I have guided a couple of these and my conclusion is that this practice should be limited to lesser game only.

Reason being I have yet to record a chap on AR with a rifle that has not wanted to accompany a PH into a dangerous game experience. A follow up on a potentially wounded DG. These men test their metal and this is why they hunt Africa. It is something that they neglect to tell their loved ones but is something that they prepare for.

Really what is the result of five ounces of sharpened pine going to do against your oncoming and pending demise?

Like I say nothing against bow hunting but surely there is a limit to this practise and I have a problem with those who do not have the tools to finish what they started.

Andrew, this is a topic I have thought about often. I bow hunt here in the States and have bow hunted plains game in Namibia once. I'm no expert or even a die hard archer but I have been bow hunting for thirty years. A razor sharp broadhead will bring anything down, eventually. When thinking about DG I do not think it's a good idea. You put yourself and your safari crew in in a very dangerous situation, and for a longer period of time. There are probably a few archers that have the talent and skills to hunt DG with a bow but for a lot of people it seems more like a dangerous stunt. I have watched three shows in which archers shot elephants and only one was recovered quickly. one was recovered within 150 yards, one was recoverd a day or two, and many miles later, and one was not recovered. Just because it is possible to do something doesn't mean you should.

An opinion based on having seen something on TV must be discounted. Bowhunting DG is no different than bowhunting anything else IF the proper equipment is utilized. An elephant dies just as quickly with an arrow thru both lungs as it does with a bullet, normally faster given the extent of hemorrhage involved with a broadhead. Only a brainshot elephant with a good solid will die more quickly. Lion and leopard are also easily and quickly killed with a properly placed arrow normally dying in seconds. Only the buffalo proves a difficult customer with bowhunting equipment. Buffalo are damned hard to kill and extreme caution is necessary with bow and arrow. The only problems one encounters with bowhunters for DG is when the equipment being used is marginal. A bow for an elephant hunt must be a heavy poundage bow capable of rendering 105 ft lbs of KE with a 1000 gr projectile. Unfortunately, most humans can't draw bows of such great weight and sometimes shortcuts are taken by both client and outfitter and the client is allowed to hunt with less than ideal equipment. In cases such as these bad things can happen. It would equate to allowing a client to hunt elephant with a .300 Win Mag. With proper equipment, however, the arrow will normally pass competely thru the elephant and he will be down in less than a minute. Lion and leopard can be hunted with standard deer hunting rigs as they are thin skinned but elephant and rhino should only be considered when the absolute best equipment is going to be used. Bowhunting buffalo is the most difficult as the range must be very close, the animal must be broadside with the near leg forward, and the flight path of the arrow must be totally unobstructed. All these things must occur before the arrow is launched. At best a bowhunter can only expect a success rate on buffalo of 25% even when hunting the best areas. It's just a damned difficult thing to pull off. I do believe that all bow equipment should be tested prior to the hunt to ensure it meets the legal requirements and that the hunter must be experienced. Any outfitter desiring to offer bowhunts should be bow savy. Bowhunters do not hunt with "sharp pine" but rather dense arrows of carbon fiber and solid steel broadheads. If the proper equip is utilized and the bowhunter is a good shot the game will die just as easily as it would with a rifle of adequate caliber. The shortcuts are what make bowhunters and bowhunting in general look bad.

I admire hunters who hunt 100% of the time with stick and string because of the challenge that it offers.

For me, I want a rifle in hand when I go after things that charge, scratch, bite, and stomp.

