quote:

Originally posted by HunterJim:

quote:

Originally posted by T.Carr:
April 1, 2005 - SCI Supports Black Empowerment Efforts In Africa

SCI President John Monson announced SCI’s support for black empowerment efforts in the hunting industry. He was speaking to the Annual General Meeting of the Namibian Professional Hunters Association in Windhoek in February, 2005.

President Monson delivered the following policy statement that had been approved by the SCI Executive Committee at its meeting in Reno in January 2005: “SCI supports the efforts of governments, outfitter associations and others to empower indigenous people to participate in the hunting industry on a professional basis. SCI believes that this will help to achieve the goals of a stable hunting industry with a mission of providing a high level of customer satisfaction. SCI also believes that empowerment efforts will enhance the role that hunting and hunters play in the conservation of wildlife and the protection of the tradition of hunting. To this end, SCI will work with governments, outfitter associations and others to find ways to encourage, support, and expand the efforts already underway in several countries in Africa to provide sound professional training for indigenous people as guides and outfitters.â€

Terry thank for posting the press release.

I think I am the only current Board member actively posting on AR, and I usually try to correct the misinformation posted here by the usual suspects whenever SCI is mentioned.

This policy did not come before the full Board of Directors, but I expect it would have been voted on favorably at the Reno Board meeting in January.

I live in California, USA, and am very sensitive to "affirmative action" (giving advantages to minorites with public money because they are minorities). I don't detect any of that here.

I volunteer with SCI because the organization works on an international level to promote hunting and to defend hunters. I don't agree with everything that is done, but I support most of it. If you think SCI is bad, just who do you think is good?

I also believe the license to complain is bought with the labor of participating in the solution.

So what are you doing to defend hunting?

jim dodd

A very interesting strand. What I find most disconcerting is that the press release says the statement was approved by the executive committee While Jim Dodd says it did not come before the full board of directors.
Are the executive committee and and the board of directors seperate comittees and if so who answers to who ? This reminds me of a screwed up system where one hand doesn't know what the other is doing.
NOT GOOD.
I never realized before that SCI kept it such a hush hush secret about where their money gets spent and what they take in.
Why do you suppose they do things that way ?

quote:

Originally posted by NitroX:
First, a $2500 donation. What a joke. I'm guessing this guy had his first class airfare paid for, hotels etc. Who footed the bill for the trip? Did he do an "aside" trip while in Namibia on SCI business?

If he paid for the trip etc all out of his own pocket then good for him. If he hunted in Namibia while there and SCI paid the travel costs, then the word "junket" springs to mind.

I also agree that the $2500 is a joke if you are really serious with your support. However if you haven't bought into the program but feel you have to bring something for show than it is a good amount.

The SCI Travel Policy is for SCI to pick up the expenses to attend meetings. Airfare, Hotel, taxi etc. $100/day meal money plus meals for others in the course of business. Airfare is Coach unless upgraded by travelling party with his air miles or money. Wife, girlfriend, niece etc on the bill of the traveller. As President, Monson would get extra money for entertainment which is only fair and natural.

He probably attended the PHASA Meeting also and met with SCI staff and involved Leaders from both countries while there.

Any hunting while on an SCI trip is supposed to be paid for by the traveller. This is to be proven by reciepts or cancelled checks given to the Audit Committee. For the most part it works if the individual is honest and, despite the rumours here, most are. Occasionally someone takes advantage of an offer from an Outfitter of a free animal or two in exchange for 'Good Will' but I would be surprised to hear that said of Monson.

It is pretty hard to tell a hunter that he may not hunt while on a trip for SCI in Africa. They love to hunt as much as anybody here and how many of you would go there for 2-3 weeks and not want to take advantage of being there in between meetings or events.

In the past Outfitters have given, and SCI Presidents have taken, Free or almost Free Elephant, Rhino and other hunts while in Africa. In exchange the outfitters have recieved 'Special Treatment' by SCI at the Convention in the way of premium booth placement and awards. Some of the 'Winners' of the PH of the Year come to mind here. The trouble with this is that people know and in the long run the Outfitter usually loses.

