Years ago, we ran a test on the 223 Remington with progressively shorter barrels.

The results are below.

223 Remington with progressively shorter barrel

We thought of doing the same with a 22 long rifle.

We have a BRNO 452-5E, which has a few dents on the stock but by the looks of things it has not been shot very much.

My intention is to do a comprehensive test at both 100 and 50 yards.

I will use a selection of ammo, normal standard velocity, high velocity, subsonic, match and ultra high velocity.

I will check both accuracy and velocity differences.

This is going to take sometime, but I will keep you all updated on our progress.

First order of business is to adjust the trigger, it is a bit scratchy.

Should be interesting.

Yes, I never realized how much shooting this is going to require!!?

The rifle has a 24.75 inch barrel.

My intention is to cut 18 inches off in one inch increments!

Shooting will be 5, 10-shot groups.

I have removed the open sights.

I have adjusted the trigger, and installed a Bushnell 6-24X scope on it.

I am going to check my ammo store and select the ammo. It seems I would need 1,800 of each type for the test!!!?

For the high velocity, ELEY FORCE and CCI MINI MAG

Standard, SK STANDARD and ELEY SPORT

Subsonic, FIOCCHI And ELEY CONTACT

Match, ELEY TENEX and LAPUA MIDAS PLUS

Ultra velocity, CCI STINGER and FIOCCHI ULTRASONIC.

This is starting to sound interesting. I have a Remington 521 barrel I bought from ebay, turned out to have bad corrosion from the muzzle back about eight inches. I cut six inches off the barrel and back-bored two more to get to decent rifling. It seems to shoot all right, looks a little odd with its 7/16" muzzle opening.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Yes, I never realized how much shooting this is going to require!!?

The rifle has a 24.75 inch barrel.

My intention is to cut 18 inches off in one inch increments!

Shooting will be 5, 10-shot groups.

I have removed the open sights.

I have adjusted the trigger, and installed a Bushnell 6-24X scope on it.

I am going to check my ammo store and select the ammo. It seems I would need 1,800 of each type for the test!!!?

It really needs a trigger!

I am going to keep you all up to date with what is happening, as I said, this is going to be a length process, and I have a few trips over seas in the next weeks.

I have fired 5 shots of each ammo, to get the velocity.

I am doing this because I found that the chronograph tends to misread if the targets being shot are at the top and not center of the sky screens.

I wanted to avoid that, hence doping it this way.

1. CCI STINGER 1545 FPS
2. FIOCCHI ULTRASONIC 1272 FPS

3. ELEY FORCE 1173 FPS
4. CCI MINI MAG 1192 FPS

5. SK STANDARD 1028 FPS
6. ELEY SPORT 1015 FPS

7. FIOCCHI SUBSONIC 1026 FPS
8. ELEY CONTACT 1074 FPS

9. LAPUA MIDAS PLUS 1045 FPS
10. ELEY TENEX 1052 FPS

All the above is from the standard factory barrel, which is 24.75 inches long.

Anyone wishes to hazard a guess how much velocity we will loose with each inch of barrel?

I recall reading that maximum velocity is attained at 18 inches in the 22 long rifle.

I wonder if that is going to be true.

I thought I had read that the max. velocity is reached in a 16" bbl. My own chronograph data shows only 100-150 feet/sec. drop from a 26" bbl to a 4" bbl. My problem is that some of the data was taken with a bolt gun, some in a semi-auto and some with revolvers. Your test will be interesting for sure. I am very curious to see if there is a 'magic' length for best accuracy with any given ammo?
C.G.B.

Just my wild guess but I'm going to say 15 fps per inch from 25" to about 18" and once you get below 18" I'm going to say about 25 fps per inch.

About 20 years ago (just a guess) there was a report of a study done by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police on the shortening of a .22 rimfire barrel. IIRC, their study was to understand what happened if someone cut down a barrel to make a concealable weapon, but they did it the same way.