For dangerous game, in my opinion, there's no place for bows and arrows. Too much can go wrong, not to mention the poorly shot game that lingers for a day or two before the hunters find it and dispatch it with a rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Moody:
An opinion based on having seen something on TV must be discounted. Bowhunting DG is no different than bowhunting anything else IF the proper equipment is utilized. An elephant dies just as quickly with an arrow thru both lungs as it does with a bullet, normally faster given the extent of hemorrhage involved with a broadhead. Only a brainshot elephant with a good solid will die more quickly. Lion and leopard are also easily and quickly killed with a properly placed arrow normally dying in seconds. Only the buffalo proves a difficult customer with bowhunting equipment. Buffalo are damned hard to kill and extreme caution is necessary with bow and arrow. The only problems one encounters with bowhunters for DG is when the equipment being used is marginal. A bow for an elephant hunt must be a heavy poundage bow capable of rendering 105 ft lbs of KE with a 1000 gr projectile. Unfortunately, most humans can't draw bows of such great weight and sometimes shortcuts are taken by both client and outfitter and the client is allowed to hunt with less than ideal equipment. In cases such as these bad things can happen. It would equate to allowing a client to hunt elephant with a .300 Win Mag. With proper equipment, however, the arrow will normally pass competely thru the elephant and he will be down in less than a minute. Lion and leopard can be hunted with standard deer hunting rigs as they are thin skinned but elephant and rhino should only be considered when the absolute best equipment is going to be used. Bowhunting buffalo is the most difficult as the range must be very close, the animal must be broadside with the near leg forward, and the flight path of the arrow must be totally unobstructed. All these things must occur before the arrow is launched. At best a bowhunter can only expect a success rate on buffalo of 25% even when hunting the best areas. It's just a damned difficult thing to pull off. I do believe that all bow equipment should be tested prior to the hunt to ensure it meets the legal requirements and that the hunter must be experienced. Any outfitter desiring to offer bowhunts should be bow savy. Bowhunters do not hunt with "sharp pine" but rather dense arrows of carbon fiber and solid steel broadheads. If the proper equip is utilized and the bowhunter is a good shot the game will die just as easily as it would with a rifle of adequate caliber. The shortcuts are what make bowhunters and bowhunting in general look bad.

Ken I get your point (no pun intended) but what I am rather stating is that DG rarely falls to the first bullet and the follow up is a serious affair and often the penultimate of the hunt. It is the conclusion where as man has to be confident of his weapon and shooting ability and indeed accepts the element of danger = DG.

To put an arrow into a potentially dangerous animal is fairly easy but for the bowhunter the hunt stops there and then which effectively removes the danger. So what is the point?

Fred Bear did pretty well in Zambia on lion and
buff. Wally Johnson was greatly impressed.

I'm certainly not going to judge bowhunters that want to fulfill their passion by hunting DG. There are outfitters that specialize in this type of hunt.

I am primarily, a bow hunter. I have taken 0 bears with a bow. from 4 yards all the way to 26 yards. The furthest any one of them has gone was 125 yards. I have NO desire to hunt dangerous game with a bow. I have taken Elk, deer and bear with both a bow and a rifle. Shot properly, the animals don't go any further with a bow than a rifle. However, having shot a Cape Buffalo 5 times with a rifle(.458 Lott) gives me some insight into how tough dangerous game is somewhere else than N. America. I'll stick with the biggest caliber I can accurately shoot.

I do not have a problem with DG bow hunting. I have been hunting with a bow myself for 27 years and have conducted DG bow hunts for 13 of those years.
I believe that it is safer for the hunter to hunt a dangerous animal with a bow because of the noise factor that is absent. If any animal is shot with a rifle, there is a lot of noise that can influence the animals behavior - sometimes making it aggressive.
I have guided a lot of Elephant and found that when the arrow hits home and the hunting party keeps quiet that the animal will run of a short distance and stop. The rest of the Elephant (if there were others) does not seem to mind and does not spook.
I am not going into shot-placement because that goes without saying.
I have found that even Buffalo behaves calmly when hunted in the right way and they sometimes die within sight of the hunter.
For me, hunting is not about the follow-up. it is about guiding a client onto an animal that he hunts and hunts well.
All the clients that I have guided for DG knows that when they shoot a bad shot on a DG animal that I will immediately put a bullet into the animal.
Many animals are wounded with rifles and many are also lost. This does not mean that rifles are not good enough either.
If the correct equipment is used and in the right way, there will be no problems.
If it does happen that an animal is wounded then I shall have my .375H&H (carried by a tracker) on hand for the client to at least finish his own animal just like on a rifle hunt.

I have seen many times that an animal's mind-set is different when wounded by a rifle than with an arrow.

quote:

If it does happen that an animal is wounded then I shall have my .375H&H (carried by a tracker) on hand for the client to at least finish his own animal just like on a rifle hunt.

