Any ideas or info on what market share the SOCOM has taken from the various AR 15 variants?
I see lots of SOCOMs on the market, but very few on the range.

Hello,
In my area a few Deputies have purchased privately, but don't know of any used for duty purposes?? The AR15 platform is almost universal, but that could be due to a generational/age issue since many of the people involved are not old enough to have much experience w/ the M1A/M14 firearm and "grew up" w/ the 15/16.
I had a forerunner to the SOCOM some years ago, 18" barrel, and it shot fine and had no problems, but the 15 is so much more user friendly regarding recoil, versatility, accuracy, economy, etc. The SOCOMS I have fired w/ all the rails, lasers, lights, etc. are on the heavy side for me, but current owners do like them and always offer the thought that the 308 is a more powerful round.
As for Springfield Armory versions, might want to investigate just how many "parts" are original GI mil-spec as opposed to imported cast parts. It's understandable that some other source for parts has to be used, for in reality the M14 was not in service on a regular basis that long compared to others and the surplus mil-spec parts are becoming scarce. Check out Fulton Armory's offerings for I do think they still use original parts, but they are pricey and understand delivery is on the long side.

They sell quickly,
& are generally loved by the purchasers.

as to market--
Not really the same market--
even in the 308 variants and other "larger" cartridges

As to the 223 ( and "smaller"cartridges)
The market is filled by AR's of numerous manufactures--

Most Law Enforcement applications are for CQB. Room to Room the ARs have it. I've never shot a SOCOM but I've handled one. Just not the same feel as the AR and a bit longer.
Most agencies aren't going to let the troops go to .308 for alot of reasons, real and imagined.

ammo weighs twice as much a round, magazines hold 1/3rd less rounds, recoil is more than double, and the accurate range is about the same. I've owned both, and you couldn't give me one of those stubby-barreled 308's. Full length M1A; that's a different story.

Save your money.

Rich

I have used the 223 and the 308 as work guns. Different needs for different deeds.

For most urban uses the 223 is the more suitable.

If I was a rural County Deputy, Hi Way Patrol etc., I would want the 308.

Also, as an individual if I lived in the country, especially in bear or pig country I would want the 308.

I have shot a couple of SOCOM's and their accuracy has not impressed me.

The 18" barreled M1 A Springfields I have shot were plenty accurate enough. I like them.

Nothing wrong with a full sized M1 A either, if you need/prefer the 308.

Valid points all. My work guns have been 223's. Currently have an M4. Just curious about how the SOCOM package impacted the marketplace.

I think it made a (very) brief splash with the "Oooh! It's new & tactical, gots to have me one of those..." crowd. I have seen several at the big gun shop in Boise the last two years, sold new and back within six months for sale. Like the 1895 Marlin in 45-70 when they came out. Guys had to have them, then found out the kicked.
One made the gun show every six months with two or three less rounds in the original box of ammo. They had this brutal plastic buttplate.
My cousin bought it, and took it straight to the gunsmith to have a pad put on it. He still shoots it.

The SOCOM? probably fade away.

Rich

Cut my teeth in the USMC with the M14 before moving on to the AR's. I'm looking at the Springfield M1A1 "scout" variant, with the wood stock and 18 or 20" barrel, standard configuration, less the wanna-be spec ops BS. It'd be a fun truck gun.

The black plastic 16" SOCOM looks like it'd be good for pounding fence posts.

I work with one of the guys that MFD mentioned, he's got the black plastic stock rifle. Recoil isn't bad with 40# of red dot scope, laser, bipod, and a can opener hanging off all the rails.

Actually, he's got a Comp M red dot on it and it shoots well enough to ding the 8" gong at 80 yards from field positions.

IMHO it wouldn't be a bad option for perimeter work or rural road patrol but the muzzle brake really negates any use for CQB work.

I'll stick with my AR15.

Shot them they are ok heavy in my opinon but then most 308 battle rifles are. Very lound with the short barrel.

I well keep my M4 works well. But then if I had a 308 SOCOM or any other 308 battle rifle I don't think any body would want to chase me around the woods.

Or any rifle for that matter.

