quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Being one of the ones who never leaves the truck without a round chambered, I can see how others might see this as a good use of the rifle. Too me the rifle ,unloaded, doesn't even make a good club. Nothing to grab to swing. Barrel is too small. So I suppose a walking stick is a good alternate use. I'm not very macho as has been stated on here so my methods are automatically suspect but I rarely have,in fact NEVER, hunted in Alaska and never really wanted to. It looks like a totally unpleasant place to hunt not friendly like the Zimbabwe bush.

When necessary an unloaded rifle can be useful for a number of purposes. One just has to be resourceful enough.
And while I see no problem with your never leaving your vehicle with an unloaded gun. Pavement in a city is a lot more forgiving to walk on than tundra and mountainous terrain. Like many experienced guides here in Alaska who have had seen more than there share of unintended discharges by hunters who insisted they were "safe". I have a scar in the back of my leg from an unintended discharge and have seen two fatalities from them and I refuse to guide a client who carries a round in the chamber.

458Win, sorry you had an unfortunate accident with an accidental discharge and I'm sure there are many uses for an unloaded rifle if you are resourceful enough,but shooting something isn't one of those things. Might make a good prybar and you could always make a fire from one with a wood stock. I shall probably never hunt again so for me it's a moot point in any case. Did you ever see a single tar road in Zimbabwe,I imagine some of the tundra is smooth compared to them. I have never actually been hunting in a paved hunting area anywhere but then I haven't been many places.

I'm with Phil on this. They're tools, no matter how pretty they are they're still tools. I've used mine in the same manner as seen in the picture, dug my butt stock into the shale to stop my accelerating and unintentional descent of a mountain side and leaned on it while I took a short breather under the weight of a meat laden pack.

I enjoy my rifles. Some are nice. Some are utilitarian. They all get hunted. They all get well cared for but none of them get babied and they have the character marks to prove it.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
458Win, sorry you had an unfortunate accident with an accidental discharge and I'm sure there are many uses for an unloaded rifle if you are resourceful enough,but shooting something isn't one of those things. Might make a good prybar and you could always make a fire from one with a wood stock. I shall probably never hunt again so for me it's a moot point in any case. Did you ever see a single tar road in Zimbabwe,I imagine some of the tundra is smooth compared to them. I have never actually been hunting in a paved hunting area anywhere but then I haven't been many places.

I have traveled some of those single tar roads in Zimbabwe, as well as a few similar ones in Vietnam , and while photos of tundra may look level, I assure you there is nothing that feels level when you are walking on it. In fact many sections are quite similar to walking across a swimming pool cover and Five miles of that with a 100 # load of meat on your back makes you miss the mountains.

I am with Phil as well. It's his rifle and a tool to use how he chooses.

You drive a vehicle that cost more than 99.9 percent of all rifles made everyday regardless of the weather.

quote:

Originally posted by Big Wonderful Wyoming:
You drive a vehicle that cost more than 99.9 percent of all rifles made everyday regardless of the weather.

Right, but I generally drive on pavement and avoid crossing streams with water half way up the doors.

I disagree that all rifles are tools. Some rifles are tools. Maybe even most rifles are tools. But in my view, some rifles are too beautiful, too valuable and too precious to expose them to poor conditions that will degrade their appearance and value (and maybe even their functioning). Not to mention the possible catastrophe of a broken stock that possibly is irreplaceable if the original maker is no longer with us.

By all means, take those black stock, stainless steel rifles hunting. Use them as walking staffs if you like. But leave your expensive, beautiful, rust blued, English walnut, custom rifles in "as new" condition in the gun cabinet.

quote:

Originally posted by vicvanb:
... But leave your expensive, beautiful, rust blued, English walnut, custom rifles in
"as new" condition in the gun cabinet.

I recall seeing images of the state of Harry Selbys Rigby .416 before its extensive refurb.
..with all the bluing gone and no checkering.
I don't think he gave a frigg about maintaining its orig. Rigby factory beauty or resale value,
for the number of decades he used it as a primary tool.

In fact, not long after he got it, he himself modified the grip and forend to better suite himself.

The primary reason he sent it back to Rigby decades later,was not for cosmetics, but for a needed re-barrel...

As Phil said, you can tell those with experience from others with only opinions.............

Walking around with a round in the chamber is irresponsible.....Darwinian and foolish at best. (Now I am absolutely 100% certain Mr. Wiebe's guns are indeed built "military drop safe," and can be handled as such, but still, shit happens.........)

