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quote:
Originally posted by TCLouis:
Would you please post the barrel length on each of the tables?
Will this be assembled into a spreadsheet when you finish the testing?


Why? He stated that he started with a 24.25" barrel and would cut off an inch for each test.
 
Posts: 8926 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Landy,

Can you give more more information on the machine rest you posted above?

The one which has YOUNG printed on it.

Can this one be used with different actions?

Any idea of the cost?

Also, what is the software - and hardware - that you use to give you the print outs you posted.

Any feedback would be much appreciated.


Hi Saeed,

Butch gave you a good answer and I agree with his post. If you go to the link he provided, the suggested price is $2,500 but the biggest problem is getting one because they're in high demand. I think I waited almost 2 years when I ordered mine quite a few years ago.

They're called rail-guns and I have two of them.
The Young pictured has round Delrin bushings that fit the circular bore of the barrel block and the diameter of the barrel.

My other rail-gun was built by Scott Hunter (Magnum Metal).
www.benchrest.com/magnummetal/
It utilizes a V-block arrangement for clamping the barrel, and with the appropriate shims will accomodate a variety of barrel diameters without resorting to fabricating bushings for all the different diameters.

I've also seen a lot of rails that mount the action instead of the barrel, but there's far less of them.

I use "OnTarget TDS" to gather point data and then I export the point data to my customized Excel spreadsheets for analysis. TDS also some very useful features for measuring groups, as well as a few other features that provide benefits.
"OnTarget" link:
https://ontargetshooting.com/ontarget-tds/

The Excel spreadsheets I've written that do the bulk of the work aren't available to the public. I've spent many years and hundreds of hours creating them and just can't bring myself to share them. Besides, they're so complex that only a mathematician, statistician, or engineer at a manufacturer of firearm components could understand them anyway.

Landy


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Posts: 30 | Location: Nebraska | Registered: 25 August 2007Reply With Quote
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Landy,

Thank you for the links, I appreciate your help.

I have downloaded the software and try it once I have set up a scanner.

On the rests I will get a friend of mine in the US to look for one.

I prefer one where I can change actions, rather than one where we have to make adaptors for each one.

We can do that but we like to take the easy way out.


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Dwight recommends we get a Young, so that is what we will order.


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Got fantastic news from Dwight this mornings.

He located a brand new Young machine and is having it shipped immediately! clap

And for those who know Dwight, he asked what we will use it for for.

We told him "we are going to develop accuracy loads for our 700 Nitro Express!

"OH JEEZ" came back the answer! rotflmo

Trying to persuade him to come on safari again.

We had great fun hunting together a few times.

Dwight is one of those guys who haven't a single mean bone in his body.

An absolutely great guy.


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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This is the format we are going to use.

I think all the relevant information is displayed.

We are down to 16.75 inches now.







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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Got fantastic news from Dwight this mornings.

He located a brand new Young machine and is having it shipped immediately! clap

And for those who know Dwight, he asked what we will use it for for.

We told him "we are going to develop accuracy loads for our 700 Nitro Express!

"OH JEEZ" came back the answer! rotflmo

Trying to persuade him to come on safari again.

We had great fun hunting together a few times.

Dwight is one of those guys who haven't a single mean bone in his body.

An absolutely great guy.


Wow, when you put your mind to something, it gets done quick!

You may want to give Jay a call and ask him how his rail will handle the recoil of that 700 Nitro! LOL

Good Luck,
Landy


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Posts: 30 | Location: Nebraska | Registered: 25 August 2007Reply With Quote
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Saeed, You are right about Dwight. He built a fine BR rifle for me in days past and has done a few other things for me. He is as good as you will find!
 
Posts: 8926 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With Quote
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Had a long chat with Dwight this evening.

I think I might have managed to convince him to go hunting with us again!

We have to think of a few tricks to keep him on his toes! clap


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Had a long chat with Dwight this evening.

I think I might have managed to convince him to go hunting with us again!

We have to think of a few tricks to keep him on his toes! clap


Keep him safe from the little bittig bugs.
 
