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Alf, SCI wants to keep all those free hunts for the top dogs coming. They smell which way the wind is blowing, and want to position themselves so that the free ride continues.   George  | |||
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This type of statement needs back up information. Can you provide any documentation? Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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I read their (SCI) release the same way and was rather surprised to see it in written statement form. I don't think any real democracy can exist until all people have opportunities based on the best qualified to do the job. The issue of getting those qualifications is what should be addressed. I'll be watching this closely personally and so far I don't like what I'm reading. | |||
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There seems to be two seperate issues here. With regard to the black empowerment thing I personally believe the best person for the job should be the one to get it......but that obviously relies on (amongst other things)education, relevant social skills and such things as global knowledge etc.......and most black Africans haven't been fortunate enough to gain that kind of background.......so the first thing that needs to be done is to give the black children a much better education.....but who pays for it? The second issue is SCI......(IMO) How can any society/club/association that encourages/accepts bribes in the form of "donated" hunts from outfitters who have already paid the going rate for a booth be considered ethical. The very term "donation" is an insult to every outfitter that attends. Donation suggests it's purely voluntary......I don't know a single outfitter that would choose to donate a hunt unless it was the only way to get a decent location at the show. Of course, if SCI truly wanted to do something about black empowerment they could always voluntarily donate money and facilities to ensure an increasing number of black children could be able to gain the education they need to get more of the better jobs........ After all they must make a bundle from the conventions.....esp with all those "donated" hunts. | |||
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This is another step in the wrong direction for SCI. The club should remain out of political fights, except for hunting rights and wildlife conservation (and gun issues b/c they are related). | |||
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I read that in the news, I was very surprised and upset that SCI would take a stand like that!  I will be watching this also!! "America's Meat - - - SPAM" As always, Good Hunting!!! Widowmaker416 | |||
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SCI is on the decline or should i say --on the way out | |||
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Steve, In SCI lingo: Donated hunts = Blackmailed hunts! | |||
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"Black"mailed fits, in this case. | |||
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Please, let's not lose sight of the fact that there's a right way, and a wrong way, to do this. THE BEST HUNTERS I have ever seen and hunted with in Africa--or anywhere else--have been black Africans. As Steve has said, the right way to do this will take time and commitment--and as Saeed and others have said, it will take more of both than SCI has shown itself capable of sustaining. It's all too easy to be PC and pay only lip service; it's much harder to work towards accepting black African safari companies and PHs--even when quality is the standard, as it should and must be. Equality of opportunity must be the goal. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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April 1, 2005 - SCI Supports Black Empowerment Efforts In Africa SCI President John Monson announced SCI’s support for black empowerment efforts in the hunting industry. He was speaking to the Annual General Meeting of the Namibian Professional Hunters Association in Windhoek in February, 2005. President Monson delivered the following policy statement that had been approved by the SCI Executive Committee at its meeting in Reno in January 2005: “SCI supports the efforts of governments, outfitter associations and others to empower indigenous people to participate in the hunting industry on a professional basis. SCI believes that this will help to achieve the goals of a stable hunting industry with a mission of providing a high level of customer satisfaction. SCI also believes that empowerment efforts will enhance the role that hunting and hunters play in the conservation of wildlife and the protection of the tradition of hunting. To this end, SCI will work with governments, outfitter associations and others to find ways to encourage, support, and expand the efforts already underway in several countries in Africa to provide sound professional training for indigenous people as guides and outfitters.†The efforts of NAPHA, which has been undertaking such programs for several years in partnership with the Namibian government were given recognition, as were the efforts of individual outfitters like Volker Grellman who have worked to train indigenous black people and bring them into the hunting industry as full-fledged partners and operators. President Monson presented NAPHA with a check for US$2,500 as a contribution to NAPHA’s Hunters for Education Program. He said that this was, “evidence of SCI’s commitment to programs designed to assist indigenous people.†Monson also noted the hard work that Gudrum Hager had put into the NAPHA program. | |||
