real world.

Hit an animal in the brain, and he will drop dead, regardelss of caliber.

Break his spine, and he will dropd in his tracks, regardless of caliber.

I have read about some people surviving being brain shot with a .22. Am yet to read about anyone surviving being brain shot with a .600.

However I'm sure someone will find an example.

Calibres are a bit like people really, they were all created equal.

quote:

I am sure the 30-06 kills better than the 280, and the 280 kills better than the 270

Saeed,

I am glad to see you finally agree.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

I don't think anyone here argues that a perfect brain shot with a 570gr 500 isn't as effective as the same perfect shot with a 900gr 600 or even a 375.

I would certainly argue that a perfectly brain shot elephant with a 375 would dropped dead as if pole axed just as if he is hit with any caliber.

If you believe otherwise, that is, of course your choice.

"knockdown" effect has absolutely no meaning in hunting in the real world.

Hit an animal in the brain, and he will drop dead, regardelss of caliber.

Break his spine, and he will dropd in his tracks, regardless of caliber.

I think some of you here have seen far too many Hollywood movies.

No one is arguing this point regarding the effects of one cartridge vs another when your brain shot (or spine shot) is perfect (and the cartridge and bullet selection adequate to reach the brain - like a 220gr solids from a 30-06...as opposed to a 165gr soft from the same rifle), and it isn't even a part of the original question.

You continue to try to refocus the thread away from the original question, which is which of the 500, 577 or 600 has more knock down effect or penetration.

Personally, I have knocked down or down and out out more than a half dozen elephants with less than perfect brain shots, it is a relatively common occurance and has been something that professional ivory hunters relied on so your contention that it has no meaning in the hunting world is utterly without merit.

JPK

Give me a break you guys. I know that bigger is better than smaller on DG. Bigger hole, more momentum, better blood trail, etc., etc. Sometimes sarcastic humor will get you no where.

Sorry,

jfm

Those who say that there is no such thing as knock down affect are fighting over 100 years of experience by thousands of elephant hunters all over Africa. No one would want to carry around a 10 1/2 lb 470 or 13 1/2 lb 577 when he could carry a 7 lb 30-06 assuming they had equal charge stopping affect. Those that maintain such a position and advocate the use of lesser calibers endanger the less knowledgeable first time elephant hunter. A 375 may be suitable for a client if but only if he is backed up by a professional with a serious elephant stopper.

465H&H

This is an old arguement..My personal opine is the bullet must graze the brain to knock an elephant out. I have shot only two elephants but I have witnessed many kills and that is the conclusion I have come to..but the bottom line is I don't really care!

I am convinced. This year I will leave my .500 A-Square at home and just chuck spuds!

Are those them special flat nose Idaho spuds?

Is there anyone on here who knows anyone who has shot an elephant with the 600 NE??

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I wish AFRICAN HUNTER would jump in here as he is one person that I know has hunted with many different Nitro calibres, including some of the BIG ones.

N E 450 No2
AfricanHunter's wife here, AH has a virus in his eye and is kind of laid up, cannot read much, out of focus and bad depth perception. If he gets over it in 2-3 more days, he'll be on and have some imput. Meanwhile do a search, he thinks he has covered this in the past.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Is there anyone on here who knows anyone who has shot an elephant with the 600 NE??

Hey Dan,
it's starting to look like the answer to your (extremely valid) question is a resounding no.

I wonder if there is anyone on AR who has shot an ele with a .577 Nitro as well.

I would rather listen to someone who has "been there and done that" than rely on theories.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

I don't think anyone here argues that a perfect brain shot with a 570gr 500 isn't as effective as the same perfect shot with a 900gr 600 or even a 375.

I would certainly argue that a perfectly brain shot elephant with a 375 would dropped dead as if pole axed just as if he is hit with any caliber.

If you believe otherwise, that is, of course your choice.

"knockdown" effect has absolutely no meaning in hunting in the real world.

Hit an animal in the brain, and he will drop dead, regardelss of caliber.

Break his spine, and he will dropd in his tracks, regardless of caliber.

I think some of you here have seen far too many Hollywood movies.

No one is arguing this point regarding the effects of one cartridge vs another when your brain shot (or spine shot) is perfect (and the cartridge and bullet selection adequate to reach the brain - like a 220gr solids from a 30-06...as opposed to a 165gr soft from the same rifle), and it isn't even a part of the original question.

You continue to try to refocus the thread away from the original question, which is which of the 500, 577 or 600 has more knock down effect or penetration.

Personally, I have knocked down or down and out out more than a half dozen elephants with less than perfect brain shots, it is a relatively common occurance and has been something that professional ivory hunters relied on so your contention that it has no meaning in the hunting world is utterly without merit.

