I came in to the office this morning for some peace and quiet. It was my intention to begin writing my hunting report for my latest adventure. I quickly checked my usual stops on AR and the posts I had been watching. One of these posts is titled “Shooting YOUNG lions – A TOTAL DISGRACE”, this post has been going for a few days now and has drawn some fish from the deepest, darkest depths of AR. I also clicked over to the Hunting Reports forum to check if there had been any comments on Wrldhuntrs report which inspired the “Shooting YOUNG lions” thread. Imagine my surprise to find that Wrldhuntr had deleted all of his posts about his hunt. Because he could only delete the content and not the actual post, he had replaced the original content with a few choice select words. The original content was the combination of a story and pictures. Upon seeing the words that had replaced the story and pictures, I cannot accurately describe the feeling I had with a word less dramatic than “sorrow”. Why should I feel any emotion? I do not know this guy from Adam, I wouldn’t recognize him if I ran into him, why should a few single words stir any emotion? The words, “forget it”, “over it” and “gone”.
*
The Story was a tale from the man who actually experienced the reality, the reality from its first conception as an idea or dream to go hunting to the acquisition of funds to pay for the adventure, to the effort to plan the adventure, to the actual experience of going on and living the adventure, to coming home and taking the time to put it down on screen and post it so that others could see what he had done. The pictures, I believe, were posted out of fear and doubt that his words could relay, describe or make believable the entirety of what he had experienced.
*
It made me think about why someone would take the time to write a report and post it, which for those who have never written a detailed report of 2-3 weeks of their life, it is quite time consuming. After all, he actually experienced the adventure, sharing it with friends is one thing, sharing it with a bunch of strangers is something different entirely. Perhaps he gets some satisfaction from “bragging”, perhaps he knows and acknowledges the “fix” he has received while reading others reports while “lurking”, perhaps those reports are where the “dream” was sown, perhaps he realized this would be the closest he would ever come to being published and derived some satisfaction from writing about and others reading about an adventure he actually lived, perhaps he hoped some who will not ever experience something so divine would have the opportunity to experience it through his words and their imaginations.
*
My next thought was a question, what would make someone so motivated by what they had experienced, replace their tale with words like “forget it”, “over it”, and “gone”? The first thing that came to mind was the decades I spent growing up in deer camp here in Texas. Every time a deer would come into camp on the back of a jeep, hours of arguing would ensue. The men I respected most would begin picking the deer apart, how old was it? Did it have brow tines? Would it ever have brow tines? Did it have a fork? Would it ever have a fork? Was this the kind of deer we wanted breeding? Inevitably, some would begin drinking and the debate would devolve into an argument, which typically ended in someone getting into their truck and leaving, swearing they would never return to deer camp (we should have been so lucky). In the hundreds of these “discussions” that I witnessed, I was always amazed that no one ever directed the conversation to who shot the deer, or if it was a child, who told the child to shoot the deer. It was if there was an invisible line that even the inebriated knew, you did not cross. Unfortunately, even with this line respected, some were alienated. I watched my older brother become completely disconnected from deer camp, and who could blame him, who wants to kill something and then bring it back for confession just to be mercilessly judged. There were other victims as well, some not even present. For those who grew up in a similar environment, you know that many of your social skills developed from these dysfunctional places and events. How much more damage would have been done if words and phrases like “A TOTAL DISGRACE”, or “disease and pestilence”, or “fucking travesty”, or “half ass SOB”, or “piss poor”, or “whores”, or “pathetic, or comparing the hunters actions to “rape”?
*
Well, the world has evolved (for me at least), there is no more deer camp. All of the men I grew up aspiring to be like are dead, and my siblings and equals have been swallowed by the world we live in. The properties owned and run by my grandparents generation who gave us free reign over, have been realized to be no longer economically viable by my parents generation and have been either developed or broken up and sold. The upside is that I have been blessed, and have taken the passion that was planted in me at deer camp and have traveled the world to pursue it, hunting. I have seen things I thought I would only read about in books, I have taken the lives and held in my hands creatures I didn’t even know existed, literally. I have seen and experienced cultures completely foreign to even my imagination. But sometimes when I get home, I get on my computer and login to “deer camp” to see how everyone else’s hunt went. Sometimes I even tell my own hunting story, despite my anxiety that thousands of critics are going to pick my “deer” apart, and use me as an example to others of how not to behave.
*
Perhaps I will work on my hunting report next week, I pray that those who have taken the time to read this, realize that my intent is genuine and there is no reason to be defensive, even if you see your own reflection in some of these statements. If you are truly concerned about hunting, when dealing with hunting’s issues, speak with a civil tongue. The loss of a hunter or his involvement is a much larger tragedy or disgrace than the loss of any single animal.
*
Brad

505,

Very well said, Thank you. I started the same thing and ran it by a friend before posting. His response was;

Why waste your time, There are very few who hunt for their soul as you do.