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US$2,500 ! how very kind of SCI to donate such an amount I'm sure such a huge sum will buy a lot of education for the indiginous children of Namibia........I wonder how much profit actually went into SCI coffers as a result of the "donated" hunt auctions at last years convention!.........Oh, I forgot - they don't seem to publish that do they........perhaps someone out there can let us know?  | |||
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 How generous... | |||
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Guests The subject broadly speaking is what the NEW AGE PC brigade of the world is pushing, you guys in the USA will know all about racial empowerment or what ever label we want to put on it ... My personal feeling is I still rightly or wrongly believe in FREEDOM of choice I personally dont like any system that wants to coerce bribe or put outside pressure on a person or company to specifically employ say gays, women, blacks, whites, jews, dwarfs, catholics, agnostics, moslems, or whatever ... Can any person of sane mind explain to mw WHY I should not be allowed to employ any person I choose without some SOB or group trying to prevent me !!! In esssence the move by SCI is what the NEW AGE people call bending with the times, which of cource to some degree becomes just another form of discrimation .... The happiest work force are those that come together by choice not by impostion or other means. I would be much happier if SCI with all their power money and resources were to maybe get back to their main goal of protecting hunters rights and conservation of wildlife, of cource they can lobby goverments BUT only in the interests of hunteras & those associated with hunting, when they start to lobby issues that could adversly effect the well being private safari companies & their business it might be overstepping the mark !! SCI should focus more on the rights of hunters travelling the world with their rifles, and assisting outfitters and companies instead of the direction they seem to be going !! FINAALY I am totally against the idea of HUNT DONATONS as conducted by SCI as there are toooooo many ties attached to the situation and it has become a farce IMHO. If a hunt donation is made without any preferred status or other expectation that is different but I believe the way it operates is causing a lot of unrest in the industry Peter | |||
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This is just the tip of the preverbial iceburg. There are many that have become disinchanted with the political correct route that S.C.I. has been taking for three decades. The modern day mind set of diversity and afirmative action that has been crammed down all of our throats is being spat out by those of us who have had enough. Right is right and wrong is wrong there are no gray areas. Gray is the favorite color of these feel good people. $2,500.00 is a joke, we sell more tickets to or annual smoker at our club that is 550 members strong. S.C.I.'s original vision was correct somewhere along the way they where blinded by the gray mist of greed and special privliages. Charlie | |||
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Give me a friggin' break. If you don't like what SCI is doing, don't renew your membership. If you generally feel they are representing you as a sportsman keep your membership. I feel the NRA is a little far right for my liking, but I generally like what they do so I will not give up my membership. | |||
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Alf How can anone living in the US or Canada be surprised by this? It has been going on for 40 years. Where have you guys been? I would bet that MAMBA would have been happier recieving the cost of Monson's trip as a donation rather than the $2500. | |||
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Bryan W, I didn't like what SCI was doing - so I did exactly as you suggested and didn't renew my SCI membership....nor do we attend the conventions due to my distaste of the donation requirement......we have a lot or repeat bookings and recommendations so we can afford not to attend the shows.......many outfitters are not that fortunate and are therefore forced to make the "donations".........but that doesn't make the situation fair does it? | |||
