For us "civilians" it boils down to this IMHO of course...

For a "Personal Protection Rifle" [PPR]
I would recommend, AR 15 carbine with the 16" barrel. With the sights and lights of your choice...

For a "use in the woods,I live in the Country, drive the open road" gun, ie the "Field Protection Rifle" [FPR] I would want a 308.

Also if Money $$$ is an issue, and you want a FPR a M1 Garand in 30/06, or 308 is not a bad choice either.

In fact a Tanker Garand in 30/06 or 308 is even legal in most states that do not allow "Assault Rifles".

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
For us "civilians" it boils down to this IMHO of course...

For a "Personal Protection Rifle" [PPR]
I would recommend, AR 15 carbine with the 16" barrel. With the sights and lights of your choice...

For a "use in the woods,I live in the Country, drive the open road" gun, ie the "Field Protection Rifle" [FPR] I would want a 308.

Also if Money $$$ is an issue, and you want a FPR a M1 Garand in 30/06, or 308 is not a bad choice either.

In fact a Tanker Garand in 30/06 or 308 is even legal in most states that do not allow "Assault Rifles".

Why and how can you recommend a 16" 223 over a 16" 308? How does that work? The only constant you have is bullet weight, a 223 relies solely on velocity to kill, velocity goes away due to many reasons, bullet weight never goes away. Cavemen figured this out a long, long time ago, that's why they used big rocks, instead of little bitty rocks to kill stuff. Don't buy a 223 because the government uses it...use some common sense. People whine about the weight of the m14 rifle and ammunition, and in the same sentance brag about the ten pounds of shit they can strap to their AR. A 308 can use 110gr. SP or V-max, a 223 can never use a 175gr. Matchking. These are the facts, and they are undisputed.

ditch

The 308 is one of my favorite rounds.

However for "most" people the 223 is easier to shoot.

Also many SPEC OPS prefer it because of its advantages in weight, recoil, and rapid firing...

And in the city it has less penetration, which for most uses is better as well.

With SP and HP bullets it has a good track record, adequate stoping power, good accuracy, etc.

The 308 with the lighter bullets does provide adequate stopping power and reduced penetration for urban use.

And it has the advantage of the heavier bullets when longer range and more penetration is needed.

There is a difference between "most people" and someone who is highly trained, and sees the need for the 308's advantages over the 223, and is also willing to accept its greater ammo weight recoil, etc.

Speaking for current Military, use most troops use the 223 [OK 5.56 when they carry it].

However some of the Spec Ops troops carried M 14's when they went ashore in Kuwaitt [SEALS]

And also when US Troops went south in Afg., many of them carrried M 14 in a Scout Squad set up.

Again I think it boils down to different needs for different deeds.

While many Military Operators do not think the 5.56 is "enough", even they say the 308 is "too much" for every Troop.

For Civilian use things are a little different.

If I could have only one I would pick a 308.

quote:

Originally posted by COOL:
When comparing M1A, SOCOM and SCOUT to 7.62 AR platforms I think the ArmaLite and Knight are better in all respects.
......
The ability to change the scoped 20" upper to a red dot equipped 16" upper in seconds gives the AR platform the edge in my opinion.

I agree. Plus the gas system of the AR-10 rifles is so much more versatile than that of the M-guns. You can use IMR4831 in an AR-10 if you want.

For the original poster, I saw lots of SOCOM's as soon as they came out - LOTS! Have seen a few since, but nowhere near as many as earlier.

For the patrol discussion, what's been discovered frequently is that bad guys are almost always in or near cars. The 223 has come up short many times when called upon in that capacity. It's prevailed many times too, certainly and is effective on soft targets and soft armor. Take your pick. Each has good and bad points.

Mark

I have the Scout M1A with 18" barrel, wood stock, and like it over the Socoms that I've handled. The 308 round reachs out with much more authority than the 223, but its hard to beat the Ar platform for all its verstility and economic virtues.

