quote:

Originally posted by doubledown:
The accuracy problems the Socom's have is the bedding/stock. Bed the factory stock you should cut your groups almost in half. Put a Troy, Sage, or JAE stock on and with good glass keep up with the black guns.

Ditch, 125 grain Speer TNT's over Ramshot Tac about 2950fps cuts coyotes almost in half. I get 2" @ 100 yards with em.

Used the M-16 overseas, I don't and won't own one as a civilian.



The best M-14 site period! http://m14tfl.com/upload/forumdisplay.php?f=130

It's a damn fine bullet amigo, TAC is one of the slower burning powders, finding a load using IMR 4198, 3031 or 4895 will cut down on muzzle flash, but it sounds like you've got her dialed in with the load you're using, which I might add would make a very effective defensive round for home or CQ.

quote:

Originally posted by anukpuk:
posted on this thread was 1000+ rds a day with ar type, no malfunctions,
question then is how many times a day do you clean it or about how many rds before the bolt is to gummy to function

Sorry I missed your question as I was hunting and traveling, and just now ran across it.

Bottom line is, I discovered early on that the AR 15 runs best when well lubed with BreakFree.

I have tested several other different kinds of lubes, many that have been specifically recommended for the AR type rifles, and NOTHING has worked as well as BreakFree.

Because of my former Job I have shot a LOT of AR15/M16's, with many high round count days for several days in a row, with a LOT of it on full auto. I always lubed the rifle, especially the gas rings every 200 rounds or so, starting out just to make my rifle and again, especially the gas rings, last longer. As a by product I began to notice that many of the others were having problems by lunch time. Most of them cleaned and then lubed their guns at lunch, and then did not have any functioning problems till near the end of the day. I started out giving the gun a clean at lunch too, but one time I did a test, I did not clean the rifle, I just kept it lubed. I would clean it at the end of the day.

Well after 3 days of not cleaning the rifle at lunch, just keeping it lubed durring the day, I had had no malfunctions.

So I started lubing a couple of the other guys guns, ones that always seemed to have malfunction problems, and guess what, they stopped having problems.

This lube regimen worked in windy sandy and dusty days as well as when shooting in the rain, or in cold weather.

I have even tried on purpose to overlube an AR/M16, with BreakFree, never had any problems.

So my thoughts are IF you can carry, and might possibly need to shoot 500 or 800 rounds through an AR type rifle, you can surely carry a small bottle of BreakFree.

If you are pressed for time, the most critical thing I would clean on an AR is first the chamber, second the rear of the gas piston and the rear of the bolt carrier.

Also, I know you are supposed to use grease on Garands and M14's. I can also say, as long as I kept one of these guns lubed up with BreakFree, I have never had any functioning problems with them either.

Talking about lube I was instructing some rifle training.

One of my fellow troopers came up and I started him on the course of fire.

It was malfuntion one after the other. I had to stop the course of fire becase he couldn't get more the two rounds off in a row some times only one.

I had him unload make safe I then took his rifle for a look.

It was so dry I thought I could use it for sand paper.

We always taught them to properly lube their M16s. His being former milltary also He should of knew better.

Well he had been talking to some one who just back from the sandbox. They told him that they had to run their rifles dry to make them work.

So being the super smart one he took a can of gun srubber and took all the lube off.

I then grabbed a bottle of break free out of my armorer kit and lube it down well.

The rifle ran fine the rest of the day.

Intresting thread. Not so long ago, I purchased a Socom. I was at the time an active Police Sergeant and needed a weapon that would reduce cover to concealment if it came to that. My agency issued machine gun ball ammo. 147 grains I believe. We would take them out of the links and load them in our M1A/M14 mags (M14's had the selector switch removed0. I put a Aimpoint on the non standard rail and attempted to dial the weapon in. My thoughts were massive concussion with .243ish recoil. It was a 50 yard rifle with my issued ammo. I sent the rifle back to Springfield as I too had 5-6 MOA groups at 100 yards, and for a new front sight as mine shot low. Springfield replaced the front sight and fired the rifle with 168 grain loads which grouped about 2.5 MOA and sent it back to me. Which didn't help me at all as I could not use the ammo Springfield tested the rifle with. Fortunately I never had to use the weapon.

I've since retired and got rid of it, and now own another piston driven weapon, a Ruger AR, that its only downside is its a little nose heavy and it has every bit of an 8 pound trigger that needs to go. Accuracy is 2 MOAish at 100 with 855 ball. Better eyes and less of a coffee drinker than myself could make the group shrink at least .5 or more MOA.

I find that mil spec ammo 1.5 moa is about right.

Even in scope sighted very accurate bolt guns I get about that on the avg.

