I am wondering if the apparently higher than normal number of hunt cancellations in Zim is caused political uncertainty within Zim or if it is caused by the U.S. economic downturn.

I don't see that either have progressed to the point that would cause a hunt cancellation. As far as the political situation, hunts are going on right now same as usual. I might be reluctant to have mom and the kids running around on the street of any major city buying nick nacks, but I wasn't too in favor of that before. It isn't Disneyland. And as to the economy, unless you have maxed out all your credit cards, just bought a house that you couldn't afford in the first place, and your boss just gave you a pink slip, I don't see that as a reason either. I booked an elephant hunt at DSC with HHK, and I plan to go unless my PH tells me not to.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
I am wondering if the apparently higher than normal number of hunt cancellations in Zim is caused political uncertainty within Zim or if it is caused by the U.S. economic downturn.

Dan,

Are you seeing a greater number of cancellations? Honestly, I would have expected more given the unrest in Zim. Clearly I think that the situation in Zim coupled with the economy are contributing factors. As the season progresses we may get a better sense if cancellations in other countries start to creep up that the driving factor is the economy. I just hope things stabalize in Zim by next May when I head back for another bull ele and buff.

"Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"

We're still going next month. Chicken Little says the sky is falling, but I've heard all that before....three years ago and counting.
LDK

quote:

Originally posted by L. David Keith:
We're still going next month. Chicken Little says the sky is falling, but I've heard all that before....three years ago and counting.
LDK

Ain't that the truth. I posted on here before, even a broken clock is right two times a day. At some point the purveyors of doom and gloom may actually be right, and I am sure that the moment that happens they will say, "see we told you so". What they won't say is that they had been preaching that same "the end of the world was near" for the preceding ten years and for nine of those years not a damn thing happened.

I think if this was my first trip I would be nervous. This ,however , will be trip #6 so I can make a plan as they say in Zim.

Leaving 4 weeks from tomorrow; not my first rodeo either.

I hear things are a little slow in Zambia as well... this is based on only one operator though. My intel from Zim confirms there have been cancellations there and the ongoing uncertainty and escalating intimidation is not helping. There is also some concern that the US govt will put in place some restrictions...either firearms or spending money or both.

Bodes well for some deals late in the season though.

I do not know the answer to the question originally posed, but I have travelled to several places that were in the same situation as Zim over the last years. In Russia, I saw plenty of potential trouble in the big cities (Moscow and Astrakhan on political issues) but no issues in the small cities. In Pakistan, I saw a huge mess in Karachi and Islamabad/Rawhalpindi(not sure what the issues actually were) but no problems in the rural areas. In Nigeria, I saw no problems in Lagos but was nearly overrun by riots in Warri and a near riot in Port Harcourt (over money). Our guys were kidnapped in the delta areas and held for ransom (money and food issues). In Papua New Guinea, nearly mobbed at the airport (money was the issue) in Port Moresby and around the town, and had serious problems in the highlands (food shortages).

All of this to say, every place is different - but if there is a food shortage, I would not want to be anywhere near a lot of people. Political unrest is one thing, but food shortages will get you held hostage or worse.

Dan is correct in that there do seem to be many more last minute bargans and for more than just Zim. The economy has just got to have a role in this. Regarding Zim in particular there does seem to be a "Boddington Effect" that has raised prices in the lower valley concessioins and some not so great adjacent concessions to the Chifuti price point and beyond. As was noted in the derailed comparison thread by Mark Young, there are competitive options to Zim when compared to "Boddington Effect" pricing, those being Namibia, Moz, Zambia and Tanz. This could also have play in the Zim cancellations.

Sometimes I wonder what planet some of you guys live on!

Hell yeah it is the unrest! Who gives a crap if you have been hearing about it for 3 years or 10 years, the political unrest is very real.

So you got lucky and your hunt was fine, so what? You played Russian roulette and lived, that doesn't mean it ins't dangerous. That doesn't make you brave or a genius, just lucky. Maybe it is only a 10% chance of loosing your hunt, or your trophies, or loosing your guns, or being in country during a civil war, that is a very real risk and problem.

When I'm dropping 10K-20K plus to go hunting I don't want to worry about that BS, and I don't want to worry for a year later that my trophies never make it out of the country. I'm going to enjoy myself and I don't want my enjoyment to envolve the worry about people shooting themselves with AK47s.

Some are willing to take that risk for a discounted price. It is a gamble some are willing to take and as things get worse and they ARE getting worse the price discount needs to increase to offset the gamble.

