THE ACCURATERELOADING.COM CUSTOM RIFLE FORUM

Accuratereloading.com    The Accurate Reloading Forums    THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS  Hop To Forum Categories  Rifles  Hop To Forums  Custom Built Rifles    Looking an unfired, untested custom... would you???
Page 1 2 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Looking an unfired, untested custom... would you???
 Login/Join
 
one of us
Picture of FMC
posted Hide Post
Nope.

This:

quote:

All you gotta do to test fire is to get acquainted with the blister end of a post hole digger. There is always a range somewhere within reason for sighting in. And...not EVERY firearm that comes thru a shop HAS to be sighted in, but in my opinion, they must be test fired.


And this:

quote:
I simply cannot imagine letting a custom rifle out of my shop without having test fired it and proven its accuracy potential and live fire function. I know there are guys that do, but that has always mystified me??? I make allowances for the time and ammo spent in the price of the gun.
There are just too many variables, it isn't professional in my opinion??


I wouldn't touch a rifle that hasn't been test fired.


 
Posts: 1268 | Location: Texas | Registered: 26 July 2004Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
This is from American National Standard Voluntary Industry Performance Standards for Pressure and Velocity of Centerfire Rifle Ammunition for the Use of Commercial Manufacturers (2015):

"The following specifications define the proof loads based on tests fired in standard test barrels with
the ammunition at a temperature of 60°-80°F (15.6°-26.7°C). Tests shall be in accordance with the
procedures and equipment shown in Sections II and III of this Standard.
Pressure values are given on the following pages in terms of minimum and maximum averages and
extreme variations for 10-round tests in standard test barrels.
The Standard Deviations for Definitive Proof Cartridges are derived from the Standard Deviations
for service loads. A multiplication factor of 1.25 is used to obtain Definitive Proof Load Standard Deviations from Service Load Standard Deviations.

The Standard Deviations for Definitive Proof Cartridges are derived from the Standard Deviations
for service loads. A multiplication factor of 1.25 is used to obtain Definitive Proof Load Standard
Deviations from Service Load Standard Deviations.
The minimum and maximum average Definitive Proof Pressures are computed as follows:
 The Minimum Average Definitive Proof Pressure is calculated by multiplying the
Maximum Probable Lot Mean (MPLM) service pressure by a factor of 1.3 (i.e.,
130%) and rounding UP to the nearest multiple of 500 psi.
 The Maximum Average Definitive Proof Pressure is calculated by multiplying the
Maximum Probable Lot Mean (MPLM) service pressure by a factor of 1.4 (i.e.,
140%) and rounding DOWN to the nearest multiple of 500 psi.
 The Proof Maximum Extreme Variation (EV) is calculated by multiplying the Proof
Standard Deviation (which in the case of Centerfire Rifle is equal to the Service
Standard Deviation multiplied by 1.25) by the constant 5.16(14)) and rounding UP to
the next 100 psi.
 The Minimum Proof Individual (MPI) pressure is positioned three standard deviations
(proof) below the Minimum Average Definitive Proof Pressure, with the calculated
value being rounded DOWN to the next multiple of 100 psi.
Example (using transducer data):
Cartridge: 22 Hornet MPLM Pressure = 50,200 psi SERVICE = 1,960 psi
1. Definitive Proof Load Standard Deviation (PROOF) =
Service Load Standard Deviation (SERVICE) x 1.25
i.e.: 1,960 psi x 1.25 = 2,450 psi
2. Min. Avg. Proof Pressure = Maximum Probable Lot Mean Pressure x 1.30
i.e.: 50,200 psi x 1.30 = 65,260 psi rounded up to nearest 500 psi = 65,500 psi
3. Max. Avg Proof Pressure = Maximum Probable Lot Mean Pressure x 1.40
i.e.; 50,200 psi x 1.40 = 70,280 psi rounded down to nearest 500 psi = 70,000 psi
4. Max. Proof E.V. = Proof Standard Deviation ( (PROOF)) x 5.16
i.e.: 2,450 psi x 5.16 = 12,642 psi rounded up to next 100 psi = 12,700 psi.
5. Minimum Proof Individual = Min. Avg. Proof Pressure – (3 x  (PROOF))
i.e., 65,500 psi – (3 x 2,450 psi) = 58,150 psi rounded down to next 100 psi = 58,100 ps"



I always defer such matters to the Gunsmith! Big Grin



quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
25-30 % seems higher than I've been told..but…like to know where this information came from..or..rather where Wiki got it from. I've experience with only two European (France) proof's..both rifles I built.

