I agree with you Fairgame, both 2 and 3 legs shootingstick has a better swing, and also are faster on shorter range.

I'm glad I stumbled on this thread before I head off to Africa in two weeks for a pair of plains game hunts (I have zero interest in DG). One hunt will be a walk-and-stalk in Namibia and the other is in SA. Commenters reminded me that I need to get some second- and third-shot drills in before I go.

As far as yelling, "shoot, shoot", I had a little different experience with the PH who took me around in Namibia two years ago. My blue wildebeest and red hartebeest were one shot kills, but the kudu and oryx took three each. I was mentally prepared for followup shots but he had me wait since neither animal ran off.

I had a few trophies on the wall before I went to Namibia but I still consider myself inexperienced and VERY cautious (another story for another time). I would also rather go home empty-handed than end up "buying blood" by wounding an animal that can't be recovered. When I hunt with a guide (US) or PH (Africa), I make sure we have a short talk to get on the same page. One of my rules is, if I'm not comfortable with the shot, I don't shoot. The other is, I need to be reasonably close. I can reliably hit a 4" gong from a tripod (Vanguard T62U) at 100 yards so I've passed the dinner place test and it looks like I need to do a little practice emptying the magazine at the 6".

quote:

I make sure we have a short talk to get on the same page. One of my rules is, if I'm not comfortable with the shot, I don't shoot. The other is, I need to be reasonably close.

You will do well following those rules.

In response to AnotherAZWriter:
I can only speak from my own experience at SAAM. As far as hitting the gong with the first shot: definitely couldn't do it the first day, but the last day (day 4) the coaches had a friendly shooting contest where we went up to the top of a hill (SAAM has many of these) with multiple targets ranging from about 500 yds out to 1000 with many in between. By this time in the school we had all learned to use the grids on our scopes to compensate for distance (FWIW they teach you to either use the grids or to adjust your scope with the turrets-I chose to use the grid). We all got set up and the coach gave us the distances to each gong, and helped us estimate the wind (which is an educate guess at those distances). Then each shooter, in turn, would be told "shoot target number X". After firing we would be told "now shoot target number XX" and so on. We never had more than a minute or two to reposition, get comfortable, and take the shot. Most of us hit each gong the first time.
As far as combining the safari course with long range: I questioned that myself initially, but in my mind the safari courses give you close to real life experience, but nothing builds your confidence like long range shooting.
Just my $.02.

quote:

Originally posted by drj:
In response to AnotherAZWriter:
I can only speak from my own experience at SAAM. As far as hitting the gong with the first shot: definitely couldn't do it the first day, but the last day (day 4) the coaches had a friendly shooting contest where we went up to the top of a hill (SAAM has many of these) with multiple targets ranging from about 500 yds out to 1000 with many in between. By this time in the school we had all learned to use the grids on our scopes to compensate for distance (FWIW they teach you to either use the grids or to adjust your scope with the turrets-I chose to use the grid). We all got set up and the coach gave us the distances to each gong, and helped us estimate the wind (which is an educate guess at those distances). Then each shooter, in turn, would be told "shoot target number X". After firing we would be told "now shoot target number XX" and so on. We never had more than a minute or two to reposition, get comfortable, and take the shot. Most of us hit each gong the first time.
As far as combining the safari course with long range: I questioned that myself initially, but in my mind the safari courses give you close to real life experience, but nothing builds your confidence like long range shooting.
Just my $.02.

Thanks. When I practice long range, I find the first shot is the most educational. After your first shot, you have some idea of the prevailing wind condition and you certainly adjust after that.

Personally, I think a long range course should concentrate on how to read the wind, because that is 95% of LR shooting. It would be interesting to shoot on a course that had anemometers installed every 50 yards or so that you could estimate the wind, shoot, but then get an actual reading on the wind based on the acoustical signal of the bullet when it passes each anemometer. Bryan Litz created something like this as part of his work on the effects of wind. When an affordable, portable, laser doppler anemometer comes out, I am buying one if it is less than 10K, just to satisfy my curiosity.

A nine inch gong at 1000 yards is smaller than the 10 ring in F class, and at the 2016 Nationals, I think there were a total of ten cleaned targets (out of several hundred targets shot at), which includes sighters and wind flags, which are a huge advantage. So anyone that can hit a nine inch gong at 1000 yards prone (assume that is without an F class bipod and bag) needs to sign up to win medals, ribbons, and tin cups.

Every time I go to Vegas, I go to Pro Gun Club and shoot their Barrett 50 BMG at 1000 yards. It is a great confidence builder.

I thought it was suppose to be hunting and not target shooting???

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I thought it was suppose to be hunting and not target shooting???

The original topic was more about practise.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I thought it was suppose to be hunting and not target shooting???

The original topic was more about practise.

Exactly!

And one has to strive for is speed and accuracy.

One of the biggest complaints I seem to hear from the professional hunters is the fact that many clients tend to take ages to shoot.
And once they have done that they admire the shot instead of getting ready for a follow up.

It`s interesting hearing about how you guys prepare for a hunt, with shooting practise, when you practise du you shoot a lot of shots, or do you shoot a few shot and put all your effort in making this as good as possible, and annalyse.

You guys who works as Outfitters and Ph`s what do you look at when you get new clients for hunting.
I think you also try to figure out what kind of hunter the new client are.
Non of us clients are equal
Hopefully we can hear about your experience in this matter as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I thought it was suppose to be hunting and not target shooting???

The original topic was more about practise.

Exactly!

And one has to strive for is speed and accuracy.

One of the biggest complaints I seem to hear from the professional hunters is the fact that many clients tend to take ages to shoot.
And once they have done that they admire the shot instead of getting ready for a follow up.

To be fair many hunters are perplexed as to why the animal has not dropped in its tracks!

quote:

Originally posted by Rune Hallgeir:
It`s interesting hearing about how you guys prepare for a hunt, with shooting practise, when you practise du you shoot a lot of shots, or do you shoot a few shot and put all your effort in making this as good as possible, and annalyse.

You guys who works as Outfitters and Ph`s what do you look at when you get new clients for hunting.
I think you also try to figure out what kind of hunter the new client are.
Non of us clients are equal
Hopefully we can hear about your experience in this matter as well.

Rune,

It is my experience that all hunters are well prepared and practiced before their safari. It takes a day or so to get adjusted to the sticks. Note many hunters have shot far more African game than I have.

Communication is all important and if hunters do have a common fault it would be relying on or waiting on the PH to make all the shooting decisions.

Good to hear Fairgame.
I must speak for my self, and I practice as much as I can with shootingstick and without stick
when I use shooting stick I prefer using the 3 leg stick.
When I arrive at the safari I like to speak with the Ph, I wanna learn to know the Ph as well, I Must say that I never had any problems what so ever.
I think, and I also seen that the Ph likes if the hunter take a bit iniative to do the hunting.
I feel good when the PH trust me

quote:

Originally posted by Rune Hallgeir:
Good to hear Fairgame.
I must speak for my self, and I practice as much as I can with shootingstick and without stick
when I use shooting stick I prefer using the 3 leg stick.
When I arrive at the safari I like to speak with the Ph, I wanna learn to know the Ph as well, I Must say that I never had any problems what so ever.
I think, and I also seen that the Ph likes if the hunter take a bit iniative to do the hunting.
I feel good when the PH trust me

A the end of the day the hunter must fully enjoy his hunting experience and be prepared to take the rough with the smooth. There are many more aspects of a safari that need to be considered and it lies on the PHs shoulders to make sure that the hunt, camp and location fully meets the clients expectations.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
I thought it was suppose to be hunting and not target shooting???

The original topic was more about practise.

Exactly!

And one has to strive for is speed and accuracy.

One of the biggest complaints I seem to hear from the professional hunters is the fact that many clients tend to take ages to shoot.
And once they have done that they admire the shot instead of getting ready for a follow up.

I would say I have seen one tendency in hunting over the last 20 years that must be a bit frustrating to guides and PHs: the increasing need and complexity of shooting aids/bipods/rests, etc. No one seems to be able to hit a pie plate offhand from 50 yards or sitting with a sling at 200.

I shoot several thousand rounds a year on my personal range, from near zero to
1000. More offhand than anyone I know. If I have a heavy rifle hunt coming up, I'll get about 1000 rounds in with it from spring to the hunt date; but if I don't, I probably won't touch it at all.

What I'd like to see just once is the PH check his rifle when I check mine. Why should we have to accept on faith that the guy with 4 different kinds of donated ammo on his belt knows how to use
it? How about just a few so I can watch for flinches? You can put the ammo on my bill.