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I just don't understand... It is a fact, as a politically viable entity, hunting is in decline, and that including new hunters in our ranks is a necessity. It is also true that as an industry, we have been reaching out to include more women and children in the shooting sports, and in doing so, have slowed the decline of our numbers. And though I realize that as a Caucasian, I AM a minority, the natural extension of this philosophy of inclusion is to make hunting more accessible to others. Clearly, SCI is not advocating the promotion of black operators to the exclusion of whites, and anyone who says otherwise is just wrong. "Black empowerment" is simply providing education and an opportunity in the hunting industry to someone who would otherwise never have been given a chance. By opening the hunting industry to anyone who is qualified to participate, competition is increased and service/quality goes up, prices (should) go down, and most importantly, more people are "for" us than were before. This is not a racial issue, but a business issue. By giving those in the majority in Africa a reasonable OPPORTUNITY to have an equity position in our sport, we help insure that hunting will remain viable well into the future. This concept is why CAMPFIRE worked so well in Zimbabwe, and why "land reform" has not. *************************Conservationist. Reformed Attorney. Producer of Outdoor Media. www.stevescott.tv | |||
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I read the report of Volker Groellman's (?sp) report on the training program in the NAPHA magazine and it sounds like a program worth supporting. Everyone is free to choose their own PH and outfitter. It's noteworthy that this is a program established by a well known and experienced PH who wants to involve black Africans more deeply in the hunting industry. My 2 cents. Bob | |||
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Well said biggametv | |||
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Interesting. Supporting calfers but not a racial issue? It seems to me my goof man that you have missed the boat. In fact the whole thing smacks of jumping ship to stay in step with the cash flow. Who's the calfer now, eh? | |||
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Chuckwagon: What the hell is a "calfer"? Somebody who plays with young cows? If you are going to try and quote something from the "Lethal Weapon" series, at least get it right. The derogatory term you are looking for is "Kaffir". Not that I agree with you. Regards, RCG | |||
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Calfer?! That is the mother of all cow jokes. Please don't insult the cattle. A gentleman never insults any cow, anyhow, unintentionally. biggametv: You have better said what I tried to say previously. Every free man in a free society is entitled to the opportunity, through education and an unprejudiced and equally protected work environment, to the same opportunities to compete and succeed as his brothers. (And before you feminists chime in, that applies to women and sisters too!) All men (yes, and women, too) may not be created equal, but are entitled to equality of opportunity! Not that I agree with you or anyone else either . . . Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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 Calfer, IE, A dumb government cow that mucks everything up by tying their "good intentions" to racism or other PC agendas. Self promoting for profit organizations don't follow far behind that and SCI is a great example IMO. Now a Kaffir as you so elequently pointed out is just slang for the N word. PS, You just might be a dumb Kaffir if you think that offering preferred employment opportunities to one race, religon, creed etc. represents equality in any way. If your bright enough to not be lead by the propoganda, then its not hard to see just what is really going on. Of course I'm sure they just want to help those poor children with their donation and realy do not support reverse discrimination !  | |||
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Is that something like in the apartheid days what the white Afrikaaner Police used to do in the cells with electric light sockets, or am I mistaken  | |||
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biggametv Your ideal about "black empowerment" is not what has been going on in RSA for the last number of years. If you were white and in a Government job you could kiss your promotion prospects good bye..hell in a lot of cases you could kiss your job good bye as they "empowered" some unqualified black guy into your position..Its that bigger picture that Alf and others are so against... Regards, Pete | |||
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As I understand it, BEE (black economic empowerment) is a different horse from affirmative action. Just the acronym should tell you that as it excludes women other than black and other minorities such as Indians. Government forcing a company to have a certain % of blacks that have high positions or even forcing a company to have black part-ownership to compete for contracts can surely not be a good thing. The less a government concerns itself with private business, the better.Let them stick to educating, a thing they do half-assed anyway. | |||
