Zedo, you show as much intelligence here as you do in the political forums, which is zip, nada, zero.

quote:

Originally posted by Zedo:
AK Beats AR Hands Down!

This one's been beat to death. But a Military Rifle Forum needs to have one in the archives. Sorta like having a bottle opener in the bar.

In "the Nam" the .223 from Stoner would be bouncing off the leaves and grass in the jungle while Charlie's rounds would be dropping limbs, trees, dead monkeys and snakes on the US troops.

AR needs to be clean like a watch to be reliable. AK runs full of mud, and you can wash it out in a ditch to keep it working.

AR needs a manual and some training. AK can be figured out by peasants without instruction.

AK is cheap, simple to build. Nothing about the AR is cheap or simple.

-- OK, carry on . . .

Zedo, it sounds to me like you are comparing cartridge, rather than weapon, performance.

Granted, the 5.56mm round as issued in RVN was not as good in thick underbrush as the 7.62X39mm round! But it seems to me that the Russians have switched cartridges too, and are no longer issuing the 7.62X39mm rifles, but are issuing a 5.4mm (.22) as well. In addition, they are making their bullets light in the nose to insure tumbling on impact, thus making the current Russian ammo no better than what we had in 'Nam!

quote:

Originally posted by Edmond:
The asssault rifle concept was a French idea originating in 1917.

The Ribeyrolle 1918 was a precursor of the more modern assault rifles,
it was a machine carbine using an intermediate round with a select fire capability.







The Mle 1918 Ribeyrolle machine carbine was a select fire,
direct blowback system firing the 8x35 Ribeyrolle cartridge (necked down .351 case with a 8mm AP bullet).

The new weapon was tested by the Army and abandonned in 1921, the maximum effective range of the cartridge (< 400M) was deemed insufficient compared to the 7.5 caliber ammunition being developped for use in semi auto rifle and light LMG.

I cannot think that the need for such a weapon occurred first to a Freenchman, but perhaps it did.

Rather, I believe that the need for something along the lines of an assault rifle (or machine pistol) was a case of parallel thinking brought about by the conditions of trench warfare on the Western Front, and resulted in such things as the rifle you describe, the submachine gun of the Germans in WWI, and the Pedersen Device produced by the U.S.

In addition, despite your assertion that the 7.5X54mm round was introduced by France for a semi-auto rifle & LMG (which may have been the ultimate intended use), I must point out that France chambered another bolt-action rifle for the round as late as 1936 (MAS 36), when the U.S. was about to field the Garand....... (Why did France wait until AFTER the 1940 disaster before introducing a semi-auto rifle??)

Not exact, have a look https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/...=316109667#316109667

I used both extensively and i prefer an m4 in6.8spc or 7.62 but i can go with the m4 with a good holosigth.
Iused the ak47 and i dindt like the trigger,accuracy,and ergonomics,i shoot a lot faster with the m4 and that in cqb is essencial ,I CHOOSE AN M4 WITH A 14 INCHES BARREL NOT MORE.
I believe we are speacking in a security contractor work or similar .Juan

All alone in the woods...and what rifle...? Pretty easy, an m70 bolt gun in .308 milled for stripper clips w/ large aperture rear, post front, and a BRIGHT low power scope w/ German 4A reticle in Talley QR rings/bases. Since I'm all alone, hide and evade would be the rule during daylight, LATE afternoons or nights w/ anything more than 1/4 moon would be my hunting ground. Single shots kills can easily be made out to 200 yards against medium backgrounds and farther against light terrain, and it would be single shots to prevent detection cause I'm all alone. The rifle doesn't have many parts, it can be stripped with an allen wrench or screwdriver, fired either dry or lubed with a touch of grease off your face.

However, all this is hypothetical because when I was of age, I didn't get drafted or volunteer, and my experience is totally restricted to culling deer/hogs and a couple of African/Argentinian safaris. To those who did serve, THANK YOU. I can never repay you.

And in a final note, if anyone's interested in asking this question of someone who really knows the answer, come to South Carolina for the 4th Annual SCI Lowcountry Chapter Wheelchair and Wounded Warrior Deer Hunt. The commanding General of Parris Island, AND Major Edward J. Land, (USMC ret.) will be there. Wd could use always use a few more folks to help and thank these wounded warriors. www.scilowcountry.org

Clint

or preferably HK416.

Got to agree with you there 500.

That thing is damn near perfect.

I would take that into a jungle over an ak

Much of this is about the round.

Past 300 yards you want a sniper and a sniper rig imho.

with urban combat and CQC you want a bigger bullet.

the 35 cal on the 6.5 Grendel case is my idea of this round. see sigline pic of the "358 Gremlin" designed to double stack in an AR.

The Russian version is the 9x39 designed to be an accurate longer range subsonic round.

With the 358 Gremlin you can do accurate long range subsonic or "whack a mole" out to 300 yards all with a change in ammo. 310 grain woodleighs to 100 grain pistol bullets is a helova range.

In the pic you can see a 225 grain balistic tip and a 180 grain Hornady 358 bullets.

Twenty-some years ago I shot an HK G-3 in Kenya, which I found to be an outstanding weapon. It left a very favorable impression on me.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Twenty-some years ago I shot an HK G-3 in Kenya, which I found to be an outstanding weapon. It left a very favorable impression on me.

G3s are nice

I'm a little late on the discussion here, but....

I have a Mak-90(China made AK) with the 16.5" bbl. With surplus ammo it is not very accurate at all on the 100 yd range. With Lapua ammo it is a whole nother story. From a bench with the stock open sights I could hold consistant 1.25-1.5" groups at 100 yards.
This was done around 1996. I don't know if the current ammo does the same.

So have the AK no accuracy preachers tried different ammo and given it a real test?

I tried putting a scope on mine with one of those side mounts that used the hammer and trigger pins. The groups opened up to 3" with the same ammo. So it needs a better scope mount. Are there any good ones out now?

I was always told that battle rifles were not meant to be accurate.
As long as we were able to hit the torso that was fine.
Nobody ever said you were suppose to shoot the coin out of the enemys hand.