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Merry Christmas & Seasons Greetings I haven't posted in a while but felt so passionately about this, that just felt the need to. In exactly 19 days my membership to SCI will expire & I will allow it to. Reasons? many have been discussed on these boards to death. Mine are in a nutshell: The OoA cock up, they (the officers) held on too tight for too long until there was no other option, in my opinion showing a complete lack of doing the right thing in the face of overwhelming circumstantial evidence at every turn. The Mark Sullivan thing, no need to rehash but was he given the same benefit of the doubt that OoA was? Ethics committee: Frickin Joke. There are several other issues in play like: Have a look at the Auction preview you just received, have a look at the Navajo Nation donations, Ask yourself how did they get those? I can sure as hell tell you. The organization no longer represents my honorable passion for wildlife conservation and education, I will continue to serve the Phoenix Chapter, not as a board member as I have for 10 years but as a non-voting committee member. I feel many others feel the same but don't know what to do about it, this is my small, single way to protest. Member# 20001102 Regards, Steve Formerly "Nganga" | ||
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Steve, You cannot "...continue to serve the Phoenix Chapter..." unless you renew your SCI membership as you cannot be a chapter member unless you are an SCI member. I hope you will change your mind about renewing your membership. Guess we won't see you in Reno. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Mike, I know thats why I said "as a non voting committee member" Steve Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Steve: Are you going to tell them why? | |||
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Larry, TRUST me!!! they know, I'm not shy.  I really believe if enough people did this they would have to change course. Steve Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Nganga, 2 things First, what is the deal with the Injuns? Second, SCI seems to precisely reflect the percentages of hunters I have met. A small number are great men and women who care "First for the Animals" and strive to push themselves to the very highest standards. A large majority are preening, ego stroking donkeys. That's the way it is buddy. Hunting is competitive to the majority, whether it is for Whitetail deer or Cape Buffalo or Turkeys. Its all about "more and bigger and bragging to their fellow morons (aka Voters). Again, these are the majority of hunters. And so what, they overlook the misdeads of their friends and hold their enemies to a standard they can't themselves meet. That's how we monkeys operate. How many parents overlook the obvious failures and flaws of their kids? All of us do. Hold yourself to the standards that you can barely meet, and take quiet pride in "how" you do it. If SCI does more damage than good for the future of hunting, then we get exactly what we deserve. Whether you stay a member or not, don't make our future any more dim than it already is. | |||
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I would like to know what "they" did to get the Indian donations? | |||
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unlike the bitching, just thought that was worth posting again. | |||
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I find myself in complete agreement with 505 Gibbs (hope you don't mind) on this issue. The question is, how many...? Good Post. Rich DRSS | |||
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SG, I think your response is very intuitive, I for one hunt for my soul, purity of purpose if you will. I have measured exactly 2 of my animals, a 200 inch mule deer and a 240 inch moose. I don't care if other people do, just not my "cup of tea" The "contest" aspect of SCI makes me want to shit myself. There is a guy on our board with "the ring". He deserved winning it and it is beautiful. But it doesn't reflect my personal values. I won't try to make anybody feel like I do except to say that I bet many do. How do we as men make a stand then? This is but my meager protest to an organization that in my belief has lost it's way. The Navajo Nation hunt donation came through our chapter, me specifically. I have had a fantastic relationship with the Navajo Game department for 8 years and have always handled the donations to our chapter. My contact phoned me about 60 days ago and asked me about how he might get a Desert Sheep Tag and the Special Mule Deer tag in the convention. Really, I asked? I took the time to make sure the donation was put in the program, (for national) even though time was short, it had to happen that day as they were proofing it that day. To make a long story short it all happened to everyones satisfaction. Fast Forward to a month ago, I was in Africa and asked for a favor from National (on my sat phone)for a professional hunters organization. They denied the request. It just was the end of the game for me. National is in it for National. If a professional hunting organization is not directly in SCI's collective wheelhouse, who then is? To make matters worse, when I returned home, some Chapter members made light of my request at our last BOD meeting, How did they even know? Being in Phoenix and National being only 100 miles away there is a lot of inbreeding from Chapter to National here, just by the nature of being close. Again, not trying to sway anybody but........Actions are stronger than words. Steve Oryxhunter, "They" did nothing inappropriate to get the donations, just thankless and self centered actions. Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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I have not always agreed with everything Nganga has posted, but I do salute his stand on this one. Any man that can work with the folks at the "big rez" and get a donation out of them, has to be doing something right. Good hunting sir. | |||