The RCMP used a cheap single shot .22 and cut the barrel off an inch at a time, did the chronograph & accuracy tests. Report said the .22 LR was most efficient with a 16" barrel.

Well, I am eliminating any variations as much as possible.

All the ammo is from the same lot, and all are shot in the same rifle.

1. CCI STINGER 1545 FPS
1543 FPS

2. FIOCCHI ULTRASONIC 1272 FPS
1239 FPS

3. ELEY FORCE 1173 FPS
1188 FPS

4. CCI MINI MAG 1192 FPS
1213 FPS

5. SK STANDARD 1028 FPS
1033 FPS

6. ELEY SPORT 1015 FPS
1081 FPS

7. FIOCCHI SUBSONIC 1026 FPS
1027 FPS

8. ELEY CONTACT 1074 FPS
1067 FPS

9. LAPUA MIDAS PLUS 1045 FPS
1055 FPS

10. ELEY TENEX 1052 FPS
1066 FPS


Here are the velocity results after one inch have been cut off.

Most interesting. For some loads, friction is already slowing the bullet in the final inch of the barrel.

1. CCI STINGER 1545 FPS
1543 FPS
1558 FPS

2. FIOCCHI ULTRASONIC 1272 FPS
1239 FPS
1259 FPS

3. ELEY FORCE 1173 FPS
1188 FPS
1198 FPS

4. CCI MINI MAG 1192 FPS
1213 FPS
1222 FPS

5. SK STANDARD 1028 FPS
1033 FPS
1042 FPS

6. ELEY SPORT 1015 FPS
1081 FPS
1084 FPS

7. FIOCCHI SUBSONIC 1026 FPS
1027 FPS
1043 FPS

8. ELEY CONTACT 1074 FPS
1067 FPS
1070 FPS

9. LAPUA MIDAS PLUS 1045 FPS
1055 FPS
1084 FPS

10. ELEY TENEX 1052 FPS
1066 FPS
1074 FPS

These are the velocities after a further one inch was cut off.

I love these 22 tests that you do. Thanks so much for taking time out to do it.

Any chance of you making these comprehensive tests a sticky? They are without question sticky worthy.

This sort of test has been done before many tines by the various US ammo companies.

The velocity of most loads will climb until the 18-20" range and then there will be a slight velocity loss to the US legal 16" length.

1. CCI STINGER 1545 FPS 0.6080 1.3968
1543 FPS 0.6682 1.7784
1558 FPS 0.7400 1.6696
1546 FPS 0.8796 1.7560
1539 FPS

2. FIOCCHI ULTRASONIC 1272 FPS 0.5946 1.5954
1239 FPS 0.5806 1.5268
1259 FPS 0.9088 1.6456
1294 FPS 0.6586 1.8978
1262 FPS

3. ELEY FORCE 1173 FPS 0.5338 1.3140
1188 FPS 0.4906 1.0982
1198 FPS 0.5276 1.2768
1191 FPS 0.5476 1.1766
1155 FPS

4. CCI MINI MAG 1192 FPS 0.5454 1.1414
1213 FPS 1.1400 1.7902
1222 FPS 0.9944 1.9086
1228 FPS 0.6502 1.7822
1220 FPS

5. SK STANDARD 1028 FPS 0.4446 1.3360
1033 FPS 0.5716 1.4686
1042 FPS 0.5280 1.0822
1059 FPS 0.4196 0.9898
1051 FPS

6. ELEY SPORT 1015 FPS 0.7156 1.4130
1081 FPS 0.7246 1.4260
1084 FPS 0.4806 1.2700
1047 FPS 0.5640 1.4052
1099 FPS

7. FIOCCHI SUBSONIC 1026 FPS 0.8764 1.7658
1027 FPS 0.6894 1.9966
1043 FPS 0.5572 1.4536
1061 FPS 0.8574 1.4620
1038 FPS

8. ELEY CONTACT 1074 FPS 0.6510 1.2918
1067 FPS 0.6198 1.3132
1070 FPS 0.6756 1.6334
1071 FPS 0.6672 1.3652
1976 FPS

9. LAPUA MIDAS PLUS 1045 FPS 0.5440 1.3748
1055 FPS 0.5858 1.5414
1084 FPS 0.5670 1.5556
1084 FPS 0.4938 1.0080
1111 FPS

10. ELEY TENEX 1052 FPS 0.6104 1.2084
1066 FPS 0.6814 1.4264
1074 FPS 0.5412 1.2210
1061 FPS 0.4982 1.1566
1095 FPS

These are the velocities after a further one inch was cut off.[/quote]

I have added the groups.