Posts: 8926 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With Quote
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The Young rail gun rest has arrived at Todd's, and he sent me some photos of it.

Looks great in burnt orange.

Glad it was not pink, as Walter has a sign here that says NO PINK STUFF!

Landy,

You have asked if I fired fouling shots, and I mistakenly told you that I did not.

Well, I have not been firing fouling shot as such, but in actually fact I have!

What happens is that once I fire groups with a specific ammo, I fire a few rounds of the new ammo to be tested to get the shots on target.

These range from 3-5 shots of most ammo, except the ultra velocity types like the CCI Stinger and Fiocchi Ultrasoni.

These I might need up to 10 shots to get them right, especially at 100 yards.

So fouling shots are fired before each type of ammo is tested.

I am really excited about the rest.

I have never used one.

Todd is coming over next month, and he is just as excited to try it too.

My wife normally has a difficult time extricating us from the shooting range for dinner, and I suspect this family tradition is going to continue! clap


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
The Young rail gun rest has arrived at Todd's, and he sent me some photos of it.

Looks great in burnt orange.

Glad it was not pink, as Walter has a sign here that says NO PINK STUFF!

Landy,

You have asked if I fired fouling shots, and I mistakenly told you that I did not.

Well, I have not been firing fouling shot as such, but in actually fact I have!

What happens is that once I fire groups with a specific ammo, I fire a few rounds of the new ammo to be tested to get the shots on target.

These range from 3-5 shots of most ammo, except the ultra velocity types like the CCI Stinger and Fiocchi Ultrasoni.

These I might need up to 10 shots to get them right, especially at 100 yards.

So fouling shots are fired before each type of ammo is tested.

I am really excited about the rest.

I have never used one.

Todd is coming over next month, and he is just as excited to try it too.

My wife normally has a difficult time extricating us from the shooting range for dinner, and I suspect this family tradition is going to continue! clap


Saeed,

Thanks for the info on the foulers.

Can't wait to see your Young and I hope (bet) you have fun with it.

Landy


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Posts: 30 | Location: Nebraska | Registered: 25 August 2007Reply With Quote
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Here is an updated list of the velocities we are getting, with the specified barrel length.
Amazing relatively little change in 10 inch barrel change??!!


I thought I might check the velocities of these ammo in a revolver, and have in a COLT TROOPER III with a six inch barrel.
I have added these to the list below.


ELEY SPORT
24.75 INCH BARREL 1015 FPS
23.75 1081 FPS
22.75 1084 FPS
21.75 1047 FPS
20.75 1099 fps
19.75 1086 fps
18.75 1087 fps
17.75 1064 fps
16.75 1052 fps
15.75 1052 fps
14.50 1050 fps
13.50 1048 FPS
12.50 1060 FPS
11.50 1019 FPS
10.00 1041 FPS


6" TROOPER 909 FPS


SK STANDARD
24.75 INCH BARREL 1028 FPS
23.75 1033 FPS
22.75 1042 FPS
21.75 1059 FPS
20.75 1051 fps
19.75 1062 fps
18.75 1042 fps
17.75 1053 fps
16.75 1049 fps
15.75 1057 fps
14.50 1059 fps
13.50 1049 FPS
12.50 1059 FPS
11.50 1046 FPS
10.00 1036 FPS


6" TROOPER 929 FPS

CCI STINGER
24.75 INCH BARREL 1545 FPS
23.75 1543 FPS
22.75 1558 FPS
21.75 1546 FPS
20.75 1539 fps
19.75 1626 fps
18.75 1612 fps
17.75 1592 fps
16.75 1599 fps
15.75 1588 fps
14.50 1589 fps
13.50 1584 FPS
12.50 1571 FPS
11.50 1569 FPS
10.00 1525 FPS


6"TROOPER 1201 FPS

FIOCCHI ULTRASONIC
24.75 INCH BARREL 1272 FPS
23.75 1239 FPS
22.75 1259 FPS
21.75 1294 FPS
20.75 1262 fps
19.75 1262 fps
18.75 1237 fps
17.75 1230 fps
16.75 1213 fps
15.75 1244 fps
14.50 1240 fps
13.50 1240 FPS
12.50 1218 FPS
11.50 1182 FPS
10.00 1167 FPS