The best option is the the Ar-10. Gives you best of both worlds and gives you the versitility of buying different upper ends for your specific needs. Target and carbine, 16" to 24 in target barrels.

Armalite is a good rifle, have been satisfied with mine. Has removable handle and uses picininny rail for scopes and red dot sights.

The SOCOM was Springfield's offering to cash in on the "gee whiz look what I can hang on my rifle" craze.

ok, I own a Socom and am not happy with the accuracy at all. I can't understand why the 18" scout shoots so well and the 16" doesn't cut it. What I really like about the m1a is the iron sights. On the standard length I find it so easy to dial up to whatever range you want.They are easy to work and quick to change. Not to mention very durable. I have tried scout scopes and red dot sights on the Socom and much prefer the irons. I am concidering rebarreling the socom to a standard unless some of you have a load that works well in this short gun. I have yet to find 1.
As far as the 223 vs 308, I'm a 308 fan. I don't need to carry a bunch of ammo with me. I'm not anticipating any fire fights. No doubt the 308 carries a lot more whollop than the 223. Everyone has a different need and we will pick our calibers accordingly.

quote:

Originally posted by mikem0553:
ok, I own a Socom and am not happy with the accuracy at all. I can't understand why the 18" scout shoots so well and the 16" doesn't cut it. What I really like about the m1a is the iron sights. On the standard length I find it so easy to dial up to whatever range you want.They are easy to work and quick to change. Not to mention very durable. I have tried scout scopes and red dot sights on the Socom and much prefer the irons. I am concidering rebarreling the socom to a standard unless some of you have a load that works well in this short gun. I have yet to find 1.
As far as the 223 vs 308, I'm a 308 fan. I don't need to carry a bunch of ammo with me. I'm not anticipating any fire fights. No doubt the 308 carries a lot more whollop than the 223. Everyone has a different need and we will pick our calibers accordingly.

Hello Mike,

Was the accuracy still sub-par when you used a scope? What kind of groups were you getting? Alot of people say the SOCOM is not accurate, but the main problem folks have is the wide front sight and rear ghost ring. It was really designed for fast target aquisition at close ranges, but with a scope installed it sould equal the scout and standard M1A. Try 43 grains of IMR 4895, Hornady 150 grain SP and commercial brass and see if it functions.

ditch, I can assure it is not the sights on the SOCOM.

I do not think it is the barrel quality...

I have not had the oppertunity to experiment with a SOCOM, but IF I had one I would try this.

First I would take off the muzzle break and shoot it.

If it shot much better then I would try to have it fittted with either the standard M1A flash hider of a bird cage type like on the AR10's SR25's etc...

Now I am not sure if even the threads on the barrel would allow this, but I thend to think it might be the muzzle break, since EVERY SOCOM I am aware of is "not a good shooter" and EVERY 18" M1 A rifle I have shot has been a good shooter.

I have a muzzle break on my Tanker 308 Garand and it shoots great, I will see if I can fine out what brand it is...

Ditch, It shoots badley with whatever is on it. I now have the scout scope and am getting 5-6 in groups. So bad I won't even measure them. I think you may be on to somthing with the fast burning powder and a little lighter bullet. a 1 in 11 twist on a 16" barrel seems like it would be more conducive to that combo. I think the flash supressor may also have somthing to do with it. Anyway the rifle is going to the gunshop this week and we will find out. I have 2000 round on this rifle and also wonder if it may be shot out. Still, the m1a is a great rifle to shoot, just not this one.

it's my understanding that the muzzle brake was designed and the gas system tuned to make the Socom work with the 16" barrel. I don't have any idea what would happen if you started replacing parts.

The Muzzle Break on the T 26 Garand is a Smith Arms International.

Five to six inches at 100 yards is about right for the SOCOMS I have shot.