Near as I can calculate, the proof pressures were about 10% higher than advertised pressures.

The 7x61 S&H was well known as a real "hot rod". I've seen sources that mention above 70,000 PSI. Personally saw two FNs set back with this cartridge. Sooo...my point is I you take a 60K ctg and bump it up 25% result...75K!


I'd think that would not be a "proof" as much as a destruction.

Thoughts?
 
Posts: 3059 | Location: NW Arkansas | Registered: 19 December 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by butchlambert:
quote:
Originally posted by DavidReed:
If I'm ordering a custom rifle or buying one that a gunmaker is selling on spec., there's no way in hell my money would touch a rifle that the gunmaker hadn't test fired; ideally at multiple stages through the build process. If the maker is resistant to that then they aren't my builder.


Tests during multiple stages of the build?


Yes. Why shouldn't that be expected and done. Like when the rifle is screwed together and bedded into its stock but but still far from finished. Or as the Brits say, "shooting it in the white." That seems like a logical time/place in the construction process to shake a rifle out with some range time. If I were a gunmaker it seems like a good investment of time to affirm all is well or discover any issues or problems that need corrective action before the investment of final finishing. What if that barrel maker that never lets a bad one out of the shop finally does, or that unbreakable spring breaks give way, or the something didn't get screwed down like it was thought to be, or there is a true material defect waiting to happen, etc... After final finishing and assembly seems like another good time to shoot the gun too.

Look, In my day job I have to bring a no stone unturned approach to everything I get involved in and I appreciate that approach when I recognize it in other professionals as well. It's not free but certainly prevents unforeseen problems after a project is in the books.
 
Posts: 1032 | Location: Golden, CO | Registered: 05 April 2001Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of gunmaker
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by DavidReed:

If I were a gunmaker it seems like a good investment of time .....


I always test fire every project after cutting a chamber.

But.... It's not the gunmaker that's making the investment. My clients are happy to pay for the time & materials it takes to do it right the first time. I'm happy to have them as clients.


gunmaker
------------------
James Anderson Metalsmith & Stockmaker
WEB SITE
 
Posts: 1493 | Location: Western South Dakota | Registered: 05 January 2005Reply With Quote
Moderator
Picture of jeffeosso
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
No such thing as "Normal in the US" And.."Normal" would suggest "required" Neither is true.

All you gotta do is look over Doulas Barrel website. They specifically exclude all those things you describe as "normal" They only test fire...with proof loads if available, otherwise with factory ammo..Other barrel makers...well...they kinda of don't mention feeding, ect.

"Optional" would be a true staement


uhm, i think either i totally failed to say what i meant, or you didn't read it right.. either way, it's kinda my fault.

as you state, from Douglas, they only test fire - that's were i said testing for function (the gun doesn't blow up under standard loads)

I also state the CIP/EU (not US) has different requirements -

we might be talking past each other.

on saami/cip/ansi
SAAMI is VOLUNTARY and membership is not required, and it's regs are only applicable to members - it's an industry, not Govt' or NGO

CIP is REQUIRED under places it holds authority -

ansi is even more voluntary than SAAMI - one could be a saami member and entirely ignore ansi, if they please.


opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club

Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR
Order AR/AccRel Brass
What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR.
476AR,
http://www.weaponsmith.com
 
Posts: 34531 | Location: Conroe, TX | Registered: 01 June 2002Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 8944 | Location: Denver - Go Rockies!! | Registered: 12 February 2004Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
I'm curious..Why didn't he just fire the damn thing?
 
Posts: 2131 | Location: Phone: (253) 535-0066 / (253) 230-5599, Address: PO Box 822 Spanaway WA 98387 | www.customgunandrifle.com | Registered: 16 April 2013Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
I am curious as to whether or not the OP purchased it! And if it worked when he fired it. Big Grin
 
Posts: 3059 | Location: NW Arkansas | Registered: 19 December 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Come out of quarantine and read 2 posts up Big Grin
 
Posts: 577 | Location: Wyoming | Registered: 04 April 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Ha! Alcohol does have side effects!
 