6"TROOPER 897 FPS

ELEY CONTACT
24.75 INCH BARREL 1074 FPS
23.75 1067 FPS
22.75 1070 FPS
21.75 1071 FPS
20.75 1076 fps
19.75 1079 fps
18.75 1080 fps
17.75 1073 fps
16.75 1075 fps
15.75 1080 fps
14.50 1086 fps
13.50 1081 FPS
12.50 1084 FPS
11.50 1076 FPS
10.00 1074 FPS


6" TROOPER 981 FPS

FIOCCHI SUBSONIC
24.75 INCH BARREL 1026 FPS
23.75 1027 FPS
22.75 1043 FPS
21.75 1061 FPS
20.75 1038 fps
19.75 1048 fps
18.75 1037 fps
17.75 1047 fps
16.75 1050 fps
15.75 1055 fps
14.50 1046 fps
13.50 1050 FPS
12.50 1047 FPS
11.50 1044 FPS
10.00 1020 FPS


6" TROOPER 921 FPS

ELEY FORCE
24.75 INCH BARREL 1173 FPS
23.75 1188 FPS
22.75 1198 FPS
21.75 1191 FPS
20.75 1155 fps
19.75 1193 fps
18.75 1151 fps
17.75 1184 fps
16.75 1196 fps
15.75 1183 fps
14.50 1118 fps
13.50 1177 FPS
12.50 1188 FPS
11.50 1174 FPS
10.00 1164 FPS


6" TROOPER 1030 FPS

CCI MINI MAG
24.75 INCH BARREL 1192 FPS
23.75 1213 FPS
22.75 1222 FPS
21.75 1228 FPS
20.75 1220 fps
19.75 1229 fps
18.75 1214 fps
17.75 1204 fps
16.75 1215 fps
15.75 1217 fps
14.50 1210 fps
13.50 1199 FPS
12.50 1218 FPS
11.50 1195 FPS
10.00 1187 FPS


6" TROOPER 1064 FPS

ELEY TENEX
24.75 INCH BARREL 1052 FPS
23.75 1066 FPS
22.75 1074 FPS
21.75 1061 FPS
20.75 1095 fps
19.75 1062 fps
18.75 1071 fps
17.75 1060 fps
16.75 1047 fps
15.75 1060 fps
14.50 1050 fps
13.50 1059 FPS
12.50 1058 FPS
11.50 1052 FPS
10.00 1047 FPS


6" TROOPER 961 FPS

LAPUA MIDAS PLUS
24.75 INCH BARREL 1045 FPS
23.75 1055 FPS
22.75 1084 FPS
21.75 1084 FPS
20.75 1111 fps
19.75 1072 fps
18.75 1106 fps
17.75 1105 fps
16.75 1085 fps
15.75 1106 fps
14.50 1110 fps
13.50 1023 FPS
12.50 1032 FPS
11.50 987 FPS
10.00 1065 FPS


6" TROOPER 823 FPS


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Very interesting, thanks for doing this.

It pretty much looks like the optimum barrel length seems to be in the 19-20 inch range. That makes me like my 20 inch Marlin 39M Mountie even more. Plus is always been pretty accurate to boot.


Roger
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Posts: 2604 | Location: Washington (wetside) | Registered: 08 February 2005Reply With Quote
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Amazing is in it?

With center fire each inch means something, here not so much.

I think we can go down to 7 inches.

Should be fun with a scope longer the rifle!! clap


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Got some very weird velocity results from Lapua Midas Plus.

The shots were spread vertically, so I disregarded that test, and got a new box of ammo and set the chronograph to measure the velocity at the same time.

Sure enough, some shots were landing several inches lower, and their velocity is very low!!

I have deceided to keep this test, as the velocity drop was from 2 separate boxes!!

To give you an idea of the velocities.

High was 1044 and low was 947!!


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This is our Young rest.

Fantastic workmanship!












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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Typical Jay Young top QUALITY. You will really have fun with it.
If you use "delrin" bushings to hold your barrel, split them.
 