I been asking around, none of the people I know who own/owned one are ex-military. But, they can all use the word tak-tick-ul more than three times in one, long, run on sentence about why they need all that garbage. I think I scare one every now and then when I tell them it's easier to just wait until after the ban and get one out of a UN cruiser with a compound bow. You get the shotgun and a handgun all with one, maybe two shots.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by TWL:
Cut my teeth in the USMC with the M14 before moving on to the AR's. I'm looking at the Springfield M1A1 "scout" variant, with the wood stock and 18 or 20" barrel, standard configuration, less the wanna-be spec ops BS. It'd be a fun truck gun.

The black plastic 16" SOCOM looks like it'd be good for pounding fence posts.

The Scout variant is the one to get.

Also you can get a "plastic" military stock pretty cheap, paint it, and use it when you do not want to ding up the wood stock.

I read quite a few posts from people that bought the SOCOM that weren't happy with the accuracy. I don't knopw why it would be that much different than the full size rifle but that's what I've read. I have no personal experience with the weapon.

I've been looking at the full size NM M1A's for a few years now. If the economy ever turns around I will probably buy one.

Terry

When comparing M1A, SOCOM and SCOUT to 7.62 AR platforms I think the ArmaLite and Knight are better in all respects.
I owned a M1A for many years and loved it.
When the AR10 came out I fell in love all over again.
The ability to change the scoped 20" upper to a red dot equipped 16" upper in seconds gives the AR platform the edge in my opinion.

The AP just released an article in which the GI's were complaining about the M4 not being reliable and claiming that such failures led to why some 8-9 of our people died in that recently annouced fire fight in Afg. in the last week or so. Army claims that the weapon is good to go for up to 3,000 rnds of sustained fire without requiring maintenance?? If you read the report, M4's became so hot could not reload and same happened to the M249MG. Naturally the Army has said they will do a full investigation, post battle review, and of course that shouldn't take more than a few months or so!! If the damn weapon is failing, and it was known, someone's ass should swing from the nearest tree. I have been told that Colt has exclusive rights/production to the issue M4 and it will be intersting to see what Mr.Colt has to say about the report.

Just my opinion here fellas, but I doubt the SOCOM will fade away. If you've ever used one, you'd know that there is nothing not to like(unless you're an AR desciple and had your mind made up already that you didn't like it before you used it) Note I said used one, not merely taking a couple pot-shots at the range with a borrowed gun. It's different so it takes a little getting used to but there is nothing an AR can do that a SOCOM 16 can't do better. Let's not use weight as a con because it's a moot point. A SOCOM 16 weighs less than 9 lbs. and has the best CQB sights I've ever used(for irons), an A2 weighs 8.2 lbs and an M4 weighs 6.5-7 lbs, stock. How much weight does an aluminum quadrail,EOTECH,BUIS,flashlight, etc....add to the M4? Now you have a gun that weighs as much as the M1A, with a third of the power and versatility. SOCOM can run bullets from 110gr. V-MAX to 175gr. SMK, and I can assure you, no soft target under 250 lbs, not man nor beast can survive a direct hit from a 110gr.SP@3,000fps inside 300 yards- the carnage is gruesome. Running the heavier projectiles will greatly increase your range and make cover for anyone on the wrong end obsolete. The gun is loud, but so is the AR-10 carbine and the 16" FAL PARA-Congo. The brake makes it fast, very fast, under 50 yards you can stay on center mass and dump 5 rounds before the first shell hits the ground, but the beauty of the rifle is you only need one, there's no doubles or triples and then hoping your target goes down and stays there like a 5.56. It hits like a freight train.

I like the 308. I have used it and the 223 in a few different kinds of rifles as work guns.

I have shot a couple of SOCOMs a fair amount.
The problem I have with them is 5" to 6" groups at 100 yards. That is unacceptable, for ME at least.

The M1 A's with the 18" barrels shoot much better. So it is not the concept of a short barreled 308, just the accuracy problem I have personally experienced with the SOCOM's.

As to the recient problems with the AR's in the Sand Box, I would direct you to look at page 239 of the book "U.S. RIFLE M14 from JOHN GARAND to the M14, by R. Blake Stevens.

"A four minute sustained fire trial was performed, using previously unfired examples
of each type of rifle." [an M14 and an AR15]

The object was to fire each rifle automatically until the rifle became unservicable or until 500 rounds had been fired....
The AR won the test...

"The stock on the M14 smoked heavily after firing 200 rounds, and flames appeared after about 220 rounds. After firing 300 rounds the foward section of the stock BURNED FREELY.
On the 437rd round the barrel ruptured causing the handguard to seperate from the rifle....