Hopefully this is in the past but for some the temptation of a 'freebie because they can' is too much temptation. The EC will do the best to cover it up and most of the Past Presidents will help because many of them did it also. In recent History I would guess that Mike Rogers Sr., George Banks and John Monson would have been the least likely to have accepted Freebies from Outfitters.

There have been movements to ban hunting by SCI members while on trips for SCI. This has not faired well as you can imagine.

If you want to stop it than elect better leaders.

quote:

A very interesting strand. What I find most disconcerting is that the press release says the statement was approved by the executive committee While Jim Dodd says it did not come before the full board of directors.
Are the executive committee and and the board of directors seperate comittees and if so who answers to who ? This reminds me of a screwed up system where one hand doesn't know what the other is doing.
NOT GOOD.
I never realized before that SCI kept it such a hush hush secret about where their money gets spent and what they take in.
Why do you suppose they do things that way ?

Chuckwagon et al.

the BoD of SCI consists of all Chapter Presidents, all Regional Reps, 20 Directors at Large, 10 International Directors and the Evecutive Committee. This amounts to around 200 Members of the BoD. Because of the unwieldy size and the fact that only 3 BoD can be economicaly held each year an Executive Committee is elected by the BoD to carry on the day to day business.

The Executive Committee or EC consist of 13 members of the BoD and include the Pres., Pres. Elect, Sec., Trea, and members serving one and two year terms. They meet, by Conferance Call about once a month and in person about once every two months and of course at the BoD meetings. The EC runs SCI, in the name of the Club, and in fact.

It would be a waiste of time and impossible to accomplish anything in aq timely manner if the BoD had to vote on every issue. Minutes of the EC Meetings are sent to all BoD Members and I'm sure if you would look you would find the item in there.

SCI income and expenditures are an open book to any member that request it. As 501c-4 and a 501c-3 Corperations the books are all open by Federal Law. To complain about not knowing is laziness more than mystery.

As to Shikari's comments on the Convention I have gone over that many times before and don't care to spend additional time on it. Do a Search and you can find my comments and a discussion between Steve and I about this if you are interested.

SCI is not perfect, it does not satisfy every wish of every member but it tries. For all of you that don't want to join because of this or that I think you should rethink your position. Right now you're on a Free Ride and you should pay your way.

Thanx for clearing that up. The chain of command seems more clear now. I'm a very new member so I'm still learning. There are plenty of sporting organizations and I really do not think that if you choose not to participate with SCI that you are getting any sort of a "free ride". I'm a life member of the NRA and you can be sure I have a few opionions about their occasional brain infarction, which is exactly what I would think SCI has had trying to get involved with racial appropriation. I'll certainly be watching how they stand on this issue in the future because I most certainly do NOT support this agenda. Lets keep the focus on hunting.

Chuckwagon

Since this is an African Forum my comments were directed toward those who hunt in Africa. I also am a Life Member of the NRA and I know how little they do in regards to Saving Hunting Internationally.

This is not a knock on the NRA, which by definition, is a US based pro gun advocate, not an Internationally based pro hunting advocate.

SCI and the NRA are two hands of the same body. Each pulls it's share of the load even though the loads are different.

Well said Jim and Mickey. If you are not working to solve the problems you have no right to complain. I am all for equal opportunity with the key word being equal. I do not support reverse discrimination as a means of doing this. That said, I think SCI does need to do some house cleaning. I am a supporting member of SCI and will be on the board this next season. Do I worship at the the altar of SCI? No! I still think they are the best thing we have at this point in time. Am I politically correct? Hell NO! Do I think everything SCI does is right? Again the answer is no. Without going into a long tirade I will only ask those of you who are so quick to condemn the organization one thing. What are you doing to support hunting around the world? The only way to change any organization is from within. The attitude of I dont like it so I am going to take my ball and go home may have been fine at six but dosnt work as an adult. I dont care what organization you support or belong to as far as hunting goes. I only ask that you please support and put time and work in one of the organizations out there. I happen to think SCI has the best chance of making a difference at the moment but only time will tell if I am right or not.

Thanks Mickey for giving the details of the official travelling policies etc.