Then it is no longer a bow hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

If it does happen that an animal is wounded then I shall have my .375H&H (carried by a tracker) on hand for the client to at least finish his own animal just like on a rifle hunt.

Then it is no longer a bow hunt.

You are correct Saeed. If a bowhunter wounds and animal and it has to be killed with a bullet then it is not a bow hunt but at least the client did it.
I see it the same as when a rifle client wounds an animal and the PH puts a bullet in it then the client did not hunt it.

Andrew,

No one holds a gun to a PH's head and makes them take clients with a bow. If you don't want to do it.......don't do it. If you want them to bring a gun to help with follow up........make them bring a gun if they're going to hunt with you. I'd be interested in an elephant with a bow some day. That said if I decide to do one of those hunts I'll be sure to have the PH shoot if need be and I'll be bringing my double for follow up.

Brett

Fairgame- Happy Christ filled Christmas....

I took part in two out of three bow hunting trials in Zimbabwe, in an effort by local bow hunters to get bow hunting legalised and I drafted (and re drafted) SI 11 of 1997 which governs bow hunting in Zimbabwe. After considerable trails and agaisnt much oposition I specified that Elephant, Buff, Hippo and croc could only be conductd in terms of a 'special permit' issed (at extra cost) by parks. Of course, I was a parks oficer at the time and we needed the money... but in trials (with admitadely not quite state of the art bows) took on average 9 minutes to put down a lion and 50/50 sucess on elephant.

Small push....Pierre van Der Walt is publishing my old mans book...he was the stand in in the original 1949 tarzan film where tarzan shoots an elephant with a bow. He did. (Ira Larivers, current editor of African hunter owns that bow)... In the film (which I have, the elephant wobbles a bit and falls over dead...in reality it ran 100m or so).

In our trials, Elephant died easily if The elephant was hit right. If not...it fell to rifle fire. Buff were even worse.

Since leaving Government I have conducted many bow hunts and am mote convinced than ever that I was right in the drafting of the legislation. In at least 50% of buff bow hunts at least one other buff falls to the PH's rifle as he is forced to protect the client. In my opinion these 'self defece buff' should come off the quota or be paid for at the very least.

Croc...I was wrong,- with a correctly set up bow and line it is a safer bet than with a rifle.

Elephant....It is more reliable to shoot an ele with a .22 savage than with a bow...and those hunters who wish to use a bow should pay a premium.

Lion... well, depends on how you hunt them. I do walk and stalk lion withy the understanding that if I have to shoot a lioness in self defence that it is to the clients account. With a bow or BP hunt the client had better count that in.... especially at my prices That charging lioness costs the client US$25,000 if I have to shoot.

Bowhunting has its place. In DG hunting it is a gimic and should be charged out as such and any animals that the PH has to shooot to protect the client should be paid for - in full ( Buff 10g, lion 25g elephant...whatever you normally charge).

I have far less problems with handgun hunts. Black powdwer... I understand the desire to duplicate what the old timers whent through and I try to be reasonable... (being of Scots decent that comes hard).

If the quotas are correctly set, every animal shot in self defence or more usually shot in defence of the client should come off quota, and the client should pay.


On occasion though I have has a serious moral dilema as to weather to let the lioness maul the client or to shoot in time Thier are some clients that almost deserve a quick tummy tuck...

quote:

Originally posted by Fritz Rabe:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

If it does happen that an animal is wounded then I shall have my .375H&H (carried by a tracker) on hand for the client to at least finish his own animal just like on a rifle hunt.

Then it is no longer a bow hunt.

You are correct Saeed. If a bowhunter wounds and animal and it has to be killed with a bullet then it is not a bow hunt but at least the client did it.
I see it the same as when a rifle client wounds an animal and the PH puts a bullet in it then the client did not hunt it.

Totally agree with this.

The moment the PH needs to fire a shot(s), I have failed as a hunter with my bow or my gun and the hunted animal is not in my mind MY hunted animal anymore even when I pay for it.

I doubt I would even bother to take the "trophy" home.

I have never hunted DG with a bow or a gun and I doubt I will ever have the money for it.