I've never met a guide who was so reckless to allow a client to hunt with one up the tube. On the contrary, every guide I've hunted with repeatedly would ask "chamber empty?" ad nauseum every time you gear up, from leaving camp, to lunch to taking a shit...............like a tic "chamber empty?" "chamber empty?"

As far as guides go, I wouldn't hunt with one who has a pristine rifle, unless it was recently given to him as a tip. Rest assured it wouldn't look that way for long. If that were not the case, I'd recommend you ask for a different guide. Same goes if he looks as if he just came from a Kuiu/Sitka photo shoot. I want a guide with a beater rifle (Rustoleum, black tape), worn gear (preferably one article of Carhart) with at least one hole in something (+/- first hunt of the season). And don't be surprised if it isn't CRF, remember these guys know what they're doing- funniest thing I ever heard was "If I ever need to be upside down in a tree to shoot a bear I'll get a different gun."

Frankly if you look at your guide and you don't think to yourself at least once WTF?!?!?!? when you see his glass, spotting scope <- that's 99% a fuckin joke, his gun or his gear, sumpin ain't Kosher (hint those items are good ideas for a well appreciated tip).

No, if you've actually hunted Alaska you would know it can take you well over a dozen crossings to simply get from one side of the creek to the other. And eventually you will get wet. If you're on an animal, you won't even have the luxury to get out garbage bags, let alone fuck around to put on a pair of waders or frolic about to find a stick. And that, without even the guarantee of getting in place to take a shot.

As far as taking a creampuff rifle- don't. Like taking a knife to a gunfight- can be done but there are better options. Take the creampuff to Africa, there's always someone around who can carry it (and obviously you as well), clean and polish it at the same time they're doing your laundry so you can look good for your photo shoot.

The last thing you want in Alaska is to have to a maintenance liability in the field....put some tape over the muzzle, a couple-three rolls around the barrel and off you go. I guarantee you will be dog ass tired & want to chunk your rifle on the tarp, grab some vittles and crawl up in your bag. You may not look good in your pics, or even take a shot, but the hunt will be priceless.

The responses below have as Homer would say "hit the mark with wing-ed words"

quote:

Delicate elegance is a costly and unwise extravagance in the wilderness.............people should give some thought to their intended purpose of their rifles. Possibly even before you commission them.

PS A lot is said with a wry smile, and I know the majority of the arms-crossed, bowels no move curmudgeons can only read black - white, but like generalities, all is based upon truths.

quote:

Originally posted by vicvanb: Right, but I generally drive on pavement and avoid crossing streams with water half way up the doors.

I disagree that all rifles are tools. Some rifles are tools. Maybe even most rifles are tools. But in my view, some rifles are too beautiful, too valuable and too precious to expose them to poor conditions that will degrade their appearance and value (and maybe even their functioning). Not to mention the possible catastrophe of a broken stock that possibly is irreplaceable if the original maker is no longer with us.

By all means, take those black stock, stainless steel rifles hunting. Use them as walking staffs if you like. But leave your expensive, beautiful, rust blued, English walnut, custom rifles in "as new" condition in the gun cabinet.

When I was considerably younger and couldn't foresee the day when I would own a fine custom rifle, I became friends with a custom gun maker. He once treated me to a tour of his personal guns, some he had lavished considerable attention upon. They were spectacular but they all had at least some small mark or ding from their time afield. I made the comment that it was a shame to take guns like this hunting and get them all dinged up. His reply was, "it would be a shame not to."

His response helped shape my current attitude about firearms. No gun is so fine or so valuable that it should languish in some shadowy tomb, only to be brought out occasionally, briefly admired, and returned to it's dark crypt.

I'm willing to bet that had Jack O'Conner pulled one of my signature, though unintentional, butt sliding mountain descents, he would have dug the buttstock of one of those fine Biesens into the shale and been happy to do it. I'm not saying we should look for ways to abuse our guns but they belong in the field doing what they were designed for and when we're in the field stuff happens no matter how careful we are.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:

quote:

delicate elegance is a costly and unwise extravagance in the wilderness.

A very prophetic statement. Does it imply that folks should think about leaving their finely stocked expensive custom rifles at home when heading to Alaska to hunt in the wilderness areas.

No, it means that it may be unwise to take anything delicate all the way to Alaska

Oh heck, I broke an ankle once about three miles down the creek bed. The rifle made a damn fine splint too. Yup, it was a custom english walnut stocked rifle. I could shore up the ankle/foot by taping the rifle to the leg so that the buttpad was just below the foot, hold the barrel and have a half way decent crutch. Yes, it was unloaded.