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Steve, I made the same decision earlier in the year and let mine expire without renewing. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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Steve: I applaud you for taking action on what you believe in. Unfortunately, I think it would take a mass number of similar actions to get their attention. The dues are simply too small. While there is certainly no small number of "preening, ego stricken donkeys", I really don't think they are the majority. The actions of a few are what most people see and remember. I have mixed feelings about the record book. While, I personally measure everything, I do it just for my own knowledge, especially on those animals I know little about. I haven't registered anything since my second safari in 1991. I see no problem as a fund raising tool. It seems there is too much emphasis on it. While SCI aggravates me, they do have some problem people, they are still the best equipped organization to protect our rights IMHO. I am going to continue to support them although I have serious concerns about their actions or lack thereof. | |||
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Cazador, They really are a great tribe with an extremely rich hunting heritage. The game department is a piece of cake to deal with. That "Special Mule Deer" tag has yielded several 220-235 inch Mule Deer in good antler growth years. Lee, nice to hear from you, call me if your in town over the holidays. Is there even a Guam Chapter? Larry, Your correct, I think the dues mean nothing to them. It would take a mass exodus to get their attention. As with any organization members or customer come and go, when the "critical mass" is moving away, they get the message. how many would it take? 30? 100? 500? Steve Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Steve, Sounds like you are connected enough that they will at least hear about it. Someone like you that has been involved, and then stops, for a pointed reason is likely to get through. I am a member, and am scheduled to go to the convention for the first time this year. I just thought it would be fun to see "the show" and all. I really think that SCI would be best served to take a page from the NRA and use its officer positions as elected by the membership as a whole. They really don't do a good job of being transparent, especially the "ethics committee" portion. I'm sure their reasoning is that they would have legal ramifications if they publicized things, and it seems that in general in the commercial hunting world the individual customer is the last person on the pecking order for getting listened to. If I were you I would send the SCI president, with copies to your chapter president and anyone you think might have impact (such as the tribal leaders that talked to you about getting in), a statement of what you think they did wrong and politely remind them of how much you have done for the organization, and then tell them of what you are doing because of this. Any org of this size has considerable year to year turnover of membership and likely unless slapped in the face with it would just consider your loss as part of the usual turnover. Since the official line is that the chapter presidents are the source of all power in SCI, you may well have more effect telling your "friends" at the local SCI chapter that until they bring it up and its addressed at the national level, that they have seen the last of your support for them as well. I have said in the past, and still believe, that SCI is probably the best organization for big game hunting we have. Unfortunately, they do have a lot of problems related to people using their positions for ego gain IMO. | |||
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So Steve, You going to Reno or not? Jim ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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The unfortunate truth is that no matter what we say here nor what we do as regards membership will have the slightest impact on how SCI functions. And if you haven't been a chapter president and attended the meetings in D.C. or worked for them directly, you probably have no idea how the organization is run and by whom. You don't get to vote for anything in SCI and you never will. The chapter presidents are supposed to represent you with their vote but don't believe for a moment that works. That is why I find the frequent SCI bashing threads so frustrating. They are no more than a waste of time and Saeed's bandwidth. Collectively we could all quit and it wouldn't change a thing. However, SCI does have the money and the bully pulpit to do good for hunting, and they do. They are always a voice for hunters at CITES as an example and this cannot be minimized if you understand the dynamics of a CITES meeting and the effect their decisions have on worldwide hunting. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Well, i did exactly the same thing as Nganga last month and let my membership lapse. sent SCI an email and told them why(no response). Rich, when you threatened to assault me at the SCI convention next month( in your "I am famous" thread), i reminded you that i wouldn't be there and why. so the question truly is -"how many? since you obviously are not one of the people to take a stand, you sound a mite hypocritical. in the past 20 years i have spent well over $75,000 purchasing donated hunts and fishing trips alone, not to mention other auction items and admission fees, dues, etc. the fine folks in Phoenix will get no more until they show they are capable of policing their own ranks. but of course the hypocrits must decide for themselves. Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Jim, Unfortunately I wont be allow in. Members only  . A HUGE part of my delay in making this decision was and is not being able to meet some AR people with whom I've made friends with. You are high upon that list Jim. I really agonized not telling you while we were planning our transcontinential bike ride your doing with me, but really didn't make my mind up till this morning while bike riding. There are probably 10-12 PH's I've hunted with I will not get to see this years as well, I think that is part of the draw for many. BTW, In regards, to another thread it was ONLY 82 degrees here today!!!! Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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seeing old friends/PH's I hunted with in the past,at the SCI convention, is the biggest( and basically the only ) thing I will miss. and they obviously won't miss my money. 2012 Dallas here i come! Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend… To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP | |||
