What do you think? Is this cartridge going to be with us for a long time?

KB

In a word.... NOPE!

It'll got the way of the super short mags, 450 Marlin, 6.5 and 6.8 AR rounds, 8mm Rem, 10mm, and on and on. In other words, an ok round with a very limited niche appeal, that solves a problem that wasn't really a problem to begin with. My 2 cents.

Bob

It's just that I found what I think is a really good deal on a new R-15 rifle chambered in 30 AR. Also the performance of the cartridge per Remington is impressive in the AR 15 size rifle. The price of the rifle is just too good to ignore.

KB

To clarify on the above, buy it if you like it and stock up on 500 or 1000 pieces of brass and be set. That way you can ignore the marketing geniuses that get ammo companies to drop the same round they were hyping just the year before.

I just don't see it catching on, then getting relegated to seasonal runs, then dropped. A lot of more practical rounds have or are going down that path (10mm, 480, 416 Rem, etc) which is a shame.

It's a hard decision. I suppose it's sorta like finding a nice truck with a big V8, which has been discounted to 2/3 the price of a truck with the same chasses but with a V6 right next to it on the lot. A guy can buy a lot of gas with the savings off the initial purchase price.

KB

Probably doesn't have a lot of future to a factory ammo shooter. Still risk is low if you stock up. Or convert to another caliber later if you aren't happy.

If you want it buy it but instead of 1000 rounds of brass remember its a semi auto.

No matter how careful Iam I lose a couple of casings each time I shoot one any amount.

So 3000 casings or more would better.

If you don't shoot it you well not lose casings but then why have it.

If you are going to shoot it you well lose casings so one needs them.

I am more likely to buy a odd caliber in a bolt or single shot then a semi.

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
It's a hard decision. I suppose it's sorta like finding a nice truck with a big V8, which has been discounted to 2/3 the price of a truck with the same chasses but with a V6 right next to it on the lot. A guy can buy a lot of gas with the savings off the initial purchase price.

KB

I own a 30 rem made in something like the 30's and my family owns the 30 rem my grandpa bought back in the 30's. Theyve been manufactured, around and used for not that much less than 100 years so I don't see the problem. I'd like to buy one of the ar platforms myself.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
I own a 30 rem made in something like the 30's and my family owns the 30 rem my grandpa bought back in the 30's. Theyve been manufactured, around and used for not that much less than 100 years so I don't see the problem. I'd like to buy one of the ar platforms myself.

Scott,

This is a completely different round than the one you are referring to; the .30 Rem. AR is based (the long way around) on a .284 Win. case.

George

Only problem I see is when they stop making brass and loaded ammo. Go try and buy a new box of 30 rem ammo.

Solution is to stock up.

30 rem is a lot differant then 30 Rem AR.

Well, I bought it.

KB

Well...its an AR. If the 30 Rem AR ever falls out of style, go to the next gunshow and pick up an upper in the next cartridge that tickles your fancy.

The biggest problem I see that might happen is that it may become my go-to hunting rifle, and all the others I have may not get used much.

There is a lot to like about it, starting with the cartridge. It's especially impressive coming from Remington, designed from scratch, specifically to serve as a premium hunting round for the AR15 constraints. I think it's impressive as a hunting cartridge for deer and hogs. I haven't been impressed with the short fat cartridges for the bolt actions, because I figured they aren't necessary. But the AR15 system has special considerations, and short/fat single stack is a good idea. It ought to feed about as good as it gets in the AR.

They found the right guy to market this thing to, because I think that I don't need more than five quick rounds. Never have thus far, so why should it be any different with a semi-auto compared to a bolt action? The most shots I can remember using at a single opportunity was three, on a group of pigs in Texas. Before they all ran off, I got two of them.

A while back, I ordered an AR10, but soon found out that the seller sold me a rifle that he didn't have in stock. Said it was on backorder. I asked for my money back, and fortunately he reimbursed it right away. So, that deal fell through, and now I'm glad for that, because I never did feel comfortable with the weight of the AR10.