This whole cluster f*#k is in my opinion like politics in Washington. It has divided the ranks. And for what? I think there are ulterior motives at play, just can't figure out what they are.......yet.

If anybody wonders if Worldhunters lion hunt is tarnished just go have a look at his hunt report.

WELL DONE......

BTW, I still completely agree with the LCTF mission. But you not only threw the baby out with the washwater, you shot in in the head...execution style.

Brad,

Well said.

That entire lion thread is a total disgrace that accomplished nothing but to allow every armchair lion hunting expert on AR to saddle up on their high horse and lecture the PH, outfitter, hunter, and anyone else who disagrees with them.

I agree with the need for lion conservation but the delivery of the message in this instance sucks. No laws were broken yet a reputable operator and his PH were run down and called names, a fellow hunter was made to feel like shit because some didn't like his lion, and the entire community here has been diminished so some can apparently claim to hold the ethical high ground.

I feel very badly for wrldhunter, what a shitty introduction to AR for him.

Ditto to all above.
Frankly, I think Aaron's post is disgraceful.
There are far better ways to support Lion conservation.

Brad,
Thanks for taking the time to post this. 'Hope you find your peace and quiet at the office. It is a shame that a man's dream gets picked apart by nameless, faceless cowards. Its a very real risk we take when posting anything on the internet.

I just got on a deer lease that sounds very similiar to the one you describe. Lots of guys of very different "socio-economic" backgrounds on a large west Texas ranch. I really got on it to support an older friend at church that "manages" this broad mix from every corner of Texas and even from other states. I've enjoyed getting to know a new piece of property, but realize that it can easily devolve into the pissing contests you describe. Thankfully, I'm old enough now to just sit back and watch these human-interaction tragedies and/or comedies; 'know when to head to my own trailer, etc. I'm sure a lot of shrinks would blanket diagnose the nit-picking as "low self-esteem" and there are bucket loads of that on any internet forum.

The decision to post hunt reports does not come with a guarantee of nothing but back slapping praise. If anyone thinks that’s reality then they will end up with a surprise. Rest assured, hunting is not the only pursuit in which you will see review involved. Try the collector car market on for size. I’ve had “know it all’s” at car shows tell me my Roadrunner couldn’t possibly have a 440 - 6 in it originally because it has a E63 on the fender tag (the code for a 383). Those same clueless experts had no idea what the A12 code meant.

The first large (relative term) animal I ever killed was a whitetail doe with a bow. I got 3 straight days of ridicule as a 16 year old from a dozen “grown men” I couldn’t get away from in a deer camp in PA. Did it scar me emotionally? NO!! I saw them shoot a bow and they didn’t have a pray of hitting anything. It didn’t diminish my sense of accomplishment and that deer sure was tasty.

I have talked with wrdhunter, before his posts disappeared. I think his attitude is about the same as mine was about the deer. His life hasn’t ended, his perception of his hunt is still the same. As to why his posts are gone, you can theorize all you want.

What I’m saying is people will always judge based on their personal standards. Some to your face, some behind your back or anonymously on the internet. I suppose if you aren’t emotionally bullet proof then you shouldn’t put parts of your life up publicly for others to see and comment on. Look at the now viral Elephant video of Bob Parson’s and it’s repercussions.

This whole affair will be like ripples in a pond when a pebble is thrown in. I predict this will not be the last thread concerning the topic. I also predict this thread like all to follow will end up with a few frequent posters picking sides and then pissing on each other and the topic at large.

Folks, this is the world of internet forums, if you expect something different you will only find disappointment.

I, for one, will post future hunt reports. I’ve learned from past ones. I learned from wrdhunter’s report. Some things I learned were negative. Some things to come out of the report will end up positive in the way of further education on the science of the topic of Lion conservation.

We will all make personal decisions about future involvement on AR based on our feelings derived from those threads and future threads. Just remember, your opinion is just that, your opinion. I am going to try and be a JudgeG clone as much as possible in the tenure of my posts but fact is, I am who I am, I grew up outside Philly, and I might offend you sometime. Your mileage may vary.

Amen Brad. Amen.

Fellows, YOU are GENTLEMEN!

quote:

Originally posted by conifer:
Fellows, YOU are GENTLEMEN!