Rifles are tools to me. All of them.

quote:

Walking around with a round in the chamber is irresponsible.....Darwinian and foolish at best. (Now I am absolutely 100% certain

There are times and places where walking around with out around in the chamber make sense.

There is also hunting where if you didn't have a round chambered one would hardly ever shoot the game you were after.

Try busting that grouse that flushes in front of your dog in the popple slashing. Real fun if one is carrying a double and trying to load it.

Try shooting that whitetail buck that jumps up ahead you in the tag alder swamp.

Try walking into a bear and a pack of hounds fighting with your dogs then shooting it as it give a split second opening in the brush.

These are just few examples where the game doesn't give you the luxury of having empty chamber.

99.9 percent of the time I hunt with a chambered round.

I understand perfectly why guides to not want their clients to do so.

No Duane. Not directed at you- I too have had my share of out of body dumfuck experiences. Even though everything I own is military drop safe, thankfully I never allow myself to trust that.

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I've never met a guide who was so reckless to allow a client to hunt with one up the tube. On the contrary, every guide I've hunted with repeatedly would ask "chamber empty?"

Curious, have you ever hunted in Africa (other than South Africa or Namibia)? If so, who was your guide?

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:

As far as taking a creampuff rifle- don't. Like taking a knife to a gunfight- can be done but there are better options.
Take the creampuff to Africa, there's always someone around who can carry it (and obviously you as well), clean and polish
it at the same time they're doing your laundry so you can look good for your photo shoot.

...

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
My son in law is a diesel mechanic and has been for many many years and I can assure you he is as careful of the condition of his tools
as I am about the condition of my rifle while hunting. I have never seen a really competant craftsman who was not. I have really never
seen a PH who really abused his rifles. There probably are some but I would really not like to hunt with them. I treasure my rifles and
treat them in the field as I do in my home - with extreme care.

My experience in high-speed marine diesel + aircraft engine/turbines,
tells me that the luxury of such controlled environment workshop conditions, are far from being anything like a hunting
guide working in the Alaskan wilderness with constant exposure to the variable elements of nature.

Even so, some tradesmen had tools they have had for yrs which showed obvious signs of use and associated natural wear.
Perception would tell you that the guy with the pristine 'as new' appearance cabinet full of expensive tools,
likely has the least amount of experience.

I have watch enthusiast friend who's not game to risk taking a dedicated purpose-built Rolex dive watch, into the surf....
So what I perceive as purpose built normal use,.. he considers/perceives as 'abuse'.
(I reg. see Rolex dive watches sold/traded, that are as new in the box)

Some people are just like many rolex owners,in that they spend money on fine walnut customs more for pride of ownership/posturing than anything else.

"Guides" are what we are called in N America. African hunting guides prefer the term PH and tend to get bent when called "guides". "Guides" take folks on photo safaris.

And comparing rifle handling etiquette between Alaska and Africa makes no more sense than comparing the hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I've never met a guide who was so reckless to allow a client to hunt with one up the tube. On the contrary, every guide I've hunted with repeatedly would ask "chamber empty?"

Curious, have you ever hunted in Africa (other than South Africa or Namibia)? If so, who was your guide?

That was my thought too. Always have a round in the chamber in Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by MHC_TX:

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
I've never met a guide who was so reckless to allow a client to hunt with one up the tube. On the contrary, every guide I've hunted with repeatedly would ask "chamber empty?"

Curious, have you ever hunted in Africa (other than South Africa or Namibia)? If so, who was your guide?

That was my thought too. Always have a round in the chamber in Africa.

And we know that has been a problem in a few cases.

I won't hunt with someone that carries hot all day. I've had three different people accidentally discharge a firearm within three feet of me while hunting. Enough is enough.

You are not chosing your hunting partners very well. I only hunt with ones I know and trust.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
You are not chosing your hunting partners very well. I only hunt with ones I know and trust.

I didn't always choose who I hunted with. But I will say that thankfully all three had the firearm pointed in a safe direction.