In my experience IF you are getting 1.5 MOA groups, at 100 yards, with Military ball ammo, in a 5.56 or a 7.62 then you are doing plenty great.

I have a 16" socom and I was getting the 5 " groups every one else was speaking about. I changed to 110 gr bullets and groups shrunk in half. I ordered a troy battle rail and a lamanated, high comb target style stock for it. I took it to the range and it shot real well untill it shot loose in the stock. The stock was unfinished and needed glass bedding and shaping. It should turn out real nice when finished. That said " the muzzel break works well but is too loud for cqb work with out hearing protection"! When I get it finished it will wear a smith industries front end and a sas can.

For under 150 yards I like the 300 blk better than a short M1A1. I have read the 18 scout shoots real well.

I had a bushmaster 308 that was great, accurate and feed anything, I sold it to a buddy to buy my scar 17. I wish I had sold the socom and keeep the bushmaster.
I just think the ar 10 is a more robust set up that the m1a.and easier to keep shooting well ( no bedding work required)

I like the fn scar 17 best of all. I have 250 rounds through it with out a hicup. It points well, carrys well, works great and shots accuratre with all loads tested. 1.5 moa are better. The only thing my scar need is a after market trigger.

JD

Just get a LE 901--shoots both with another upper, spring, plug and the adapter. My LE shoots .6 at 100 (10 shot groups btw) and can use a mil spec 223 or 5.56 upper for the smaler round..

When I spoke to customer service at Springfield complaining of my groups, and before I sent the rifle back, they recommended 110 TAP loads from Hornady for the Socom.

Couple things wrong with that, one was the expense of stuffing 20 round mags full of 25 dollar a box ammo. Two, my agency didn't authorize that ammo for use. So I never tried it out.

I liked the premise of the Socom, but as mentioned by a previous poster, it was not a CQB weapon by any means inside a building. If you didn't have GREAT ear protection you were probably out of the fight with the first shot due to the concussive blast.

If you were outside and a had to shred, say a car in your driveway for some reason, its a great weapon. But so's an AK for a third of the price.

Lee I too have really liked the concept of a M1-A SOCOM for CQB, and for an urban "car" gun.

They do handle very nice. I like the 18" M1-A's but, the SOCOMs handle really slick.

However as I have stated, the ones I have personaly shot, and reports from others that have them, indicate that the Accuracy leaves too much to be desired.

I've run ARs to three thousand rounds without cleaning. Keep them wet an its fine. The only part that actually has to be cleaned is the chamber, and that needs it very infrequently.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Gents, thanks for the replies. I am familar with Garand, M1A/M14, and AR's in Match rifle use, I was speaking more along the lines of Military use in the field.

I have just never heard of any bad soldier feed back on the M 14 from the field.

I've heard scattered reports. There are no trained armorers anymore so the current incarnation doesn't receive adequate support. I've met very few Soldiers who preferred it to a Mk12 or SR25 or similar in the DMR role.

Interesting threadbut if we are honest any M-14 is just an updated M-1.
The unasked question is 7.62 vs 5.56 in an AR platform.
Owning two of each if I were in place where the bad guys had body armor or vehicles, I be dragging the DPMS 16" barreled 7.62. With 150 gr Barnes Tactical Xs it will hold 1.5 MOA as far as I can see you through its 6X "pound in tent stakes" Russsian scope (http://kalinkaoptics.com/rifle-scopes/posp/posp-8x42-variposp-rifle-scope-w-five-setting-illuminated-7-62x39-bdc-reticle-and-400-meter-rangefinder-weaver-version.html) typo sez 8X it's 6X.
Love the reticle, not for driving tacks, for shooting bad guys. Being illuminated helps too.
Ever heard of Zeiss Jena ? Guess who owned it until the wall came down ?
Gun is heavier than a 15, ammo is heavier but no bad guy will try to drive through your roadblock or hide behind a cinderblock wall and live to tell the tale.

If you're in a "defensive mode", no reason not to have both at hand.

Ryan

Reports I am getting back from the Sandbox, from people I know, state that the Knights 308 AR is NOT a reliable battlefield rifle.

It works OK as a Sniper Rifle as long as you have some standoff, and are not in direct action, ie. when it malfunctions you are not under immediate threat of death.

Just recently, in the last few months I have shot several different factory 308 AR's, by several different makers. NONE of them would run anywhere near 100%. In fact all of them would not shoot a whole magazine without malfunction, and a couple were not even reliable for two or 3 rounds.

On the other hand, again, I have not heard one single complaint from a Sandbox user of a M14.

I can only report what I have been told.