JPK

Hey JPK,
I like to see that word "personally" in your post. You have clearly seen knock down/out effect in the field and therefore your attesting to it's validity is good enough for me and a myriad of others. Also, as you said it's something that has been relied upon by ivory hunters for decades and written about extensively.

However there will always be those who like to dispute the "bleeding obvious", good luck to them. They are probably members of the Flat Earth Society as well.

Mrs. African Hunter
Thanks for your reply. Tell Him I hope he gets well soon.

Dan
I do not know if African Hunter has killed an elephant with a 600, but I think he has killed them with a 577 and a 500 as well as a 450 No2.

quote:

Originally posted by pichon1:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

I don't think anyone here argues that a perfect brain shot with a 570gr 500 isn't as effective as the same perfect shot with a 900gr 600 or even a 375.

I would certainly argue that a perfectly brain shot elephant with a 375 would dropped dead as if pole axed just as if he is hit with any caliber.

If you believe otherwise, that is, of course your choice.

"knockdown" effect has absolutely no meaning in hunting in the real world.

Hit an animal in the brain, and he will drop dead, regardelss of caliber.

Break his spine, and he will dropd in his tracks, regardless of caliber.

I think some of you here have seen far too many Hollywood movies.

No one is arguing this point regarding the effects of one cartridge vs another when your brain shot (or spine shot) is perfect (and the cartridge and bullet selection adequate to reach the brain - like a 220gr solids from a 30-06...as opposed to a 165gr soft from the same rifle), and it isn't even a part of the original question.

You continue to try to refocus the thread away from the original question, which is which of the 500, 577 or 600 has more knock down effect or penetration.

Personally, I have knocked down or down and out out more than a half dozen elephants with less than perfect brain shots, it is a relatively common occurance and has been something that professional ivory hunters relied on so your contention that it has no meaning in the hunting world is utterly without merit.

JPK

Hey JPK,
I like to see that word "personally" in your post. You have clearly seen knock down/out effect in the field and therefore your attesting to it's validity is good enough for me and a myriad of others. Also, as you said it's something that has been relied upon by ivory hunters for decades and written about extensively.

However there will always be those who like to dispute the "bleeding obvious", good luck to them. They are probably members of the Flat Earth Society as well.

Hey, its a double edge sword. For each elephant that I have admitted to knocking down or knocking out I've admitted to missing the brain shot!

Saeed's next post will be all about how if you make the shot perfectly then you don't need it and how he never misses. Not unlike the first several on this thread, but nastier and aimed at yours truly, I think! But I doubt that Saeed hunts elephants like I do. I know that he doesn't hunt buff like I do and I would take very few of the shots he does. I've never felt the desire to shoot dangerous game like targets, from afar.

No problem with being the butt of irrelevant comments, or a fellow hunting how he wants, but when things get close and tight, and your even looking for that, you ought to have the right rifle. If you want to shoot from a greater distance, a heck of a lot less rifle is required. If you read the posts by those with experience, and ignore those with none, I think their preferences for close or far stands out and is reflected in their choice of rifle cartridge.

My 2 cents,

JPK

I have brain shot elephants with a 9,3x74R [5 yards] a 450/400 [@40 yards, as close as I could get due to terrain], and several with a 450 No2 [from about 4 yards to @ 50 to 60 yards{on a big bull that I first body shot, that turned and "ran toward us"}].

IF you make a brain shot, it does not matter, all of them have worked with one shot.

I have only missed the brain shot on one elephant, I stepped in front of her at 3 yards with my 450 No2. Instead of lowering her head and "comming" she stopped reared back and began to wheel around. My shot was a little off, but it knocked her down for a few seconds.

Some of the rest of the herd came for us, there was a bit of drama, but she was finished with a side brain shot.

There is no doubt in my mind, that a bigger Nitro Express Double, gives you a bit of an insurance policy when hunting elephants "up close".

I have done a fair amount of elephamt hunting, and I have been danger close to elephants many, many times.

I have faced many false charges.

I can say that with my 450 No2, and my ability to use it, I have NO FEAR.

I have been called "crazy" by many, including the PH's I have hunted with, but I can only state what I "feel".

When I hunted elephant with my 9,3x74R I knew and "felt" that it was "light for the job", but well handled it would work.

I did not have those "feelings" when I hunted, and killed, elephant with my 450/400 3 1/4".

While I do know it is not as BIG a hammer as my 450 No2, I was never concerned when I was in the close proximity of elephants.

And when I was shooting my lion, with other lions around I had no worries.

When brain shooting elephants, I do not look at any reference points as I aim.

Oh, I have studied hundreds of photos, from many different sources, read many different theories/techniques... Studied them all.