It is amazing too how so many business trips by business co-incide with other big events, eg the Aust Grand Prix. All the conventions and meetings that need to be held in Melbourne that week .

Wasn't there some comment when SCI Africa folded that having an SCI branch in Africa was restricting USA "junket" hunting trips to Africa for SCI business?

John, I had heard that as well but I got the impression that it was somewhat a "sour grapes" type of comment. However, I think the money for said junkets could better be spent elsewhere. I guess it is somewhat the price of politics, as I see it everywhere. I do think the African guys had some legitimate beefs about finances.

quote:

Wasn't there some comment when SCI Africa folded that having an SCI branch in Africa was restricting USA "junket" hunting trips to Africa for SCI business?

Nitro

I have known Gerhart for awhile and he was always at odds with SCI over policy in Africa. Mostly he was at odds with SCI 's insistance that, as a Chapter, he was not a co-equal. Nor was he in charge of the SCI Office.

SCI must have and office overseas in order to be a part of the NGOs that control World wildlife. CITES etc. They have always attended G&O meetings around the world. To show the Flag, so to speak. Whether or not this is a 'junket' depends on who is going and what they accomplish.

Mickey, Once again well said. Alhtough I know and like alot of those guys I didnt agree with one thing. They seemed to want to be a paralell organization rather than a part of the existing one.

Mike Smith, I agree with you excepting one point. If you can not agree with an organizations politics sometimes the best thing to do is not support them. Again I'm VERY new to SCI so I'm just concearned and watching at this point, however, I think the quickest way any organization "snaps too" is when members start saying, NO! I won't contribute to that. I don't see that as childish. Money is often the first thing that gets attention as it is the tool that gets the work done.
Where and how does the Dallas Safari club fit into all of this ?

quote:

Originally posted by ChuckWagon:
Mike Smith, I agree with you excepting one point. If you can not agree with an organizations politics sometimes the best thing to do is not support them. Again I'm VERY new to SCI so I'm just concearned and watching at this point, however, I think the quickest way any organization "snaps too" is when members start saying, NO! I won't contribute to that. I don't see that as childish. Money is often the first thing that gets attention as it is the tool that gets the work done.

I think we are actually in agreement. I just believe saying no should be done from inside the organization. Dallas Safari Club is another good organization. It actually split off from SCI many years ago over political differences. It does not have the political clout that SCI does at this point. Still a great organization to belong to. However it suffers from many of the same problems as SCI and mnay others for that matter. I just believe change has to come from within. Sorry to keep editing this but I am a little disorganized today. I am sitting here with a migraine and it makes it difficult to organize my thoughts into a cohesive statement that will make sense to everyone. You will never get total agreement with the politics from everyone in any organization. You do your best to put forward the things you think are right and to change those you do not agree with. Sometimes one does have to compromise or even at times totally back away from an issue even when you dont like it. It is the nature of any large organization.

Limpopo Province has with drawn all the leoprad permits.
If you do not have a black partner then no permit.
There is a court case pending agianst the department.

quote:

Originally posted by Huntertaxi:
Limpopo Province has with drawn all the leoprad permits.
If you do not have a black partner then no permit.
There is a court case pending agianst the department.

It looks like they are following the Zim model of reverse discrimination. As such I am against it.

This thread seems to have split into two issues:

1 The BEE issue
2. Are your elected SCI officers getting freeby hunts in pursuit of their SCI related activities?

I could not care less about what your SCI leaders are doing. If they are getting freebies well that's perhaps a perk of the job, so long as it does not disadvantage the rest of the members.

As regards the BEE issue, let me address some of the questions directed to me:

Pete: No I wasn't born here, I was born in Scotland, I came out here at the tender age of 9 when my folks immigrated to SA in 1965. But I have done everything normally required of a South African, did my National Service, I fought on the Border, did camps etc. I work on the Platinum mines. I deal with race based issues every day in my job. BEE and AA are very much in my face every day.

We must seperate and identify the principles of Affirmative Action and Black Empowerment from the git-go.