I can also say tht many of the current made Springfield Armory M1-A's have had problems and had to be sent back. Non USGI parts have just about dried up, and many think that is the current problem with Springfield M1-A's, as well as some build quality problems.

I have seen several thousand Colt AR 15's and M16's shot brand new, out of the box and if Lubed with BreakFree, I never saw one that did not work 100%.

I have seen around 2000, to 2500 Rock River AR15's shot, new out of the box with no problems, except one. I saw a few rifles that the firing pin retaining pin was a little to large for the hole after the rifle was shot a few hundred rounds, and could not be reinserted into the bolt by hand. A new retaining pin solved the problem. This problem was observed on only a few, 10 to 15 rifles.

In my limited experience; the M1A platform (less the SOCOM, never used one so I don't know) and the M4 platforms are great guns. Like any good tool, choose the best one for the job. I probably don't have the real or imagined experience of many on this topic, but I never had a problem with either one. I never saw a AR .308 platform that would function reliably.

As for the AK, they are extremely reliable and require little to no maintenance; and they are the weapon of choice for the untrained/unskilled masses for that reason. However, hitting your target past 50m requires more luck than skill. The only time I carried one was to blend with the people I was working with at the time.

If I ever had to work a job again where I knew I would be in a fight, I would be happy with an M4 or M1A.

Guy I know at 2/75 reports that their SR25s work well and are reserved for their snipers. They are using 110s as DMRs but they don't have the accuracy of the 25s. Early 110s were unreliable but apparently they are getting better, accuracy can still be problematic. The SR25 carbine is in use in small numbers somewhere else but I don't have anyone there to tell me more. Certainly lots of M110 hate in the Army. Early on they had an issue with coatings and finishes in the upper and dimensional stacking, leading to a recall (I was told).

Reportedly the OBR runs like a champ on 118LR but can choke on commercial ammunition.

The early AR10s (Danish/Port) ran fine, for what it is worth.

I know a few people who have had issues with 14s, mostly minor. When placed in a chassis they are mostly 2 minute guns, but 14 pounds and up. Lost of complaints about the complexity of the chassis systems. The former commander of AMU said the acceptance standard for 14s was 7moa and many are 4 minute guns. They also apparently have a MRBF similar to the M4. Since most of the DMR rifles use only M80 I wonder what the point was. M80 is subsonic at less than 700m, and that is within the range of a MK12 or similar with AA53 ammo.

In any case, with ammunition that is available commercially you can shoot through a car with an M4 so I have little need for .308 and put all of my M80, M118 and M852 for sale on gunbroker.

My scar 17 has runs with out a hicup. The one problem I had was with 200gr round nose. I tried to let the bolt close quitely in the deer stand.

JD

"Reports from the sandbox" I just love that phrase. No attribution, no verifiable facts, just how many semi-auto 7.62s are in action in the"sandbox" (the war in Iraq is over and Afghanistan is hardly a desert war) ?

From my own experience in the high desert of Wyoming which is a dusty place everyday when the wind comes up at noon, my DPMS 7.62 has never stuttered once and is probably pushing 1000 rounds through the four different uppers it carries/has carried. Gets no special treatment, a squirt of wipeout, a Hoppe's soaked boresnake dragged through and a few drops of Brownell's gun oil in the action every few 100 rounds."just keeps tickin".
Never owned an M-14 but spent a lot of time behind an M-1. Fail to see how an open topped action can be more reliable in dirty conditions than one with a spring loaded dust cover.
The AR's weak points are you can't butt stroke with it and you're in deep dodo in a bayonet encounter if the other guy has a Mosin or a SMLE
(fairly common "over there".)
That's why God gave JMB the brains to build the 1911.

4bare

My "reports" are all first hand, either face to face, many from guys in schools I was teaching, or schools I was in, or in the e mails I have recieved over the years.

You might be suprised at how many 7.62's have been used "over there".
For example the first people that "swam" into Kuwait, all had M14's.

And the large group of soldiers that came down through the top of Afgan. contained many men with M 14's.

Well, sorry.

Since we both own 450 Nitro #2 3&1/2s (mine has one barrel) you're obviously a smart guy.

Still, I find it odd that outside of the Internet (where everything is open to question) it is interesting that no body of published work on the failings of the 7.62 AR or the M-14 exists.

As I said never owned an M-14 but have a National Match M-1. If I sat both on the ground and tossed a shovel full of sand on both actions (cover closed on AR 7.62) I'd wager it would run just fine and the M-1 would pack up after the first shot.

Watched many quality AR15 tests on video and am always amazed the horrible things done to them and they still function. Worst one, I recall, was buried in diluted gumbo mud. Removed, a canteen of water poured into the action and down the bore, a magazine change and away she went without a glitch (not a piston gun).