However when I shoot I just point the double in the "general direction of the head" and "use the force".

Ie. I shoot by feel, where I "think" the brain is, baised on the angle, elevation, and movement of the elephant.

So far, baised on the experience of others, I have either been very, very good, or very very, lucky. Most likely a combination of both.

Whatever, it has worked for me.

There is NOTHING like elephant hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by pichon1:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Is there anyone on here who knows anyone who has shot an elephant with the 600 NE??

Hey Dan,
it's starting to look like the answer to your (extremely valid) question is a resounding no.

I wonder if there is anyone on AR who has shot an ele with a .577 Nitro as well.

I would rather listen to someone who has "been there and done that" than rely on theories.

Hey, me too! All the giggles and smirks in camp don't amount to a hill of beans. Let's see what the cartridge does in the field.

As for the .577, I have not used it in the field but I have used the .585 Nyati. I shot one buffalo and one elephant with it.

Buffalo: Spooked and filled with adrenaline. First shot was quartering through the chest breaking one shoulder with a Woodleigh solid as I recall (I had Woodleigh, Barnes and TCCI with me). The buff went 20 or 25 yards, fell over and started his death bellow.

Elephant: Walking broadside, first shot was top of heart/lungs, ele turned and took 2 steps, send shot was up the butt right next to the spine but not breaking the spine. Ele took another step and hind end began to collapse, apparently due to shock to the spine resulting from the bullet passing nearby. About 2 more steps and the ele fell down. I put in 2 more shots for insurance. Bullets used were Woodleigh and TCCI.

For reference, TCCI are a hemisphereical round nose bullet with a cutting shoulder, but made from much denser bronze than Barnes bullets, so they are not as long as Barnes (and shoot more accurately too).

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

Saeed's next post will be all about how if you make the shot perfectly then you don't need it and how he never misses. Not unlike the first several on this thread, but nastier and aimed at yours truly, I think!

Some guys hunt elephant on their hind legs like a man, get close and get a charge. Other guys like to use a 3-9x scope and shoot from shooting sticks. The guy paying the tab decides his style of hunting I suppose.

Everyone take a deep breath. We don't want to get over excited on this topic. Good night, guys.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Dan
I do not know if African Hunter has killed an elephant with a 600, but I think he has killed them with a 577 and a 500 as well as a 450 No2.

Mrs. AH here again, yes he killed them with both .577 and .600

Kinda makes me wonder how Bell, Taylor and all the other hunters of yore ever killed an elephant....

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:
Kinda makes me wonder how Bell, Taylor and all the other hunters of yore ever killed an elephant....

Yep, with a lowly 7x57 Mausre and 303 British!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:
Kinda makes me wonder how Bell, Taylor and all the other hunters of yore ever killed an elephant....

Yep, with a lowly 7x57 Mausre and 303 British!

As most folks know only Bell used the 7x57 and Taylor was an advocate of big bores and strongly opposed the use of medium calibres on ele.(something about stopping power I think... you know, trying to deter 6 or 7 tons of angry pot roast from turning you into a dusty red smear) Needless to say, but I'll say it anyway, very few of us, if any, would be in the same class as Bell when it comes to marksmanship, or even close for that matter.


Of course the question we will never know the answer to.... how many ele's did Bell loose because of his choice of calibre? His bag reputedly stand at 1011, give or take a few.

Also, Bell hunted ele in the open where he did not need to get close. That is a different game than walking down elephant tunnels through ultra-thick jesse.

I wonder why some people even bother with a rifle, the way they are trying to tell us how manly they are.

Use a spear.

Or better still strangle it to death with your bare hands.

THAT would prove to me you certainly ARE more brave than I am.

I hunt the way I want to hunt, and have never, ever, suggested anyone should follow my example, as their way is wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I wonder why some people even bother with a rifle, the way they are trying to tell us how manly they are.

Use a spear.

Or better still strangle it to death with your bare hands.



THAT would prove to me you certainly ARE more brave than I am.

I hunt the way I want to hunt, and have never, ever, suggested anyone should follow my example, as their way is wrong.

A spear?? What calibre?

quote:

Originally posted by pichon1:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I wonder why some people even bother with a rifle, the way they are trying to tell us how manly they are.

Use a spear.

Or better still strangle it to death with your bare hands.



THAT would prove to me you certainly ARE more brave than I am.

I hunt the way I want to hunt, and have never, ever, suggested anyone should follow my example, as their way is wrong.

A spear?? What calibre?

It has to be a really big one.

To go with the brass balls!

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by pichon1:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I wonder why some people even bother with a rifle, the way they are trying to tell us how manly they are.

Use a spear.

Or better still strangle it to death with your bare hands.



THAT would prove to me you certainly ARE more brave than I am.