The firing was accomplished in FOUR minutes.

The AR suffered some damage as well... The barrel was bulged in 2 places, and bent down and to the left....

So as you can see sustained firing is HARD on a rifle.

That IS WHY REAL machine guns have changeable barrels, or back in the day were water cooled.

One advantage of the 15/16/M4 has is the ability of the individual soldier to carry more ammunition due to the lesser weight of the round itself. Is that an advantage, yes it is, but only if the weapon will actually use/fire all the rounds available when needed. The M4 Carbine is not a classic "battle rifle," but is considered a miitary assualt rifle whereas the M14 was/is a battle rifle and the SOCOM is an effort to make the M14 an assualt rifle or a hybrid.
If the military wants/needs an assualt rifle, it already exists and reportedly some 65 million of them have been mfg.-AK47 and it's variants. Many years ago a fellow by the name of Col. T. Whelen made a comment that "whenever a nation goes to war with a .22, something is terribly wrong..." I would venture a guess that the AK47 costs something less than half of the M4 to mfg., stamp the things out like pop corn, ship them by the boatload to wherever and get on with it. I sure can't see why there would have to be a lengthy testing period for the U.S. to go this route, for the best possible testing has been done millions of times-in combat!!

quote:

"The stock on the M14 smoked heavily after firing 200 rounds, and flames appeared after about 220 rounds. After firing 300 rounds the forward section of the stock BURNED FREELY. On the 437rd round the barrel ruptured causing the handguard to separate from the rifle....

All I can say is "Holy shit!"

I own both an AR15 and a SOCOM, I have fired somewhere between 750-1000 rounds through both, no jams with either and both drive tacks at 50 yards (factory iron sights on both). I am shooting a 55 grain fmj through the AR and a 150 grain boat tail through the SOCOM. If you want pro's and con's on both I will say this, the SOCOM is long (comparitevely) and heavy where the AR is short, light and easy to keep close to the body quick to shoulder and sight. The AR is light on the bullet end though, If I am shooting at something that is shooting back I would much rather hit them with the 150 grain 30 caliber bullet than the 55 grain 22 caliber bullet. Let me put it this way, I love to shoot hogs with these guns, 180lb hog gets hit with the AR in the shoulder, runs off squealing to be found later dead, 180lb hog gets hit in the shoulder with the SOCOM, drops where he stands on top of the shoat on the other side of him and both are lying dead in about 2 gallons of blood. I think they are both great guns with strengths and weaknesses, it just depends on your needs and application, that's why I have one of each.

I shot an 18" Springfield Armory M1 A today.
It is the fore runner of the Scout Squad in that it does not have the Scout scope mount.

I shot it at 100 yards with iron sights and a 6X scope with Federal 168 Match and Winchester 168 Ballistic Silvertips.

I shot a few rounds at the 200 yard gong as well.
I shot about 80 rounds.

The best 5 shot group was an inch and a half.

The worst group shot, rapid fire [ can't help it spazmodic trigger finger...]
was under 3 inches.

I was resting my hand on a sandbag, holding the fore end with no rear bag.

Not benchrest, but field technique.

COOL

I like the "AR 308's as well..

However I have tested some Knights and Armalites that had functioning problems.

However the last Knight I tested shot very good, near Sniper" quality.

I have NEVER shot a Springfield M1 A taht did not function 100%, and with the exception of the SOCOMs I shot all the M1 A's, even the Standard Grade's shot very good.
And I shot several of them out to 300 yards on paper, and a few at 600.

Armscorp makes some great M14's as well. [They have the "rights" to call them M 14's]

My favorite "308 AR" is the JP.
My favorite 308 Battle Rifle is the H&K 91.

For most Civilian personal protection, and for most urban LEO [Law Enforcement Officer] use the 223 AR is the better choice IMHO.

For a Civilian in the Country, or as a Road Gun, or for a County Deputy, Highway Patrol/State Police, I would prefer a 308.

ditch makes a good point about the 308.

"Around the house/in the city" you can use 110 or 125 gr bullets [if they work in your gun] and reduce the danger of overpenetration.

And by going to X bullets or Trophy Bonded Bearclaws [what Federal uses in their Tactical 308 LEO Sniper ammo], you can increase your penetration of "intermediate objects", like glass, car bodies, furniture, etc.

No doubt the 308 is a bigger hammer.