KB

Good topic! I've been kicking this around here as well. I really want to get a 16" barrel upper for my AR so I can use it as a real legitimate gun for deer. The challenge has always been the cartridge. I looked hard at the 30 Rem AR in addition to the 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel, and 458 SOCOM. It seems like these last three have a more active following than the 30 Rem AR, even though the 30 AR has some pretty good thought and design behind it.

I'm still undecided on this, but I agree that the AR10 is just too big and heavy. A light, short AR15 would be ideal for lots of hunting I do.

Let us know how you like it once you give it a good run...

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
I own a 30 rem made in something like the 30's and my family owns the 30 rem my grandpa bought back in the 30's. Theyve been manufactured, around and used for not that much less than 100 years so I don't see the problem. I'd like to buy one of the ar platforms myself.

Scott,

This is a completely different round than the one you are referring to; the .30 Rem. AR is based (the long way around) on a .284 Win. case.

George

I had no idea! You knew that I guess. Thanks for the education.

quote:

Originally posted by Omnivorous_Bob:
In a word.... NOPE!

It'll got the way of the super short mags, 450 Marlin, 6.5 and 6.8 AR rounds, 8mm Rem, 10mm, and on and on. In other words, an ok round with a very limited niche appeal, that solves a problem that wasn't really a problem to begin with. My 2 cents.

Bob

Hate to burst your bubble, 6.8SPC is thriving. So much that mil supplier of 6.8 ammunition SSA left Nevada and moved to much, much larger operations base in Washington State.

I personally don't think the 30 Rem AR will survive. Does not offer mcuh. 6.8 about just right for AR platform without jumping to a much heavier AR-10.

quote:

Originally posted by BISCUT:
6.8 about just right for AR platform without jumping to a much heavier AR-10.

I just hate to argue about opinions. Maybe what you said about the 6.8 has merit re tactical issues, but IMO it falls short for hunting. I would much rather have a 6.5 Grendel than a 6.8 SPC.

Also the 30 AR lets a hunter get the proper performance without the need for the heavier AR-10. The 6.8 ain't in the same league as the 308, but the 30 AR is.

I think that the 150gr core lokt is just about right for deer and hogs, and I've been able to get some darn good accuracy from Rem factory ammo in other rifles. But I'm really looking forward to developing a hunting load using the Barnes 130 gr TTSX. About the only critters I wouldn't consider using that combo for is brown bear or moose, but it would probably work anyway. With lead core bullets, the 165gr .308 bullets can be pushed at a decent velocity from the 30 AR. It ain't no 300 magnum, but it's still in the game for use as a general purpose hunting rifle. If you think about the idea of light and handy and quick hunting rifle, I just don't know of a more ideal combo. If you can, I would like to read about your opinion on that. Anyway, it's my new truck and boat rifle.

BTW, I haven't given up on the 6.5 Grendel. The nice thing about this AR15 (or R-15) setup is the uppers can be swapped. I still have plans for a Grendel upper, simply because I really like that cartridge. It's such a dandy, especially in this rifle/cartridge combo.

In fact, I'm a cartridge and rifle nut case, certifiable, like many on this forum. Another AR15 type cartridge that catches my fancy is the 458 Socom.

It's a hobby for a lifetime. Support the NRA.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Well, I bought it.

KB

Good move. Get what you want. Now a set of dies, and it won't matter if no one makes ammo for it.

The dies arrived last week, along with a box of 100 Lapua 150gr Mega bullets. I have an assortment of powder available, that will probably work, or at least get me started. H335, Benchmark, H322.

Today, the scope base and rings assembly arrived. It's one of the Leupold Mark 2 1-piece Picatinny style mounts with integral 1" rings for the AR-15 flattop. Since this is my first AR15, I didn't know what to buy for rings, so I figured that I couldn't go wrong with the Leupold.

I don't know what scope would be "perfect" for this setup, but I have a new 3x9 Leupold VX-II set aside for this rifle. I haven't been dissappointed with those scopes yet. It ought to work.

KB

KB, I"m looking forward to your field reports.
Maybe some pictures of some groups and some dead pigs?

To me it's a in between round, if you are going to have just one AR maybe (if you intend to stock up on brass). In close my 300 blk is quieter burns less powder, and supresses much better (Sub or Sonic) I am talking about deer in the garden close 50 to 100 yards, out futher my 308 socom or bushmaster is a better choice. If the weight is a problem I would pick a bolt gun. If I had to pick just one I would go with the 6.5 creedmore or 260. The 6.5 bullets shoot well, have a much higher bc for the recoil and kill way beyond it's dia.

JD

I hope you bought a lot of brass. Remington has a habit of discontinuing brass without notice. Go buy some 416 Rem brass...

I think that IF Remy would neck that round down to 6.5MM they would have a winner.

KB, it's a fine cartridge. It's more than a 30-30. We all know that kills. Just buy some brass and burn out the barrel with it. If it's obsolete then, who cares?
Enjoy!

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by BISCUT:
6.8 about just right for AR platform without jumping to a much heavier AR-10.

I just hate to argue about opinions. Maybe what you said about the 6.8 has merit re tactical issues, but IMO it falls short for hunting. I would much rather have a 6.5 Grendel than a 6.8 SPC.

KB

Probably because you bought a Grendel. I bought a 6.8 SPC and it seems pretty capable with factory 120 SST or 110/100 Accubonds.

Yea, I have a friend who really likes his 6.8, and has taken several sitka blacktails with it, and has no problems at all with performance.

KB

KB--Two out of 3 pigs? Thats only 66%. You need a .223.

If I feel the need for a nice light 30 cal AR type---I'd go for the RRA LAR 47. A freind has one & it's sweet. Uses cheap ammo & cheap/available AK mags. I've always kind of wondered why all the struggle to come up with a "new" intermediate AR round when the worlds most popular cartridge can be found anywhere in the world & now days good quality accurate factory rounds are available easily & if you reload it's a great little accurate round. My Bulgarian SAM 7 is a tack driver.

I ended up selling the 30 Rem Ar upper and all the brass, dies etc.

Now, I'm assembling a 6.5 Grendel upper.

I also think the Rock River 7.62x39 is a good choice.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
I ended up selling the 30 Rem Ar upper and all the brass, dies etc.

Now, I'm assembling a 6.5 Grendel upper.

I also think the Rock River 7.62x39 is a good choice.

KB

Ever get a chance to ring it out KB? Why did you sell it?

I did wring it out, with various handloads and factory ammo. I sent it back to a gunsmith repair station (per Remington) for warranty work. They fixed some small issues and recrowned the barrel. The accuracy was not satisfactory to me. I'm sure that it was not the fault of the cartridge. I talked to the folks at DPMS who said that they just assembled the rifles for Remington. The upper offered by DPMS is made from the same parts, including the barrel.

Compared to some other stories coming from owners of DPMS rifles, this 30 RAR was dissappointing.

KB

If you are not happy neck up to .410 and shoot pistol and 300 grain 405 win bullets

Just my two cents

I've been doing lots of reading / research on something with a bit more to offer in a larger caliber than .223 ( I own an Armalite M15 NM Rifle ).

There might be a better .30 caliber choice ( 30/30 class ), with regards to long term availability of usable " Brass & Bullets ", using a new uppers & no modification to current AR M15/16 lowers, or stock .223 magazines.

300 AAC Blackout
" At 300 meters, 300 BLK has 16.7% more energy than 7.62x39mm..."
http://300aacblackout.com/

http://www.advanced-armament.c...C-BLACKOUT_c_40.html

http://www.300blktalk.com/forum/index.php


I also think " IMHO ", the " CEB .30 cal Raptor " (Hunting 100 - 130 Grn) * would be the perfect hunting bullets to use, in the 300 Blackout*
https://cuttingedgebullets.com...action&category=0308


PAPI

I'm going to add one more additional thought..HMMMM ?

Most of the listed information on the " 300 AAC Blackout " are done using a 16 " Barrel, or less, along with the normal off the shelf bullets (plinkers)..

Now lets consider using an 18"- 20" Barrel ( + FPS ? ), along with some premium " CEB Bullets " ( Lots of Terminal Testing done already ).

The " 300 AAC Blackout ", would now place it into another catagory,.. above that of the average/normal " 30/30 " class.. Again just " IMHO "..

Wilson Custom: 1x8 inch twist; 18 inch Barreled Upper
http://shopwilsoncombat.com/Co...ctinfo/TR-300RC18UP/

PAPI


EDIT: Located some additional info:
" 300 BLK does gain velocity up to and past a 30 inch barrel.

http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7426/300blk.jpg

Barrel length has virtually no effect on which powder to use to get the most velocity. I know it is commonly believed to be the case, but it just does not really work that way. It does a little, but primarily whatever powder gives the most velocity in a 6 inch barrel with probably also give the most velocity in a 24 inch barrel. This is because the powder that reaches peak pressure and velocity for any given bullet weight does so within the first inch of bullet travel.

300 BLK will gain about 65 fps per inch at around 9 inches, 43 fps per inch at around 12 inches, 28 fps per inch at around 16 inches, 21 fps per inch at around 20 inches , 17 fps per inch at around 24 inches, and 12 fps per inch at around 30 inches. You just need to decide where you want to stop... rsilvers February 14, 2012, 06:26 PM "
http://thefiringline.com/forum...ex.php?t-478939.html

quote:

Barrel length has virtually no effect on which powder to use to get the most velocity. I know it is commonly believed to be the case, but it just does not really work that way

Papi, in general, the more over bore, the lager the case capacity, and the higher the operating pressure, the greater the effect of barrel length on optimum powder choice.

In something like the .300 blackout, the case is realitively straight, and max pressure is listed at a mear 50763psi. So in the blackout barrel length has little effect on optimum powder selection for maximum velocity.


Move to something like a .264 Win Mag, and the difference is drastic:

Cartridge          : .264 Win. Mag.
Bullet             : .264, 140, Nosler AccuBond 39457
Useable Case Capaci: 74.854 grain H2O = 4.860 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 6.0 inch = 152.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61500 psi, or 424 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 108 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

28 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 60%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
Accurate 5744                       62.9     40.6     2.63    1617    98.9    61500   43630   0.566  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227                            65.8     41.6     2.69    1609    99.8    61500   42020   0.557  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198                       70.0     45.4     2.94    1608    95.1    61500   44833   0.563  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227                       65.8     41.5     2.69    1605    99.9    61500   42049   0.563  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198                            71.5     44.2     2.87    1604    98.6    61500   44210   0.568  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680                       61.1     45.4     2.94    1601    96.1    61500   44893   0.571  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200                       68.4     47.9     3.10    1594    92.3    61500   45982   0.577  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2205                         64.4     42.2     2.74    1594   100.0    61500   37868   0.550  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206                         76.8     52.4     3.40    1589    88.7    61500   45854   0.577  ! Near Maximum !
ADI BM2                             68.8     50.6     3.28    1588    90.9    61500   46012   0.580  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder- 7                  67.7     45.2     2.93    1588    98.2    61500   44244   0.580  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark                   74.8     50.8     3.29    1587    90.6    61500   46022   0.580  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210                         70.2     50.0     3.24    1586    90.6    61500   46282   0.583  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2207                         67.6     43.6     2.82    1586    99.7    61500   43451   0.582  ! Near Maximum !
Kazan Sunar 308W                    70.9     47.8     3.10    1585    97.2    61500   44301   0.581  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120                     69.8     44.0     2.85    1585   100.0    61500   41698   0.578  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130                     74.1     47.8     3.10    1584    97.4    61500   44427   0.582  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N133                     78.3     49.5     3.21    1584    96.1    61500   44957   0.583  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219                         68.4     48.8     3.16    1583    93.0    61500   46938   0.588  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322                        72.8     48.8     3.16    1583    93.0    61500   46938   0.588  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET                      81.0     54.1     3.50    1581    85.1    61500   47049   0.586  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208                         80.7     54.1     3.50    1581    85.1    61500   47049   0.586  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N110                     63.6     37.2     2.41    1580   100.0    61500   36786   0.558  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR                        74.8     51.6     3.34    1580    88.4    61500   47044   0.588  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12                  73.1     51.4     3.33    1579    93.5    61500   46028   0.588  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator                67.2     49.6     3.22    1579    93.0    61500   46679   0.590  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320                            79.8     54.1     3.51    1579    84.9    61500   47698   0.589  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530                     73.1     50.7     3.29    1578    88.4    61500   47324   0.591  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x                 71.0     46.2     2.99    1578    96.8    61500   45825   0.592  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4064                            81.3     53.0     3.43    1577    85.5    61500   47201   0.589  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant BLUE DOT                    60.4     33.9     2.20    1577   100.0    61500   34114   0.538  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335                        68.7     51.7     3.35    1574    91.4    61500   46986   0.593  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC                         71.5     52.8     3.42    1573    87.9    61500   47320   0.593  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17                  78.8     57.0     3.70    1571    81.8    61500   48821   0.595  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H                        75.7     52.3     3.39    1571    85.6    61500   47745   0.595  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N140                     77.9     52.7     3.42    1570    92.2    61500   46502   0.595  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895                       75.3     52.0     3.37    1569    86.3    61500   47849   0.597  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015                       72.1     48.1     3.12    1568    95.9    61500   45862   0.598  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350                       88.0     59.4     3.85    1568    77.3    61500   47342   0.592  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350                            86.3     59.3     3.84    1568    77.5    61500   47327   0.592  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202                           76.0     51.6     3.34    1567    91.3    61500   47106   0.598  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200                           64.2     45.9     2.97    1567    97.6    61500   45452   0.599  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209                         89.4     61.3     3.97    1567    72.7    61500   48289   0.595  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2700                       82.6     58.8     3.81    1565    79.1    61500   46153   0.591  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC                        81.3     56.9     3.69    1565    78.4    61500   47118   0.595  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748                      71.3     52.9     3.43    1565    87.7    61500   48144   0.600  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540                     78.1     54.5     3.53    1564    90.9    61500   46774   0.598  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213                         92.1     64.2     4.16    1563    68.5    61500   48674   0.597  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201                           73.5     51.9     3.36    1563    88.1    61500   47242   0.601  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160                     95.3     63.0     4.08    1563    73.2    61500   46912   0.593  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000                      100.8     68.8     4.46    1562    66.7    61500   48601   0.597  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AP 2214                         95.9     68.7     4.45    1562    66.7    61500   48639   0.597  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230                       70.0     51.8     3.35    1562    89.4    61500   46952   0.601  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204                           85.4     60.9     3.94    1562    73.6    61500   47904   0.596  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031                            76.7     49.5     3.21    1562    92.3    61500   48280   0.605  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15                  77.8     53.7     3.48    1562    83.8    61500   48151   0.601  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831                       94.9     63.6     4.12    1562    70.3    61500   47602   0.595  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC                    91.2     63.6     4.12    1562    70.3    61500   47602   0.595  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895                            77.0     53.1     3.44    1561    84.4    61500   48366   0.603  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B                          78.2     53.9     3.49    1560    84.5    61500   48134   0.603  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N135                     82.3     51.5     3.34    1558    93.8    61500   46915   0.605  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150                     86.0     56.0     3.63    1558    88.1    61500   46993   0.602  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame                     79.6     56.7     3.67    1558    83.0    61500   48367   0.603  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19                  89.8     61.9     4.01    1557    73.0    61500   48216   0.600  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC                        90.9     64.4     4.17    1555    67.5    61500   48986   0.602  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828                            96.1     64.4     4.17    1555    67.5    61500   48986   0.602  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380                        79.2     55.8     3.62    1555    81.6    61500   47897   0.605  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2218                        104.4     76.8     4.97    1554    53.5    61500   47654   0.598  ! Near Maximum !

Cartridge          : .264 Win. Mag.
Bullet             : .264, 140, Nosler AccuBond 39457
Useable Case Capaci: 74.854 grain H2O = 4.860 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch = 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm

Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 61500 psi, or 424 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 108 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !

28 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 60%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type          Filling/Loading Ratio  Charge    Charge   Vel. Prop.Burnt P max  P muzz  B_Time
                                      %     Grains    Gramm   fps     %       psi     psi    ms
---------------------------------  -----------------------------------------------------------------
ADI AR 2218                        104.4     76.8     4.97    3280    99.2    61500   16213   1.245  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N570                    100.1     72.8     4.72    3238    98.7    61500   15797   1.275  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-50                 106.3     79.4     5.14    3217    98.6    61500   15923   1.305  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H870                       106.2     75.7     4.90    3212    99.6    61500   15177   1.281  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Retumbo                    103.7     72.0     4.66    3194   100.0    61500   13708   1.267  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N560                     91.8     64.8     4.20    3169    99.9    61500   14115   1.271  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Magnum (Big Boy)            94.2     69.6     4.51    3165   100.0    61500   13797   1.273  ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP 2                         99.3     68.5     4.44    3165   100.0    61500   14004   1.286  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate MAGPRO                     92.1     67.6     4.38    3164    99.5    61500   14337   1.280  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828                            96.1     64.4     4.17    3159   100.0    61500   13653   1.261  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 7828 SSC                        90.9     64.4     4.17    3159   100.0    61500   13653   1.261  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AP 2214                         95.9     68.7     4.45    3152   100.0    61500   13373   1.256  ! Near Maximum !
Norma MRP                           90.0     64.8     4.20    3152   100.0    61500   13479   1.281  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H1000                      100.8     68.8     4.46    3150   100.0    61500   13337   1.256  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2213                         92.1     64.2     4.16    3149   100.0    61500   13572   1.257  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 24N41                   103.2     75.9     4.92    3146    94.5    61500   14626   1.261  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-25                  97.0     66.6     4.32    3142   100.0    61500   12978   1.276  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-22                  92.2     64.3     4.17    3137   100.0    61500   13403   1.277  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester WXR                      94.6     64.6     4.19    3136   100.0    61500   13431   1.277  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon US 869                     108.0     79.4     5.14    3123    94.3    60831   14618   1.282  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon 50BMG                      108.0     75.7     4.90    3121    90.6    60184   14857   1.282  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2209                         89.4     61.3     3.97    3106   100.0    61500   12803   1.260  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-19                  89.8     61.9     4.01    3102   100.0    61500   12848   1.267  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831 SC                    91.2     63.6     4.12    3092    99.9    61500   12927   1.263  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4831                       94.9     63.6     4.12    3092    99.9    61500   12927   1.263  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N170                    103.7     70.8     4.59    3089    97.7    61500   13632   1.287  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 760                      80.8     59.0     3.82    3085   100.0    61500   12377   1.274  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H414                        80.8     59.0     3.82    3085   100.0    61500   12377   1.274  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 204                           85.4     60.9     3.94    3084   100.0    61500   12582   1.265  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot Hunter                      85.5     61.0     3.95    3079   100.0    61500   12303   1.275  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester Supreme 780              88.9     64.7     4.19    3058   100.0    61500   12269   1.275  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-17                  78.8     57.0     3.70    3055   100.0    61500   11652   1.264  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N550                     82.8     58.4     3.78    3053   100.0    61500   11944   1.283  ! Near Maximum !
Norma URP                           85.1     58.1     3.77    3051   100.0    61500   11806   1.281  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N160                     95.3     63.0     4.08    3048   100.0    61500   12203   1.267  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N165                     94.8     64.7     4.19    3047   100.0    61500   11983   1.280  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori 20N29                   108.0     80.2     5.20    3045    95.3    54998   14473   1.353  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4350                       88.0     58.1     3.76    3043   100.0    61500   11750   1.301  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4350                       88.0     59.4     3.85    3043   100.0    61500   11850   1.265  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4350                            86.3     59.3     3.84    3041   100.0    61500   11819   1.265  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 3100                       97.8     63.8     4.13    3033   100.0    61500   11811   1.308  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4831                            89.3     59.0     3.82    3031   100.0    61500   11554   1.291  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4007 SSC                        81.3     56.9     3.69    3027   100.0    61500   11714   1.271  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot BigGame                     79.6     56.7     3.67    3026   100.0    61500   11415   1.277  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H380                        79.2     55.8     3.62    3020   100.0    61500   11459   1.281  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4895                            77.0     53.1     3.44    3019   100.0    61500   11329   1.278  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-15                  77.8     53.7     3.48    3017   100.0    61500   11303   1.277  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203B                          78.2     53.9     3.49    3009   100.0    61500   11213   1.280  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206H                        75.7     52.3     3.39    3000   100.0    61500   11067   1.273  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4320                            79.8     54.1     3.51    3000   100.0    61500   10952   1.265  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Hybrid 100V                 90.4     58.3     3.78    2999   100.0    61500   10938   1.284  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4895                       75.3     52.0     3.37    2995   100.0    61500   11000   1.275  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon VARGET                      81.0     54.1     3.50    2992   100.0    61500   10993   1.263  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2208                         80.7     54.1     3.50    2992   100.0    61500   10993   1.263  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon BL-C2                       73.4     55.3     3.58    2992   100.0    61500   11049   1.287  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 203 old                       79.0     55.1     3.57    2989   100.0    61500   11022   1.297  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2700                       82.6     58.8     3.81    2984   100.0    61500   11124   1.274  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 8700                      108.0     76.3     4.94    2982    96.5    51023   13866   1.382
IMR 4064                            81.3     53.0     3.43    2982   100.0    61500   10789   1.268  ! Near Maximum !
Winchester 748                      71.3     52.9     3.43    2979   100.0    61500   10707   1.280  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC                         71.5     52.8     3.42    2970   100.0    61500   10680   1.274  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N530                     73.1     50.7     3.29    2967   100.0    61500   10614   1.271  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 8208 XBR                        74.8     51.6     3.34    2961   100.0    61500   10517   1.270  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 201                           73.5     51.9     3.36    2956   100.0    61500   10575   1.285  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2520                       74.9     53.2     3.45    2947   100.0    61500   10405   1.300  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N150                     86.0     56.0     3.63    2940   100.0    61500   10388   1.289  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 3031                            76.7     49.5     3.21    2937   100.0    61500   10200   1.290  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2206                         76.8     52.4     3.40    2936   100.0    61500   10252   1.263  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335                        68.7     51.7     3.35    2934   100.0    61500   10269   1.280  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 4064                       81.9     52.8     3.42    2932   100.0    61500   10348   1.317  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N540                     78.1     54.5     3.53    2932   100.0    61500   10395   1.286  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2460                       70.9     52.5     3.40    2931   100.0    61500   10223   1.295  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 202                           76.0     51.6     3.34    2930   100.0    61500   10239   1.286  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210                         70.2     50.0     3.24    2929   100.0    61500   10159   1.269  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2230                       70.0     51.8     3.35    2925   100.0    61500   10115   1.290  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon Benchmark                   74.8     50.8     3.29    2925   100.0    61500   10113   1.267  ! Near Maximum !
ADI BM2                             68.8     50.6     3.28    2923   100.0    61500   10093   1.267  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322                        72.8     48.8     3.16    2920   100.0    61500   10010   1.275  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219                         68.4     48.8     3.16    2920   100.0    61500   10010   1.275  ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator                67.2     49.6     3.22    2917   100.0    61500   10036   1.279  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200                       68.4     47.9     3.10    2912   100.0    61500    9905   1.265  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N140                     77.9     52.7     3.42    2903   100.0    61500    9892   1.286  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2495                       76.1     49.7     3.22    2900   100.0    61500    9981   1.323  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-12                  73.1     51.4     3.33    2893   100.0    61500    9797   1.280  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N135                     82.3     51.5     3.34    2883   100.0    61500    9638   1.300  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198                       70.0     45.4     2.94    2867   100.0    61500    9313   1.257  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x                 71.0     46.2     2.99    2863   100.0    61500    9487   1.290  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680                       61.1     45.4     2.94    2862   100.0    61500    9365   1.266  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2015                       72.1     48.1     3.12    2855   100.0    61500    9387   1.297  ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744                       62.9     40.6     2.63    2844   100.0    61500    9317   1.265  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N133                     78.3     49.5     3.21    2842   100.0    61500    9178   1.283  ! Near Maximum !
Norma 200                           64.2     45.9     2.97    2837   100.0    61500    9250   1.302  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198                            71.5     44.2     2.87    2828   100.0    61500    9000   1.269  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N130                     74.1     47.8     3.10    2827   100.0    61500    9090   1.286  ! Near Maximum !
Kazan Sunar 308W                    70.9     47.8     3.10    2826   100.0    61500    9082   1.284  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder- 7                  67.7     45.2     2.93    2823   100.0    61500    9056   1.284  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2207                         67.6     43.6     2.82    2796   100.0    61500    8871   1.292  ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227                            65.8     41.6     2.69    2778   100.0    61500    8561   1.268  ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227                       65.8     41.5     2.69    2774   100.0    61500    8556   1.274  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120                     69.8     44.0     2.85    2748   100.0    61500    8373   1.296  ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2205                         64.4     42.2     2.74    2686   100.0    61500    7947   1.281  ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N110                     63.6     37.2     2.41    2651   100.0    61500    7639   1.298  ! Near Maximum !
Alliant BLUE DOT                    60.4     33.9     2.20    2607   100.0    61500    7411   1.288  ! Near Maximum !

Notice how the top powder with the 6" barrel, Accurate 5744, drops to 92nd place with the 26" barrel.

If we just look at the Alliant powders that scored best in each barrel, we see that in the 6" it was RL-7, a realitively fast powder.

In the 26: barrel it was RL50, the slowest powder they make.

In the above example, (79.4gr of RL50, w. 140gr NAB) maximum pressure is reaches at about 3" of projectile movement, however, at the point of maximum pressure, velocity is only 1500 fps. Velocity continues in increase along the length of the barrel. Since the .264 is a large capacity, overbore cartridge, that large powder volume is able to continue gaining advantage of the slower burning powder for a longer period of time. When the bullet exits the barrel with the RL50 load, only 98.7% of the powder is burned.


With the Accurate 5744, Maximum pressure is reached at 1 3/4 of projectile movement, and all the powder is burn at 5 1/4" of projectile movement. This is why the 5744 performs so will in the short 6" barrel vs the RL50.

In a 6" barrel on 52% of the RL50 is burnt at the time the bullet exits the barrel, where 100% of the 5744 just finished burning.

So, to say barrel length make little difference on power selction may be true for the .300 ACC blackout, but to say it makes no difference for all gun is just not true.

Thanks for the info Antelope Sniper.. I also located some additional info.

Barrel Length Comparisons (4"-24"): page # 28
http://300aacblackout.com/resources/300-BLK.pdf

PAPI

Your welcome Papi.

Nice write up on the Blackout. I think I've decided there is one in my future.

You mentioned how you thougt it was possible to get more out of the rifle. I've felt the same way. Most published ballistics are with a short barrel, and a realitively low operating pressure of 50k PSI.

Standard Pressure for a SAAMI .223 is 58k, and 62k psi for the 5.56 Nato.

With QL, 125gr NBT, and a 20" barrel, here are the max velocities projected at various pressures.

50k: 2373
58K: 2475
62K: 2520

At 58K you are very close to the projected velocity fm a 30-30 with the same bullet (just for demonstration purposes, we all know not to load pointed bullets in a tublar magazine) out of a 20" barrel of 2457fps.

So, with a longer barrel, and an operating pressure similar to the SAAMI .223, it appreas possible to achive performance identical to the 30-30. Of course I've never played with one at these pressues, so I've have to work up VERY carefully, and see if the gun started to tell me there was an unforseen reason for the low pressures.

Maybe someone with one knows, and can enlighten us?

I'm not the most knowledgeable person ( Master of none) But .. I do my homework (research) before jumping into anything

Just an additional " FYI " for handloaders playing with,or near max pressure loads, in an " AR ".

After reading a few years back " Zedikers Book The Competitive AR15 "
http://www.zediker.com/books/ar2/ARII_main.html

I picked up one of the below items.. It was a very simple drop-in, and I never had any problems using it

Tubb Precision AR-15 Carrier Weight System
http://www.davidtubb.com/ar-15-carrier-weight-system

PAPI
Burbank Rifle & Revolver Club: Life Member

I like it.

I'll have to put that on the wishlist as well.

Don't forget to order a new " Buffer Spring ", as well
http://www.davidtubb.com/ar-15...both-carbine-and-std

PAPI