Crossing that river using a rifle like that is a shame and unnecessary.

A branch from one of the trees in the background would be superior and safer.

I have crossed streams thousands of times and if there is a thick enough dry branch I will use it but one does not always know when they will get in trouble crossing a creek , and the flexible green willows in the background of this photo probably would make better gunstocks than they would wading staffs.

Savage, I have a question for you, if you were in a cold, fast moving stream with a slick bottom and realized that you were likely to get swept off your feet and possibly loose your rifle if you did, would you still feel it was unnecessary?

I have to go with Phil on this one.

You use what you have in your hand when you need it.

My rifle has saved my ass from sliding down the mountain more than a few times. Wood stock or not.

Jeremy

That's why I bought a Mauser M03 for Alaska. I used it in a swamp to push brush down in front of me for every step (to step on) so I wouldn't sink. And I had the end of the wrapped with electrical tape!

quote:

Originally posted by farbedo:
I have to go with Phil on this one.

You use what you have in your hand when you need it.

My rifle has saved my ass from sliding down the mountain more than a few times. Wood stock or not.

Jeremy

Yes. Rowing uphill without water has saved my ass too.

I guess you just have to be there to get it..............

Savage, some people USE their rifles.

Maybe I'm wrong but aI think the environment is a bit different from most people back yards or steam beds. Might be pretty tough to shoo-away a brown bear with a willow wading stick. I like Phil's idea of a wading stick much better in this regard.

I would hope there would be no round chambered. I usually have a walking stick or cane because I'm old and wobbly but would use my rifle as a substitute if I didn't. I have often used the rifle as an aid when climbing a steep mountain and am pleased with the way the Pachmayr decelerator stands up to this usage! Regards, Bill.

Most of us who spend most of our spring and fall in the field look at our rifles as just another tool or piece of gear. There are times when a person gets in a hurry to close the distance on a bear or moose and a quick stream crossing is necessary, I've used my rifles is the same manner on occasion. Nobody practises safer gun handling than a guide who deals with multiple clients yearly and some who barely understand the basic rules of safety. I'm sure jabbing a rock or 2 with your rifle on the way across the creek is quicker than cutting an alder everytime a crossing (or 10)is in order. Some guide's are famous for the deplorable condition of their rifles, be assured Phil (or me) are not among this group!

In all my hunting I can't remember but one single occaison I had to wade a stream. It was in Zimbabwe hunting Waterbuck. I am 6'1" and weighed probably 250 at the time ( I have NEVER been small). The PH gave my rifle to a tracker and he put me on his shoulders and CARRIED me across. I got absolutely nothing wet. The PH didn't trust me to not fall down. Now that's service.

quote:

Originally posted by waterrat:
Most of us who spend most of our spring and fall time in the field look at our rifles as just another tool or piece of gear. There are times when a person gets in a hurry to close the distance on a bear or moose and a quick stream crossing is necessary, I've used my rifles is the same manner on occasion. Nobody practises safer gun handling than a guide who deals with multiple clients yearly and some who barely understand the basic rules of safety. I'm sure jabbing a rock or 2 with your rifle on the way across the creek is quicker than cutting an alder everytime a crossing (or 10)is in order. Some guide's are famous for the deplorable condition of their rifles, be assured Phil (or me) are not among this group!

+1.

Funny. I didn't notice the rifle as much as the tee shirt.

Yeah I've yet to see an animal wait for you while you look for a stick or put on your waders to cross a stream. It sucks to get balls deep wet, especially in the interior when it's glacier water. But that's huntin.

"a crossing or 10." That's jut too fucking funny!!!!! I almost fell off my chair with that......

PS I'm heading your way (Iliamna) next fall for a brown bear hunt

Phil, is that Bob Graham? If not, he has a twin out there!

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Phil, is that Bob Graham? If not, he has a twin out there!

Looks like a certain guide with something like 30+ years of experience in Alaska who posts on here...

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
The PH gave my rifle to a tracker and he put me on his shoulders and CARRIED me across. I got absolutely nothing wet. The PH didn't trust me to not fall down. Now that's service.

Now that's embarrassing.

Good on ya for having the courage to admit something like that...

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
The PH gave my rifle to a tracker and he put me on his shoulders and CARRIED me across. I got absolutely nothing wet. The PH didn't trust me to not fall down. Now that's service.

Now that's embarrassing.

I agree.

quote:

Originally posted by Savage_99:
Crossing that river using a rifle like that is a shame and unnecessary.

A branch from one of the trees in the background would be superior and safer.

Just think of the things you've missed out on hunting little deer from your lounge chair overlooking priddis greens.

Why ,pray tell,should I be embarassed?

Oops you're right. Thanks!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
The PH gave my rifle to a tracker and he put me on his shoulders and CARRIED me across. I got absolutely nothing wet. The PH didn't trust me to not fall down. Now that's service.

Now that's embarrassing.

Good on ya for having the courage to admit something like that...

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Why, pray tell, should I be embarassed?

There are times when it is acceptable to allow a man to carry you across a stream. I will list them here:

1. You are a woman.
2. You are a pre-teen boy of slight build, in danger of being swept away by the current.
3. You are over the age of approximately 80, and a frail physical specimen.
4. You have a physical disability that makes it impossible to cross under your own power.
5. You broke both legs following a low altitude ejection after getting hit by a stinger. The folks you just strafed are pissed off and starting to come after your landing position. The rescue helo is on the other side of the river in a hot LZ taking small arms fire from the ridge line. Being carried across the river is the only way to get your ass out of there to keep you from being beaten to death or spending a few years as a POW.

There may be other reasons, but I can not think of any off-hand. It is always preferred to accept a steadying hand (stick or rope are better to prevent actual touching) rather than to be carried, and it is never acceptable to be carried simply to stay dry and comfortable.

If you need further explanation I will recommend your man-card be revoked until you have had an opportunity to seek testosterone therapy from a qualified specialist.

Perhaps this link will help: Man Laws

quote:

Originally posted by FMC:
Oops you're right. Thanks!!!!!

"We're here. The camp is about 2 miles in that direction. Thank you for flying with us"

I e-mailed a couple frinds of mine that have done quite a bit of wilderness guiding & hunting. I thought you'd want to read their take on this thread. Creeks can be an issue, as are bears, sometimes shit happens and your stuff becomes other stuff. I have used a couple rifles for similar "tools" when required. I recall using a Legend as an ice axe in the Yukon not to many years ago. It was either use it to stay on the snow covered steep ass slope or wind up in the rocks 200 yards below. I shot a ram with the same rifle an hour later.

From: ron jenkins
Date: December 15, 2014 9:55:26 PM MST
To: DArcy Echols <echolslegend@comcast.net>

I certainly have! Model 70's also make excellent augers for making steps in shale. Thrust down butt first, rotate back and forth( large front sight facilitates camming action) .Also handy for spike camp shelters, roll in end of 8'x9' Visqueen, stack rocks on top to hold leeward side of lean to down. Wind sock for super cub pick up, tie a yard of flagging tape to end of barrel, hold high and steady. Your cub driver is now your best mate. When crossing glaciers stand near edge of crevasse ,lean out, pound on snow bridge with butt of rifle before stepping across.( this does nothing for safety but sure makes one feel better) Much preferably just cross in second place! In town their fine kit, even works of art. In the bush they soon turn in to just another tool !


PS: There are no branches straight enough nor stiff enough south of Port Heiden or north of the Brooks to use for a walking stick.Best to bring your own and you better pack a lunch.



From: Ralf Martini
Date: December 16, 2014 12:06:07 AM MST
To: DArcy Echols <echolslegend@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Ralf have you ever had to do this

Hi Darcy ,
Yes, I have done that many years ago , in a bind ones or twice , with my old custom Stainless Winchester 70 with a fiberglass stock , always nothing in the chamber of course . I still had a full magazine , always in Grizzly country here .
Wouldn't recommend it , or make a habit of it ! Haven't done it with my wood stock rifles and don't plan on doing it either .
Ralf Martini

Here you got an answer , you can post it on AR with my name on it if you like. It will give everybody a bit more conversation material .
Cheers Ralf


DArcy Echols
echolslegend@comcast.net

Sometimes it is you or the gun. Take your pick. Especially when you are 20 hours from the nearest electrical outlet. This one is even wood. Sorta. :-)

The same rifle in happier more leisurely times. :-)

Cohiba Esplendido or a Siglo VI?

I take VIs with me for daily smokes and an '03 Double Corona for the post kill celebration. Used to be an '01 Pyramide but I'm down to one box of those.

Consider my super macho card revoked for contributing to such a heinous act. Have never bailed out of an airplane that was struck by a missle but have declared 2 in air emergencies and acquitted myself well in them. I'm still here.

My ribbing was in the spirit of good fun. I just think being carried across a stream is pampering of the sort that I don't associate with hunting.

Just because a rifle may be artfully done, it is still a tool. If it is not then you might as well hang it up on the wall to admire and take up golf.
Like most long time guides in Alaska, I have crossed streams thousands of time, often dozens of times in a day, and as Jim said, when you are getting paid to produce a trophy or are more serious about hunting than what you are carrying, you do what you have to.
I never carry a rifle with a round in the chamber unless on the final stalk or after a wounded bear so using the rifle as a walking staff to cross a stream, even one that is chest deep, is not a safety hazard. And as far a slippage is concerned, in 50 years of hunting I have never found a walking stick beside a river with a rubber butt pad on the end.

Over the years I have had a number of the best gun builders ( some who post on here and others who do not) offer rifles for me to test, knowing that I will treat them no different than I do my own. They do this because they want to actually build the best HUNTING rifle that they can, not simply a pretty object that looks like a rifle but is likely to fail in the field.

I am not foolish enough to think a rifle needs to be built as a wading staff, or ice ax, or tent pole or any of the other jobs we Alaskans occasionally use our rifles for, but delicate elegance is a costly and unwise extravagance in the wilderness.

My simple assumption is that the rifle in the picture belongs to the gentleman crossing the river. If that is true then guess what? It's his rifle and he can do any damn thing he wants to with it and it is no one else's business.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Just because a rifle may be artfully done, it is still a tool. If it is not then you might as well hang it up on the wall to admire and take up golf.
Like most long time guides in Alaska, I have crossed streams thousands of time, often dozens of times in a day, and as Jim said, when you are getting paid to produce a trophy or are more serious about hunting than what you are carrying, you do what you have to.
I never carry a rifle with a round in the chamber unless on the final stalk or after a wounded bear so using the rifle as a walking staff to cross a stream, even one that is chest deep, is not a safety hazard. And as far a slippage is concerned, in 50 years of hunting I have never found a walking stick beside a river with a rubber butt pad on the end.

Over the years I have had a number of the best gun builders ( some who post on here and others who do not) offer rifles for me to test, knowing that I will treat them no different than I do my own. They do this because they want to actually build the best HUNTING rifle that they can, not simply a pretty object that looks like a rifle but is likely to fail in the field.

I am not foolish enough to think a rifle needs to be built as a wading staff, or ice ax, or tent pole or any of the other jobs we Alaskans occasionally use our rifles for, but delicate elegance is a costly and unwise extravagance in the wilderness.

Great post Phil.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:
Does it imply that folks should think about leaving their finely stocked expensive custom rifles at home when heading to Alaska to hunt in the wilderness areas.

Yes.

quote:

Originally posted by lindy2:

quote:

delicate elegance is a costly and unwise extravagance in the wilderness.

A very prophetic statement. Does it imply that folks should think about leaving their finely stocked expensive custom rifles at home when heading to Alaska to hunt in the wilderness areas.

I think it means people should give some thought to their intended purpose of their rifles. Possibly even before you commission them.

It really gives one cause to wonder. Here is someone hunting in Alaska where there are known streams. He prepares to camp out I suppose since he has a what appears to be full backpack. He also has to know about being in water as he is also wearing hip boots or appears to be. Wouldn't you think someone this well prepared would have at the least a folding walking staff on the frame of his pack so as not to have to use his rifle. My son in law is a diesel mechanic and has been for many many years and I can assure you he is as careful of the condition of his tools as I am about the condition of my rifle while hunting. I have never seen a really competant craftsman who was not. I have really never seen a PH who really abused his rifles. There probably are some but I would really not like to hunt with them. I treasure my rifles and treat them in the field as I do in my home - with extreme care.

I can't take it anymore, I have to say my peace. I can not, for the life of me, understand why there is so much concern for what one man does with his own rifle, especially in a situation where he is not endangering the life of someone else, and quite probably helping to save his. Get over yourselves, it's not your rifle! It's Phil's!

Now, I have never hunted with Phil, but I do know his reputation as a guide, and it is STELLAR! I would question if there is anyone alive who has the experience in Alaska that he has, or if there is anyone who has been in on the killing of more Brown bears than he has. And yet a team of armchair QB's has found it to be their place to question one of the most experienced/talented guides and outdoor writers of our time.

Un-Fing Believable.

I hope that you all are putting as much effort into the conduct of your own lives as you are at questioning how someone else conducts theirs, but I doubt it.

There, I've said it. Feel much better now. Think I'll have a drink.

Lance S. Hopper

I know one guy who admitted to urinating on his rifle to thaw the mechanism to take a shot (expect some damage to the bluing). I knew another guy who left his rifle leaned up against the fence in the corral for days at a time- rain and shine- because that was where he was likely to have to take the shot.
Sticking the butt of a glass stock in the water for a few seconds is pretty small potatoes. Regards, Bill.

Duane,

Never been accused of being sensitive before, Thanks. I'll have to show this to my wife the next time I get accused of being otherwise. Only referenced your name because of your skill and the quality of your builds.

Bill,

Exactly the point I was trying to get across.

...on the 2nd page of posts - for this.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
I never carry a rifle with a round in the chamber unless on the final stalk or after a wounded bear

Most interesting that a man who hunts for a living, confidently walks around with an empty-chamber most the time,
yet some rec. hunters feel its imperative that they be 'locked & loaded' from the moment they leave the vehicle..

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Just because a rifle may be artfully done, it is still a tool.

Those who don't think its primarily a tool,
likely would also consider using a knife as a fork,as uncouth...

Interesting use of a firearm having hunted for close to 50 years also. Spent a lot of time in and on rivers and marshes.

Never had to use a rifle or shotgun that way but if I was in danger of downing, falling where one would get seriously hurt or shoving the rifle in I guess the rifle would go.

A good stout walking staff as saved my butt many of times.

One does what one needs to do

Being one of the ones who never leaves the truck without a round chambered, I can see how others might see this as a good use of the rifle. Too me the rifle ,unloaded, doesn't even make a good club. Nothing to grab to swing. Barrel is too small. So I suppose a walking stick is a good alternate use. I'm not very macho as has been stated on here so my methods are automatically suspect but I rarely have,in fact NEVER, hunted in Alaska and never really wanted to. It looks like a totally unpleasant place to hunt not friendly like the Zimbabwe bush.

Thanks Lance, Just last week I was wondering how you were doing? As you well know, there are a lot more folks talking the talk than there are who can walk the walk.

They remind me of the knuckle head Chris McCandless who was written about in the book Into The Wild. He refused to listen to anyone about Alaska as he already had it figured out. He ended up starving to death because he couldn't cross a small stream after a rain, even when there were places easy to cross 1/2 mile either direction from where he tried. He was probably afraid to get his rifle wet Some folks are better off traveling on pavement with bridges to cross creeks.