My main complaint is when I have to shoot an animal other than the one being hunted in 'self defence' because the chosen tool cause a problem...like lions charge the smoke from a black powdeer rifle (as elephants also seem to do) or that you have to get too close to buff with a bow and the trophy is always on the other side of the group and you get a charge from a cow or smaller bull. Those 'self defence' animals should be paid for by the client and taken off the quota.

I agree with you on that statement. There are to many "charges" that could have been avoided if people did not push-it to hard.
Some might say that that is part of DG hunting. I do not support that statement.

If you want to be endangered while hunting. Join a Mercenary outfit.

Danger does play a role but to go look for it to boost some testosterone levels is unjust to the animal.

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Originally posted by fairgame:

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I'd rather have one bowkilled animal than a truckload of rifle kills and when I look at my little trophy room I know I've truly earned every one of them.

Totally agree. I do not think that we rifle hunters are putting down your sport but rather questioning the final outcome of a DG hunt and the strong possibility of a follow up. If as some have stated the sportsman then swaps his tools in order to complete the hunt then that is fine with me.

Wounding is a common trait in bowhunting and more so from those who are not expert. From my experience the distance ranged is critical and often this is where things go wrong. Unlike a bullet if the arrow does not quite find it's mark then the damage is negligible which is a concern especially when dealing with Lion or Buffalo, and not let us forget your bear.

You have to have balls to take on those brown bears of yours, one on one, with only a bag of arrows.

Sorry, but wounding with a bow is no more common than it is with rifle. In nearly 20 years of record keeping I've found the wound rates of bow v. rifle are almost identical and that is around 15%. Of course that's for plains game. For DG the wound rate for bows is slightly greater and that is almost always due to poor shooting as you indicated.

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Originally posted by Ken Moody:

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Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

I'd rather have one bowkilled animal than a truckload of rifle kills and when I look at my little trophy room I know I've truly earned every one of them.

Totally agree. I do not think that we rifle hunters are putting down your sport but rather questioning the final outcome of a DG hunt and the strong possibility of a follow up.

Wounding is a common trait in bowhunting and more so from those who are not expert.

Sorry, but wounding with a bow is no more common than it is with rifle. In nearly 20 years of record keeping I've found the wound rates of bow v. rifle are almost identical and that is around 15%. Of course that's for plains game. For DG the wound rate for bows is slightly greater and that is almost always due to poor shooting as you indicated.

I think here is the problem with this whole thread! Both sides are talking about two different things! The title of this thread is “BOW HUNTING AND DANGEROUS GAME” not BOW HUNTING OF PLAINS GAME!

For a professional like Rabe, his personal wound rate on Cape buffalo and lion may be uncommon. However, as Fairgame says, with a client hunter taking on cape buffalo, lion and elephant with a bow, I would say that wound rate for client bow hunters would certainly be higher than 15% and the instance of just a little off the mark shots result in a very dangerous follow-up., Additionally unless the arrow is dead on mark just waiting for the animal to die is folly, and you may never see that animal again if he is not followed promptly, and dispatched. That can’t be denied with a clear conscience.

All wounding is because of poor shooting, as quoted by Mr. Moody, whether with a rifle or bow! I will say that some of it is poor knowledge of where to place the arrow or bullet. Even so, placing the shot in the right place is harder with a bow than with a rifle even at close range. The 15% wound rate, noted above, was likely recorded on Tennessee whitetail deer, because there are very few Cape buffalo in the Tennessee woods!

Some of the rifle wounding, in the case of that 15% data, IMO is due, in great part, to a lot of hunters using buckshot on deer, and or rifles with iron sights practicing the old timer’s thing of shooting through brush thinking the balls or bullets from their SO-CALLED brush bucking rifles will get through to the target without being deflected. No bow hunter would ever do that because he knows the arrow would be deflected. However most rifle hunters in African wouldn’t do it with a rifle either, especially on dangerous game like Cape buffalo!

