Saw the new Jurassic World movie last night. The hero in the movie uses - almost exclusively, a 45-70 Marlin lever action guide gun against all manner of huge and terrifying creatures. He never manages to kill or turn one, but he's committed to punching away at them with it. I'm thinking though, if it's enough for a genetically engineered gigantic dinosaur with a cranky disposition, wouldn't it work against a naturally occurring docile cape buffalo?

Was the hunter properly licensed for this obvious videography of a Put and Take hunt on rare dinosaurs?

Saw it yesterday also ,there was the old Movie years ago ''In the valley of Gwangi '' with cowboys shooting at a Dinosaur with Winchesters ,he still seems to get some of his ideas from this old Movie

How was the movie? Worth watching or not

Movie's OK.
I had forgotten about ,"Valley of the Gwangi," thanks for the memory jog.
When I commented to my wife about the Marlin, her take was they used it because it's a "cowboy gun."

Were they free ranging or on a farm? if on a farm how many acres??

Also, was the farm high-fenced?

What about the genetic lines? Any SCI Gold animals in there?

This is the rifle- an 1895 SBL.
http://www.marlinfirearms.com/.../bigbore/1895SBL.asp

He was using jacketed soft points! For the love of God, everybody knows you must use hard cast bullets to get adequate penetration on dinosaurs.

According to Randy Garret the .45-70 penetrates deeper than the .458 Lott and .460 Weatherby Magnum.

quote:

Penetration by Randy Garret

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

Using that logic, I offer the following guide for calibers appropriate to the game:

.460 Weatherby - Ground Sloth

.458 Lott - Saber Toothed Tiger

.458 Winchester - Mastodon

.45-70 - Tyrannosaurus rex

.45 ACP - Indominus rex

The guy in the movie should have had his 1911.

.

Grendier, I can understand that with soft-points but solids that stay together should penetrate deeper the faster they go although too fast and they can take off at angles in hard mediums.

quote:

Originally posted by Marty:
Movie's OK.
I had forgotten about ,"Valley of the Gwangi," thanks for the memory jog.
When I commented to my wife about the Marlin, her take was they used it because it's a "cowboy gun."

And not nearly as sinister as a PH gun like the double used in one of the other Jurassic flicks.

quote:

Originally posted by 376 steyr:
Grendier, I can understand that with soft-points but solids that stay together should penetrate deeper the faster they go although too fast and they can take off at angles in hard mediums.

You have to read what Randy Garret wrote. He said he tested SOLIDS. That he tried them at different speeds and that the faster they went the less they penetrated. He based it on test results. I am only offering the quote and reference. I have not seen this phenomenon first hand and I extended the premis all the way down to the 45ACP with tongue in cheek. You should click the link and read the article. It is very interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by 376 steyr:
Grendier, I can understand that with soft-points but solids that stay together should penetrate deeper the faster they go although too fast and they can take off at angles in hard mediums.

You have to read what Randy Garret wrote. He said he tested SOLIDS. That he tried them at different speeds and that the faster they went the less they penetrated. He based it on test results. I am only offering the quote and reference. I have not seen this phenomenon first hand and I extended the premis all the way down to the 45ACP with tongue in cheek. You should click the link and read the article. It is very interesting.

Sounds very interesting.

We tested the original Barnes X bullets in several 375 caliber rifles.

We found that maximum penetration occurred at around 2800 fps.

Maximum velocity we got was 3140 fps, and penetration was not very good at this velocity.

Going back to the 45-70.

We had this discussion years ago, and someone suggested I should try it.

I told him I would very happy to, provided he pays for my safari.

I will be happy to use it for everything.

I will build a rifle for it myself, though.

Butch Searcy supplied the two real and the one dummy double rifles used by Steve Spielberg for the other Jurrasic Park flick

quote:

Originally posted by wesley timmerman:
Were they free ranging or on a farm? if on a farm how many acres??

...you might ask also if the dinos were drugged?.

I wonder if the rifle used in the movie was a real, JM stamped Marlin or a Remlin.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

Sounds very interesting.

We tested the original Barnes X bullets in several 375 caliber rifles.

We found that maximum penetration occurred at around 2800 fps.

Maximum velocity we got was 3140 fps, and penetration was not very good at this velocity.

Going back to the 45-70.

We had this discussion years ago, and someone suggested I should try it.

I told him I would very happy to, provided he pays for my safari.

I will be happy to use it for everything.

I will build a rifle for it myself, though.

Saeed, it would work. It has been proven that a 45-70 will shoot completely through a North American Bison thousands of times. Would it be the best choice for buffalo? Probably not. Different terrain, distances, and temperament of the two species. Why was the .458 Lott invented when we already had a .458 Winchester? Still, bullet placement is everything until your particular buffalo won't die and you owe him money.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by 376 steyr:
Grendier, I can understand that with soft-points but solids that stay together should penetrate deeper the faster they go although too fast and they can take off at angles in hard mediums.