If you are happy to take the discount in exchange for taking the risk more power to you. The fact remains that no matter how many times you post that Zim is just fine in an effort to convince yourself it is safe doesn't make it true.

Well folks in my case it is the economy + the unrest in Zim, case closed!

The bargains in Zim are hard to pass, considering the economy today, and I am a dangerous game hunter,to the exception of all else. However there is one dangerous game I don't hunt, and that is a herd of 15 yr olds hungry, and hopped up locals with AK47, and axes! Zim is explosive,but cheap, and Tanzania is great hunting but price gouging. However, they are not the only places in Africa to hunt!

There are places to go where these things are rare, and though they cost a little more, are far more pleasurable places to hunt. The Caprivi Strip, for buffalo,and lion, the Luangwa Valley,for just about anything worth hunting, Botswana for Buffalo, and elephant.

These things are true, and sticking your head in the sand does nothing but get sand in your eyes, so you can't see what's coming. These are good reasons for concern, but as I said in the begining, they have simply priced me out of the field, when a cape Buffalo costs $15K +, my African hunting is at an end, regardless what happens in Zimbabwe!

.................................Good hunting, and good luck Guys! I'll read the hunt reports and dream of days gone by! Enjoy! BYE

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
I posted on here before, even a broken clock is right two times a day. At some point the purveyors of doom and gloom may actually be right, and I am sure that the moment that happens they will say, "see we told you so". What they won't say is that they had been preaching that same "the end of the world was near" for the preceding ten years and for nine of those years not a damn thing happened.

It's kinda like all the people that were stocking up for Y2K...

Nothing I'm hearing in the media is stopping me from going (US economy, political situations over seas, or otherwise) and this is my first trip...

I've booked with a reputable outfit and am keeping in constant communication with them....

When they tell me it's not safe or the US says I can't go then I'll make other plans....I'll only be out a deposit...

A good friend of mine always said "Don't get too excited till it happens"...

Just my .02...

Matt V.

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
Sometimes I wonder what planet some of you guys live on!

Vulcan. But I summer on Kolob.

Bwanahile, yes there are definitely more cancellations (and PHs losing hunt days) than in prior years, in my opinion.

Kolob, huh? Do you want to explain that to the rest of us?

Even in 1993 when I was in Zimbabwe(and not thinking much about "trouble") I always had in mind that I would be in the real "bush" - and that trouble makers didn't wander too far from railroads or roads - and anyway I had a rifle and so did my PH. "Never bring a knife to a gun fight" was always a very familiar expression to me {My mother had Texas ancestors} - so I felt perfectly comfortable between my PH and myself. I do feel for guys that would want to bring a wife and perhaps children along to Africa. It's one thing to face potential danger as a single man -quite another if you have responsibilities to others.

Well, Vulcan is Mr. Spock's home planet. I had to Google "Kolob". Unless 500 grains can enlighten us further, it is a planet whose existence is believed by the LDS church (closest to the throne of God). Personally I think it is "earth" but the LDS guys know better!
Peter.

quote:

Originally posted by GeoffM24:
Sometimes I wonder what planet some of you guys live on!

Hell yeah it is the unrest! Who gives a crap if you have been hearing about it for 3 years or 10 years, the political unrest is very real.

So you got lucky and your hunt was fine, so what? You played Russian roulette and lived, that doesn't mean it ins't dangerous. That doesn't make you brave or a genius, just lucky. Maybe it is only a 10% chance of loosing your hunt, or your trophies, or loosing your guns, or being in country during a civil war, that is a very real risk and problem.

When I'm dropping 10K-20K plus to go hunting I don't want to worry about that BS, and I don't want to worry for a year later that my trophies never make it out of the country. I'm going to enjoy myself and I don't want my enjoyment to envolve the worry about people shooting themselves with AK47s.

Some are willing to take that risk for a discounted price. It is a gamble some are willing to take and as things get worse and they ARE getting worse the price discount needs to increase to offset the gamble.

If you are happy to take the discount in exchange for taking the risk more power to you. The fact remains that no matter how many times you post that Zim is just fine in an effort to convince yourself it is safe doesn't make it true.

Geoff,

I'm certainly not trying to pick a fight with you, and more to the point I have little to no experience to base my opinion on, but If we are to be that concerned about safety in Africa, perhaps here in the states we should avoid bad parts of town, eating in restaurants, (not to mention something like eating sea food while there,) auto mobile travel, travel of any kind, tall trees around the house, poisonous snake country any kind of dangerous critter country, and using a bathtub.