But I am sure that a well skilled bowhunter with the right equipment and never taking risky shots will kill as well as any good hunter with a gun when both shoot at the chest of the animal.

quote:

Originally posted by Dog Man:
Fred Bear did pretty well in Zambia on lion and
buff. Wally Johnson was greatly impressed.

I'm certainly not going to judge bowhunters that want to fulfill their passion by hunting DG. There are outfitters that specialize in this type of hunt.

Fred Bear was in Moz with Johnson and he used poison on his arrows. Documented. In the film when he shoots the cape buffalo you can see the powder flying off the arrow.

I have taken two Cape Buffalo.One with rifle and one with bow. In both cases we stalked to within range of the weapon, made a double lung shot, the animal went about sixty yards and layed down. We followed up immediately. I paid the insurance and we took photos.

Without seeing the weapon in my hand it would appear both hunts were identical.

These results were duplicated on water buffalo in Australia and Argentina.

Don't blame the equipment if it is the hunter that comes up short.

quote:

Originally posted by Jerry Huffaker:

quote:

Originally posted by Dog Man:
Fred Bear did pretty well in Zambia on lion and
buff. Wally Johnson was greatly impressed.

I'm certainly not going to judge bowhunters that want to fulfill their passion by hunting DG. There are outfitters that specialize in this type of hunt.

Fred Bear was in Moz with Johnson and he used poison on his arrows. Documented. In the film when he shoots the cape buffalo you can see the powder flying off the arrow.

Of course, and its all legal in Mozambique

IF you can see the powder flying off then it didn't get into the buffalo.....

There is a big difference in CAN YOU and SHOULD YOU in regard to DG with a bow. I have bow hunted most of my teen and adult life, but am against it with regard to DG.I believe if you cannot stop a full blown charge with the weapon in your hand, than you risk your life, and those of the people with you when it happens. And do it enough, and it will happen. Bow hunting is a wonderful and honorable sport, but not for DG in my humble opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by DTala:
IF you can see the powder flying off then it didn't get into the buffalo.....

Just because some of the powder flies off does that mean it all flies off?

Until they make a bow that will stop a full blown charge then bowhunting DG with a bow is nothing more than a stunt. Since I am still of sane mind at the moment I won't hunt dangerous game with a bow unless I were to become suicidal

Let's face it - there are those who hunt with a bow because it rocks their boat and that's fine as long as they shoot sticks into plains-game, but if they were to prove their point or worth, the answer would be finding an outfitter who would "lease" them a DG hunt without the backing of a firearm, which unfortunately is not permissible for obvious reasons, but assuming it were, at least be given the opportunity in achieving their goal with a hope of making it back to base in one piece to hoist the flag and trumpet their conquest - failure in doing so......the lonely bugle will grieve the vanquished intrepid hunter.

I have done alot of bowhunting, but when my buffalo stood up and faced me at 20yds, I was glad I had my 375. Bowhunting DG is not something I would personally do.

I certainly would not and wonder why anyone else would have anything against a lifetime bowhunter wanting to fullfill his dream of killing a cape buff or any other dangerous game with a bow.

From the PH or outfitters side. If you dont want to offer that service fine. But what is wrong with an outfitter offering a DG bowhunt with the stipulation that there would be 2 backup guns and there was an extra fee for that. I don't see how taking the initial shot with a bow is going to lead to a other buff or lioness getting shot too.

Fred Bear's hunt was in Moz, sorry.
Wally described the episode of Sports Afield when Fred shot at the cape buff, "you could see the vapor trail from the arrow". I know that Fred had experimented with some type of tranquilizer pod, but don't think it was documented on this hunt.

If I was a DG PH, I bet I would rather see a guy step off a charter plane that was a lifetime bowhunter, with years of experience in the field than some dude that just bought his first rifle and is in his first year of hunting.

Statements like, "bowhunting has no place in DG hunting" baffle me. Try telling that to a lifetime bowhunter that has killed most of the game in North America, has more money than he knows what to do with, that he shouldn't try and hunt a cape buffalo. If he does make a bad shot with his bow and follows it up with a rifle, I can assure you he's not going to try and claim it as a bowkill. He's going to pull out his checkbook and get another on quota.

If I had the power to pull the weight required to hunt DBG I would certainly do it. But, I don't. I've killed a fair number of plains game with arrows and have never had to follow up a single animal. I remain very happy with that record.