It doesnt seem too much to ask, for the guy paying the bills.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Rune Hallgeir:
THis morning I went for the shooting range, and practice attacing buff. starting at 60 meters and stoppet at 30 meters.
with my Ruger Safarimagnum in caliber 375 H&H Mag.
4 shot within 5 sec and without taking the rifle aot of the shoulder.
The shots were a litle bit to high, but I think he will bite the dust.

If he was that close why not brain him??

Yes Saeed, you could of course - but few have shot near as many buffalo as yourself. As a long-time guide I've learned, killing experience is few/far between!!

Things I have seen and heard:

PH telling me not to shoot again on a running animal. He thought I had missed. I hadn't, and it was probably an hour or two before I got a chance for that second shot I could have taken immediately.

PH checking his rifle after a particularly difficult trip up a mountain.

Shooting contest with open sights, including the PH, client, and trackers.

PH deciding a client can't shoot and telling the other PH about it, not in English, thinking I couldn't follow the conversation. I was the client. One scope mount had come loose, and the rifle was literally changing point of impact with every shot. Somehow I still hit a running Kudu multiple times.

Me, telling my kids or friends to shoot again on an animal that is down but still twitching. Fighting the impulse to shoot it myself. Even though it is clearly not getting up again. Pay the insurance, and keep shooting until it stops.

This is what I have tried to do to be ready for a hunt:

I have practiced with dry firing, shooting the rifle I will use, checking sight alignment, etc.

I also did a lot of shooting with a .22. Before I hunted tuskless, I bought a .22 for shooting open-sights only.

When possible, I like to hunt with the rifles I will be using, even if they are a bit heavier than needed here. Must not forget to hang on to the stock (or worse, crawl the stock) when shooting a .375 prone. That scar didn't last long.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I shoot several thousand rounds a year on my personal range, from near zero to
1000. More offhand than anyone I know. If I have a heavy rifle hunt coming up, I'll get about 1000 rounds in with it from spring to the hunt date; but if I don't, I probably won't touch it at all.

What I'd like to see just once is the PH check his rifle when I check mine. Why should we have to accept on faith that the guy with 4 different kinds of donated ammo on his belt knows how to use
it? How about just a few so I can watch for flinches? You can put the ammo on my bill.

It doesnt seem too much to ask, for the guy paying the bills.

At nearly $30 a piece I shoot one or two rounds prior to the season just to make sure my irons sights are set.

Please PM me and I will send you a bill for a 1000 rounds if it is not too much to ask.

Every year, I load ammo for our safari for the two identical rifles that we use.

I fired a maximum of 10 shots in both rifles, sometimes less, just to make sure the sight is correct, because I take them apart for cleaning after each hunt.

That is it.

Of course, we shoot quite a bit throughout the year, but all are paper punching developing loads.

Nothing to do with hunting.

It would be great fun if the PH`s and staff doing a shooting contest with the client, I think this also will loosend up some nerves as well.

As a client I must trust the PH and he have the shooting skills.

I also heard PH`s speaking Afrikaan about a client, and they think the client don`t understand what they are talking about.
when we comment in english what they were talking about, they stop talking about the client.

quote:

Originally posted by Rune Hallgeir:
It would be great fun if the PH`s and staff doing a shooting contest with the client, I think this also will loosend up some nerves as well.

As a client I must trust the PH and he have the shooting skills.

I also heard PH`s speaking Afrikaan about a client, and they think the client don`t understand what they are talking about.
when we comment in english what they were talking about, they stop talking about the client.

I am hunting with a father son team I have been hunting with for over 30 years, and we still cannot understand each other

Being half deaf helps of course!

Oh, and we do not shy about telling each other what we really think about them either.

In fact, we take every opportunity to make sure the culprit of what had gone wrong never forgets it

Blacktailer

You may need a refresher course ;-)
best regards
Leon

I have been in situations with a PH were I asked myself who was backing who...caused by erratic behavior...nerves perhaps..

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I shoot several thousand rounds a year on my personal range, from near zero to
1000. More offhand than anyone I know. If I have a heavy rifle hunt coming up, I'll get about 1000 rounds in with it from spring to the hunt date; but if I don't, I probably won't touch it at all.