Posts: 3059 | Location: NW Arkansas | Registered: 19 December 2006Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 8944 | Location: Denver - Go Rockies!! | Registered: 12 February 2004Reply With Quote
one of us
Picture of eagle27
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Duane Wiebe (CG&R):
25-30 % seems higher than I've been told..but…like to know where this information came from..or..rather where Wiki got it from. I've experience with only two European (France) proof's..both rifles I built.

Near as I can calculate, the proof pressures were about 10% higher than advertised pressures.

The 7x61 S&H was well known as a real "hot rod". I've seen sources that mention above 70,000 PSI. Personally saw two FNs set back with this cartridge. Sooo...my point is I you take a 60K ctg and bump it up 25% result...75K!


I'd think that would not be a "proof" as much as a destruction.

Thoughts?


FWIW
I have owned a couple of Schultz and Larsen rifles in 7x61 S&H and did read somewhere where this rear locking action had been tested to 120,000 PSI with no adverse effects. It was not clear whether this testing was proofing or just an advertising ploy to prove how good the S&L rifle really was. They were an exceptional rifle accuracy and velocity wise, the original factory 160 gr SPBT gave close to the advertised 3,100 fps in my M60 model with the 26" barrel and I handloaded the Sierra 160gr SPBT to an honest 3,000 fps. The perception of "hot rod" may have come from the very flattened primers of the Norma factory ammo and early incipient case head separation if handloading. This may have been to do with generous headspacing of the belted cartridge and shoulder setback if carelessly FL resizing when handloading. I only partially resized to give a snug headspace on the shoulder, got good case life and never experienced any hard extraction with factory or handloaded ammo when loading to the high velocity levels.

Fired Norma factory ammo 7x61S&H case
 
Posts: 2835 | Location: Nelson, New Zealand | Registered: 03 August 2009Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:
Case in point; chambered a Lee Speed Enfield for 375 2.5 inch yesterday, and took it to the range today. Fired and extracted well; but no way will I test it for accuracy.
And as I said, I choose my clients with the same care that a client should choose his craftsman. Neither should do business with the other if they don't feel comfortable.


I've only had one rebarrel by dpcd, small sample size, but from the way that one shoots I know where I'll send any future work, without hesitation.
 
Posts: 2948 | Location: Tennessee | Registered: 09 December 2007Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 8944 | Location: Denver - Go Rockies!! | Registered: 12 February 2004Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by dogcat:
I passed on this rifle but did end up ordering two new ones from builders that test fire and prove the accuracy of their work. I am not asking for much, just verification that they shoot as well as they look. At the end of it all, an inaccurate gun, no matter the cost, is worthless.


Yessir.
We've all heard "only accurate rifles are interesting".
Zeke
 
Posts: 1350 | Registered: 27 October 2011Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
I test fire every gun that leaves my casa, new or used, and I guarantee its accuracy whatever that may be..but bottom line is its just easier to refund the client and keep everyone happy, fix the returned gun or whatever and resell it, but Im not in the business, so the monitary aspect isn't a particular problem..Thats the nice thing about it being a hobby..

Keep in mind that AR has no guarantee policy so you accept that and your on your own..but Ive never had to refund a AR sold gun that I recall. Mostly I can fix most any gun that doesn't meet my standards, so that's a plus.


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 36253 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
Depends on who you talk to reference "test loads"....We only deal with max loading as individuals, or we fill a case with Bullseye put the gun in in a tire, tie a string on the trigger and get go to the other side of the shop and pull the string..

What Have I learned from this? A jap Arasaka is indestructible, a Mauser puff up like blow fish, a pre 64 Win fractures like a handgrande..but it takes a lot of powder to blow most of them up...Not all that scientific but its fun!! tu2


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 36253 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
one of us
posted Hide Post
 
Posts: 8944 | Location: Denver - Go Rockies!! | Registered: 12 February 2004Reply With Quote
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2  
 

Accuratereloading.com    The Accurate Reloading Forums    THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS  Hop To Forum Categories  Rifles  Hop To Forums  Custom Built Rifles    Looking an unfired, untested custom... would you???

Copyright December 1997-2020 Accuratereloading.com


Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia