interesting thread
how much practice do the African PH's do out of season and in season

I once made a drawing of a deer , broadside , showing all the vital organs , heart, spine , etc .Brought it to the camp and was surprised to hear , 'oh, that's where it is ' , 'where's the heart ? etc. They had always been shooting at the deer rather than a specific part of the deer !
No excuse as now there are videos , tapes etc that will show vital areas of animals from different directions .

quote:

Originally posted by bambazonke:
interesting thread
how much practice do the African PH's do out of season and in season

Not much. I practice a bit at 25 yards with my .404 and .500 before the season just to make sure my iron sights are true.

I also getting a Mauser Oberndorf in Caliber 404 with ironsights.
at short range up to 80 meters I think the ironsight will do.
I`m also planning to make a mount for the Aimpoint Micro sights as well.

This will be my future DG/BG rifle, loaded with 400 grains and 350 grains bullets, it will do the job.
Then I have to practice with this rifle, first of all getting to know it and get used to the recoil.

This is my new Mauser Oberndorf in 404Jeffery:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:

quote:

Isn`t it elementary that when you shoot at a animal and the animal doesn`t go down, you fire again as soon as you manage.

You have to remember that the vast amount of hunters going to Africa have only shot deer sized game before and usually for meat so they typically shoot then gawk at the effect their shot had on the game to determine if another shot is warranted.

If you miss with your first shot then you can be pretty sure your going to miss with the second so what's the point?

Who said anyone missed their first shot???
The point is that when you are shooting small to medium sized game, quite often 1 shot is all it takes but this is not the case with larger sized game especially buff and ele. You have to train to keep shooting accurately and quickly. If you train by shooting a target and admiring your shot that is what you are likely to do when hunting. If OTOH you train to shoot follow up shots accurately and quickly you will have more success when hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:

quote:

Isn`t it elementary that when you shoot at a animal and the animal doesn`t go down, you fire again as soon as you manage.

You have to remember that the vast amount of hunters going to Africa have only shot deer sized game before and usually for meat so they typically shoot then gawk at the effect their shot had on the game to determine if another shot is warranted.

If you miss with your first shot then you can be pretty sure your going to miss with the second so what's the point?

Who said anyone missed their first shot???
The point is that when you are shooting small to medium sized game, quite often 1 shot is all it takes but this is not the case with larger sized game especially buff and ele. You have to train to keep shooting accurately and quickly. If you train by shooting a target and admiring your shot that is what you are likely to do when hunting. If OTOH you train to shoot follow up shots accurately and quickly you will have more success when hunting.

It is commence sense to shoot again on a animal that does not appear dead right there.That said you cannot fire the second shot before you fire the first one.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:

quote:

Isn`t it elementary that when you shoot at a animal and the animal doesn`t go down, you fire again as soon as you manage.

You have to remember that the vast amount of hunters going to Africa have only shot deer sized game before and usually for meat so they typically shoot then gawk at the effect their shot had on the game to determine if another shot is warranted.

If you miss with your first shot then you can be pretty sure your going to miss with the second so what's the point?

Who said anyone missed their first shot???
The point is that when you are shooting small to medium sized game, quite often 1 shot is all it takes but this is not the case with larger sized game especially buff and ele. You have to train to keep shooting accurately and quickly. If you train by shooting a target and admiring your shot that is what you are likely to do when hunting. If OTOH you train to shoot follow up shots accurately and quickly you will have more success when hunting.

Second that.

quote:

Originally posted by cal pappas:
I am fortunate to have a shooting range in my front yard and also a heated building I shoot from in the cold Alaska winters.
A month or more prior to a hunt I shoot 4-6 shots per day, every day, off hand, at 25 to 50 yards with the rifle I will use on the hunt.
I'm not a great shot but this way I get used to the recoil, weight of the gun, and the "feel" of the rifle.
Cal

I second this...I practice in a similar way before an elephant hunt....shoot offhand at 20-25 and 40-50 yards..

But having a moving target coming towards you from about 50 yards must be excellent..

Anyone that is in the US (or anyplace else) has access to a FANTASTIC shooting school-Tim Fallon's FTW Ranch. My good friend and custom rifle maker Lex Webernick of Rifles, Inc recommended that I spend the money with them prior to my ele hunt in 2015. I would have to say that after having him build my 416 previously and having Rich Tabor for my PH on that hunt that it was the best money I spent and worth every penny. Tim has gone to great pains to duplicate the African shooting experience and you will leave much more confident than when you arrived. When I went in early 2015 there were two Swedes in the class, so Tim caters to everyone. PM me if anyone wants more details.

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
That is a good grouping but the way the buff is quartering with the exception of one or two bullets you are not hitting the vitals.

For heart and lung your group needs to be a bit lower and to the left towards the point of the shoulder.

That's the biggest problem with buffalo, most do not understand the anatomy and where the vitals are!

Like Andrew says, most all of your shots are TOO high! And.....despite the position of the animal, the anatomy never changes. Frankly most would be fine if they were 8 inches lower.

The buffalo has a "pay-line", shoot above it and you get to pay without getting your trophy. In this case a couple of your shots likely would hit the spine, but not the heart/lungs for the most part.

I know that this grouping was placed a little bit to high.
And the heart is placed in the lower halv of the animal.
For my excuse my rifle was about 4 inches over the aimingpoint.

quote:

Originally posted by Rune Hallgeir:
I know that this grouping was placed a little bit to high.
And the heart is placed in the lower halv of the animal.
For my excuse my rifle was about 4 inches over the aimingpoint.

RH:

As both Andrew & Aaron have pointed out, the heart is much lower, in line with the "lit up" triangle just below the grouping.

At your quoted distance of 30 meters, a single shot to the lower left edge of the white blaze on the forehead would seal the deal.

There is a possibility that one of the higher shots within the group might strike the neck vertebra which would likely "floor" the buffalo but not kill it, thus requiring a killing shot.

All said and done, it would also be highly unlikely that you could get a second shot into the same target area no matter how fast you cycle the second round as the target will have moved position immediately after receiving the first.

This would mean a possible quartering front shoulder or broadside shot; if more than the one animal, the main target could end up being covered and the next possible shot could mean a quartering away or even a "Texas Heart".

Cycling too fast could even lead to a jam, especially with reloaded ammo. Better to be able to achieve a smooth and decisive cycle than trying to break the speed-loading record.

quote:

Originally posted by Rune Hallgeir:
I know that this grouping was placed a little bit to high.
And the heart is placed in the lower halv of the animal.
For my excuse my rifle was about 4 inches over the aimingpoint.

Lower third.

AR rocks because of these guys.

I wonder what you meaning in what you are typing DCS Member?

Do you think "These Guys" are stupid or what.

As far as I know discusions forum are made for people to discuss different things such as Shooting practice and shotplacements, etc etc. I don`t think you are any superman in this matter.
so please explain what you mean, or confirm what I`m typing here right now.

I will try to put the train on the tracks again:
I wonder, how good are the shooting skills for hunters that goes for a DG hunt.
What do you do for practice.

I ask because the PH take a huge responsebility when he say welcome to a forreign hunting guest.
He only get to know this guest by 2 or 3 shot at the target before starting hunting.

The Proffesional hunter doesn`t normaly know the hunter, and therefore not know the skills of the hunter.
He must as a profesional take all precausions.
I wonder:
Why must the PH shout at the hunter, reload, reload every time the hunter (client) fires a shot.
Isn`t it elementary that when you shoot at a animal and the animal doesn`t go down, you fire again as soon as you manage.

quote:

Originally posted by Rune Hallgeir:
I wonder what you meaning in what you are typing DCS Member?

Do you think "These Guys" are stupid or what.

As far as I know discusions forum are made for people to discuss different things such as Shooting practice and shotplacements, etc etc. I don`t think you are any superman in this matter.
so please explain what you mean, or confirm what I`m typing here right now.

I will try to put the train on the tracks again:
I wonder, how good are the shooting skills for hunters that goes for a DG hunt.
What do you do for practice.

I ask because the PH take a huge responsebility when he say welcome to a forreign hunting guest.
He only get to know this guest by 2 or 3 shot at the target before starting hunting.

The Proffesional hunter doesn`t normaly know the hunter, and therefore not know the skills of the hunter.
He must as a profesional take all precausions.
I wonder:
Why must the PH shout at the hunter, reload, reload every time the hunter (client) fires a shot.
Isn`t it elementary that when you shoot at a animal and the animal doesn`t go down, you fire again as soon as you manage.

Rune,

Simmer down please. My comment was that this is a great place to ask your question. I commended the the opinions of those that know more than we do. You asked them and I learned from them also. Maybe you don't understand, but I've learned from them. Chill out and put the "train back on the tracks."

Sorry Sir.
I misunderstand you..

I do know one thing for sure - when the trackers and PH find out you can shoot, and shoot well under pressure, what ever the shot served up is, the tempo of the hunt is improved dramatically. I've made several trips over there now, there is usually a bit of " well, let's see, he hit the paper squarely, let's see how he does on something with hair and moving about a bit."

Making a couple solid shots right off, really helps with the PH and staff's confidence in you. It's a bit of a rush when you make a moving head shot at 100 yards with a double gun, and the tracker jumps five in the air and screams something you don't understand. You ask the PH, what did he say?
PH grins and says " HELL YES, this guy can shoot!".

After hearing some of the tales about guys that cannot shoot, that makes a lot of sense to me.

The comment a few above about SAAM class are spot on. Yes the class is a bit pricey, but a LOT less pricey than a missed or wounded animal. I've taken literally dozens of my best customers to it over the years, a business entertainment expense, and it was worth every penny to both me and them. Some of these guys could not hit a paper plate from 100 yards from the bench on arrival, they are no capable of hitting 9" gongs from several hundred yards, off sticks or other non-bench positions. The class really helps you know and set your limits, and how to work within them.

quote:

Originally posted by Rune Hallgeir:
THis morning I went for the shooting range, and practice attacing buff. starting at 60 meters and stoppet at 30 meters.
with my Ruger Safarimagnum in caliber 375 H&H Mag.
4 shot within 5 sec and without taking the rifle aot of the shoulder.
The shots were a litle bit to high, but I think he will bite the dust.

If he was that close why not brain him??

+1 on what MikeE said. When I went to SAAM I considered myself an "average: rifle shot. There is no substitute for "trigger time". SAAM makes you shoot at least a couple hundred rounds through your rifle during the course. By the time I went home I could consistently hit a 9 inch gong from the prone position at 1000 yds. For Africa, as I said in a previous post, I have never seen a more realistic course of fire that would prepare you. You do a walking course shooting off of sticks or tree limbs at life size targets with the vitals outlined. Worth every penny.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Rune Hallgeir:
THis morning I went for the shooting range, and practice attacing buff. starting at 60 meters and stoppet at 30 meters.
with my Ruger Safarimagnum in caliber 375 H&H Mag.
4 shot within 5 sec and without taking the rifle aot of the shoulder.
The shots were a litle bit to high, but I think he will bite the dust.

If he was that close why not brain him??

I 100% agree. I hate that frontal shot. Too many problems with it.

We followed some buffalo for a while, then caught up with them in high grass.

I shot one standing off the shooting sticks through a clearing.

Then all started running towards us in the grass.

All I could see was the heads, and took the opportunity to drop two more with head shot shooting off hand, while they were running about and stopping to see what was going on.

Had quite a job getting all three to camp

Back to the photo of the target.
Why I didn`t shoot brainshot was because I was aiming to shoot several fast series just to make sure that my shooting from last year were sitting in my spine.
And they did,
The shots were hitting too high, thats for sure, I know, and I knew it when I was finishing empty my ammobox.
I`ll never hunted buffalo before, my first time next year, or maybe this year, if I get a good offer.
I don`t practice on live animal, therefore I shooting some holes in paperbuffs.
I mean if you can handle your rifle, you become a better shooter, normally a better hunter because you know that you can shoot.
I agree that to be most confidence with the animals you hunt try to spend so much time in the bush as possibly, but we forreign hunters don`t have this opportunity.
Me and the PH had ran into Buffalo when we hunted PG, we stopped and go carefully back the way we came in and try not to disturb and causes any troubles with attacking buffs.

I rember my first trip to South Africa for plainsgame, I noticed that the PH wanna see what we were made of, after a round at shooting range he got a little bit more trust in us, when I shot a Kudubull at 300 yards at a instinctic shot, the PH lower his Shoulder and let me get a longer string.
Africa is a fantastic continent with a variety of game that you never had seen before.
I got bitten by the Africa virus.
No I wanna go for the DG as buffalo, next time a hippo and so on.
I love shooting, reloading my ammo and testing new bullets.

I also noticed from you tube films that it seems like there is some lacks of shooting skills even at PG.
I consider a wounded Oryx as dangerous for the hunter, and when you get attacked from a Oryx or a Buffalo and you don`t manage to handle your gun, you are dead, the differens is that when you hunt for DG the PH carrying his rifle, when you hunt PG the PH normally don`t carry his rifle, then it al depends on you..

quote:

Originally posted by fairgame:
That is a good grouping but the way the buff is quartering with the exception of one or two bullets you are not hitting the vitals.

For heart and lung your group needs to be a bit lower and to the left towards the point of the shoulder.

.................................................................Correct!

Come on guys, what are yours experience?

Don't shoot 'em in the foot.

The fact that whats his name sells (sold?) so many copies of "Shot PLacement" goes to prove there are so many that have no clue where to shoot a buff or anything else.

Kinda spooky.

quote:

Originally posted by Rune Hallgeir:
Come on guys, what are yours experience?

As Will said, don't shoot them in the foot, and make your first shot count!

Will is not far wrong in what he said.

A very good friend of mine was mauled by a leopard shot in the foot.

Apparently they went to check a bait, and as luck would have it, they saw the leopard walking close by.

He was walking slowly broadside.

The PH told the client to shoot it, which he did.

A very easy shot turned into a nightmare.

They went to look for the leopard, which they expected to see lying dead nearby.

He wasn't, so the PH followed it, got jumped at from behind some rocks, his scalp was pulled over his eyes without managing to shoot the leopard.

The leopard ran off, and the PH drove back to camp to get his shotgun - I bet you are all getting a good idea of what sort of a client this one is!!

The PH returned, and continued his following of the leopard.

Apparently the leopard was in the same place!!

And jumped him again, but he managed to kill it.

This is not a second hand story.

I heard it from the man himself.

I have seen exceptionally good shots miss very easy shots at game animals.

The most important thing is being in shape because when the time comes to shoot after a long walk, it can be difficult to lift the rifle alone let alone shoot it.Then one needs to have plenty of shooting experience or range time.One needs to train himself to concentrate and recognize the correct sight picture and once you have that you must be able to hold and briefly stop the sight from moving long enough to pull the trigger.Like someone said-if you want to shoot in the bullseye you need to be able to hold bullseye.That said before you get to this level you need to be able to hit a target, any target with a scoped rifle at least and know where the rifle will shoot at all times from a solid rest day after day week after week.

Saeed,

I have a very good friend that is a world champion ( more than once in fact ) bench rest shooter. I hunt often with him, both in the States, and once in Africa. It is a running joke with us, that he is the best in the world, except when it has hair on the target, then he must miss at least once. He is a great guy, and luckily he takes the jokes well.

He also has recently been to SAAM school. He didn't miss much in Africa on our last trip there together.

That is an interesting story about the PH and the leopard, it says as much about the PH and his iron as it does about the client.

quote:

Originally posted by drj:
By the time I went home I could consistently hit a 9 inch gong from the prone position at 1000 yds.

First shot? Under what wind conditions? What caliber were you shooting? Missing the first shot and plunking in the next nine isn't the same as pounding all ten on that gong...

Reading the wind is a whole subject and discipline by itself. What about spin drift? Does he teach that? It requires a correction nearly the size of your gong at 1000 yards - and that is before we start looking at the wind, which even with a 210 Berger VLD at 3000 fps moves your bullet about 5 inches for every mile per hour.

Does he cover all of that? I assume he has a special long range shooting class; trying to cover African game shooting while trying to smack gongs smaller than 1 MOA at 1000 yards would be difficult.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by drj:
By the time I went home I could consistently hit a 9 inch gong from the prone position at 1000 yds.

First shot? Under what wind conditions? What caliber were you shooting? Missing the first shot and plunking in the next nine isn't the same as pounding all ten on that gong...

Reading the wind is a whole subject and discipline by itself. What about spin drift? Does he teach that? It requires a correction nearly the size of your gong at 1000 yards - and that is before we start looking at the wind, which even with a 210 Berger VLD at 3000 fps moves your bullet about 5 inches for every mile per hour.

Does he cover all of that? I assume he has a special long range shooting class; trying to cover African game shooting while trying to smack gongs smaller than 1 MOA at 1000 yards would be difficult.

You might be surprised, as I did, how easy it is to hit targets at 1000 yards with the right rifle.

I only shot at 1000 at an official range in England once.

I was invited there by a friend who I was buying a rifle from.

It was a custom built 308 Winchester.

I shot at 1000 target, and frankly, I was pleasantly surprised how well I did.

But, that is as far as one can get from actual African hunting.

Having a purpose built rifle for that purpose and shooting it at targets is very satisfying.

In hunting Africa one does not get the convenience of shooting off a good rest and taking his time.

In Africa, one has to be fast on the trigger, with accurate shot placement, in very adverse conditions.

quote:

Originally posted by bambazonke:
interesting thread
how much practice do the African PH's do out of season and in season

Some get a little bit of practice in during a hunt....this was Walters watch


I have to say I was terrified of fluffing a shot before going to Africa. I'd even made some shooting sticks out of two tomato stakes and practised with them at the range. As I was using them I thought "geeze these are wobbly" but I persevered and did a few sessions with them. Got to Africa and used PH Dylans sticks and they were much more stable, having three legs does help . Used them to pull off my longest ever shot on game at around 260 meters on a Wildebeest, I did hit him a bit high with the first shot however. In fact all my shots except the Impala were highish.

quote:

Originally posted by Bakes:

quote:

Originally posted by bambazonke:
interesting thread
how much practice do the African PH's do out of season and in season

Used them to pull off my longest ever shot on game at around 260 meters on a Wildebeest, I did hit him a bit high with the first shot however. In fact all my shots except the Impala were highish.

Not uncommon to shoot high with sticks as it is often forgotten to hold the fore-end down with their use

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by drj:
By the time I went home I could consistently hit a 9 inch gong from the prone position at 1000 yds.

First shot? Under what wind conditions? What caliber were you shooting? Missing the first shot and plunking in the next nine isn't the same as pounding all ten on that gong...

Reading the wind is a whole subject and discipline by itself. What about spin drift? Does he teach that? It requires a correction nearly the size of your gong at 1000 yards - and that is before we start looking at the wind, which even with a 210 Berger VLD at 3000 fps moves your bullet about 5 inches for every mile per hour.

Does he cover all of that? I assume he has a special long range shooting class; trying to cover African game shooting while trying to smack gongs smaller than 1 MOA at 1000 yards would be difficult.

You might be surprised, as I did, how easy it is to hit targets at 1000 yards with the right rifle.

I only shot at 1000 at an official range in England once.

I was invited there by a friend who I was buying a rifle from.

It was a custom built 308 Winchester.

I shot at 1000 target, and frankly, I was pleasantly surprised how well I did.

But, that is as far as one can get from actual African hunting.

Having a purpose built rifle for that purpose and shooting it at targets is very satisfying.