Affirmative action is designed to transfer skills and responsibility and economic empowerment to HDSA (Historically Disadvantaged South Africans) That spectrum includes ALL females irrespective of colour, Indians, Blacks and Coloureds who were excluded from certain job categories under the apartheid era either beause of their gender or race. It does this by assigning quotas to industry that must be met within a certain time. In other words the X-section of work force must fairly reflect the demographics of the area in which you work. The only way this can work without chucking whites out of work is to expand the industry to create more jobs. This is the contentious issue at the moment as it affects the individual. My boss is up for replacement by an HDSA. Which means that I won't/can't get promoted into his place. I will be working for a youngster fresh out of varsity. Here's the kicker: I HAVE TO TRAIN HIM! He is going to jump my 30 years of mining experience and collect a cool R750,000 annual package before he is 30. Don't tell me you think it stinks I KNOW it stinks but there it is. If you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined, If you don't like it there's the door etc etc. So you think about the mortgage, the kids in college, the car payments, realise it is happening all over the industry and then take a long hard swallow, say fuck it and get on with your job.

BEE is designed to allow the previously disadvantaged to partake in the running of business, and have a say in the economy. It is a form of AA but the difference is that it is is aimed at getting blacks into OWNERSHIP of businesses, or if not ownership then a meaningful stake in a business. Now the ball is in their court. They must put up capital or equity to partake in ownership. They now have to answer to their shareholders. In business the playing field is much more level and if a BEE business performs well it will attract market share but if not then they go into liquidation. There's not much government can do to bail out ailing BEE's. That's what the banks are for.

Both concepts are open to tokenism, which is anathema to me. It's at that point where it can go sour, when a business, in order to do business with us, has to quickly appoint one or two "token" black directors in order to show that it is a BEE. The people appointed are all wrong for the job, they screw up and now BEE is a "bad" thing. No no I say - you just implemented it incorrectly.

However, when it comes to the broad scheme of things, and in the safari business in particular, I'd rather have 100 good HDSA's inside the tent pissing out than 20 million pissing in.

DB, You must remember the onus is on you as the paying customer to properly research the credibility and reputation of the outfitter or safari business. If you don't like what you see, you just don't book with them. Word of a poorly performing outfitter going around will ruin him within one season.

You can ask an outfitter at his booth at the show:

Is your business a Black Empowerment program?
Do you have any Black PH's?
Do you have a program to train black PH's?
How do you involve the community in your business?

You can make your decision based on his answers, and what you are comfortable with.

Cheers

pete

Pete

Thanks for the in depth overview. What you say is essentially correct in a lot of respects and there is some merit in the basic theory

BUT

1) I personally will not be held responsible for ANY sins of the past generations or someone's forfathers back in history ... If we go along with that line of thinking we will never ever come right in this world, I dont buy that way of thinking .. The TRC has done its job so put it behind us and move on ..

2) AS long as black empowerment is done TOTALLY transperantly and WITHOUT any pay back to those whom dont buy into the scheme then I am for it, freedom of choice is the best option

In summary good luck to those willing to sell their souls and businesses for money, that is their choice, we rise and fall on our choices in life ...

Regards, Peter ( OLD SOB Rhodesian ) so now it is my fault that Mugabe is Robbing the country

quote:

Originally posted by Pete Millan:

You can ask an outfitter at his booth at the show:

Is your business a Black Empowerment program?
Do you have any Black PH's?
Do you have a program to train black PH's?
How do you involve the community in your business?

You can make your decision based on his answers, and what you are comfortable with.

Pete

I'd rather just ask him about his hunting, persona experience, quality of hunting, trophies, camps etc, then ask his references the same.

All this political crap has no part in hunting and the result will be more risk to the client, more ffffed up hunts with the newest Jambo artificially put into business. The end result in the short and medium term, more clients going to other countries.

In the West we have similar programmes and 99% of the time they are just programmes to allevite the "guilt" of the leftie milksops about 'disadvantaged' classes or groups whom usually are disadvantged for very good reasons. The programmes are 99% of the time a complete waste of taxpayers money.

Inevitably this BEP will just result in taking businesses and resources from existing successful people and 'transferring' them to non-successful ones.

Someone mentioned education. That sounds like a good start for a true BE programme. Get the fellows reading, writing and mathematical skills up to standard before giving them multi-million dollar businesses.