If that same record keeping was taken in the Western mountain states where most deer are taken at longer range with scoped flat shooting rifles I think the rifle wound rate would certainly be far less than 15%. On things in Africa, where this thread is about, and on big dangerous game like Cape buffalo is hunted. The difference is with the rifle you have instant ability to back your own shot, or SHOTS, while the bow is most times a one shot and hope it was good.

Nobody here is saying dangerous game should not be hunted with a bow, but are simply stating that it has to be handled far differently than with a more adequate weapon like a double rifle of proper chambering even though both are used most often used at close range. Certainly in both cases placement is the order of the day, but the bow that placement has to be far more precise to have equal effect.

Bow hunting of big dangerous game in Africa, or bear in Alaska or Canada is a serious undertaking, and must be done with a by a VERY qualified bowman accompanied by
a PH who understands bow hunting but as importantly also understands the target animal as well. After all both are HUNTING and all hunting has risks where dangerous game is concerned!

Good hunting gentlemen, no matter how you do it, be safe! ............... or .................

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The records indicated were regarding my safari company which I've owned in Africa since 1994, 50% of my clients being bowhunters. As we average over 300 animals taken per year in Africa the facts of wounding with bow v. rifle have been documented quite extensively and represent an overall account on all animals, plains game and dangerous game. The average wounding rate on DG with bow is only slightly greater than with rifle. Clients don't just fling arrows at the animals. They are only allowed to shoot when the situation is perfect. As such, the success rate on DG with bowhunters is far less than with rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Moody:
The records indicated were regarding my safari company which I've owned in Africa since 1994, 50% of my clients being bowhunters. As we average over 300 animals taken per year in Africa the facts of wounding with bow v. rifle have been documented quite extensively and represent an overall account on all animals, plains game and dangerous game. The average wounding rate on DG with bow is only slightly greater than with rifle. Clients don't just fling arrows at the animals. They are only allowed to shoot when the situation is perfect. As such, the success rate on DG with bowhunters is far less than with rifle.

Noted!

quote:

Originally posted by Ken Moody:
The records indicated were regarding my safari company which I've owned in Africa since 1994, 50% of my clients being bowhunters. As we average over 300 animals taken per year in Africa the facts of wounding with bow v. rifle have been documented quite extensively and represent an overall account on all animals, plains game and dangerous game. The average wounding rate on DG with bow is only slightly greater than with rifle. Clients don't just fling arrows at the animals. They are only allowed to shoot when the situation is perfect. As such, the success rate on DG with bowhunters is far less than with rifle.

Ken again I agree but what percentage of your bowhunters followed up DG? None because there was very little they could do in a possible charge scenario.

There are very few here who will not want to mix it when push comes to shove but then again they are adequately armed to do the job.

While rifle hunting DBG I've had my PH not allow me to accompany on a potential follow up (the leopard turned out to be a one shot kill). Prolly cuz I am a girl. I shoot well, whether rifle or bow, but I will always listen to my PH and am glad they look out for me. No need for big egos in the field if you ask me.

I think the lesson here is knowing your limits and capabilities and hunting with the proper gear. Bow hunting large animals with expandable broadheads really are risky business (IMHO).

I have many excellent archery trophies and many excellent rifle trophes. As I stated earlier, I know I don't pull enough weight to hunt DBG with a bow but I do know I am very accurate and have the ability to put down game suitable for my capabilities and choice of equipment. While it's my hunt, when others are employed for my success, I must also consider them too.

That does not mean other hunters should not bow hunt DGB. I know there are people who successfully do so very effectively.

Good hunting to all!

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I would say that wound rate for client bow hunters would certainly be higher than 15% and the instance of just a little off the mark shots result in a very dangerous follow-up., Additionally unless the arrow is dead on mark just waiting for the animal to die is folly, and you may never see that animal again if he is not followed promptly, and dispatched. That can’t be denied with a clear conscience.

Mac

Perhaps you should do some research with bow hunters and bow outfitters in Africa. Based on your comments and with no disrespect intended I think you are basing a fair amount of what you say on your belief rather than experience.

I fully understand your main concern here with regards to some peoples DG practice, but I can assure you that most proper bow ph's are nothing like what is described and are almost always consummate professionals who are hugely passionate about bow hunting. You do not get many of the guys simply offering it for the sake of getting money staying in business long as they cant offer the success rate that a true bow ph does. That is why the true bow hunting specialists are well known and highly regarded.