+1
Too bad there are far to many "know-it-alls" that get there kicks from beating on someone else.

505 and others,

After reading your post...I concede your correctness on many of your points. I was raised by old men of another era as well and share many of your concerns...and...perhaps it could have been done better.

But...for every surgery I have performed in my life...I usually did the next better...that is why it is called "the practice of medicine". And...when I learned of a new procedure that I thought could help a horse...there always had to be a first...usually superceded by many done better.

For the LCTF to have credibility...something had to be said about that lion...just a fact of life for the members. We (LCTF members) were also privy to some infromation that we are bound to not share which would change a few minds if they knew it. But...regardless something had to be said...maybe next time...we will do it better...or...maybe Saeed will bar us from discussion I don't know...but...for us to have credibility with the folks we are working with...we had to say something...and...I still feel it was the 100% correct thing to have done...just my opinion.

As far as the language goes...I will say this we certainly should clean it up and some of your words in " " are mine...I own up. But...some of your complementors here...Nganga...use the f-word a lot on here too...I feel compelled to point that out. And if you go back read a lot of threads here...those words come out many times...not just in Aaron's thread.

It was an emotional thread for me too. And I'll guarantee you that before Aaron got into seeing how the opposition works...this topic would have been one in which he might have been on the fence about...hence Bwanamich's response about where were you last time I brought this up. Aaron has been transformed by our work...and...Aaron is a person in which adrenaline runs high...which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Anyway 505 & others...I apologize for any of my language which offended and promise to try and improve my "practice of diplomacy" in regards to subjects pertaining to the LCTF work...because the lion...needs support from all!!!

505 Gibbs, excellent post, my hat is off to you Sir.

505 gibbs:

I applaude you sir !

But on a wider scale, does the same not apply to the whole of the AR community?

"This site was started by a group of shooters, whose interests include hunting, target shooting and plain plinking. The idea was to share what we have learned from hunting, reloading, gunsmithing and any other shooting related ideas. We are not affiliated to any company involved in the shooting and hunting sports. So what you will find here are our actual experiences, good or bad. If you have any interesting ideas, or if you have come across anything you think might be of interest to other fellow shooters, please consider sharing it with us, we would love to hear from you."

As " mission statement" to this site one can but wonder how is it that a community of "like minded" individuals can get to where they are now?

To those who care, my goal was not to point a finger or place blame for shabby behaviour, as my own has been questionable on more than one occasion, nor was it to question the intentions of others. It was simply to show that something (far more valuable than an immature lion) had been needlessly lost.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:

quote:

Originally posted by conifer:
Fellows, YOU are GENTLEMEN!

+1
Too bad there are far to many "know-it-alls" that get there kicks from beating on someone else.

+2 Hat's off to you guys.

"Know-it-alls" are something that is never in short supply around here.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
505 and others,

After reading your post...I concede your correctness on many of your points. I was raised by old men of another era as well and share many of your concerns...and...perhaps it could have been done better.

But...for every surgery I have performed in my life...I usually did the next better...that is why it is called "the practice of medicine". And...when I learned of a new procedure that I thought could help a horse...there always had to be a first...usually superceded by many done better.

For the LCTF to have credibility...something had to be said about that lion...just a fact of life for the members. We (LCTF members) were also privy to some infromation that we are bound to not share which would change a few minds if they knew it. But...regardless something had to be said...maybe next time...we will do it better...or...maybe Saeed will bar us from discussion I don't know...but...for us to have credibility with the folks we are working with...we had to say something...and...I still feel it was the 100% correct thing to have done...just my opinion.

As far as the language goes...I will say this we certainly should clean it up and some of your words in " " are mine...I own up. But...some of your complementors here...Nganga...use the f-word a lot on here too...I feel compelled to point that out. And if you go back read a lot of threads here...those words come out many times...not just in Aaron's thread.

It was an emotional thread for me too. And I'll guarantee you that before Aaron got into seeing how the opposition works...this topic would have been one in which he might have been on the fence about...hence Bwanamich's response about where were you last time I brought this up. Aaron has been transformed by our work...and...Aaron is a person in which adrenaline runs high...which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Anyway 505 & others...I apologize for any of my language which offended and promise to try and improve my "practice of diplomacy" in regards to subjects pertaining to the LCTF work...because the lion...needs support from all!!!

Lane,
Did I use the F word somewhere? or do I not understand your post?

Steve

505 - Excellent, thanks for writing what many of us tried to get across in the other post.
The tone and word selection was uncalled for. Even if the message was for the better good of the lion, thats still no excuse.