I hunt the way I want to hunt, and have never, ever, suggested anyone should follow my example, as their way is wrong.

A spear?? What calibre?

It has to be a really big one.

To go with the brass balls!

That begs the question... would brass balls be noisy during a stalk? If so, how would one circumvent such a problem? Lambswool undies, ice pack, duct tape,..?

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

I hunt the way I want to hunt, and have never, ever, suggested anyone should follow my example, as their way is wrong.

Oh, please! Your entire theme on this thread - and so many others - regarding what you percieve as the lack of the neccesity or usefulness of a big bore rifle when elephant hunting is based only on the way you hunt elephants.

You directly advocate following your medium bore example, which is based on the way you hunt, and regularly insult hunters who's own personal experience, hunting very close in the thick, leads them to their different conclusion regarding the utility and even neccesity of big bore elephant stoppers.

The inevitable insinuation is your way is the only way.

Reread your own post on just this thread for confirmation.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Everyone take a deep breath. We don't want to get over excited on this topic.

Good advice. I do like a spirited debate. But as for rifles, I like to quote (or paraphrase, as the case may be) Theodore Roosevelt.

"A man's choice of a rifle is as idiosyncratic as his choice of a friend."

What is best for one may be worst for another.

For me, on elephant, I like a big bored, very powerful rifle.

That gives me the confidence I need, and confidence is extremely important in hunting, and particularly in dangerous game hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by AfricanHunter:


Mrs. AH here again, yes he killed them with both .577 and .600

Thank you !!! We will all look forward to hearing about his experience with the cartridges. Hopefully he will be able to tell us about depth of penetration, observed shock to the elephant if the brain was not hit, and maybe even pics of some recovered bullets.

Please tell Mr. AH to get well soon!

quote:

Originally posted by pichon1:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by DC300:
Kinda makes me wonder how Bell, Taylor and all the other hunters of yore ever killed an elephant....

Yep, with a lowly 7x57 Mausre and 303 British!

As most folks know only Bell used the 7x57 and Taylor was an advocate of big bores and strongly opposed the use of medium calibres on ele.(something about stopping power I think... you know, trying to deter 6 or 7 tons of angry pot roast from turning you into a dusty red smear) Needless to say, but I'll say it anyway, very few of us, if any, would be in the same class as Bell when it comes to marksmanship, or even close for that matter.


Of course the question we will never know the answer to.... how many ele's did Bell loose because of his choice of calibre? His bag reputedly stand at 1011, give or take a few.

Don't forget that in one of Bell's books, he admits to losing 10 to 15% of the elephants he shot at. If he indeed killed 1011, then he wounded and lost somewhere around 100 to 150. I doubt that he would have lost that many had he used adequate caliber rifles.

465H&H

Hunt with what you are competent with and practice with and enjoy hunting with. As long as it meets the legal minimum requirements it's all good.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:

Saeed's next post will be all about how if you make the shot perfectly then you don't need it and how he never misses. Not unlike the first several on this thread, but nastier and aimed at yours truly, I think!

Some guys hunt elephant on their hind legs like a man, get close and get a charge. Other guys like to use a 3-9x scope and shoot from shooting sticks. The guy paying the tab decides his style of hunting I suppose.

That's a bit condescending, don't you think? What kind of charge are you talking about here? Being charged by the animal or just getting your thrill for the day? I gather you believe anyone who doesn't care to chase cow elephants in ultra thick cover with a double rifle is somehow not deserving to be called a "real" man or is just a second class hunter?

Lets remember Bell was not a "Hunter".

He killed elephants for the Ivory, as a BUSINESS. Not for Sport

He shot many off a "ladder" where anything bigger than a 7x57 might have kicked him over.

When ever HUNTING elephants is discussed Bells name should never be mentioned.

He did not kill his elephants in a SPORTING WAY.

He was a BUSINESSMAN.

Bell was not a HUNTER. Not a SPORTSMAN.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Lets remember Bell was not a "Hunter".

He killed elephants for the Ivory, as a BUSINESS. Not for Sport

He shot many off a "ladder" where anything bigger than a 7x57 might have kicked him over.

When ever HUNTING elephants is discussed Bells name should never be mentioned.

He did not kill his elephants in a SPORTING WAY.

He was a BUSINESSMAN.

Bell was not a HUNTER. Not a SPORTSMAN.

I beg to differ, and again it seems we're getting awfully judgemental around here. I'll agree that he was not out there for the "sport" of shooting elephants, and neither was John "Pondoro" Taylor, but just the same he was still a hunter...I think the proper term would be a "market" hunter. In years gone by, the men who shot untold thousands of ducks here in the USA were called "market" hunters. His hunting was for the ivory market, otherwise not much difference between the two.