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Just my 2 cents worth .. Yes they do things from time to time that we all might dilike intensly, they sometimes dont reflect the wishes of all BUT in the big picture thay are still the only worldwide organisation that works for hunting and conservation. If we threw the toys out the cot each time your and my elected government went wrong we would NEVER have a government. If we dont like what is going on then make changes from the inside. WE collectively have the power to make any organisation bow to our wishes. If wiki leaks can do it then why cant we do it !! Cheers, Peter | |||
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Steve Good to see you back my friend!  Peter, Hope you won't mind my pointing out that you can't make changes from the inside because the bye-laws prevent ordinary members voting. | |||
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I quit being a member years ago. Interesting comments about the bitching just being bitching and SCI will never change and SCI does good things so just live with it or try and change it from within but if you complain you are just bitching. SCI reminds me of many corrupt environments. Kinda like corrupt politicians always bringing back pork barrel projects for their district. Every time they are indicted their supporters come out and defend them taking about how many government projects that got awarded to the home district even though they just got caught influence pedaling. The above should not be interpreted as local SCI Chapters being corrupt. As far as how much SCI really does...follow their money trail and make up your own mind. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I think if people want to use their money to assist hunting in Africa and associated projects, they're far better off giving it to John Jackson & Conservation Force who achieve a lot more with a lot less. | |||
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Bite me!! ______________________ DRSS ______________________ Hunt Reports 2015 His & Her Leopards with Derek Littleton of Luwire Safaris - http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/2971090112 2015 Trophy Bull Elephant with CMS http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/1651069012 DIY Brooks Range Sheep Hunt 2013 - http://forums.accuratereloadin...901038191#9901038191 Zambia June/July 2012 with Andrew Baldry - Royal Kafue http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/7971064771 Zambia Sept 2010- Muchinga Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/4211096141 Namibia Sept 2010 - ARUB Safaris http://forums.accuratereloadin...6321043/m/6781076141 | |||
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Shakari, Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't SCI have a pretty big relationship with Conservation Force / John Jackson? I understand he used to be their in-house lawyer on a lot of these issues and then went on his own, but as I recall (from memory, which was not too long ago proven a bit off here) according to the SCI funding report, I think they still give him and his outfit some money. I don't know Mr. Jackson, and he seems to be one of the better lawyers on "our" side, but it would be interesting to see what he has to say about SCI. I know of one guy who was going to have John Jackson do some work on a trophy issue, and he wanted a fair chunk of change to take the issue, so Conservation Force is not a "Pro Bono" hunter's advocacy group that does all its work on the donations it receives. | |||
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Steve, No local chapter here that I am aware of. I will be in PHX, but only for a matter of hours; I'll keep in touch and maybe next time I'll be in town a little longer. ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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As far as temperatures go, today was a high of 86 and a low of 74, just like the day before, and the day before that, and the day before that..... When I first moved here it used to amuse the hell out of me to track the number of different ways the weather people come up with to say, "Sunny with a chance of showers." ____________________________________________ "Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life." Terry Pratchett. | |||
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I believe SCI have a big/primary relationship with SCIF but I don't know how much they have to do with JJ/CF nowadays. JJ did indeed have a lot to do with SCI in the past but I don't know what the situation is now, except that if SCI did have much to do with JJ/CF nowadays, I'd have thought they wouldn't be backward in coming forward in claiming credit for his successes...... and to the best of my knowlwedge, they haven't done that. - I could be wrong though and if I am, I'm sure someone will tell us. If your friend asked JJ to represent him, I'd have thought that would be a simple business arrangement and as JJ is who he is, I wouldn't have expected him to be cheap but you get what you pay for and I'd have thought it would be money well spent....... perhaps your friend should have approached SCI for help?  (oops, sorry about that but I just couldn't resist it!)  CF usually seem to deal with wider issues such as whether lions will be elevated to CITES I rather than the current CITES II and (IMO) they do a fantastically good job at that. I have no end of admiration for JJ & CF and think he/they should get considerably more thanks from the hunting community thay seem to currently get. Steve, 83F or 29C here at 0945 hrs! | |||
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Just mailed my dues in on Saturday, Greater Atlanta Chapter. I may not agree with everything they do but I am not ready to throw them under the bus. SCI helped me go to Africa 3 times and I am not a wealthy man. So I must dance with the ones I came with. | |||