Can't we just all get along?

I tried to find a crying emoticon but failed.

quote:

Lane,
Did I use the F word somewhere? or do I not understand your post?

Steve

My point was that many opining that 505 has a point (which I sated above that I was one of) have been guilty of using foul language in the past themselves. Those who have will know in there own hearts.

quote:

It was simply to show that something (far more valuable than an immature lion) had been needlessly lost.

Or...maybe he learned something.

BTW...I too applaud 505's post...it made me think as well! 505 Gibbs!!!

GOOD POST
But while we bicker, I suspect my son will never get to have the thrill I had in taking a Lion!
If the world still thinks Ele's are "endangered" (see go daddy related posts), Lions will soon be denied us irrespective of population and what Kenya proves...

Brad is right.

No matter the legitimacy of their motive, Aaron's and Lane's response - and the vitriol they inspired in others - to Wrldhuntr's hunt report was shameful. I'm embarrassed that such lack of civility has pushed out a new member who's only crime was to go to Africa and engage in a legal hunt.

If this is a trend, and politics and personal zeal replace common courtesy and respect on AR, then others will also refrain from posting their hunt reports - and this will spell the demise of our community.

Frothing-at-the-mouth zealotry is no substitute for a calm, sober, and considerate exchange of ideas. If the goal was to polarize a target constituency, then Aaron and Lane succeeded brilliantly.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Lane,
Did I use the F word somewhere? or do I not understand your post?

Steve

My point was that many opining that 505 has a point (which I sated above that I was one of) have been guilty of using foul language in the past themselves. Those who have will know in there own hearts.

OK,
I get it now, yes, I have been guilty as charged in the past. Since my lobotomy I have tried to clean things up.

Steve

quote:

As " mission statement" to this site one can but wonder how is it that a community of "like minded" individuals can get to where they are now?

Because we are all strong willed, and capable of independent thought on any subject, and are usually quite willing to express our opinions.

Just an observation here, but it seems that many times our individual thoughts and feelings on whatever the subject at hand is, cause us to develope tunnel vision/tunnel thought and we seem to stop reading or comprehending what others are saying or trying to say, simply because it does not match what are individual thought or sentiments are at the time.

This will always be the anti-hunting factions greatest weapon, as a group, we are so dedicated to hunting and what it means to us, I feel that we lose sight of the fact that it means different things to each and every one of us, and because of that blindness we lose perspective with each other on issues that we should not.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
For the LCTF to have credibility...something had to be said about that lion...just a fact of life for the members.

I respect you Lane and consider you a friend but I have to respectfully disagree here. That thread is no credit to the LCTF and I my opinion the scorched Earth type of approach that was used is no way for the LCTF to build credibility.

quote:

Brad is right.

just thought that was worth re-posting. I am going to show this to my wife.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

Lane,
Did I use the F word somewhere? or do I not understand your post?
Steve

"This whole cluster f*#k is in my opinion like politics in Washington"

Nah!!

Brad,

Perfect!

THX

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

Lane,
Did I use the F word somewhere? or do I not understand your post?
Steve

"This whole cluster f*#k is in my opinion like politics in Washington"

Nah!!

your kidding?

I just want to say that I have asked to help with the lion problem and without that post would not have found a way. So some good comes from everything. I personally don't hold any ill will towards the hunter as 30 years ago i walked a mile in his shoes. I think that everyone here feels bad how the whole thing went but thre is a reason to be positive about doing something constuctive to help combat anti hunting factions.I hope everyone has a great year hunting and remember that the majority of people are against us in every way and we can not give up and let them win. good hunting to sll fellow AR members!

What is LCTJ?

Well said and thank you. I was troubled by the thread, and I appreciate you articulating why.

505,

If there was a "like" button on here, I would click it.

quote:

Originally posted by KPete:
Brad is right.

No matter the legitimacy of their motive, Aaron's and Lane's response - and the vitriol they inspired in others - to Wrldhuntr's hunt report was shameful. I'm embarrassed that such lack of civility has pushed out a new member who's only crime was to go to Africa and engage in a legal hunt.

If this is a trend, and politics and personal zeal replace common courtesy and respect on AR, then others will also refrain from posting their hunt reports - and this will spell the demise of our community.

Frothing-at-the-mouth zealotry is no substitute for a calm, sober, and considerate exchange of ideas. If the goal was to polarize a target constituency, then Aaron and Lane succeeded brilliantly.

Thank you Kim! Does that mean we can count on your support?

quote:

Originally posted by Cane Rat:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
For the LCTF to have credibility...something had to be said about that lion...just a fact of life for the members.