For "Regular Military Troops" the 223 is best...

For a Highly Trained DM [Designated Marksman], or Highly Trained Spec OP Troops, they can take advantage of the 308 and not get caught short by its limitations.

In the First Desert "War" the SEALS used a lot of M 14's, from Day One.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
ammo weighs twice as much a round, magazines hold 1/3rd less rounds, recoil is more than double, and the accurate range is about the same. I've owned both, and you couldn't give me one of those stubby-barreled 308's. Full length M1A; that's a different story.

Save your money.

Rich

Almost everything in this post is false information from a person who has never owned one of the weapons in question. Ammunition weighs less considering it takes approximately three 5.56 to do the work of one .308, hence you are getting more from a G.I. grade CMI 25 round mag than a 30 round AR mag. Accurate range from the SOCOM is about 300 yards- same as the AR but the SOCOM is three times more powerful. Why would anyone try and give you a SOCOM, you're not smart enough to take it.

quote:

Originally posted by ditch:

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
ammo weighs twice as much a round, magazines hold 1/3rd less rounds, recoil is more than double, and the accurate range is about the same. I've owned both, and you couldn't give me one of those stubby-barreled 308's. Full length M1A; that's a different story.

Save your money.

Rich

Almost everything in this post is false information from a person who has never owned one of the weapons in question. Ammunition weighs less considering it takes approximately three 5.56 to do the work of one .308, hence you are getting more from a G.I. grade CMI 25 round mag than a 30 round AR mag. Accurate range from the SOCOM is about 300 yards- same as the AR but the SOCOM is three times more powerful. Why would anyone try and give you a SOCOM, you're not smart enough to take it.

Hmmm, what I read sounded pretty much spot on to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
ammo weighs twice as much a round, magazines hold 1/3rd less rounds, recoil is more than double, and the accurate range is about the same.

I almost forgot, if either one of you had ever used one, you'd know recoil is about the same, if not less than an AR. TC, you may want to read a little closer. Just a suggestion.

quote:

Originally posted by ditch:
I almost forgot, if either one of you had ever used one, you'd know recoil is about the same, if not less than an AR. TC, you may want to read a little closer. Just a suggestion.

Here's the deal sparky, the recoil of a .308 winchester is about twice what a .223 is reguardless of what you say. The SOCOM standard mag only holds 2/3 of what an AR15 30rnd mag holds reguardless of what you say. .308 ammo weighs about twice as much as .223 ammo reguardless of what you say. These are undeniable facts.

If you like your SOCOM that's great, I never said there was a reason not to.

Now GROW UP and stop acting like a nit-wit.

Terry

Well I have used both, considerable amount, and regarding recoil of the two, the AR 5.56mm uses something over 20grains of powder, bullet weights ranging from 55-80, supposedly same weight as SOCOM, gas operated, yet the 308 caliber gun uses something over 40grains of powder, bullet weight approx. double of the 5.56, gas operated, same weight, so I do not follow same recoil for SOCOM vs AR?? In fact one of the primary reasons High Power match shooters have nearly all switched to the AR platform is the much less recoil you have to deal with in rapid fire stages. Heavier caliber requires you have a very stable, firm position whether sitting or prone rapid and the AR is just much easier to control yet delivers outstanding accuracy equal to or greater than most M1A/M14's. You just don't hear the term "mouse gun, mouse poop(spent rnds)" from M1A shooters anymore, if there are any still shooting them that is.

Terry,

Like I said before, You've never used the rifle, go get yourself an education before you start mouthing off. Please reread and think about what I said, or have someone else read it to you and explain to you what it means. Thank you for your cooperation.

quote:

Originally posted by MFD:
Well I have used both, considerable amount, and regarding recoil of the two, the AR 5.56mm uses something over 20grains of powder, bullet weights ranging from 55-80, supposedly same weight as SOCOM, gas operated, yet the 308 caliber gun uses something over 40grains of powder, bullet weight approx. double of the 5.56, gas operated, same weight, so I do not follow same recoil for SOCOM vs AR?? In fact one of the primary reasons High Power match shooters have nearly all switched to the AR platform is the much less recoil you have to deal with in rapid fire stages. Heavier caliber requires you have a very stable, firm position whether sitting or prone rapid and the AR is just much easier to control yet delivers outstanding accuracy equal to or greater than most M1A/M14's. You just don't hear the term "mouse gun, mouse poop(spent rnds)" from M1A shooters anymore, if there are any still shooting them that is.