You have to read what Randy Garret wrote. He said he tested SOLIDS. That he tried them at different speeds and that the faster they went the less they penetrated. He based it on test results. I am only offering the quote and reference. I have not seen this phenomenon first hand and I extended the premis all the way down to the 45ACP with tongue in cheek. You should click the link and read the article. It is very interesting.

Sounds very interesting.

We tested the original Barnes X bullets in several 375 caliber rifles.

We found that maximum penetration occurred at around 2800 fps.

Maximum velocity we got was 3140 fps, and penetration was not very good at this velocity.

Going back to the 45-70.

We had this discussion years ago, and someone suggested I should try it.

I told him I would very happy to, provided he pays for my safari.

I will be happy to use it for everything.

I will build a rifle for it myself, though.

The drag on any moving object is proportional to the square of its velocity, so the fact that you saw these results is not surprising.

quote:

The drag on any moving object is proportional to the square of its velocity

Thanks, Poindexter! :-)

Don't sell the 45-70 short. Loaded properly, it will out penetratate most of the rifles commonly used in Africa. I have killed a half dozen bison, and using lead bullets and black powder, have never failed to get complete pass through on a side to side shot. This February, on a bison hunt with three friends where we all shot 45-70 Sharps and black powder, the only bullet recovered was from a dead on frontal chest shot at 103 yards. That bullet was found in the pelvis of an 1800 pound bull and the penetration was tape measured at 72 1/2 inches by the meat processor. The animal went about ten feet after being hit.

I have been to Africa three times, twice with a 45-110 Sharps, and the last time with a 45-70. I shot traditional black powder loads with cast bullets , and I HAVE YET TO RECOVER A BULLET. I have shot through kudu both side to side and lengthwise, through and through zebra on two occasions, through and through the shoulders of both black and blue wildebeast, through both shoulders of a gemsbok and through a black wildebeast from ham to out the brisket.

With the 45-70, faster is not better. 480 grain FN and 510 grain RN bullets at 1250 fps get the job done, and if I am fortunate enough to go back, It will be with a 45-70 Sharps. The Sharps not only kills big animals with ease, It will kill them way out there if need be.

I don't want to start or engage in a pissing contest, but facts are facts, and I have most of the African animals on dvd. You can check out one of the zebra kills on youtube under "Black Powder Zebra kill.

I have used a marlin 45/70 with 350 grn hornady flatpoints on several kudu and eland, amongst other things. It killed as well as anything else I have used on them, up to and including .375 H&H.

Why are you men all ahoo about this? I have no doubt that you would need a CITES permit to bring anything back, and I am guessing that the taxidermy costs would be pretty high.

You could save if you opt for the European mount.

No, If you are going to go, go big. Go all out with a life size mount.

Sharpsguy
I believe you.
But my 505 gibbs gave full penetration through 8 ft of elephant; ie 3 bison. There is no comparison between black powder/lead bullets and modern high velocity express rifles.
Let it rest

quote:

Originally posted by emron:
Sharpsguy
I believe you.
But my 505 gibbs gave full penetration through 8 ft of elephant; ie 3 bison. There is no comparison between black powder/lead bullets and modern high velocity express rifles.
Let it rest

I am not sure it is as simple as that.

I think penetration IS a function of optimum velocity, together with material of the bullet.

Saw this movie this weekend with the kids, as my daughter volunteered me to go with them.

Apparently she said to her friends "my dad will enjoy this movie too, and he will tells all about the guns they use".

And that was true. As soon as I saw the 45-70, I told them shooting that dyno with it is like me just pinching them!

They were laughing so much!

Several years ago, a shooting writer, named Brian Pierce, took a 95 Marlin to Africa, using Cor-Bon ammo and killed at least 2 Cape Buff with it. Said it easily shot through the one, side to side, and killed another, or wounded it so hit had to be killed. I used one in 1972, when they first came out, but only bullets available were Win. 400gr silver tips, which were too soft. Shot a Gemsbok 3 times at 25 yds or so, to kill it, All lung shots. NONE went all the way through. Shot a Wildebeeste with it too, and the bullets stayed in the animal. Did make on pretty spectacular kill with it, on a Duiker at about 10 yds. Almost cut it in half. On a Sable, first hit a bit far back, end of ribs, from a 100 yds, and took another two in the chest from close up, to put it down. I think with todays better bullets would have done better. I had heated the loads up to 1900 fps. chronographed.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
You could save if you opt for the European mount.

I agree with bringing home a Eurpean mount. But what about the animals that you shoot?

Somehow, the double rifle seemed much more appropriate for dino hunting. If they really wanted to be accurate with it ..... where was the guy with the Barrett 82 in 50 BMG?
It's the only alternative to a big bore double in my book.