I agree with you 100% about people not following up their own wounded game. If in-fact it is wounded. It does not sit well with me. That said, some people are not cut out for it. Hence they choose a capable PH to minimise the risk and if need be, said PH willingly takes the opportunity to finish things off with or without the client.

Either way, I understand your concerns and they are valid. But I still think that Ph's and Clients choose to conduct these hunts knowing fully the risks envolved. As per my campfire based understanding incidence of dangerous encounters amougst DG outfitters here in SA is lower for bow kills than for rifle kills. This is due to the fact that most bow hunters are better prepared, fitter, have had to practice for years to draw 90lbs and wait for a perfect shot.

To my mind, with the right PH. Your success with a bow should be no different to your success with a rifle. But with the added challenge of having to get inside of 20 yards, which to me makes the hunt.

For what it is worth here are my stats for DG bow-hunting with my clients:

Killed with 1 x arrow:
12 x Elephant.
9 x Lion.
5 x Rhino.
14 x Leopard.
18 x Hippo.
3 x Crocodile.
32 x Buffalo

Killed with more than 1 arrow:
2 x Buffalo.
2 x Croc

Killed with rifle after wounding:
2 x Buffalo.
1 x Leopard.
1 x Lion.

Wounded and lost:
1 x Elephant.

(client refused to shoot further than 15 yards and shot the Elephant in the guts at 7 yards. I tried to explain to him that he would get better penetration at between 20 - 35y after the heavy arrow had time to stabilize in flight. He was a great shot on TARGETS but not at the Elephant. Things just happened that after the shot, I could not get a shot of with my rifle because the client pushed my rifle down and shouted for me not to shoot his elephant. The animal went into overdrive and was found dead 45 miles further after 3 days in the National Park.)

That was not the fault of the equipment. The fault lied with the client that did not shoot straight and then prevented me from putting the animal down. If he had a rifle in his hands he would also wound it because his nerve broke so close to the Elephant. - He will never hunt with me again. I refused to take him on any hunt after that incident.

Maybe I was lucky with these stats but for now I am happy with the results.

Impressive. Both Hippo and Croc are especially difficult and what method or tricks do you employ?

People must NOT confuse a Croc hunt with that of an Alligator. They are not the same.

My first ever croc was hectic. We tried to do it the conventional way and it does NOT work well.

Nowadays I prefer the client to bring a big strong setup - read arrow - with a cut on contact tip of strong design. I have a complete fishing setup in camp with me. The arrow has a 400lb braided line on it and on the end there is a float attached. We go out and try and shoot the fishing arrow into the croc either from a boat (easiest way) or from land.

Get into the boat and follow the float. Position the boat directly above the croc with the PH holding the line taught. I have markers on the line so that I know exactly how deep the croc is.

When the croc comes up for air the client then draws his heavy setup and aims to shoot for the brain when the head pops up. The scull is not to hard or thick from the top but any other part of the croc is like armour if it is a big one.

If the shot is good, the croc will die immediatly. If not then you have to repeat the process.

I found that it works better at night. Afterwords it is the job of the team to extract the croc and load it into the boat.

The secret is to find the best area for doing the hunt.

For Hippo the area is also important because you need a good body shot into the lungs. If half of a Hippo is above the water it is more than enough. His lungs are high and long. A Good arrow into the lungs will bring him out of the water fairly fast or he will die close to shore.

We have also done it at night on land when they come out to feed where we rigged a blind and shot from there.

There is much more to it but it will take up to much typing to explain the finer details.

Now gentlemen we are getting down to some real information, instead of cussing!

In my case when hunting cape buffalo I want to get in close for the first shot, just like a bow hunter, and if the animal has to be followed I want to be included in the shooting there as well. This has nothing to do with EGO, but is simply my training from birth, by my family, to always finish what you start, and if you make a mess CLEAN IT UP!
............................................................................. BYE folks
...............................GOOD HUNTING! .......................
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