First group at 50 yards, second at 100 yards.

We are down to 20.75 inches now.

Next installment will be in a little while, as I am travelling for two weeks.

Getting frozen to death in Northern BC, Canada!

Just beginning to notice that shots are beginning to sound loud now.

Especially from the CCI Stinger.

I am going to add another text to this.

Noise level test.

We are down to 19.75 inches now and I will check the noise level from now on as each inch is taken off.

For comparison purposes, I will check the noise level in another rifle of the same make and model with the original barrel.

1. CCI STINGER 1545 FPS 0.6080 1.3968
1543 FPS 0.6682 1.7784
1558 FPS 0.7400 1.6696
1546 FPS 0.8796 1.7560
1539 FPS
1612 FPS
1592 FPS

2. FIOCCHI ULTRASONIC 1272 FPS 0.5946 1.5954
1239 FPS 0.5806 1.5268
1259 FPS 0.9088 1.6456
1294 FPS 0.6586 1.8978
1262 FPS
1237 FPS
1230 FPS

3. ELEY FORCE 1173 FPS 0.5338 1.3140
1188 FPS 0.4906 1.0982
1198 FPS 0.5276 1.2768
1191 FPS 0.5476 1.1766
1155 FPS
1151 FPS
1184 FPS

4. CCI MINI MAG 1192 FPS 0.5454 1.1414
1213 FPS 1.1400 1.7902
1222 FPS 0.9944 1.9086
1228 FPS 0.6502 1.7822
1220 FPS
1214 FPS
1204 FPS

5. SK STANDARD 1028 FPS 0.4446 1.3360
1033 FPS 0.5716 1.4686
1042 FPS 0.5280 1.0822
1059 FPS 0.4196 0.9898
1051 FPS
1042 FPS
1053 FPS

6. ELEY SPORT 1015 FPS 0.7156 1.4130
1081 FPS 0.7246 1.4260
1084 FPS 0.4806 1.2700
1047 FPS 0.5640 1.4052
1099 FPS
1087 FPS
1064

7. FIOCCHI SUBSONIC 1026 FPS 0.8764 1.7658
1027 FPS 0.6894 1.9966
1043 FPS 0.5572 1.4536
1061 FPS 0.8574 1.4620
1038 FPS
1037 FPS
1047 FPS

8. ELEY CONTACT 1074 FPS 0.6510 1.2918
1067 FPS 0.6198 1.3132
1070 FPS 0.6756 1.6334
1071 FPS 0.6672 1.3652
1976 FPS
1080 FPS
1073 FPS

9. LAPUA MIDAS PLUS 1045 FPS 0.5440 1.3748
1055 FPS 0.5858 1.5414
1084 FPS 0.5670 1.5556
1084 FPS 0.4938 1.0080
1111 FPS
1106 FPS
1105 FPS

10. ELEY TENEX 1052 FPS 0.6104 1.2084
1066 FPS 0.6814 1.4264
1074 FPS 0.5412 1.2210
1061 FPS 0.4982 1.1566
1095 FPS
1071 FPS
1060 FPS

We started off with a barrel that was 24.75 inches long.

Each velocity reading is one inch shorter.

Hi Saeed,

In a previous post you said:

"I have fired 5 shots of each ammo, to get the velocity.
I am doing this because I found that the chronograph tends to misread if the targets being shot are at the top and not center of the sky screens."