That said I know there are people who have achieved some great DBG hunts with their archery tackle, Tink Nathan for one.

However, not everyone can do this. I personally know of people who have lied about their abilities and one shot kills on African DBG.

One thing we must remember and take into consideration with 'primative' weapons is they were not used by our ancestors the way we currently use them. Spears and arrows were meant to be used in great quantity upon game by a hunting party composed of many hunters, not by an individual as is generally done with a rifle in these modern times.

Also, these primitive hunters were quite efficient and comparatively (maybe completely) unethical as they cared less how long it took a targeted animal to die; how old it was or if it had dependent young. They did it to survive and slung arrows and spears until the deed was done.

If I really wanted to do it, I could only only do it alone and without back up, and that's not possible.

Otherwise, besides myself, I would be putting the PH and his trackers in the way of much more likely bodily injury or death because of my desire to use a primitive and marginal, not to say inadequate, weapon.

I would not want to do that, so I would not hunt any variety of dangerous game with a bow.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

If it does happen that an animal is wounded then I shall have my .375H&H (carried by a tracker) on hand for the client to at least finish his own animal just like on a rifle hunt.

Then it is no longer a bow hunt.

My original point on an earlier thread but more succintly put, exactly ...

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:


Otherwise, besides myself, I would be putting the PH and his trackers in the way of much more likely bodily injury or death because of my desire to use a primitive and marginal, not to say inadequate, weapon.

I would not want to do that, so I would not hunt any variety of dangerous game with a bow.

Do you think a buffalo with an arrow in the guts is more dangerous than one with a bullet in the same place?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Fulson:
There is a big difference in CAN YOU and SHOULD YOU in regard to DG with a bow. I have bow hunted most of my teen and adult life, but am against it with regard to DG.I believe if you cannot stop a full blown charge with the weapon in your hand, than you risk your life, and those of the people with you when it happens. And do it enough, and it will happen. Bow hunting is a wonderful and honorable sport, but not for DG in my humble opinion.

An example,

Dear Dave,
I have been a bowhunter for 30 years and have almost completed the North American 29. It has been a dream for me to take a cape buffalo with a bow and I'd like for Chifuti Safaris to help me fullfil my liflong passion in bowhunting.
I understand there may be a need for an additional PH or assistant PH on the hunt and am willing to cover this added expense.
Please respond with info on where I send my deposit for daily rate, trophy fees.

A man who chooses to hunt with a bow & arrow should have waaaaaaaaaaaay too big a set and manhood to allow someone to ruin his hunt by backing him with a rifle...

Otherwise, it's just a sham and the retelling of the hunt is either a lie or an admission of failure/incompetence.

Any DG hunter is backed up by a rifle toting PH. Client has his/her opportunity, PH will be shooting (I would hope) on ANY substandard hit. Client had his opportunity and must deal with that reality. The notion that a DG bowhunt would ever be conducted without firearms present is not going to happen so why even discuss it? BTW, any of you guys ever have any luck talking your PH into leaving his rifle in the truck?

quote:

Originally posted by swivelhead:
Any DG hunter is backed up by a rifle toting PH. Client has his/her opportunity, PH will be shooting (I would hope) on ANY substandard hit. Client had his opportunity and must deal with that reality. The notion that a DG bowhunt would ever be conducted without firearms present is not going to happen so why even discuss it? BTW, any of you guys ever have any luck talking your PH into leaving his rifle in the truck?

Thank you and well done.

quote:

Originally posted by Dog Man:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:


Otherwise, besides myself, I would be putting the PH and his trackers in the way of much more likely bodily injury or death because of my desire to use a primitive and marginal, not to say inadequate, weapon.

I would not want to do that, so I would not hunt any variety of dangerous game with a bow.

Do you think a buffalo with an arrow in the guts is more dangerous than one with a bullet in the same place?

I don't think a buffalo with an arrow in the guts is more dangerous than one with a bullet in the guts. But im willing to bet that you will have a lot better chance of stopping the charge from that buffalo with a rifle than with a bow

I think that DG hunting with a bow is no different to DG hunting with a rifle. Your ass ultimately lies in the hands of the PH and his abilities.
The fact that your first shot with a bow needs to be at 20 yards or less makes this aspect of the hunt far more challenging than say having the luxury of standing at 50 yards or 150 as some do.