Posts: 8926 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With Quote
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We have lots of notes of advice from Dwight.

We have already got the required aluminum blocks and delrin to make the required fittings for our rifles.

Any of you knows what is the largest cartridge rifle we can use in this?? clap


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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By the way, we are well past 15,000 rounds in this test!!?


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
We have lots of notes of advice from Dwight.

We have already got the required aluminum blocks and delrin to make the required fittings for our rifles.

Any of you knows what is the largest cartridge rifle we can use in this?? clap


It is so smooth that without bungie cords to limit the recoil, a 308 might be too much. Maybe you could mount an air cylinder to handle the recoil.
 
Posts: 8926 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With Quote
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We have some geniuses here with a combined IQ of less than 10 who are working overtime to see how they can make this work for the 577 T. Rex and the 700 Nitro Express.

They don't listen to what I tell them that anyone even touching this rest without my permission is going to be shot!

The good thing is they actually believe me.

We have several computers in the shooting range, and one is specifically mine.

No one, repeat NO ONE is allowed to touch.

One day I found Walter sitting on my place.

"Walter, get off that chair"

"Why?"

"Because I do not want you there. And do not touch my computer"

Walter being Walter, he looked at me with a big smile on his face, and his fingers poised over the keyboard, and said "what will you do?"

"I will shoot your hands off"

He would not budge, and kept pretending to type on the keyboard, his fingers getting closer and closer.

I got an air pistol, and loaded it.

"You better get off there"

There was an empty Coke can on my desk right in front of him.

"The pistol is not loaded. You would not shoot your best friend"

I shot the can.

Walter jumped off my chair, screaming "OH SHIT! I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN YOU ARE SERIOUS!"

I have a printed sign on the back of my chair that says IF YOU SIT HERE YOU WILL BE SHOT!

The kids love it, and take photos of it to show their parents! clap


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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This is going to look funny with the scope longer than the rifle!


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Landy,

In the photo of your Young rest, you have a different scope mount mount.

Any special reasons why you are not using the rail installed on the rest?


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Getting fascinating groups now with CCI Stinger.

Looks more like shotgun pattern! clap


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
Landy,

In the photo of your Young rest, you have a different scope mount mount.

Any special reasons why you are not using the rail installed on the rest?

Saeed,

Both of my rail-guns have dual optical mounts so I can test scopes.

I'll mount two scopes and sight them both in on the same POA. I then simulate recoil with a rubber mallet and observe if each scope still has the same POA. I'll do this through a range of adjustments on very small grids at the target and record the results.
The very most important attribute of a scope for the serious tester and dedicated BR competitor is that the scope holds it POA while shooting a series of shots and most would probably be surprised at how many scopes fail this test. Not that big of a deal with a plinking or hunting rifle, but the kiss of death with a Nationally competitive BR rig!

With a CF there's no need for the rubber mallet because the recoil force is great enough to do the same job, but when I'm testing RF in a heavy rig like a rail-gun the mallet is needed to impart an adequate amount of g-force to the scopes I'm testing.

And, speaking of recoil, I think Butch is correct that even a 308 might be too much. You could possibly bolt the base of the Young to your bench, but it's the top of the Young that's the problem because it's lighter and just sits atop the Delrin and steel points it rides on.

There shouldn't be much muzzle flip since the barreled action won't have a lower center of gravity as it would when in a conventional stock, but even a 308 will have approximately 20 ft/lbs of recoil force and will be moving the top rearward at around 12 fps.
What happens after the top hits the stops while it's recoiling is anyone's guess, but it'll probably be tough on the rest, and in the case of your 700 Nitro the top/barreled action is likely to end up in the next room. LOL

What you typically see used with very heavy recoiling barreled actions are massive machine rests like those employed by Sierra bullets and others of the like. I'm not knowledgeable enough to give you any suggestions and I'm afraid you're on your own.

BTW, your Young is gorgeous and I can't wait to hear how your testing goes with it.

Good luck,
Landy


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Posts: 30 | Location: Nebraska | Registered: 25 August 2007Reply With Quote
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Landy,

Thank you for your answer.