As I read it, does that mean you are only using 5 shots of data for every ammo for every inch you cut off the barrel? And not the velocity for all of the rounds fired?

Thanks,
Landy

quote:

Originally posted by Husker P7M8:
Hi Saeed,

In a previous post you said:

"I have fired 5 shots of each ammo, to get the velocity.
I am doing this because I found that the chronograph tends to misread if the targets being shot are at the top and not center of the sky screens."

As I read it, does that mean you are only using 5 shots of data for every ammo for every inch you cut off the barrel? And not the velocity for all of the rounds fired?

Thanks,
Landy

Yes, that is correct.

It is not practically possible to measure the velocity of all rounds fired.

I found that the chronograph will only measure the velocity accurately with a 22 rim fire if the shots are fired close to the screens - i.e low and center.

What I do is fire 5 shots of each ammo when the barrel is cut.

Then carry on with the accuracy test without velocity measurement.

Thanks Saeed,

One more question if you don't mind, did you shoot at least 2 "foulers" before you shot the 5 rounds to capture the velocity data?

Rimfires are notorious for exhibiting both very low and very high velocities with the first couple of shots in either a fouled barrel that has sat for an extended time before being fired, or one that has been cleaned before being shot.
This info/data has been compiled from approximately 80,000 rounds fired in my testing facility with ballistic tunnel from primarily custom lapped Rimfire Benchrest barrels. However, there is the possibility factory barrels may not behave exactly the same....not enough data to comment on that aspect.

Thanks again,
Landy

No I have not.

I have shot literally hundreds of thousands of 22 rim fire in various tests, and I honestly cannot find any correlation on the fouler theory.

Anytime I think we got some sort of understanding on what makes 22 rim fire tick, I get something that throws a monkey wrench in the works.

Had sometime with Dwight Scott, a master gunsmith and a great bench rest shooter, here.

I gave him a match 22 rim fire and asked him to find what makes it shoot best.

He tried, ultimately he gave up!

22 rim fire have a mind of their own.

We cannot really complain for what we are getting.

But, they are certainly not as consistent as center fire ammo we make.

So far I think we have fired around 9,000 rounds, and only had one misfire.

It is a CCI Stinger.

Funny enough, I have fired thousands of these before, and this is the first time we had a misfire from them.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
No I have not.

I have shot literally hundreds of thousands of 22 rim fire in various tests, and I honestly cannot find any correlation on the fouler theory.

Not finding any correlation is relatively easy to explain in your case, as well as most others, and it's usually because non-match ammo is used in the testing. What I mean by non-match ammo is anything other than Eley Tenex/Match, Lapua X-Act/Midas+, and RWS R50/R100.

There's a very good reason all other ammos pale in comparison regarding velocity variations and in almost all instances performance on the target. The reason is Quality Control, and that's also the reason why the ammos I listed above are sometimes described as obscenely high priced!

Now, having said the above, there are always exceptions to the rule and I don't have your raw data to draw conclusions from. Also, as previously mentioned, factory barrels with an unlapped bore and most having no taper lap, may behave differently. It's just my best guess for you not being able to see any Statistical velocity correlations, when I on the other hand, see it in nearly every test I run in my tunnel.

It might be interesting to see each rd's velocity with the Tenex and Midas+ you used? It's possible it may show something that's useful.

I think it may be helpful to use a couple of visual examples and present some numbers in the hope this becomes a little clearer. It just so happens we had a break in the weather here and I shot a target this week when the temps were above freezing.
The ammo used was Eley Tenex and I was doing a 25-shot test for an entirely different reason than what we're discussing. Although I track every shot I fire when testing, I usually shoot 5 foulers and throw that data out because I've learned over many years that it will contaminate the results if included. In this case, 2 foulers would have been enough, like I said previously, but as a sort of insurance policy, I use 5 foulers the vast majority of the time.

This is a screenshot from some of the software I use to analyze targets with a few remarks I overlaid on it.
I would note that the first shot fired (1,115 fps) had the highest velocity of all 30 rds and the second shot had the lowest velocity of all 30 rds.