MFD,

Apparently, you've never used a SOCOM 16 and never reloaded anything. If you want information, then ask, but don't sit there and tell me you've shot both "A considerable amount" and say the SOCOM recoil is twice as much as an AR. You guys need to swallow your pride a little and ask questions about things you don't know instead of trying to get information by posting BS.

Gentlemen, here are some Random thoughts on the matter in question...

As in my above posts, I feel the 223 vs the 308 [5.56 vs 7.62 if you will] must be judged on the issues of the cartridges and the rifles that fire them.

Sadly if NATO had adopted the 280 British, then we would not be having this discussion, but THAT is another story...

THE 223/5.56 IN the AR15/M16 has proven to be an adequate Combat rifle. For the Civilian or Police, using Soft point ammo does increase its effectiveness on people in typical self defense situations.

In the Sand Box I have talked to Civilian Contractors and Delta Force Operatives, and have recieved 2 different opinions.

The CC liked the 77gr Sierra bullets as they mostly shoot people out in the open, where the Delta force folks have gone back to Green Tip Ball as they are making "Hits" where penetration through intermediate obsticals is important to them. The Delta guys I have talked to report NO functioning problems with the M16.
The Civilian Contractors report the same.

For Open Desert use the Seals like the M 14. Also the Army "Troops" that came down from the north in Afgan. had some M14's, many with 18" barrels, with scopes/red dots, and they liked them for their longer range, increased hitting and penetrating power.

It boils down for different needs for different deeds.

As to RECOIL... The SOCOMS I have shot have virtually NO RECOIL. Their "brake" is most effective, I just wish their accuracy was better.

My 18" M1A with the standard flash hider does have a little more recoil than a M4, or a AR 15 Carbine... A little more, not twice as much...

I think for regular troops the 5.56 is the better choice, for Highly Trained Spec Ops Troops, the 7.62 is a good choice for many missions...

For John Q Public... AS a Personal Protection Rifle, the AR 15 in 223/5.56 is probably the best choice....UNLESS, you live in the country, and/or live in a wild pig/bear area, then a 308 would be a better choice for you.

Of course the best plan is to have BOTH, and use/carry them accordingly.

Hello ditch,

I stand corrected regarding recoil since the "brake" was not considered by my comments.
However; would like to suggest you apply the "brake" and use a bit more civility in your opposing comments, just a friendly piece of advise.

quote:

Originally posted by ditch:
Terry,

Like I said before, You've never used the rifle, go get yourself an education before you start mouthing off. Please reread and think about what I said, or have someone else read itto you and explain to you what it means. Thank you for your cooperation.

Like I said before, the things Idaho Sharpshooter said are undeniable facts.

1. A .308 round weighs twice as a .223 round. No matter how you want to spin it that's a fact. You say it takes 3 .223 rounds to equal the effectivness of one .308 round. That is not a fact, it's pure BS.

2. The SOCOM mag holds 20 rounds That's 2/3 of a standard issue AR 15 mag. That's what he said and it's true!

3. The .308 has twice the recoil of a .223 This is a fact. well, actually it's about 3 times the recoil. The SOCOM has a break, that break relieves some of the felt recoil and makes the rifle much louder and less user friendly, but the fact remains, a .308 cartridge itself has more than twice the recoil of a .223. That's what the man said and it's true.

4. Accurate range is about the same. While I've never owned a SOCOM I've owned many rifles chambered in both cartridges and I would agree with this statement also. If you changed the word accurate out with effective you might have a point, but he didn't. From some of the reports I've read about the horrible accuracy of the SOCOM it may be a wild exaggeration.

I never said anything negative about the SOCOM, only that what Idaho Sharpshooter said was true. If you like the weapon that's great. I've said nothing to discourage anyone from buying one.

I do agree with others that in 10 years the SOCOM will probably be one of those rifles remembered as a failed concept.

Terry

Terry, you just don't get it. Now go put on your tactical vest and pray to your AR while the adults talk.

Yeah, I get it. You paid a butt load of cash for your rifle and you get the red ass if anyone dares to say anything about it that doesn't meet your approval.

It's the internet, you can act like a dick all you want but nothing has changed. What the man said is true.

Terry

Are you wearing the vest?

No, just a T-shirt

Peace,brother.

Back at you.

Thanks