I respect you Lane and consider you a friend but I have to respectfully disagree here. That thread is no credit to the LCTF and I my opinion the scorched Earth type of approach that was used is no way for the LCTF to build credibility.

Andy,

I hear you, very much respect your opinion, and count you as friend as well.

But...behind the scenes...I got 1 negative PM and a multitude of positives PM's and emails. And the scientists in the group now see that Aaron is willing to stand up for what IS right against his own fraternity.

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

quote:

Originally posted by Frostbit:

quote:

Originally posted by Nganga:

Lane,
Did I use the F word somewhere? or do I not understand your post?
Steve

"This whole cluster f*#k is in my opinion like politics in Washington"

Nah!!

your kidding?

Dear Mr Nganga, I was deeply offended (nay, shattered) by your use of that dreadful word.

Most of us here would NEVER even consider resorting to such appalling language and I respectfully ask that you refrain from using profanity in the future.

If you don't, I will never read any more of your f*#^ing posts again.

Good day, Sir.

quote:

Originally posted by twoseventy:
What is LCTJ?

Lion Conservation Task Force

Guys - Regardless of the delivery, I do think my thread was necessary. Granted, my emotions at the MOMENT got the better of me, but I would do it again. Maybe with a different presentation, but certainly the same message.

Interestingly, I am surprised that more folks seem concerned with personal feelings than the hugely detrimental issue facing the lion/Africa? I made it clear that I was not pointing the finger at the hunter, but somewhere that message was lost? Regardless of my initial delivery, wrong is wrong. And shooting that lion, is simply wrong!

Second, I completely and totally understand the defense of a friend. I too will defend my friends, probably more so than most. But rest assured, if Richard Bell-Cross, someone who I consider one of my closest friends, had shot that lion, I would jump his shit quicker than anyone. On a public forum, in private, and everywhere in between. Our friendship would not excuse poor ethical/management practices as they pertain to the lion. I would always support Richard/Pro-Hunt, but I would condemn him just as quickly, if he had shot that lion.

Third, I found it very surprising that some feel the outfitter's personal issues, somehow are an excuse for poor management practices. One poster told me the DuPlooy's have lots of "mouths to feed", for lack of a better term. Really??? So that makes it ok??? Or hey, the quota is there, so why not? Seriously? That's all the more concern we should have for Africa's wildlife?

Some say I was mean, rude, inconsiderate, etc. Ok, I appreciate that, and have apologized for the initial delivery. I mean it when I say, I am sorry. How about on the flip side, the incosiderate/selfish actions of the PH? As a collective whole, PH's in Zambia are ALL in this fight together. Does anyone here, honestly think that the recent and continued shooting of lions just like the one in question, had nothing to do with the recent lion quota reduction, country-wide? A quota reduction that effected the Duplooy's GREATLY, and removed 15 other lions off quota. Do you not think that every PH in Zambia has a moral/ethical responsibility to his fellow PH/Operators? I certainly do. Actions like the shooting of this lion, will continue to have negative effects upon ALL of Zambia's professional hunting operations, including the eventual elimination of lion hunting all-together, if changes aren't made. So how does that fit into the minds of the considerate natured?

Lastly, and guys with a little humor here. Really funny thing is, a few of the guys that are on the public forum condemning me for being mean/rude, etc. Sent me PM's that make my posts look laughable! Honestly, it bothers me not in the least. If you're gonna take on a controversial issue, you can't be sensitive. I'm not, and will not be, as long as the lion's future is at stake. Fact is, I've received alot of favorable PM's too. But overall I conceed, and agree. I should have started it off a little better, that part I regret, but not the message.

This thread is ridiculous.

Thoughts that come to mind: Grow some skin. Toughen up. Deal with it.

No small irony either that the originator of this thread is tarring himself with his own brush, albeit unintentionally, I'm sure.

All one needs to do is search some of 505 gibbs's posts here on AR to see the vitriol he is capable of spewing. I know perhaps better than most since I was a target of some of his nonsense in the thread I started on the Asian forum about hunting in Iran.

Alas, but I somehow managed to blot my bitter tears, blow my nose, and continue living, and posting here on AR.

Aaron's point is 100% valid. One may quibble with the delivery, but not the point taken.

For me, if anyone posts a hunt report, I think he had damned well be prepared to stand by it. The problem with wrldhunter seems to have been that he didn't know he had sinned until he had publicly admitted it.

If I were calling the shots, and I'm not, I'd give him absolution for that, perhaps with a few Hail Marys thrown in for the sake of the lions.