Last time I shot the 18" M1 A groups averaged 1.5 to 2" at 100 yards shooting off a front bag hadn under the forearm, no rear bag.

quote:

Originally posted by mikem0553:
Ditch, It shoots badley with whatever is on it. I now have the scout scope and am getting 5-6 in groups. So bad I won't even measure them. I think you may be on to somthing with the fast burning powder and a little lighter bullet. a 1 in 11 twist on a 16" barrel seems like it would be more conducive to that combo. I think the flash supressor may also have somthing to do with it. Anyway the rifle is going to the gunshop this week and we will find out. I have 2000 round on this rifle and also wonder if it may be shot out. Still, the m1a is a great rifle to shoot, just not this one.

You could even try 4198, it's quite a bit faster than 4895, but to be honest I think I'd send it in to Springfield, they guarantee the socom to shoot 3 moa and it has a lifetime warranty. With 2000 rounds down the pipe, depending on how hot you got it, it shouldn't be shot out yet.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
ditch, I can assure it is not the sights on the SOCOM.

I do not think it is the barrel quality...

I have not had the oppertunity to experiment with a SOCOM, but IF I had one I would try this.

First I would take off the muzzle break and shoot it.

If it shot much better then I would try to have it fittted with either the standard M1A flash hider of a bird cage type like on the AR10's SR25's etc...

Now I am not sure if even the threads on the barrel would allow this, but I thend to think it might be the muzzle break, since EVERY SOCOM I am aware of is "not a good shooter" and EVERY 18" M1 A rifle I have shot has been a good shooter.

I have a muzzle break on my Tanker 308 Garand and it shoots great, I will see if I can fine out what brand it is...

With the wide front sight and large appeture, it is harder to make precision hits. The muzzle brake is proprietary, SEI makes a DC vortex flash hider that they have tested with no significant increase in accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
The Muzzle Break on the T 26 Garand is a Smith Arms International.

Five to six inches at 100 yards is about rifle for the SOCOMS I have shot.

Last time I shot the 18" M1 A groups averaged 1.5 to 2" at 100 yards shooting off a front bag hand under the forearm, no rear bag.

I think the name of the company is now Smith Enterprises.

Random Thoughts.

In our "Modern Times" the 308 is TOO MUCH for every Troop.

IF NATO had addopted the 280 British....

The 223 will be with the USA for another 20 years...

The 308 will continue as the General Purpose Sniper and DM [Designated Marksman] and GMG round...

It will probably be @ another 8 years before another rifle replaces the Armalite system as the issue rifle for general troops...

I sent the Socom into the shop yesterday and we decided to put a 22" Kreiger chrome molly barrel on it with the original blade sight and flash supressor. Bet it shoots tighter groups when I get it back. My sugestion: If you love the idea of a short M1A, get the Scout version 18"

Mike

You cannot go wrong with a Kreiger.

Let us know how it shoots when get it back.

Just curious what twist, and why CM vs Stainless?

The twist is 1-12, like the originals. The CM choice was the gunsmith recomendation. He said the Stainless was soft at room temp. and got harder as it heated up. If I am not planning on serious competition, he felt the CM was a better choice. This is greek to me. I will carry this rifle in the pickup and saddle scabart, and use it mainly for hunting. I do know that the stainless might reflect the light more. I have a 1000 yd. range set up here where I live and always wanted to shoot it with iron sights. I hope this will do the trick.

For further comments... and civil discussion...

I have used an AR15/M16 type rifle as a work, and play gun for several [over 25] years with no functioning roblems, many times shooting over 1000 rounds in a day...

Still you always hear of reliability problems with the AR system....

However, starting with Vietnam, Republic of... all the way to the Sand Box, I have NEVER heard of ANY reliability issues with the M 14...[or the civilian M1 A...]

Has anybody else???