The Ph's who take on bowhunts with DG love doing it and will continue to do so. To those Ph's who are not cut out for it or don't think its the right way, they should stay home when the bows come out as their reluctance will get people in trouble.
All the best bow PH's are passionate bow hunters and like to get in under the radar and take the shots up close. If you are not doing that as a PH then you are already compromising the clients ability to finish it with a single well placed shot whilst having the experience of a lifetime.

Once you have hunted with a dedicated Bow PH you will know what I am talking about.
As for the danger aspect, I dont know of a single decent Bow PH who doesn't trust in his abilities to stop a charge up close and is ready to do so at all times.

I have been enthralled with bow hunting since I saw and met Howard Hill who,I think, was one of the first people to take an elephant with a bow. Still have my Bear take down I boughtfrom Fred Bear personally because that was the model he used. I have never killed a big game animal with a bow but it's not for lack of trying. I would think that in the case of dangerous game it would be strictly a decision between the hunter and the PH. If the PH is agreeable then it's no one else's business,period. I have never been charged by either a cape Buffalo or an elephant but have killed both. Backed up ,of course by a PH. Could I have handled a charge ,I haven't the slightest idea and really neither has anyone else till it happens,did I depend on my PH, you bet your bottom dollar I did.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Moody:
An opinion based on having seen something on TV must be discounted. Bowhunting DG is no different than bowhunting anything else IF the proper equipment is utilized. An elephant dies just as quickly with an arrow thru both lungs as it does with a bullet, normally faster given the extent of hemorrhage involved with a broadhead. Only a brainshot elephant with a good solid will die more quickly. Lion and leopard are also easily and quickly killed with a properly placed arrow normally dying in seconds. Only the buffalo proves a difficult customer with bowhunting equipment. Buffalo are damned hard to kill and extreme caution is necessary with bow and arrow. The only problems one encounters with bowhunters for DG is when the equipment being used is marginal. A bow for an elephant hunt must be a heavy poundage bow capable of rendering 105 ft lbs of KE with a 1000 gr projectile. Unfortunately, most humans can't draw bows of such great weight and sometimes shortcuts are taken by both client and outfitter and the client is allowed to hunt with less than ideal equipment. In cases such as these bad things can happen. It would equate to allowing a client to hunt elephant with a .300 Win Mag. With proper equipment, however, the arrow will normally pass competely thru the elephant and he will be down in less than a minute. Lion and leopard can be hunted with standard deer hunting rigs as they are thin skinned but elephant and rhino should only be considered when the absolute best equipment is going to be used. Bowhunting buffalo is the most difficult as the range must be very close, the animal must be broadside with the near leg forward, and the flight path of the arrow must be totally unobstructed. All these things must occur before the arrow is launched. At best a bowhunter can only expect a success rate on buffalo of 25% even when hunting the best areas. It's just a damned difficult thing to pull off. I do believe that all bow equipment should be tested prior to the hunt to ensure it meets the legal requirements and that the hunter must be experienced. Any outfitter desiring to offer bowhunts should be bow savy. Bowhunters do not hunt with "sharp pine" but rather dense arrows of carbon fiber and solid steel broadheads. If the proper equip is utilized and the bowhunter is a good shot the game will die just as easily as it would with a rifle of adequate caliber. The shortcuts are what make bowhunters and bowhunting in general look bad.

Ken, let me ask you one short question! No matter what bow equipment you are using, what do you do if that elephant decides to charge you instead of running away for that last MINUTE he takes to die, and how many people can he kill in that sixty seconds? Well you have the PH to back you with his rifle! NOW, where is it chiseled in stone that the PH who has the proper equipment to stop a frontal charge, with a brain shot, will not be the first one hit, leaving you to shoot the ele off him with a damn bow and stick? How about the PH useing a bow as well to back YOU? Let's not even mention cape buffalo in that sceenario!