And I mostly hunt alone but when I do hunt with someone else, he has to be a good enough friend that he would at least feel bad if he accidentally shot me! This does narrow the field considerably.
In the picture, Phil does look like he is all business and about one half tough. At 3/4 tough he wouldn't be wearing waders. Fully tough and he would be neck deep with his clothes on top of his head and smiling. Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
And I mostly hunt alone but when I do hunt with someone else, he has to be a good enough friend that he would at least feel bad if he accidentally shot me! This does narrow the field considerably.
In the picture, Phil does look like he is all business and about one half tough. At 3/4 tough he wouldn't be wearing waders. Fully tough and he would be neck deep with his clothes on top of his head and smiling. Regards, Bill

I'll consider that as an honest assessment. But Usually when I am in over my head it's when I am crossing a river at night and nobody is even thinking about digging out a camera.

I do offer this service for folks who are afraid to get their rifles wet.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I do offer this service for folks who are afraid to get their rifles wet.

Bwaaaaaaah Haaaaaaaa Haaaaaaaaa Haaaaaaa.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I do offer this service for folks who are afraid to get their rifles wet.

When I was young I piggy-backed a few friends without hip boots across streams--some weighed as much as me. I also used the two plastic garbage bag trick--light weight and it works pretty well. And of course, when neither garbage bags or hip boots were available, the hiking boots and socks came off and I bare footed it across. Even if there's ice it's not as bad as it sounds if you go fast. The real trick is to carry something to dry off with.

quote:

Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
Guides Iv'e had in Colorado had the most comfortable way to stay dry.. using a four leg ATV that ran on oats and grass

But Duane, baiting for brown bears is illegal in Alaska, even if you are still sitting on top of it.

In those real cold streams, I find I am starting to sniffle a little after about ten steps. Fifteen steps and I start whining and at twenty I am crying like a little girl. Several years back, we were looking for spring grizzlies and slogging through about a foot of melting snow (the remnants of eight feet). At each stream crossing, and there were a half dozen of them, we would strip off boots and socks and wade across. I was OK, except for the sniveling, for the first couple but by the third one I was sobbing inside before I even got my boots off though I think I did a good job of hiding it. Kept my rifle out of the water though! Regards, Bill.

At least on the peninsula we know we will be crossing numerous streams so start out wearing hip boot or waders. I remember many days sheep hunting in the Chugach and Talkeetna mtns were we wore leather boots and had to cross cold glacier fed streams and each morning had to thaw out our boots by a fire before we could even get them on our feet !
On one hunt I remember having to cross one stream 23 times in one morning in order to get to the sheep. When I started guiding in the Brooks range, which is a lot easier hunting, I eventually starting wearing my La Cross ankle fit hip boots there as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
In those real cold streams, I find I am starting to sniffle a little after about ten steps. Fifteen steps and I start whining and at twenty I am crying like a little girl. Several years back, we were looking for spring grizzlies and slogging through about a foot of melting snow (the remnants of eight feet). At each stream crossing, and there were a half dozen of them, we would strip off boots and socks and wade across. I was OK, except for the sniveling, for the first couple but by the third one I was sobbing inside before I even got my boots off though I think I did a good job of hiding it. Kept my rifle out of the water though! Regards, Bill.

Bill,

You're way tougher than me if you made it twenty steps before crying like a little girl. I'm usually at that point much sooner.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
In those real cold streams, I find I am starting to sniffle a little after about ten steps. Fifteen steps and I start whining and at twenty I am crying like a little girl. Several years back, we were looking for spring grizzlies and slogging through about a foot of melting snow (the remnants of eight feet). At each stream crossing, and there were a half dozen of them, we would strip off boots and socks and wade across. I was OK, except for the sniveling, for the first couple but by the third one I was sobbing inside before I even got my boots off though I think I did a good job of hiding it. Kept my rifle out of the water though! Regards, Bill.

I remember one particular sheep hunt that five days in I was feeling like a bath. We were on the Jasper Border in August so how cold can a glacial fed stream be? I thought for affect I would yelp when I hit the water and get a chuckle out of my hunting companions a couple hundred yards away in camp. No yelp happened. It was so cold I could not force any noise out at all. My next washing was in a hot shower five days later.