See what I mean? When friends travel to Dillingham to moose hunt I specifically avoid making any kind of promises to the friends or their spouses about "keeping them safe,". If we are lucky and kill a moose, we slather ourselves in blood and gore and then commence to camp with 600 #'s of bone in meat right smack dab in the middle of outstanding brown bear country! Safe my ass!It is a risk to moose hunt here, no different than the risky commute to work.

I'm not suggesting you are, but I get the biggest kick out of the folks that won't go to "___________" because it is too "dangerous" but will gladly eat a McDonald's
hamburger,smoke,sky dive, swim in the Pacific ocean, and not wear a seat belt! Any one of us here can go find a motorcycle rider that will blather ad nauseum about how helmet laws impinge on their freedom and will tell you in the next sentence about the un reasonable dangers of hunting in Zimbabwe.

The world is a dangerous place. I'm not advocating taking un necessary risks, but I would say that life is full of risks and IMO everyone has or should have different thresholds.

I'm getting hungry. I think I'll have a piece of this cold pizza that has sat out on the kitchen counter for the last 24 hours.

It's a combination of both, cancellions are up and bookings are down about as much as I have seen them in my time...

Lets face it, the hunting business is not immune from other business problems, to say otherwise is just foolish or a bald face lie.

Hello,
Well, the whole world is keeping and eye on Zimbabwe and wondering when the same actions as held in other nations in Africa will take place when a change of government is taking place. Total anarchy!!
Some have mentioned that the U.S. Government will place sanctions, restrictions, regulations, etc. on travel/visiting to Zimbabwe and if and when that is done, the subject of hunting there is not even on their radar scope on why to do such things. The bottom line is any any and all moneies spent "in country..." does indeed end up supporting the current corrupt government. There is no denying that. That and that alone would be the reason for punitive measures regarding travel to the place. We do not ban travel to Cuba to deny smokers their cigars for Christ's sake, but do not encourage/permit our money to go toward to economy of Cuba!!
Some have hinted/implied that being in the "bush" hunting would insulate them from any civil upheavals and if it did occur they and their PH would deal with it. With what?? A dangerous game rifle?? How many rounds you carrying, 40-60?? Worst possible choice to do combat and the idea is insanity to begin with when no escape route or support is available. Embassy is not going to cover your rear for stupidity.
Seldom mentioned by anyone is the almost total lack of any medical treatment in Zimbabwe at this time. Going to fly out to South AFrica are you?? Well, that should not take more than a few days to arrange and probably somewhere near $10,000.00 to arrange. Heck of a deal if you have the cash and oh yes, the time while you are ill and suffering in some shithole in the bush. (been there and done that!!)
As it is often reported the obtaining of trophies from the hunt are delayed not only months, but years and seemingly no easy solution to that problem. Let's see now, why did you travel to Zimbabwe, to hunt and bring back a trophy??
The word absurd was used in a previous posting and might offer that upon looking up Zimbabwe you could just about cover the whole nation with the word absurd. Quite interchangeable I would say. Africa is a huge continent and would surely believe there are better places to visit than Zimbabwe at this time, but God Speed if you do travel there.

dsiteman,

Be very careful! could be lightning storms tonight around your place! Don't go outside, don't touch anything metal, don't wear metal glasses tonight!

This is Friday night! beware the drunk drivers if you're out on the road!

Killer bees continue their march North! you have been advised!

Holy Cow! water spilled on the floor, could be slippery!

Most importantly, your neighbors child might be playing with their parents gun while they're away from the house and the gun might accidentally discharge in your direction. Please lay flat on the floor face down and don't move for the forseeable future........For safeties sake.

Hello Scott King,
You covered most of the things that could "hurt" you, but the one you forgot was being in Zimbabwe during a political, economic, social upheaval. Now the worst thing about all of that is that you went there under your own design and purpose and fully believing that everything will be just fine because of what??
Pesky natives won't bother me in the "bush," my PH will tell me when everything is fine and dandy, I have special protection from the evils of the world because I am a hunter and seek adventure, and probably the best reason is that I just want to go and damn the warnings and obvious pitfalls. By all, by any means, go there and enjoy yourself. With any luck at all you might even be able to get back home and someday end up with a trophy to prove your trip was a good one and let's trust that it is. In closing, spending your money and aiding the corrupt government should not be a concern at all.

quote:

Originally posted by dsiteman:
Hello Scott King,
You covered most of the things that could "hurt" you, but the one you forgot was being in Zimbabwe during a political, economic, social upheaval. Now the worst thing about all of that is that you went there under your own design and purpose and fully believing that everything will be just fine because of what??
Pesky natives won't bother me in the "bush," my PH will tell me when everything is fine and dandy, I have special protection from the evils of the world because I am a hunter and seek adventure, and probably the best reason is that I just want to go and damn the warnings and obvious pitfalls. By all, by any means, go there and enjoy yourself. With any luck at all you might even be able to get back home and someday end up with a trophy to prove your trip was a good one and let's trust that it is. In closing, spending your money and aiding the corrupt government should not be a concern at all.

