The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Custom Built Rifles Looking an unfired, untested custom... would you???Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
Looking at an unfired and untested 9.3x62 that looks superb. The builder is well known here. It is being sold by the builder. I have asked why he has not test fired, he suggested he has done so many that he knows this one is accurate and will function as advertised. It is built on a pre-64 and has a Shilen barrel. Would this bother you? Or am I being overly cautious.... | ||
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You are not being overly cautious, in fact I would be suspect of any builder that does not test his product. | |||
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I would ask if he guaranteed the rifle to function and shoot to an agreed upon standard of accuracy. With a money back guarantee if it didn't. Anyone who claims the 30-06 is ineffective has either not tried one, or is unwittingly commenting on their own marksmanship Phil Shoemaker Alaska Master guide FAA Master pilot NRA Benefactor www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com | |||
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I never test fire anything; don't need to. I know how they will perform. I no longer use the S word barrels though......Not that there is anything wrong with them. I only know, in advance, how Douglas barrels will perform. But, if you are not comfortable with a product, or the builder, do not buy it. Simple. | |||
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This. -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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If it was me, I would offer a 100% Satisfaction guarantee I know it will perform as stated Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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GASP! I admire your confidence, but is there some reason you don't remove ALL doubt and just go ahead and test fire? I had a lesson that would have really pissed off the client. I test fired a M-70 375, then couldn't open the bolt......the pin for the bolt sleeve lock moved forward upon recoil! Easy fix, but wouldn't have showed up unless I shot it | |||
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Actually, I can't understand a builder that doesn't want to shoot his build. I'm a firm believer in shooting all my builds, not because I doubt in the rifles I build but because a believe the client deserves a fully vetted rifle that is delivered sighted in be it open irons, optics or both. At these price points it's the right thing to do. I'm so blessed with my shop and my range here on our property, shooting each build is no big deal, I just go do it and that's that. | |||
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I do guarantee that they will perform as promised, and they always do. I build that in with good craftsmanship; not put the QA in at the end. It's too late then. | |||
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Nothing against a builder that doesn't test fire every build, I know many don't have the luxury of being able to shoot right out of their shop door like I can here. It just makes me sleep much better at night knowing that every gun is shooting and functioning perfectly before shipping and it's nice that it's sighted in for the customer's load. I've met many builders who don't who are known for building great shooting guns. | |||
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For you great smiths that put in so many hours on a project I think it would be icing on the cake to see how the rifle performs, but that's just me. I also recognize that everyone does not have test facilities readily available and it does take time. | |||
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If I'm ordering a custom rifle or buying one that a gunmaker is selling on spec., there's no way in hell my money would touch a rifle that the gunmaker hadn't test fired; ideally at multiple stages through the build process. If the maker is resistant to that then they aren't my builder. | |||
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Tests during multiple stages of the build? | |||
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If it’s built by a reputable gunsmith, with a high quality barrel, it buy it. If the accuracy is not up to par, the “reputable” gunsmith will work with you to resolve the issue. And sometimes an accuracy is related to the person pulling the trigger. But that wouldn’t be any of us NRA Patron member | |||
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First I'd like someone to define "test fired". Every 'smith I know will fire a rifle into a trap or at a range to test that the damn thing fires, extracts, and ejects. I don't know of anyone that sits down at a bench and begins shooting groups and developing loads, etc. before selling a "new" rifle. I would say that at that point it isn't a new rifle anymore. If a customer would ask me to do that I would but otherwise it's nothing more than a function test and that's it. "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". | |||
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I simply cannot imagine letting a custom rifle out of my shop without having test fired it and proven its accuracy potential and live fire function. I know there are guys that do, but that has always mystified me??? I make allowances for the time and ammo spent in the price of the gun. There are just too many variables, it isn't professional in my opinion?? ACGG Life Member, since 1985 | |||
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I have no way to know the capability of the new owner or if he even knows how to shoot; I would never guarantee accuracy, which is what is wanted here. All of them shoot .5 moa, for me, and usually, the client. But what if he just can't load or shoot; he will be mad if it doesn't shoot what I did, when the problem is, the new owner. Of course I make sure they feed and extract. Again, simple; do not buy from someone whom you do not trust. I always interview all my clients and get to know them, for the same reason. Ones that seem like they have problems with any transaction, are also treated respectfully. | |||
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I always test because strange things happen. Example: last year a build a lightweight 6.5 Creedmoor for a close friend. Like others, I primarily use Douglas Premium XX barrels almost exclusively, and this rifle had one. I was certain it would shoot tiny groups but I believe in “trust but verify”. Well, this rifle shot terrible, vertical stringing shots straight up with three-shot groups spanning close to 9” at 200-yards. My son shot the first group and we were surprised. After cooling period I shot an identical group. I replaced the barrel with one from Brux and it now shoots sub-MOA. No, I believe testing is worth a little effort. John Farner If you haven't, please join the NRA! | |||