I think we will stick to the usual “rests” we normally use for the larger calibers.

You can see some of these in action in the following thread.

577 T.Rex human rests!


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Saeed, I presume that the barrels were not 're-crowned' after every 1 inch chop?

Do you think this would have had any appreciable effect on the results? Thanks.


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Posts: 1229 | Location: London, UK | Registered: 02 April 2010Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by PD999:
Saeed, I presume that the barrels were not 're-crowned' after every 1 inch chop?

Do you think this would have had any appreciable effect on the results? Thanks.


Yes we recrowned the barrel after each piece was cut.

The same 30 degrees - I think - cutter we use on our barrels sometimes.

The ultra velocity ammo like CCI Stinger is shooting bloody awful now.

Some groups look like a shotgun pastern!


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Our Young rest has arrived this morning.

Have not unpacked it yet, as I am trying to finish the barrel chopping test before our friends arrive in April.

And I am going to be away later this month for a while too.

Will let you all know how things progress.


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Well, I could not resist it.

I did unpack it, and what a work of art it is.

I went and got smallish cake baking tins, and cast some lead weights to put on the bottom of it.

My young cousin, Maktoum, promised to paint these to match the color of the rest.

I am assuming this was designed for the 6mm PPC, so with that cartridge it should work with no additional resistance.

I am going to the sports store tomorrow and look at the resistance rubber bands they sell.

May be I need to use these for something like a 308 Winchester.

Only instructions I got was to clean the tail, and apply some fine oil.

Any other suggestions would be much appreciated.


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Sounds like you know exactly what to do. I'm anxious to see how it performs for you.
 
Posts: 8926 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Saeed:
quote:
Originally posted by PD999:

Saeed, I presume that the barrels were not 're-crowned' after every 1 inch chop?

Do you think this would have had any appreciable effect on the results? Thanks.
Yes we recrowned the barrel after each piece was cut.

The same 30 degrees - I think - cutter we use on our barrels sometimes.
Wow, that's a lot of work Saeed. Far better than any of the other 'barrel chop' studies I've come across. These results will be fascinating.


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Posts: 1229 | Location: London, UK | Registered: 02 April 2010Reply With Quote
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We are getting quite a bit of vertical strings now, especially from ammo that varies in velocity.

Funny really, as I have had shots from a 22-243 Middlestead, going at well over 4,000 fps, have velocity variations of over 100 feet a second, but still groups into 0.3" or less.



Just weighed the two parts of our Young rest.

Top is 24.57 pounds
Bottom is 37 pounds

so total as is it weighs 61.61 pounds!


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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I have a brand new Walther KK 200 I was given, and thought this might be a good candidate for our Young rest to test in.


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As you can see, we are down to 11.50 inches now.

I ran the velocity check and posted them.

I am going away for a couple of weeks, so decided to setup and test our Young machine rest.

I put the Walther KK 200 in it, cleaned the barrel, and shot a few rounds to get it on target.

Scope is a Leupold 8.5-25X.

I might do a quick test on the ammo we have here in the range, just to get a feel for it.

Will let you know how things progress.


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Fired 5 shot groups with various types of ammo, nothing to be impressed with at all!

Just what I thought about 22 rim fire ammo.

I will post the results once I am done.

I am very impressed with this rest.

Has all the adjustments one could wish for.

I am using a spirit level to make sure it is level as I adjust the elevation.


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Posts: 61596 | Location: Dubai, UAE | Registered: 08 January 1998Reply With Quote
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Saeed,

Once again, thousands of thanks for this test.

I have a question about the Lapua Midas Plus with the large variation in velocity. Have you tried this same ammo (same lot, perhaps same box) in another target rifle of normal barrel length? And will you please share the lot # with us?

I ask in hope because I purchased two cases before the California ammo ban. Thanks.
 
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tu2 tu2 tu2
 
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Sorry about the delay in finishing this test.

Have been a bit busy with all sorts of things, but hopefully will be able to finish at least the shooting soon.

We are down to 10 inches now, and might probably be able to take 3 or 4 inches more off.


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