This thread is absolutely amzing to me. Now, I do not hunt in Africa, I know very little about hunting in Africa. I make no claim that I could even begin to discuss or comment on African politics.

What I do know, is that "empowering" anyone to do anything is a good thing. It is amazing how quickly people were to comment that it would be done at the expense of someone else. Whether that concern is justified I do not know. It is truly sad that it is still this way.

I live in North Idaho, anyone who ever watched the news in the 90's knows about the racist stigmatism that is associated with Idaho. My hunting partner is black and I (along with many others) dream of hunting Africa some day. When I bring it up to him, he laughs and says "No way...Kaffir ain't welcome there. You go." I give him shit and tell him "This is the 21st century! I think the world has moved forward since then...."

It appears I was wrong. And naive.

I hope someday when people are "empowered" others won't view it as a threat to their security.

JMO....

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:

My hunting partner is black and I (along with many others) dream of hunting Africa some day. When I bring it up to him, he laughs and says "No way...Kaffir ain't welcome there. You go." I give him shit and tell him "This is the 21st century! I think the world has moved forward since then...."

It appears I was wrong. And naive.

Your business partner will get as much if not more racism from the black population and workers as from whites.

But he should go on safari if he wishes. Lots of good outfitters to choose from.

Yes, I have heard that as well. Even here in the states when someone from Africa comes into his store they view him (and most African americans) as "less than" because in their eyes he is "descended from slaves." Its pretty stupid, but it is what it is. We are thinking of South America instead....

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:
Yes, I have heard that as well. Even here in the states when someone from Africa comes into his store they view him (and most African americans) as "less than" because in their eyes he is "descended from slaves." Its pretty stupid, but it is what it is. We are thinking of South America instead....

It's not that they are thinking of slaves. Slaves are a part of life in Africa. They are thinking that this fellow is part white. A halfbreed if you will. Coloureds are viewed by Black Africans as being below them and almost at the level of Indians in most parts of Africa.

IdahoVandal

Racism isn't a white thing. That's a false leftist guilt trip.

The most racist races on Earth are black Africans. And they are willing to act on their racism with extreme violence.

Proven in Africa about every four years with thousands even millions murdered somewhere in Africa always with racist motives.

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:

This thread is absolutely amzing to me. Now, I do not hunt in Africa, I know very little about hunting in Africa. I make no claim that I could even begin to discuss or comment on African politics.

What I do know, is that "empowering" anyone to do anything is a good thing. It is amazing how quickly people were to comment that it would be done at the expense of someone else. Whether that concern is justified I do not know. It is truly sad that it is still this way.

I live in North Idaho, anyone who ever watched the news in the 90's knows about the racist stigmatism that is associated with Idaho. My hunting partner is black and I (along with many others) dream of hunting Africa some day. When I bring it up to him, he laughs and says "No way...Kaffir ain't welcome there. You go." I give him shit and tell him "This is the 21st century! I think the world has moved forward since then...."

It appears I was wrong. And naive.

I hope someday when people are "empowered" others won't view it as a threat to their security.

JMO....

Idaho/vandal

You like anyone on this (free to air forum) can comment as much as you like on Africa hunting, even if you have not been there, that is the beauty that freedom of choice brings, so dont be amazed at the diversity of opinion ...

Empowering someone is a good thing BUT empowering someone purely because of their skin colour or for some past injustice by some OLD YESTERDAY government is not the way to go IMHO .. If any Africa Outfitter wants to employ a black guy or Chinese guy or even an American from Idaho, women or whatever that is just fine by me BUT rthe OUTFITTER alone must make that choice, not some other body or persons on a past guilt trip ..

Yes this is the 21st century, that is why you and your black huntuing parter are MORE than welcome to hunt in Africa, who said anything aboutyour BUDDY not being welcome in any way, we are talking about employing people based upon a racial theme that is sort of imposed, not whether a client from TIMBUCTU or any other place for that mater is welcome ...