N E 450 No.2,
Short answer to your question as to reliabiity of the M1A/M14 rifle is NO. Long answer is a "partial yes" in that for competetion use, and reloads one should avoid reloading the same brass more than 3 times for case separation can/does occur, but that is not a fault of the rifle design/mechanics. I shot HP matches for some 40 plus years, now help out as Line Officer, and it is rare that either the M1A/M14 or the Garand have a malfunction and if so it is usually ammo related or new shooter not maintaining the rifle as he should. Bulk of guns "going down" are the 15/16 rifles, but again that is usually ammo related or mag not being seated. As a side note, the 15/16 will give you real problems if a blown primer fragment becomes lodged in that gas key on top of the carrier, you are done for the day. Unusual for this to occur, but it has happened. Can't happen on the M1A/M14.
Having said all of that, best scores are usually with the 15, but that is another topic.

martin

Blown extractors, oprods coming loose, gasplugs coming loose, jams caused by the shooter touching the oprod....M14s do fail.

Don't even get me started on the cast junk that has been coming out of Springfield.

Yes, all those things do happen and most likely by those loading hotter than need be and if they are gripping the op rod, shooter' fault. It would be good advise to torque the gas plug as needed, index it w/ paint mark, check it from time to time would help eliminate that problem.
I would certainly agree with you about the product coming out of Springfield, Inc. of late and yet still ask what I consider more money than it's worth.
For me, other than some custom builders, would opt to buy from Fulton Armory if wanting to purchase high quality build M1A NM or Service Grade. As most know, M14 was short lived service rifle and supply of mil spec parts not always easy to find, but believe Fulton uses mostly mil spec in their builds.

My Friend zeroed his new SA Scout (18inch 308 with weaver mount on barrel) and with Mag Tech Ball it shot small knots at 25 yds with both iron sights and his Trijicon Reflex, at 100 yds it was in the 2.5 inch range from bipod and rear bags with the trijicon, did not get to the irons as the Wx deteriorated rather quickly from a neat 50 degs to about 20 in the course of the session.

No malfunctions noted.

Did not chronograph but the listed velocity was 2810 from a 24 inch bbl, so I expect about 2600-2650 from the 18 incher.

Gents, thanks for the replies. I am familar with Garand, M1A/M14, and AR's in Match rifle use, I was speaking more along the lines of Military use in the field.

I have just never heard of any bad soldier feed back on the M 14 from the field.

quote:

Originally posted by BECoole:
Blown extractors, oprods coming loose, gasplugs coming loose, jams caused by the shooter touching the oprod....M14s do fail.

Don't even get me started on the cast junk that has been coming out of Springfield.

What do you know about "cast junk"? Do you know the difference between cast and forged? Do you know why the M1 Garand and original M14 receivers were forged? What is your experience with Springfield M1A?

Had one, sold it for an AR. It shed extractors. The first one broke in half.

Talk to friends and fellows on the line about theirs. I see alot of them that are shot alot more than they are bragged about. At least one guy had problems with a commercial op rod. Another one had the bolt blow through the rear of the receiver. I'll admit these aren't the majority of the guns, but the quality isn't getting better as the NIB .mil parts get used up.

I have a problem with reliability discussions of "guns", that are used by Target shooters.

You just do not know who has worked on them, what has been done to them, then throw in reloaded ammo....

Most of the problems with the 30/06, 308 and 223 cometition rifles on the target line can be traced to "bad" ammo...

quote:

Originally posted by BECoole:
Had one, sold it for an AR. It shed extractors. The first one broke in half.

Talk to friends and fellows on the line about theirs. I see alot of them that are shot alot more than they are bragged about. At least one guy had problems with a commercial op rod. Another one had the bolt blow through the rear of the receiver. I'll admit these aren't the majority of the guns, but the quality isn't getting better as the NIB .mil parts get used up.

So at this point and time it's just talk from two people who couldn't load a sandwich in a paper bag. How many M1A's has Springfield made? I think maybe we should slow down here, let's not shut the production line down quite yet. As far as the trouble you had, you should have used your lifetime warranty, it would have been the most reliable rifle you own. Sorry you had trouble.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I have a problem with reliability discussions of "guns", that are used by Target shooters.

You just do not know who has worked on them, what has been done to them, then throw in reloaded ammo....

Most of the problems with the 30/06, 308 and 223 cometition rifles on the target line can be traced to "bad" ammo...