When out hunting "big game" with a handgun, I keep it loaded to the top also. In your case Duane, the footing was a little more secure, too. I also realize that there are situations where there are "slippery slopes" and more that a few "banana peels."
If I am oughta town, and using a handgun, I've prolly got a walking stick of some kind.
Most of my hunting rifles are ex-military, and tho' restocked, scoped, and finished in a tough finish, only one is stocked in "plastic."
When I lived in Alaska, I carried an Enfield M17 .300 WinMag. Every time someone makes a comment about the dings, I say "Well, THIS one happened when I...."
The major ding on "Luci," was when about 40 years ago I slid a Sierra 180gr softpoint flatbase though a mule deer buck's ribs at about 100yds. I laid 'er up against a boulder to steady 'er.
If you get concerned with the "effeminate" I've given 'er...it's short for Lucifer's Hammer!!
Have fun,
Gene

OK then, before you put that fine piece of walnut in the water what , today ,is the most waterproof finish ??
One hunt we were hiking along with no info there would be any rain at all when it suddenly was like we were under Niagara Falls .We crossed the stream anyway ! I appreciated that I had finished the stock inside and out with polyurethane .Also nice was the take down of my M98 .

We all have our position in life.
A gunmaker builds functional art out of materials procured from the earth.
Some folks will consider guns too pretty to hunt with while some of us use these specialized tools until the elements bring them back to where they came from.

I have hunted with some folks that absolutely needed to be reminded to keep an empty chamber and have hunted with others that had sense enough to to be trusted to know what was appropriated at any given time.

In guns and hunting there is no end to the variables and no single best way.
To each their own and for gods sake quit seccond guessing those who have a wealth of first hand experience in their own environment. Your theoretical experience dosen't measure up.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
I rarely have,in fact NEVER, hunted in Alaska and never really wanted to. It looks like a totally unpleasant place to hunt not friendly like the Zimbabwe bush.

That was obvious when you posted you had never crossed a stream.

Alaska may not be Africa, but the satisfaction you get from hunting there is only exceeded by elephant or cat hunting, IMO.

As for carrying loaded/unloaded, I prefer carrying bullets in the mag but chamber empty. One has the weigh the possibility of an AD against the odds of a bear coming out of nowhere and whacking you. I have slogged meat in a pack plenty of times in AK and never once had a bear come after me. So I like and empty chamber.

quote:

Originally posted by TREE 'EM:

Some folks will consider guns too pretty to hunt with while some of us use these specialized tools until the elements
bring them back to where they came from.

Our human bodies will also breakdown and return to the elements of nature they came from.
So i don't why some people are so damn precious about inanimate far less valuable objects like a rifle.
and The legacy a person leaves behind is far more important than any material object.

AnotherAzWriter - Don't think I said I had never SEEN a stream I think I said I had never had to wade one while hunting and I can't remember having had to do so. I was born and raised in a State that has numerous streams and more numerous swamps. I dislike hunting in wet conditions,always have ,always will. The reason I have never hunted waterfowl. The only thing Alaska has ever had that was remotely interesting to me to hunt is big Bear and I have never really had an urge to hunt them. Africa (In particularly Zimbabwe as I have never hunted any other area there) has filled all my desires ten fold in the hunting area it also has many other attractions such as bird watching. I always thought of hunting a pleasant thing and not something that had to be physically debillitating to enjoy. I hate to admit it but I am rather lazy. If Alaska is your cup of tea then by all means quaff it with pleasure. I prefer Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
AnotherAzWriter - Don't think I said I had never SEEN a stream I think I said I had never had to wade one while hunting and I can't remember having had to do so. I was born and raised in a State that has numerous streams and more numerous swamps. I dislike hunting in wet conditions,always have ,always will. The reason I have never hunted waterfowl. The only thing Alaska has ever had that was remotely interesting to me to hunt is big Bear and I have never really had an urge to hunt them. Africa (In particularly Zimbabwe as I have never hunted any other area there) has filled all my desires ten fold in the hunting area it also has many other attractions such as bird watching. I always thought of hunting a pleasant thing and not something that had to be physically debillitating to enjoy. I hate to admit it but I am rather lazy. If Alaska is your cup of tea then by all means quaff it with pleasure. I prefer Africa.

Zim:

I didn't mean to be demeaning, I was just pointing out you didn't have to tell us you didn't hunt Alaska. Personally, I am glad it isn't for everyone.

I have never hunted Zim; I have preferred Tanz, but I just might be trying Zim in 2016.

I also admire your bird watching - too many people just want to kill something and go home.

I think caribou are one of the most beautiful animals there is, and worth crossing any stream or swamp for. I have not hunted them in years, but the memories are some of my favorites.

quote:

3

Everyone to their own pursuits. I have never cared for Caribou. They remind me of something that started out to be an Elk then decided to be a Moose and ended up a Caribou. I'm sure they are a worthy adversary I just never thought of them as such. To me they are just big herd animals.

Does that mean you don't hunt wildebeest, springbok, gemsbok etc?
Just curious about your rationalizing?