You are not necessarily wrong or naieve, it is just that there are many diverse points of view, and the worst thing one can do IMHO is try to equate a situation that exists in one country and then drag and paste that analogy to another country, it just dont work that way in real life ... In Zimbabwe for instance you cant look direct into Mugabes eyes and criticise him and get away with it, in the USA you can ..

Yes I agree totally, I also hope one day we are (all empowered by freedom of choice) not by imposition based upon some racial doctrine or bias ...

Summary /

I still believe in the best man should get the job regardless of whom he or she is BUT the employer must still have the final say in whom he employs, after all he is the one paying the wages not some other perosn who has the bright ideas ..

Enough said by me, the cops are coing to lock me up for being toooooo outspoken and truthful

quote:

Originally posted by Mickey1:

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:
Yes, I have heard that as well. Even here in the states when someone from Africa comes into his store they view him (and most African americans) as "less than" because in their eyes he is "descended from slaves." Its pretty stupid, but it is what it is. We are thinking of South America instead....

It's not that they are thinking of slaves. Slaves are a part of life in Africa. They are thinking that this fellow is part white. A halfbreed if you will. Coloureds are viewed by Black Africans as being below them and almost at the level of Indians in most parts of Africa.

I have found throughout africa, especially in west africa where quite a lot of black Americans go to "find their roots", that it is not mainly a race thing when it comes to other blacks or "colored". It's a tribe thing. A black American is just another black guy from another tribe. Thus, they are in a way veiwed as "the enemy" since africa is extremely tribal. Much more than most would think. But with that said, black africans are generally also extremely racist too. Perhaps some the the most racist (and tribal) people found today. At least in my african experiances.

BB: I appreciate the response and I think what I am getting at is that all of the concerns voiced are valid, I completely agree that an employer should have the final say, I am not familiar at all with the policy, but I think if done properly it would be a benefit.

From my perspective as an American of European descent (recognizing that many perspectives exist on the issue) whites (in America at least,) whether they want to admit it or not, have gained because of their forefathers actions. Their is no way that they could not have gained. I am not saying that affirmative action as it has been practiced in the U.S. needs to continue, I think it has served its purpose and it is time to move on. But, in this case we are talking about a place I have only seen on TV and maps! That is part of the reason I like this forum it provides an international point of view.

I host a conservative talk show in a small market here in the States and I occasionally get called out for being too "liberal" or a "lefty" or any of the other colorful names you hear. Whats funny is that I am more conservative in a traditional sense than most realize,(I volunteer every election year for the GOP) I am just not afraid to call it like I see it and in many cases, especially when it comes to race relations and the environment, the left has better ideas. I tell my republican friends all of the time that if the left ever drops their anti-gun agenda,we are going to be in trouble because they would pull a whole lot of hunters over towards the left.....but now I am rambling. Thanks for the response, I'll probably sit back and listen (read) rather than speak (post)...I tend to learn more that way!

Take care...

IV

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:
But, in this case we are talking about a place I have only seen on TV and maps!

Mate

Go there and find it out for yourself. You and your partner will have a great time on safari as well.

Erik

I equate Tribalism as just another word for Racism. Ndebele and Mashona are two separate races as are Zulu and Xhosa and Hutu and Tutsi's.

quote:

Originally posted by IdahoVandal:

I'll probably sit back and listen (read) rather than speak (post)...I tend to learn more that way!

Take care...

IV

Sh.t NO, keep posting, I like diversity and debate and other opinions, no one is right or wrong we just have different points of view sometimes ...

At the end of the day it is the inner person that counts not their religious beliefs or skin colour

Peter

I say take your buddy and go hunting. Who really cares what some one else thinks. There are people who will look down at you in the world for any number of reasons. Some people don't like me because I'm bald ! I'm really not bald its just a mullet that went wrong !
I take my wife hunting 99% of the time. If you think you have troubles finding a decent outfitter try taking your wife. Many still are not receptive to lady hunters and five years ago it was damn near impossible to find a outfitter that was comfortable with female hunters.
Never let what someone else thinks about you dictate your actions.

quote:

I have found throughout africa, especially in west africa where quite a lot of black Americans go to "find their roots", that it is not mainly a race thing when it comes to other blacks or "colored". It's a tribe thing. A black American is just another black guy from another tribe. Thus, they are in a way veiwed as "the enemy" since africa is extremely tribal. Much more than most would think. But with that said, black africans are generally also extremely racist too. Perhaps some the the most racist (and tribal) people found today. At least in my african experiances.