I hunted several years with a bow, but I restricted my hunting to deer and elk, with the only simi-dangerous game being a black bear from a tree stand over bait. In Africa, of the big five I believe bow hunting should be limited to the cats over bait, and the client be required to bring an adequate rifle along and be required to follow up any wounded game he wounds and lets get out of sight! In that case I don’t think many would want to be involved with dangerous game with a bow! It just seems a little selfish to put the PH, and trackers in harms way to simply sattisfy your engagement in a stunt!

Sir I believe anyone should be allowed to hunt with what ever he wants as long as he is the only one put at risk, but bow hunting of dangerous game in Africa one must be, by law, required to put the PH and trackers at risk as well. Lastly I live by a greedo that says Your freedom to swing, ends at the tip of other mans nose! Who you all put at risk is the real question! As Andrew said many rifle hunters will not go into the weeds along with the PH to follow-up a wounded dangerous animal, how about you with your bow?

................................................................................. .........................................

I guess to each their own but bowhunting DG is a personal choice by both client and outfitter/PH. No one forces the PH to take the hunt but those who get into it normally enjoy it much more as it is more challenging and alot more fun than taking a rifle client. Today's archery equipment can easily and quickly kill any animal on the planet provided the proper equipment is utilized. As I stated before problems only occur when shortcuts are taken on either the equip side or with the shot selection. The same can be said for rifle hunting I suppose but with bowhunting it is more critical. Most serious bowhunters bowhunt because they are bowhunters. Sounds simple but these guys don't even own rifles. They are bowhunters. It is not a secondary weapon it is their only weapon and they are not hunting to prove any point or to act more manly (as perceived by some here) but simply because they are bowhunters. Some here seem to think that anyone who bowhunts must gun hunt as well but that is untrue. Some guys only hunt with archery tackle. To think that guys bowhunt DG to elevate or heighten the danger is nonsense. Bowhunters are not thrill seekers they're just guys who hunt with bows the same as guys that hunt with doubles or guys that hunt with single shots, etc. Bowhunters are just as safety conscience as anyone else and are certainly not the reckless sort some of you who don't get it seem to think. Most serious bowhunters are B type personalities. The challenge to bowhunting and the reason bowhunters do it is to get in close to the game they hunt and pull off a good shot. That's it. There are no hidden agendas, false bravado, etc.

Having a rifle-armed PH along when supposedly "bow hunting" for dangerous game is to me a glaring admission that the rifle, and not the bow, is the proper weapon for the task.

If the bow were truly sufficient, then the back up should also be armed with a bow, right?

I would not put others in my party in danger by choosing to use a marginal or inadequate weapon when hunting dangerous game - and that includes a marginal or inadequate rifle, BTW. If I wanted to do it badly enough, I might put myself in that kind of danger, but I wouldn't willingly put others in that position.

Wild animals are unpredictable. They can live a long time after being struck, even in a vital spot, by an arrow. I daresay longer on average than when struck by a rifle bullet of sufficient caliber and power.

If so inclined, even fatally wounded dangerous game animals can cause serious bodily injury, and even death, to members of the hunting party before they die - especially when they start committing their mayhem at bow hunting ranges.

On the other hand, having rifle-armed back up along when hunting dangerous game with a rifle is entirely consistent with the essential nature of the activity. That it's arguably unnecessary does not contradict, but reinforces that fact.

Your argument is silly. Most backup rifles are of greater cailber than the rifle being hunted with by the client. A scoped .375 is not a backup rifle. Backup rifles are designed to do just that, backup the hunter in the event his bow/rifle does not adequately do the job. They are heavy hitters made to stop an all out charge not primary rifles used for hunting. All clients hunting DG regardless of personal weapon must have adequate backup. Once you shoot the animal with whatever weapon you are using, your hunt is done and the PH takes over during the recovery. If the animal is dead then the hunt is successful whether it is bow or rifle. If the animal charges and the PH has to shoot, then the hunt is unsuccessful whether it is bow or rifle. If a second shot opportunity occurs and the client can make it with either bow or rifle then he may claim the hunt successful. I will also tell you more people are put into danger with a neophyte rifle hunter moving in on a wounded DG animal then with a bowhunter. How may trackers do you know that have been accidentally shot by a bowhunter when following up a wounded animal.