In hunting Africa one does not get the convenience of shooting off a good rest and taking his time.

In Africa, one has to be fast on the trigger, with accurate shot placement, in very adverse conditions.

Saeed:

I shoot at 1000 yards and beyond every week, sometimes twice per week. It is never easy when the wind blows, especially with a .308 Win.

I shot this morning with a .308; the wind was blowing 15-20 mph. The .308 Win is a great 500 yard gong rifle, but lacks a lot when it comes to the wind at 800 yards and beyond.

One shot per day over ten days is a lot different than 10 shots in ten minutes, with the first one being for all intents and purposes a sighter.

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:

quote:

Originally posted by drj:
By the time I went home I could consistently hit a 9 inch gong from the prone position at 1000 yds.

First shot? Under what wind conditions? What caliber were you shooting? Missing the first shot and plunking in the next nine isn't the same as pounding all ten on that gong...

Reading the wind is a whole subject and discipline by itself. What about spin drift? Does he teach that? It requires a correction nearly the size of your gong at 1000 yards - and that is before we start looking at the wind, which even with a 210 Berger VLD at 3000 fps moves your bullet about 5 inches for every mile per hour.

Does he cover all of that? I assume he has a special long range shooting class; trying to cover African game shooting while trying to smack gongs smaller than 1 MOA at 1000 yards would be difficult.

You might be surprised, as I did, how easy it is to hit targets at 1000 yards with the right rifle.

I only shot at 1000 at an official range in England once.

I was invited there by a friend who I was buying a rifle from.

It was a custom built 308 Winchester.

I shot at 1000 target, and frankly, I was pleasantly surprised how well I did.

But, that is as far as one can get from actual African hunting.

Having a purpose built rifle for that purpose and shooting it at targets is very satisfying.

In hunting Africa one does not get the convenience of shooting off a good rest and taking his time.

In Africa, one has to be fast on the trigger, with accurate shot placement, in very adverse conditions.

Saeed:

I shoot at 1000 yards and beyond every week, sometimes twice per week. It is never easy when the wind blows, especially with a .308 Win.

I shot this morning with a .308; the wind was blowing 15-20 mph. The .308 Win is a great 500 yard gong rifle, but lacks a lot when it comes to the wind at 800 yards and beyond.

One shot per day over ten days is a lot different than 10 shots in ten minutes, with the first one being for all intents and purposes a sighter.

I totally agree!

With strong wind, all bets are off.

The day we shot, it was a perfect English afternoon.

Funny enough, next to us were some shooters we were made to understand were from the military.

They shooting was absolutely terrible.

In fact, my friend told them to practice at shorter ranges before they attempt shooting at the longer range.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:

quote:

Originally posted by Bakes:

quote:

Originally posted by bambazonke:
interesting thread
how much practice do the African PH's do out of season and in season

Used them to pull off my longest ever shot on game at around 260 meters on a Wildebeest, I did hit him a bit high with the first shot however. In fact all my shots except the Impala were highish.

Not uncommon to shoot high with sticks as it is often forgotten to hold the fore-end down with their use

Probably right mate. I held the sticks more then the fore-end as I remember.

I hold both the rifle and sticks.

I am shorter than my PH and seems to have a knack of putting the sticks too high for me.

Walter complained that he thought he had to shoot something on the moon, as his rifle was pointing 40 degrees up

I also hold both the stick and the foreend of the rifle.
I`m long and I need to adjust the stick up.

I bought this type of shooting stick last year:

4 Stable sticks
type mountain stick

Made by: www.4stablestick.fr
Very stabile.

quote:

Originally posted by Rune Hallgeir:
I also hold both the stick and the foreend of the rifle.
I`m long and I need to adjust the stick up.

I bought this type of shooting stick last year:

4 Stable sticks
type mountain stick

Made by: www.4stablestick.fr
Very stabile.

These sticks are very stable and have made some for long distance shooting for Lechwe etc but they are not practical for general field use and have virtually no sideways movement.