Eric

I agree completely. I view the Tribal animosity as a Racist viewpoint. Perhaps a bit of a stretch but it is an easy analogy. Interesting how it works all over the World.

Flemish/Waloons, Greeks/Turks, Irish/English, Germans/Poles, Zulu/Anybody Else, Serbs/Bosnians, Bantus/Pygmy, Viet Names/Montagnard, Japanese/Korean, Spainsh/Mexican and on and on.

I see the same qualities here between the 4 Indian Tribes in my area, although so far only minor bloodshed.

quote:

You can ask an outfitter at his booth at the show:

Is your business a Black Empowerment program?
Do you have any Black PH's?
Do you have a program to train black PH's?
How do you involve the community in your business?

You can make your decision based on his answers, and what you are comfortable with.

What about female PH's? Should I check what tribe the Black PH's are from? Elderly PH's? HIV positive PH's? Dwarf PH’s?

I think I will just stick with getting the best value for my money and leave the social engineering to people that have the skills and the patience to do so.

quote:

Originally posted by dbltap:

quote:

You can ask an outfitter at his booth at the show:

Is your business a Black Empowerment program?
Do you have any Black PH's?
Do you have a program to train black PH's?
How do you involve the community in your business?

You can make your decision based on his answers, and what you are comfortable with.

What about female PH's? Should I check what tribe the Black PH's are from? Elderly PH's? HIV positive PH's? Dwarf PH’s?

I think I will just stick with getting the best value for my money and leave the social engineering to people that have the skills and the patience to do so.

Now there is a true statement if every I heard one.
Well said.

quote:

I think I will just stick with getting the best value for my money and leave the social engineering to people that have the skills and the patience to do so.

Now we are starting to (talk some common sense) on this thread ...

As I origionally stated, it is ENTIRELY up to the OUTFITTER whom he want to employ.

If we start to go down this winding bush track the NEXT SCENARIO will be the hunter will have to fill out a (SPECIAL NEW FORM) when he enters the country alongside his SAP 520 import permit, the new form will be called the PHCV and it will have to state the hunter want to hunt with a PH whom is .... a green eyed one legged metrosectial spanish speaking jew with no sense of humour and whom like heavy metal music and smokes big cubans aroung the campfire at night ..

Regards, Peter

quote:

a green eyed one legged metrosectial spanish speaking jew with no sense of humour and whom like heavy metal music and smokes big cubans aroung the campfire at night ..

You mean I can get my mother in law a job as a PH?

quote:

As I origionally stated, it is ENTIRELY up to the OUTFITTER whom he want to employ.

________

And, it is ENTIRELY up to the CLIENT as to which OUTFITTER/AGENT he or she will use, if any at all.
Dungbeetle

Alf/Pete/Peter,

To my mind the intellectual debate around BEE or AA, isn’t really the issue here.

My main concern is the fact that, in the RSA’s case, it’s the way that the government approaches these issues, and here I agree with Alf that it’s reverse apartheid.

Unfortunately in Africa, intellectual debate does not go hand in hand with governance (just look at Mbeki’s attempt at intellectualizing the HIV/AIDS debate......which is contrary to ALL proven medical opinion).

Here’s some food for thought!

Can you imagine working for a company that has a little more than 500
employees and has the following statistics:

29 have been accused of spousal abuse
7 have been arrested for fraud
19 have been accused of writing bad cheques
117 have directly or indirectly bankrupted at least 2 businesses
3 have done time for assault
71 cannot get a credit card due to bad credit
14 have been arrested on drug-related charges
8 have been arrested for shoplifting
21 are currently defendants in lawsuits
84 have been arrested for drunk driving in the last year

Can you guess which organization this is?

You got it!!!

It's the 535 members of the SOUTH AFRICAN PARLIAMENT - The same
group that cranks out hundreds of new laws each year designed to keep the
rest of us in line.

Sorry to have hijacked this thread!