What I'd like to see just once is the PH check his rifle when I check mine. Why should we have to accept on faith that the guy with 4 different kinds of donated ammo on his belt knows how to use
it? How about just a few so I can watch for flinches? You can put the ammo on my bill.

It doesnt seem too much to ask, for the guy paying the bills.

At nearly $30 a piece I shoot one or two rounds prior to the season just to make sure my irons sights are set.

Please PM me and I will send you a bill for a 1000 rounds if it is not too much to ask.

Ha! I told Fulvio to feel free to back me up on ele and he said, "Do you know what these .500 NE cartridges cost?" He dumped two in it while I unloaded my magazine.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
Things I have seen and heard:

Forgot one. A PH advised that one should not cycle the bolt with the rifle at your shoulder. In his experience, that caused more problems than a faster reload solved.

Note: I am not endorsing any of these things, just relaying them.

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:

quote:

Originally posted by Charles_Helm:
Things I have seen and heard:

Forgot one. A PH advised that one should not cycle the bolt with the rifle at your shoulder. In his experience, that caused more problems than a faster reload solved.

Note: I am not endorsing any of these things, just relaying them.

That is insane. It is much faster to cycle the bolt on your shoulder. Frankly, I am stunned how often I see guys taking the rifle off their shoulder to cycle the bolt on outdoor TV.

I would say I have seen one tendency in hunting over the last 20 years that must be a bit frustrating to guides and PHs: the increasing need and complexity of shooting aids/bipods/rests, etc. No one seems to be able to hit a pie plate offhand from 50 yards or sitting with a sling at 200.[/QUOTE]

I'll admit I can't do either. Well, not quite. I did manage to hit a six inch gong at 50 yards with a .22 yesterday and I have a week and a half to practice with a sling. But your point is well taken. I got reasonably proficient setting up two-legged shooting sticks. They're pretty quick whereas the tripod takes a lot of time and I realize I might have to pass on a shot as a result. I'm willing to hold fire and go home empty if the alternative is having to chase a wounded animal. Been there. Done that. It's no fun.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I shoot several thousand rounds a year on my personal range, from near zero to
1000. More offhand than anyone I know. If I have a heavy rifle hunt coming up, I'll get about 1000 rounds in with it from spring to the hunt date; but if I don't, I probably won't touch it at all.

What I'd like to see just once is the PH check his rifle when I check mine. Why should we have to accept on faith that the guy with 4 different kinds of donated ammo on his belt knows how to use
it? How about just a few so I can watch for flinches? You can put the ammo on my bill.

It doesnt seem too much to ask, for the guy paying the bills.

At nearly $30 a piece I shoot one or two rounds prior to the season just to make sure my irons sights are set.

Please PM me and I will send you a bill for a 1000 rounds if it is not too much to ask.

Will you be sending me a free safari?

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
I shoot several thousand rounds a year on my personal range, from near zero to
1000. More offhand than anyone I know. If I have a heavy rifle hunt coming up, I'll get about 1000 rounds in with it from spring to the hunt date; but if I don't, I probably won't touch it at all.

What I'd like to see just once is the PH check his rifle when I check mine. Why should we have to accept on faith that the guy with 4 different kinds of donated ammo on his belt knows how to use
it? How about just a few so I can watch for flinches? You can put the ammo on my bill.

It doesnt seem too much to ask, for the guy paying the bills.

At nearly $30 a piece I shoot one or two rounds prior to the season just to make sure my irons sights are set.

Please PM me and I will send you a bill for a 1000 rounds if it is not too much to ask.

Will you be sending me a free safari?

Wish I could.

Best

Andrew

quote:

At nearly $30 a piece I shoot one or two rounds prior to the season just to make sure my irons sights are set.

Well said that man!

What with their scarcity on our markets and costs/bureaucracy involved in importing them directly makes one want to be rid of such calibre rifles.

Some if not most DRs have a tendency to favour certain makes of ammo and for the user, would be wise to find the one that performs to expectations.

My rifle for example, a Greifelt 500 NE which was built shortly prior to WW2 does not like any ammo other than Kynoch (now obsolete) and WR (Wolfgang Romey) of which I have a reasonable stock.

All others which I have tried have failed in various ways: printing at inconsistent points of impact, not chambering due to casing being oversize (new unfired ammo), hand-loaded and reloaded are black-listed.