Thank you.

Perhaps for another forum....but there is more to what 450 No 2, and others say.

There is a WORLD of difference between a shooter----and a gun fighter.

I can say that I never had any problems with any Garand, M1A/M14, or AR15/M16, that I used.

I always had good guns and good ammo, either factory or MY handloads...

Whether it was for work,hunting, Match, or shot in a high round count school.

Well I did have one problem one time with a M4 Commando in a high [1000+ rounds a day] round count school.

I was experimenting with different lubes and did have the gun totally lock up durring a drill...

I finished the drill with a handgun and then, with some difficulty broke the rifle down, relubed with Break Free, and finished the day.

I have NEVER had a problem with an AR/M16 as long as I used Break Free.

Also let me add when it comes to 308's I have had several reliability problems with AR 308's.


And this is at the range, not considering battlefield conditions.

And remember I have no issues or "dog in the fight", just my observations...

My personal favorite, the H&K 91...

But in todays world, in the USA, the M1A would be my pick for a 308...

And IF I lived in a state where a M1A was not an option, an M1 Garand in 30/06 or 308, especially a Tanker, with a few thousand rounds in 8 round clips, would be my choice...

And I say this with a "little" experience with an M1 Garand.

Think about it, after the first 8 rounds, everybody that is still alive, will be hiding behind something...

Man - this business about battle rifles and recoil...

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
As to RECOIL... The SOCOMS I have shot have virtually NO RECOIL.

I agree -- and the m4/m16... also have essentially no recoil.
So the guy who complained about the "2X" recoil of the .308 might be right after all.
Y'know, because twice of nothing still equals nothing!






I'll use whatever is handy when the time comes.



Cheers
Tinker

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:

Think about it, after the first 8 rounds, everybody that is still alive, will be hiding behind something...

+ 1


and what they are hiding behind had better be sturdy !!! LOL

posted on this thread was 1000+ rds a day with ar type, no malfunctions,
question then is how many times a day do you clean it or about how many rds before the bolt is to gummy to function

The accuracy problems the Socom's have is the bedding/stock. Bed the factory stock you should cut your groups almost in half. Put a Troy, Sage, or JAE stock on and with good glass keep up with the black guns.

Ditch, 125 grain Speer TNT's over Ramshot Tac about 2950fps cuts coyotes almost in half. I get 2" @ 100 yards with em.

Used the M-16 overseas, I don't and won't own one as a civilian.



The best M-14 site period! http://m14tfl.com/upload/forumdisplay.php?f=130

anukpuk-

quote:

Originally posted by anukpuk:...1000+ rds a day...
... how many times a day do you clean it or about how many rds before the bolt is to gummy to function

I'm not sure about the other guys and their experiences - years ago I was in the middle of a 'high round count training course' with a 16" AR. One afternoon while 'on a walk to a target' with an instructor, he stepped on a cable with one foot, raised it with the other foot, and I proceeded to trip and nearly faceplant with the next step.
My carbine went ejection-port side first into the desert floor, stuffing the objective end of the optics full of silt - and also somehow shoving the bolt half-way back out of battery and full of silt.

I did a quick recovery/ditch to cover/attempt to return the rifle to useful condition, quickly realized the issues and that my rifle was stuck.
It took a moment to get down to a boot-heel on charging handle-while slamming rifle butt into the earth (impact hammer special!) to free the bolt group and clear the upper receiver of silt and crap.
Shook the glass clean of debris (blew a butler creek cap to bits) and took a peek through it (looked fine, thanks leupold!) and sprayed the whole thing down with water from the CamelBak then kept walking...

Finished the course with that rifle, no additional lubrication besides the water, followed up with something in the neighborhood of 400+ more rounds of ammunition, zero malfunctions, and ended up shooting a quarter-sized group of five (at 200yds) at twilight that evening.
The scope didn't move off it's zero at all, and even with the dust/water 'spa treatment' I never had a failure to feed/chamber/fire.



Cheers
Tinker