If you could point me to some books or magazines on the subject, I'd appreciate it as I still read more hours than watching TV.

Thanks!

I also have first hand reports from SPEC Ops troops on the M16/M4.

These guys do not have any functioning problems with them.

Here is what they tell me:
We keep the rifle clean. We lube them with BreakFree.
We keep the dustcover closed. [I have been in training with them, they will close the dust cover anyting there is a lull in the shooting.
Many of them close it as soon as their finger leaves the trigger].

They never let the rifle "hang around" with out a magazine in the mag well. [This just allows dust/sand to get into the weapon in mass.
They Keep the rifle lubed with BreakFree.

And from another group, IF your M16/M4 is for "some reason" underwater, be sure the gas tube has NO water in it before you shoot it...

They keeep the rifle clean.

On the AR10's [Any 308 that looks like an AR 15, I call for generic purposes an AR10...]

I do not think [I do not have proof of this], but I do not think they are keeping enough BreakFree on them.

Also I can personally say, I have shot a lot more AR10 type rifles that did not work, than I have shot AR10's that did work.

On the M1 Garands and M14/M1-A's, they do have what could be called "an exposed action with holes in it that will let in a lot of "dirt".

But what they have in their favor is also a lot of room in the action mechanism for that dirt, and a lot of holes to let it out...

Kinda the same with the H&K G3's and the AK's.

The FN-FAL's more like the AR's, and they do not work well in the sand either...

Good info. I also use Break Free on all my guns and have for decades. As the only "AR 10" I own is the DPMS, so I can't speak to any other brand.
Mine runs 100% with a 260 LR, 308 LR, 308 "door kicker" (16") and 300 SAUM LR. All the LRs are scary accurate but you need a set of wheels if you plan to hunt with any LR model. Took an Antelope with the 260. Wearing a 4-16 S&B and bipod it was 12.5 pounds all up. 120 TSX, bang flop @245 lasered yards.

A 450 3.5" question for you. What brass do you use ? The Betram I have has a rim 80 thou thick and my Ruger No.1 ejector won't always get around the rim. Thanks.

I have always used Bertram brass, as when I first got my 450 No2 it was the only brass around. So far it has worked great for me, I have never ruined a case.

Thanks, the No. 1 was moded by SSK from a 458 WRA. I finally got Ruger to sell me a couple of 45-70 ejectors as that is the thickest rim Ruger chambered No. 1s in.
The moded 458 ejector works fine if the hammer is dropped but otherwise only travels about 2/3rds of the rims thickness when you close her up.
The 45-70 will probably work with a bit of stoning but if the problem remains a bigger roller on the breechblock will push the ejector farther forward and get it past the rim.
Never seen any case (except a shotgun) with such a thick rim.

All of the Jeffery cartridges had thicker rims than the other cartridges of the day.

Another company did make some 450 No2 brass, it might have been Jameson, but I annot remember.

It still should have the same rim dimensons, as that is how a double rifle headspaces.

Thanks for that info. That's probably why Ruger never chambered for it as they would have had to change the ejector or roller dimensions. At least I now know what is required to make it as reliable as all my other No. 1/3s.

Thanks !

Type of lube isn't so important to M4s. 2/75 uses ATF, some guys use 30W, Marines use TW25B grease on howitzers so they have it in large quantities and it's used on rifles too, Pat Rogers lubes dry student guns with vagisil to prove a point, etc. Damn things just run. I like grease, it doesn't burn off as easily suppressed.

If anything, 7.62 makes less sense for SF than 5.56mm because of the inconsistency of resupply. DA SOF types it doesn't matter as much for but their shooting is close.

Moble one works well, and stays put even when run real wet. I am looking for some slick 50 syn. I will treat the internals of my new can with it when I get the stamp, I think it may make cleaning easier.

JD

Well, here's the deal. . . .
I bought the SOCOM 16", and have never been happier.
I took off that stupid barrel mounted scope base and put on a solid handguard.
It shoots well enough with the peep sights to regularly nail pop cans at 250 yards, so I think for what it's for, shoots well enough.
Not quit as well before I removed the scope base.
I find it much handier than the full sized M1As.
If you are wanting a long range tac driver, then it's probably not the rifle for you; I have plenty of highly accurate bolt guns for that, but for a short, fast handling, hard hitting peep sighted rifle for out to about 300 yards, it's perfect. Function has been flawless with many types of ammo; never a hiccup.
On the other hand I have had about a dozen AR platforms, two of which were DPMS AR10s in .308.
I could not keep either one running without jambs. Sold all my ARs a few years back.