I understand why some people here do not fancy the idea of DG hunting with a bow. They have their reasons but to try and enforce those reasons on others that do not share the same feelings is not right.
Everyone to his own.
I do and will keep guiding serious bow hunters for DG. This is my passion. It is not my hobby but my way of life.
Most people against it says that what if the animal charges? That is not the case. Why then do you all have a PH with you if you as a client already have a .470 or .458 Lott ect with you?
The idea is not to wound it. It is to kill it with the first shot period!
I have seen many animals wounded with rifles. I have seen many small game wounded with big guns. The weapon that you carry is not the savior of mankind. It is how and where you put the (proper and adequate) projectile.
I am not jumping on any prospective clients toes here but the gun you carry is not the holy grail.
It is a mind-set that will help you more by doing the right thing at the right time. DG PH's spend more time with DG than most clients spend with non-DG even if they are not shooting at them. This helps the mind to be much more clear during times of adrenalin.
I have been doing this for many years and every year I am more convinced that the equipment gets better for doing it.

Think of this example:
You decide to take up sky-diving. Are you going to jump out of the plane at 10 000ft on the first day by yourself or are you going to do a tandem jump with an instructor first.
You have the right equipment and know what to do in the event of a malfunction - will you be able to do it and land safely?

It is a no-brainer really.

What does it matter what gun the PH has with him? If the client wounds the animal then it is the job of the PH to end it. Then it is not about the glory of the client any more but about the animal.

Any proper bow setup can kill any animal on land just as effectively as any rifle IF USED PROPPERLY. After that it is just opinions.

I choose to guide clients for DG bow hunting and so does my trackers. It is our lives and our choice. Me and my staff are still alive after many years of doing it so we can not be completely wrong.

Ken, your arguments are weak.

And what you describe of rifle hunting is a gross over-generalization.

Many DG hunters, including me, generally carry and use a DG rifle that is more powerful than, or at least as powerful as, the rifles used by their professional hunters. To my mind, the notion that only the PH should carry a stopping rifle is foolish.

Many DG hunters, including me, instruct their professional hunters not to fire unless the animal being hunted poses a threat to anyone in their hunting party. In rifle hunting, my personal experience and my general impression are that the need for such back up shots by the PH is quite rare. Cf. Ganyana's post above re: bow hunting.

Many DG hunters, including me, follow up every dangerous animal they shoot, and would not have it any other way. For some hunters, following up a wounded, and even a fatally wounded, DG animal, is beyond what they are willing to do. But in my estimation, they are not hunters.

Fritz, you misunderstand me. I would not dream of stopping anyone from hunting DG with a bow or any PH from accompanying him.

But if asked to comment, as we were asked on this thread, I would tell the hunter that, as long as he has a rifleman along, he is not bow hunting.

And if I were feeling particularly helpful, I would advise him that his bow is inadequate to the task and might get him, or someone else, injured or killed.

And for proof of that, I would suggest that he examine the weapon being carried by his back up PH.

As the old saying goes, one can manage to pound nails with a pipe wrench, but that doesn't make it the right tool for the job.

If you believe that you are not "bow" hunting because you have a rifle backup then of course, by the same argument, you are not rifle hunting either if you have a PH backing you. Your PH is doing the hunting and you are there as a "shooter." He finds he game, he and his trackers track the game, he points to game, you shoot the game. The only "hunter" involved in either scenario is the professional. To say otherwise is to be dishonest. Don't act as if you are being dropped off in the Omay and told "there are good buffalo here so go find one" and off you go on your own as if you know what you're doing. If that were the case there would be a hell of alot less buffalo being killed, rifle or bow. I've been doing this for 20 years and have done over 100 buffalo hunts, several elephant, hippo, etc. with bow and rifle clients and have never had a bowhunter put anyone's life in danger. Additionally, I have never had any bowhunter accidently discharge his bow while amongst the hunting group nor can I ever recall a tracker or PH being shot by his bowhunting client. Cannot say the same for some toting guns. I assure you the safest guy in the bush will be the one carrying the bow. In capable hands a bow is just as deadly as a rifle on any game but, if I am to infer your meaning, it will not stop a charge. You are correct if that is your assertion. So, if legally it was deemed that all weapons used by clients pursuing DG must be capable of stopping a charge then there would be no bowhunting of DG.