I purposefully left out the hazardous travel Zimbabwe routine because I thought you had that well covered. "Political, social and economic upheaval"? Sounds like the United States or at least Togiak Alaska.

"Spending your money and aiding a corrupt government"? If one were a Republican than one could say the same thing about visiting New York state and financing Hillary's supporters. If one were a Democrat than one could argue that spending money in any portion of the United States supports "W".

Danger abounds d.

the best reason i know to cancel a Zim hunt is that there is an excellent chance you will never see your trophies once you leave camp- take note of the thread on this forum concerning trophy shipments from Zim.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Kolob, huh? Do you want to explain that to the rest of us?

In parts of the LDS religion Kolob was mentioned in the book of Abraham (IIRC) as the planet that was nearest to the throne of God.

(I'm not LDS but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express before)

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
(I'm not LDS but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express before)

How do I get on the Zim "cancelled hunts" mailing list?

IMHO, based on just being awake and conducting an informal canvass of more or less reliable sources:

Bookings are down in Zim because of the political situation.

Bookings are down in Tanz because of the prices.

Bookings are down in Zim, Tanz and everywhere else because of the economy.

Lots of bargain-priced, last-minute safaris should become available as the year progresses.

Too bad I have to plan ahead and can never jump on such deals given the short notice!

I've been in enough war zones in Africa to last me five lifetimes. When things go bad, they go bad very quickly. Given the current Zim situation, I'd wait it out.

jetdrvr

Sorry i didnt reply to your earlier post in aviation about fuel prices. well the going rate is now between R11.20 and R 13.10 per liter of juice @ 60 liters and hour in a cherokee that is madness.

The Zim situation with cancelled hunts? Well we have been in and out of Zim flying clients all over the show from Gonarezhou to Harare to Gokwe North. We have done 12 flights in the last week and a half and at present I have 3 aircraft out in Zim with clients, Only one problem, we had a very sticky official at Bulawayo who was getting funny with firearm licenses. Other than that it is business as normal and my latest Russian client said he felt safe hunting in the Sengwe hunting corridor above KNP, and that he did not even feel remotely unsafe while there.

On a lighter note, the above client just came out of Zim having collected a 82 pound ele, the local village thought that war had broken out when the guns started blazing. he also took a 42" buff a 30 something Njala and a 15ft croc, all in 7 days, he loved it.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Kolob, huh? Do you want to explain that to the rest of us?

In parts of the LDS religion Kolob was mentioned in the book of Abraham (IIRC) as the planet that was nearest to the throne of God.

(I'm not LDS but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express before)

I actually first heard of Kolob in a movie:

http://www.cc.utah.edu/~th3597/kolob1.htm

The movie sucked.

"Plan 10 from Outer Space"?!!!! Not real high on my list of "must sees". Having said that, I did just see "Letters from Iwo Jima". Good movie.
Don't mean to hijack the thread. I am watching the situation as best I can, and, wife permitting, I might be up for an "end of season special", but, depends on what's going on over there.
Peter

Ok, well that certainly explains it, although I thought for a moment that. . . .well, you liked to spend time in Southern Utah.

quote:

Originally posted by Use Enough Gun:
Ok, well that certainly explains it, although I thought for a moment that. . . .well, you liked to spend time in Southern Utah.

Well, no, I haven't actually been to a polygamist compound. And hope to keep it that way.

quote:

The bargains in Zim are hard to pass,

Ha! What bargains? Mark, et al, are always posting "discounted" hunts. Discounted from what? Discounted from the price of two new cars?

A buffalo hunt that costs $15K? That is somehow a bargain? And a total price tag door-to-door of +US20K? Ouch.

And they expect tips on top of it!

It looks to me like there is no less demand in Zim, and probably more. How else could they be getting that kind of money for a "cow?"

"The Bod" has enough groupies to price most guys out of the valley.