"Anytime I think we got some sort of understanding on what makes 22 rim fire tick, I get something that throws a monkey wrench in the works."

You and me both! And, most everyone else also! LOL

"Had sometime with Dwight Scott, a master gunsmith and a great bench rest shooter, here."

I don't know Dwight personally, but I'm well aware of his stellar reputation and shooting expertise. I'll bet it was great fun having him around and picking his brain.

"I gave him a match 22 rim fire and asked him to find what makes it shoot best.
He tried, ultimately he gave up!"

I'm not surprised. LOL
It happens quite often and especially so with Short Range CF BR shooters who really struggle with how poorly rimfires shoot and behave vs centerfire.

I've run out of time and will be busy most of this week, but if there's any interest I'll make some time later to present an example where poor ammo is used and why it can really screw up an analysis of the results.

Landy


Landy,

Can you tell me what is the equipment and software you use for this print out please?

I am shooting 10 different ammo right now in this test.

So many times, when changing ammo from one type to another, the first shot hits the aiming point, then they start spreading.

How do you explain this if we take "foulers"into account??

quote:

Originally posted by Husker P7M8:
Thanks Saeed,

One more question if you don't mind, did you shoot at least 2 "foulers" before you shot the 5 rounds to capture the velocity data?

Rimfires are notorious for exhibiting both very low and very high velocities with the first couple of shots in either a fouled barrel that has sat for an extended time before being fired, or one that has been cleaned before being shot.
This info/data has been compiled from approximately 80,000 rounds fired in my testing facility with ballistic tunnel from primarily custom lapped Rimfire Benchrest barrels. However, there is the possibility factory barrels may not behave exactly the same....not enough data to comment on that aspect.

Thanks again,
Landy

Landy, what is your testing facility if you don't mind?

Saeed, I want to thank you again for taking time out to do these tests. The results are fascinating and useful. I wonder what caused the significant spike in Stinger velocity. Do you have a record of the shot to shot variation on the Stinger? That particular result has me wondering what the SD is. What do the numbers beside the velocity represent? 50 and 100 group size?

quote:

Originally posted by PaulBarnard:
Saeed, I want to thank you again for taking time out to do these tests. The results are fascinating and useful. I wonder what caused the significant spike in Stinger velocity. Do you have a record of the shot to shot variation on the Stinger? That particular result has me wondering what the SD is. What do the numbers beside the velocity represent? 50 and 100 group size?

What do the numbers beside the velocity represent? 50 and 100 group size? YES SIR.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:

quote:

Originally posted by PaulBarnard:
Saeed, I want to thank you again for taking time out to do these tests. The results are fascinating and useful. I wonder what caused the significant spike in Stinger velocity. Do you have a record of the shot to shot variation on the Stinger? That particular result has me wondering what the SD is. What do the numbers beside the velocity represent? 50 and 100 group size?

What do the numbers beside the velocity represent? 50 and 100 group size? YES SIR.

That is correct.

Thank you Butch.

I am falling behind by not measuring the groups.

I just wanted to use my time shooting, then I can do the measuring later on.

As I am not planning to post any targets until the test is finished.

We tend to get side tracked here quite frequently!

We were talking about silencers on a 308 Winchester, so we built one and installed it on a Sako 85 rifle.

Works great.

But we had to suspend this test.

Also I can only shoot this test when no one is shooting here.

Sometimes I wish we had a 10 lane shooting range, instead of just one.

quote:

Originally posted by PaulBarnard:

Landy, what is your testing facility if you don't mind?

Hi Paul,

Here's a few pics of my tunnel and a couple of pieces of equipment.

Landy

Since visuals seem to be very effective versus the written word when discussing technical subjects, I randomly selected a barrel from my archives and created a composite screenshot showing the Sighter/Fouler shots for the first 12 tests I conducted over about a two week period for this particular barrel.

The y-axis illustrates where the shots impact on the target in the vertical plane. The x-axis shows the velocity for each shot directly above it.