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Pete: I understand what you are saying wrt quotas and preferential hiring. However, this is not the case in the safari industry. The percentage of black PH's throughout Africa is less than 1%. These guys are not even in the game, much less a threat to displace experienced operators. This is the type of situation where economic theory applies perfectly. If a PH, whatever the color, provides bad services, the market for PH services will move to a different, superior provider, whatever the color. Safari companies that lose profit due to poor employee performance will hire the best person for the job. Business owners are mostly color blind; they only see green. The market will sort it out. Black equity in the safari industry, both actual and intellectual, is the best guarantee of the long-term viability of hunting in Africa. Chuck: Buddy, your posts speak volumes. *************************Conservationist. Reformed Attorney. Producer of Outdoor Media. www.stevescott.tv | |||
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Any initiative that includes/encourages and promotes black people to participate meaningfully and ethically in the hunting industry can only be good. Then it will not be seen as an elitist exclusively white minority industry. The government will not be so ready to legislate on restrictions/limitations if it is seen to harm their own constituents. If we could get some really savvy black operators and PH's into the mix it would really stir up the local industry. We'd see prices dropping, and a better level of service. The locals will get access to tribal areas hitherto unaccessable (maybe even the National Parks). The government will open them up for them, to expand the industry. And they have their own methods of dealing with poachers. And if they are sharp enough the white operators should be able to take advantage of any breaks that come their way. Competition is good. I think BEE initiatives, in ANY industry, transparently structured and correctly implemented are the only way we are going to move forward. I'm not saying drive the whites out, just level the playing field to let the previously disadvantaged in. A safari operator who gets in a black partner with the right connections is going to be in the pound seats. Bring 'em on, I say, and let the weakest go to the wall. Give 'em an overdraft, give 'em responsibility, give 'em the skills they need, let THEM lie sleepless at night worrying about cashflow. Then we are talking TRUE equality. I'm a South African and proud of it. If we do this thing properly and they (the BEE's) still can't hack it then fine then we can all shed our guilt hang-ups and sleep with a clear conscience knowing we did our best. I've spoken to managers of PH schools who will not accept a black person ("Sorry, the course is fully booked"). That is plainly a stupid and short sighted policy and PHASA should take them to task on it if it comes to their attention. SCI are doing the right thing, you should be supporting them. Pete If Chuck Norris dives into a swimming pool, he does not get wet. The swimming pool gets Chuck Norris. | |||
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Yeah yeah, Just because I'm a SCI member doesn't mean I worship the SCI gods. Some of their politics just plain stink.  | |||
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Terry thank for posting the press release. I think I am the only current Board member actively posting on AR, and I usually try to correct the misinformation posted here by the usual suspects whenever SCI is mentioned. This policy did not come before the full Board of Directors, but I expect it would have been voted on favorably at the Reno Board meeting in January. I live in California, USA, and am very sensitive to "affirmative action" (giving advantages to minorites with public money because they are minorities). I don't detect any of that here. I volunteer with SCI because the organization works on an international level to promote hunting and to defend hunters. I don't agree with everything that is done, but I support most of it. If you think SCI is bad, just who do you think is good? I also believe the license to complain is bought with the labor of participating in the solution. So what are you doing to defend hunting? jim dodd if you're too busy to hunt,you're too busy. | |||
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So this statement that was published in the SCI paper was false ? I'm all for equality but if SCI is going to support an affirmative action clone then they have their last dollar from me. "So what are you doing to defend hunting ?" Well for starters I donate to SCI. Please defend hunting with my donations and not someones unilateral wet dream for racial equality. | |||
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Pete, well said  Chuckwaggon, I think you are not reading what is written. Jim, as a member of SCI, I want to thank you for your efforts. Keep up the good work.Jim "Bwana Umfundi" NRA | |||
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Jim, In that case perhaps you could please tell us how much money SCI made out of hunt "donations" at this last convention......and how it was/will be spent? | |||