Just where is the demand dropping? And where are the bargains?

quote:

spending your money and aiding the corrupt government

Who do you think aids conservation?
Zim is a geat place to visit. I promise you, if operators themselves had any doubt about their clients safety they will not take the risk. To most operators this is their life. The fact that top notch operators are still operating means everything is, at least, safe.
I have heard of gang and drug related conflict in New York, does this mean I should not risk my life to go there?

Hello Ticky,
Don't believe the issue at hand with a corrupt government is conservation. To say that the place is safe is simply not a fact. Only this morning the UN stated that the violence and potential violence is at an all time high and stressed, yes stressed, RURAL areas as being primary concern. Yes, the government is corrupt and to make the comparison of Zimbabwe and New York City is an old and silly comparison. Some typical propaganda by the locals to encourage visitations and that just does not work anymore. You have starvation rampant, economy terrible w/ inflation worst in the world, disease as HIV rampant, chaos with the so called government, medical facilities all but non existant and you are trying to promote visitors whether it be hunting or tourism?? Bookings for hunts are down?? What a shock that is and who would believe it since the situation in Zimbabwe is as it is. Get real, situation in Zimbabwe is on the verge of getting real bad, real fast and only sound suggestion for those fine folks over there, PH or otherwise, is get the hell out while you can. Not what you want to hear I am sure, but hunting and tourism suddenly become real unimportant in times of civil unrest and anarchy as being revealed in Zimbabwe as we speak. Recently read that poaching is on the rise and why in the world would it not be with no food on the shelves and facing starvation. Just shoot the poachers that will save the herds for the real hunters and we will call that conservation. I have hunted for some 55 years now and there is a time and place for all things, but not today in Zimbabwe. Perhaps tomorrow, but time will decide that, not those claiming that "all is well.."

quote:

Ha! What bargains?

AGREED! I have seen no evidence of truly discounted hunts. Given this, I assume that the situation over there is nowhere near desperate and they are getting the hunters they want.
Peter.

quote:

Don't believe the issue at hand with a corrupt government is conservation. To say that the place is safe is simply not a fact. Only this morning the UN stated that the violence and potential violence is at an all time high and stressed, yes stressed, RURAL areas as being primary concern. Yes, the government is corrupt and to make the comparison of Zimbabwe and New York City is an old and silly comparison. Some typical propaganda by the locals to encourage visitations and that just does not work anymore. You have starvation rampant, economy terrible w/ inflation worst in the world, disease as HIV rampant, chaos with the so called government, medical facilities all but non existant and you are trying to promote visitors whether it be hunting or tourism?? Bookings for hunts are down?? What a shock that is and who would believe it since the situation in Zimbabwe is as it is. Get real, situation in Zimbabwe is on the verge of getting real bad, real fast and only sound suggestion for those fine folks over there, PH or otherwise, is get the hell out while you can. Not what you want to hear I am sure, but hunting and tourism suddenly become real unimportant in times of civil unrest and anarchy as being revealed in Zimbabwe as we speak. Recently read that poaching is on the rise and why in the world would it not be with no food on the shelves and facing starvation. Just shoot the poachers that will save the herds for the real hunters and we will call that conservation. I have hunted for some 55 years now and there is a time and place for all things, but not today in Zimbabwe. Perhaps tomorrow, but time will decide that, not those claiming that "all is well.."

My point is that your money aids conservation, NOT a corrupt government. This is where there is a huge misconception, all hunters know and understand that hunting = monetary value on Wildlife Species = Conservation. It has relatively little to do with a government corrupt or not. A large portion of all conservation efforts in Zim have been funded directly from hunting and other tourism related activities, is this what you want to crush? Why should the environment & wildlife suffer?
Violence is at an all time high, since when? There was a much higher level of violence in the 70's and 80's during the civil war. Since then there has been very little violence. The little violence that is out there today is largely political and opposition supporters are being targeted, not tourists. Starvation, economy, inflation, HIV, public (not private) medical facilities will not effect your safari in any way. On what do you base your assumption that the situation in Zim is on the verge of getting "real bad" what do you mean by "real bad" anyway.
If you want to do something about the poaching threat then why don't you help by going on a safari in Zim and contributing something by the way of your spending towards anti-poaching. It does no good telling the whole world what a bad place Zimbabwe is, the animals and people on the ground are the ones that suffer from this.
Shooting poachers may be able to bring about a new industry - wouldn't that be the way to go! Imagine what our trophy rooms could turn into?