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Please allow me to clarify/answer some of the things that have been brought up in this thread: 1. There is no "national." 2. SCI's international headquarters are in Tucson, not Phoenix. 3. One of my tasks as SCI's publications director from 1983 to 1999 was to review the hunting reports that members filed and select those that we would publish in Safari Magazine. It never failed to amaze me how differently hunters rated their hunts with the same outfitters. The reports from four guys in the same camp at the same time could range from calling their hunt "the best" to "worst hunt ever" and the outfitter would be called everything from "great" to "a crook." Many who complained had no basis for doing so, in my opinion. Although I was never privy to the Ethics Committee's hearings, it seemed obvious to me why only its final actions were made public: Transparency could easily damage an innocent party. 4. Losing 100, 200, or even 500 or 1,000 members would not greatly affect a club with 53,000 members. SCI had fewer than 10,000 members in the early 1980s when a dozen chapters quit in protest of having to pay 30% of their fundraising efforts, and SCI survived that crisis. All of those chapters except Dallas and Houston eventually returned to the fold. 5. I've always wondered who members reach when they call or write "SCI" to complain about something. A paid staff member may or may not have the authority to do something about the complaint, while an officer (including the president) probably would want to take the issue before his executive committee. 6. John Jackson served as SCI's president from 1995-1996. SCI's in-house lawyer was Rick Parsons, a former USFWS employee. After Jackson's term as president ended, there was a move to hire him to replace Parsons and run the club's lobbying and legislative efforts from its Washington D.C. office. When that didn't occur, Jackson launched Conservation Force and has operated independently from SCI/SCIF ever since. I know him to be a dedicated, hard-working guy worthy of our respect and admiration. We hunters need him doing what he does, but we also need SCI. 7. It is true that individual members do not get to vote. But it also is misleading. Board members, mostly comprised of chapter representatives, decide policy and elect officers. These representatives usually are chapter presidents, who are elected by a vote of the chapter's members. There is little difference between SCI and the NRA in this respect. Individual NRA members get to vote on who represents them, but all important issues are decided by the club's board of directors. Bill Quimby | |||
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Rug, good show! Bill your post got in while I was making the above comment. It is very interesting to see the good an org with 50,000+ membership does compared to an org (NRA) with millions of members. SCI does not walk on water but they sure aren't at the bottom of the lake. | |||
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Bill, We in Chapter meetings always refer to it as "National" meaning non-chapter business. Balla, This is not a governement but does behave like some thrid world dictatorship. The Executive Committee exists in some hazy cloud that clarity is not an option for members at large. The only way change is possible is, if the machine is broken, the membership needs to tell them, "this things is broke". If I didn't care about SCI, I would simply go away, I care enough to stand up and protest. I joined SCI originally because,(some members know this) I have a handicapped son, that may or may not be able to share with me, my passion for the incredible resource that lies in front of all of us. SCI is THE ONLY, non species specific conservation organization. And I though this may be my way to give something back, if I can't give to my son, my way of life. I simply wanted to make a difference in somebodies life. This is much deeper than just "taking my toys and going home". Steve Formerly "Nganga" | |||
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Of courase SCI is about the outfitters and others promoting their good at the annual show. At the end of the day regardless of cost to have a booth it is free choice, and many many do have a booth. NOW the main complaints from what I read is from the hunter themselves, not the outfitter and others selling their wares. Can someone please tell me specifically what is the hunters complaint about SCI, is is not promoting hunting and game conservation issues Cheers, Peter | |||
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Very admirable Steve! Perhaps the issue way to go is to make these issues well known at the local chapter level so the individual board members are acountable to their chapters. Brett DRSS Life Member SCI Life Member NRA Life Member WSF Rhyme of the Sheep Hunter May fordings never be too deep, And alders not too thick; May rock slides never be too steep And ridges not too slick. And may your bullets shoot as swell As Fred Bear's arrow's flew; And may your nose work just as well As Jack O'Connor's too. May winds be never at your tail When stalking down the steep; May bears be never on your trail When packing out your sheep. May the hundred pounds upon you Not make you break or trip; And may the plane in which you flew Await you at the strip. -Seth Peterson | |||
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The NRA is very much like SCI . While I do not agree with some of their policies, these orginazations are certainly better than none at all. I have been a life member of both the NRA and SCI for some time. Like our govenment, there are parts of it that stink, parts that you don't like, but we would really be in the shitter without them. | |||
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Amen
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billrquimby- Thanks for your input. I was hoping you would reply. Your point #4 is what people do not understand about SCI and I believe it is critical to a rational discussion. As to your #7, let's just say that in reality the influence and expectations placed upon the chapter presidents by the entrenched "higher" authorities can be overwhelming and their recommendations made can seem indisputable. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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Great point. I was in the business of manufacturing gifts for auctions for conservations organizations for several years (NRA, RM Elk, DU, SCI, etc, etc). Conservation organizations are just businesses; as they get big they attract, um, to be kind, some people with different motivations and personalities than the founders' motivations. One group wanted us to hide "made in china" stickers strategically (legally) so that people still thought the products were made in the USA. Funny but sad. They didn't give a crap about the US citizens that used to make the product and paid dues, just that it was as cheap as possible. IMHO, the public's opinion of hunters and hunting will continue to erode as long as the conservation organizations are run by people who don't know squat about the realities of public perception. The images of fat cats shooting trophies behind fences and acting like "men" will always hurt our sport. Period. That said, without these organizations we'd have less protected land and would be lucky to have the right to hunt at all. No organization's perfect. | |||
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