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Pete Millan Holy Smoke Peter, do you really believe what you are saying !!! I must respectively disagre with you, that what you concur with is the same old PC brigade trying to feather their nests and make some sort of apology for the past sins of OTHERS and trying to get a free trip to heaven and lay the blame of the past at my doorstep. I am too old to take that NEW IMAGE medicine Sh.t Pete, how long have you lived in Africa ( take it you were born there ) as I am not the optimist like you are, I believe that approach is doomed to failure as surely you can see a political connotation to the proposal !! OR I am the only (blind man) on the forum who was born and raised in Africa .... Peter | |||
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First, a $2500 donation. What a joke. I'm guessing this guy had his first class airfare paid for, hotels etc. Who footed the bill for the trip? Did he do an "aside" trip while in Namibia on SCI business? If he paid for the trip etc all out of his own pocket then good for him. If he hunted in Namibia while there and SCI paid the travel costs, then the word "junket" springs to mind. *** "Empowering" black PHs and outfitters. Firstly the word is inappropriate nomenclature and is sourced from revolution and left-wing politics (thereby my 'joke' about it before. If anyone wants to be taken seriously don't talk like a left wing academic or a comrade). Secondly. "Give". "Give". "Give", is what I read in some of the comments above. What about "work hard", "earn", "achieve"? The "GIVE" mentality is just another hand-out culture and when the hand-outs cease so does the "success" of the programme. Thirdly. "Empowering" black PHs and outfitters will probably have the folowing result in many of the cases. Some crony of a politico will get the "hand-outs". Why give it on merit or to a stranger? This is Africa after all. Rank brings priviledge. Then when Mr Mpofu Junior has his ticket he will get hired by some outfitter wanting political favours. Later when he has probably a "lot" of experience, say a couple (!), Daddy Mpofu or Uncle Bob, will muscle in on a choice concession pressuring it away from the existing competent outfitter. Mpofu Junior will now re-negotiate with the existing outfitter or more likely some crook or shady one (the likes of OOA?) who will most likely loot the game resources for a quick buck. Young Mpofu will get some whores and live the high life in town while whitey does the work and goes for a quick profit. Sounds like BS, maybe even racist BS? Well maybe, but it has all happened before. Some black guys are undoubtably good PHs and good at the job. Some are complete crap and I have heard about them too. They keep their jobs through political connections. Witness Zimbabwe right now. The only way the South African crooks are operating there is to have "official" partners and Zim PH's officially doing the PHing. How many of these partner outfitters and PHs are black PHs and outfitters? Probably close to all. Similarly for a lot of private game lodges on private land. Blackie boss gets 80% while whitey manager does all the work. The white outfitters and PHs need to protect their patch and other than ingrained racism this is one reason for preventing or restricting increased participation. Maybe Johnny Blackfellow from the bush with good tracking skills will be OK and a good PH but not the connected local Chief's son, that is for sure. Inevitably South Africa and Namibia will have to go the Zimbabwe (and the Tanzania, Mozambique, Zambia, Congo, Uganda etc etc etc) route. Its seemingly African tradition it seems to completely ffff-up your country before trying to rebuild it to half of what it was before. In the end their black political masters will force more and more on them anyway and we the client market loose out with disruption and lower standards. The good operators will charge more. JMO. | |||
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Well said, and sadly true. Unfortunalty, the truth sometimes hurts... | |||
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[quote]Bring 'em on, I say, and let the weakest go to the wall. Give 'em an overdraft, give 'em responsibility, give 'em the skills they need, let THEM lie sleepless at night worrying about cashflow. Then we are talking TRUE equality. I'm a South African and proud of it. If we do this thing properly and they (the BEE's) still can't hack it then fine then we can all shed our guilt hang-ups and sleep with a clear conscience knowing we did our best. I've spoken to managers of PH schools who will not accept a black person ("Sorry, the course is fully booked"). That is plainly a stupid and short sighted policy and PHASA should take them to task on it if it comes to their attention. SCI are doing the right thing, you should be supporting them. Pete _________________ Pete, I'd have to ask you: How many paying clients do you reckon will get screwed on Safari until your described "shakeout" and "elimination of the weakest" and bad ones is complete? Do you see any disconnect here? I see a potentially big one here for paying clients. Our money might be better spent elsewhere until all is well and everyone is up to snuff and well experienced, you reckon? Further, what reputable Agents/Outfitters would blindly book their clients into the new unknown just to support this? Your last sentence - Bully for you, it's your country and do as you wish,,, or have to as SCI would welcome your monetary support. Dungbeetle | |||
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