This is what I typically see with a barrel I've cleaned before I start a testing session. The first shot will usually be the highest velocity and they impact on the target above the rest of the shots.
As previously mentioned though, there will almost always be exceptions to the rule. In this case, the target shot on 5/28/17 shows the first shot had the slowest velocity and impacted no higher than the rest.

Landy

I hope the Huskers finally found a FB coach.

1. CCI STINGER 1545 FPS 0.6080 1.3968
1543 FPS 0.6682 1.7784
1558 FPS 0.7400 1.6696
1546 FPS 0.8796 1.7560
1539 FPS
1612 FPS
1592 FPS
1599 FPS
1589 FPS

2. FIOCCHI ULTRASONIC 1272 FPS 0.5946 1.5954
1239 FPS 0.5806 1.5268
1259 FPS 0.9088 1.6456
1294 FPS 0.6586 1.8978
1262 FPS
1237 FPS
1230 FPS
1213 FPS
1240 FPS

3. ELEY FORCE 1173 FPS 0.5338 1.3140
1188 FPS 0.4906 1.0982
1198 FPS 0.5276 1.2768
1191 FPS 0.5476 1.1766
1155 FPS
1151 FPS
1184 FPS
1196 FPS
1118 FPS

4. CCI MINI MAG 1192 FPS 0.5454 1.1414
1213 FPS 1.1400 1.7902
1222 FPS 0.9944 1.9086
1228 FPS 0.6502 1.7822
1220 FPS
1214 FPS
1204 FPS
1215 FPS
1210 FPS

5. SK STANDARD 1028 FPS 0.4446 1.3360
1033 FPS 0.5716 1.4686
1042 FPS 0.5280 1.0822
1059 FPS 0.4196 0.9898
1051 FPS
1042 FPS
1053 FPS
1049 FPS
1059 FPS

6. ELEY SPORT 1015 FPS 0.7156 1.4130
1081 FPS 0.7246 1.4260
1084 FPS 0.4806 1.2700
1047 FPS 0.5640 1.4052
1099 FPS
1087 FPS
1064 FPS
1052 FPS
1050 FPS

7. FIOCCHI SUBSONIC 1026 FPS 0.8764 1.7658
1027 FPS 0.6894 1.9966
1043 FPS 0.5572 1.4536
1061 FPS 0.8574 1.4620
1038 FPS
1037 FPS
1047 FPS
1050 FPS
1046 FPS

8. ELEY CONTACT 1074 FPS 0.6510 1.2918
1067 FPS 0.6198 1.3132
1070 FPS 0.6756 1.6334
1071 FPS 0.6672 1.3652
1976 FPS
1080 FPS
1073 FPS
1075 FPS
1086 FPS

9. LAPUA MIDAS PLUS 1045 FPS 0.5440 1.3748
1055 FPS 0.5858 1.5414
1084 FPS 0.5670 1.5556
1084 FPS 0.4938 1.0080
1111 FPS
1106 FPS
1105 FPS
1085 FPS
1110 FPS

10. ELEY TENEX 1052 FPS 0.6104 1.2084
1066 FPS 0.6814 1.4264
1074 FPS 0.5412 1.2210
1061 FPS 0.4982 1.1566
1095 FPS
1071 FPS
1060 FPS
1047 FPS
1050 FPS

Landry,

Can you give more more information on the machine rest you posted above?

The one which has YOUNG printed on it.

Can this one be used with different actions?

Any idea of the cost?

Also, what is the software - and hardware - that you use to give you the print outs you posted.

Any feedback would be much appreciated.

Jay Young made his rail gun and may be considered the best by most BR folks. Have a bud with one that machined his own bushings to hold different profile barrels. It works by clamping the barrel, not the receiver.
It appears that the faster ammo is affected more than the sub sonic ammo as the barrel gets shorter.


http://benchrest.com/youngrails/

Would you please post the barrel length on each of the tables?
Will this be assembled into a spreadsheet when you finish the testing?