Kynamco is the second available option to WR but the casings, closer to the base, (where they tend to "stick") have to be carefully sanded to the desired diameter allowing for a smooth feed; attempts at re-sizing live ammo through force-feeding ended up with a broken ejector.

So yes, 2 rounds at the start of the season to reconfirm its point of impact at 25 meters is more than sufficient.

With all the ammo left behind by clients I thought that there would be no shortage of it.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
With all the ammo left behind by clients I thought that there would be no shortage of it.

Shootaway,

IF someone leaves .500 behind and IF it works well for your rifle then fine. I have yet to come across this.

Cheers

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
With all the ammo left behind by clients I thought that there would be no shortage of it.

George:

As previously stated, my rifle is rather particular with brands of ammo, possibly because at the time of its manufacture the main and probably most popular/reliable source of ammo for large calibre bores was being manufactured by Kynoch.

It goes without saying that regulation was also done with that same ammo which, as you might recall was cordite, so you can imagine where the regulation goes when using modern propellants (it is even stated as a warning on some ammo boxes).

I steer clear of using hand or reloaded ammo mainly because most are charged to maximum limits, will definitely shoot at a different point of impact to where the rifle is sighted and I also don't relish the idea of my rifle popping at the seams.

If and when a client shows up with a .500 and decides to leave me a few rounds, I will have acquired enough info on the same during the course of the hunt to know whether to use them or not as "finishing" shots and to dislodge the cobwebs from the barrels.

Other than that I would rather he lets the crew mess about on the targets and possibly salvage his brass.

I would say the most important aspect of pre safari practice is getting used to the rifle you intend using for the DG you intend taking.

First thing is to get used to the quick shouldering of that rifle with the sights lined up on your target. Next is to carefully make the first shot count being on the target. The next thing is a very quick follow up shot, and to keep shooting till the target animal is down, or out of sight.

In the case of a magazine rifle, working the bolt while the rifle is shouldered keeping your eyes on the target. With a double rifle after firing the second shot making a quick re-load also keeping your eyes on your target.

In all cases work on quick follow up shots till the animal is either down or out of sight.

Once this practice is done enough till it can be done without thinking, you are ready to take on the bite backs!
.......................................................................

Another AZ writer hit a home run in his post...Just because a fellow has PH written after his name means zilch..PHs are not necessarily the great white hunter of yesteryear as portrayed on the internet and movies and TV...Ive known many PH that could not shoot the big double they carried and had a real world flinch..When tested they said Im not good at targets but can handle any bush situation...Friends if he can't hit a target, he sure as hell can't hit a buffalo. Ive know many ph that were great shots at 50 yards under stress or otherwise, but many Africans have never shot an animal at 300 to 400 yards, the need never arises. Yes, I've know many PHs, and the majority of them shot very well indeed...In any sport there are levels of skill..

A hunter should learn to shoot well or not hunt DG IMO. and that should be a requirement and a obligation..Even the best shots have bad days, but a poor shot has only bad days. Poor shooting can be harmful to a $40,000 safari in a hurry both for the hunter and the PH..

IMO learning to shoot iron sights offhand at 50 and 100 yards, learning to snap shoot at moving targets at 50 yards is a good place to start your shooting education..Get that done to a reasonable degree and you are ready for whatever Africa has to offer. Then using a scope will be a walk in the park. Many folks will just learn to shoot a scope and live with it, and that's fine I suppose..

Most American hunters Ive delt with in the last 40 plus years shot pretty darn good, Some of those that didn't let me know to start with, and I passed that on to the guide, who allowed for that with hunting skill getting them right up on the game and being ready with a back up shot. A pH should have a bench set up and check the rifles zero on day one, and then he will know just how good a shot his client is. and the client could ask him to do the same wouldn't be out of line IMO. I do that as a booking agent I feel obligated to know how the PH shoots!

The main problem I've seen over the years is the hunter that shoots then just looks at the animal, please shoot and reload immediately and be ready for a second shot if needed. That should be muscle memory. Do it in practice, at the bench, everywhere and everytime you shoot, even dry firing.

So tru Atkinson.

As far as Im concerned a person must be his own honest judge and know his own capabilities, and stay true to that ideal...That is why I have always been able to kill an elk with a .25-35 carbine or a deer with a 22 L.R. I shot elk under a 100 yards and deer under 25 to 35 yards. To do otherwise is a disaster as a rule..