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After the gun has been shot and I kept a target it simply does not matter if the client can't shoot. If if don't have a target I have no ground to stand on. I normally email a scan of a representative target to the client. In my opinion, it is simply unprofessional to not test fire for accuracy and especially live fire function. A trip to the range is part of every custom project. I normally shoot a rifle in the pattern stock, then again just before I do the finish work and lastly when the project is completed. I build mainly single shot rifles and still consider this mandatory. I've always done it this way~~ ACGG Life Member, since 1985 | |||
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Someone plays with their "ZIZ" wheel. NRA Patron Life Member Benefactor Level | |||
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Considering the cost PITA of shipping a firearm back and forth. I would hope that a smith would make sure at least it feeds and goes bang. A wildcat might not be depending on ammo availability but any common calibers should be. Remington proofs their arms but do not test fire anymore and we know where that leads. | |||
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I see the emphasis shifting here a bit! Test firing CAN include accuracy testing. but the primary reason to test fire is just simple proof that the firearm is safe to shoot. A fired case gives a lot more information than experience, trust, and tea leaves can ever give. | |||
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Google his name for negatives like "problems", etc. Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can. | |||
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Your not overly cautious but... I am a firm believer that all custom built firearms should be test fired for function. Maybe for accuracy as well but, as many have said here, accuracy varies from person to person. However, problems do arise and it seems that a general accuracy test should probably be done too. Perhaps an accuracy group of x inches allowed using factory ammo would suffice. It happens but, test firing brings to light most of these issues before shipping so they can be fixed before the client finds the problem. I have had custom builds where safeties and triggers did not work properly and some have had ejection issues. Every builder has taken care of my issues promptly. Some have even stood behind their product and have taken care of issues when they were purchased as a "used" firearm by me. Would I use them to build a custom rifle? You bet I would. In your case, since the builder is close and he is selling it, I would just ask him if he would fix any issues related to functioning (feeding, ejection, safety, trigger, floorplate release etc.) and abnormal (will not group less than 1 1/2 inches or whatever size you insist upon) accuracy problems. If he is a reputable builder, says yes, and it is within your price range then why not purchase it? | |||
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From Squeezeenhope:
Time is money. Some other considerations: If you have the ability to test fire in your shop you can check functioning, but you will need to get to the range for accuracy. At the range what ammo do you use? 223 - no problem. 338-06 - ??? Do you want to trust someone reloads for safety and accuracy? | |||
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Pdog Shooter, can you explain this? I thought proofing was test firing proof (110%) loads through the gun. What is Remington doing? At Trinidad they told us to always test fire a newly-chambered barrel to make sure nothing broke. Normally they used a fixture (taking barreled action out of the stock). But one year a student had mis-cut the angle on a coned breech that apparently looked ok since it wouldn't take the no-go gauge. Instructor was hand-firing into the snail due to time constraint and blew splinters out of the stock into his arm. They also told us the famous story of the $$$$ Holland and Holland that was delivered and the customer returned it because it was incapable of firing. On the other hand, finding a place to test fire is getting harder and more logistically complicated. I'd prefer to know the gun was test-fired (vs accuracy tested), but I'd also trust DPCD or any of the other reputable smiths on AR to make it right if something didn't work. | |||
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Jerry Fisher told me a story while he worked a Apex as a young man: An FN 300 action was rebarreled (he doesn't remember the caliber) They had a fixture to hold the barreled action...short version: The action let go, sending shrapnel all over the place..No injuries...Now...how you gonna "make things right" if I hadn't been test fired? | |||
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Case in point; chambered a Lee Speed Enfield for 375 2.5 inch yesterday, and took it to the range today. Fired and extracted well; but no way will I test it for accuracy. And as I said, I choose my clients with the same care that a client should choose his craftsman. Neither should do business with the other if they don't feel comfortable. | |||
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Every gun I have barreled, rebarreled, or rechambered I have test fired for safety and function. I then take a vibrating engraver and engrave customer name, ticket number and date on the fired cases (3). It is then recorded in my files for reference. If some knot head gets mud in the bore or handloads something stupid and causes damage to the gun or persons around it I will have proof that the gun left my shop in good safe working order. Even your own brother if he blows a finger off or looses an eye or heaven forbid a life he will sue you for everything you have. On that subject, I test fire every thing I have worked on. There are a few who will bring a gun in with a malfunction not related to the work to be performed. For example bring one to be reblued when it does not feed correctly. If you test fire before work is done you will catch it..........and I have. Bottom line I test every gun that leaves my shop for my own protection. Craftsman | |||
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Guy Malmborg taught me to test fire and keep one of the fired shell casings. That bit of knowledge came in handy when a rifle I built started blowing primers when the owner took it to the range. Turned out to be a bad batch of Federal ammo but having a fired factory casing to show that it functioned as expected was comforting to say the least.  Aut vincere aut mori | |||
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The last Remington armorers I went to they factory armorer trainer. Told us that they only proof tested there firearms and did not test them for function and or accuracy. | |||
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I am unaware that any major maker uses proof loads in the US - i could be wrong, but as this isn't a legal requirement here.... proofing the action is a heavy load, required by CIP, country, and EU law(s) test firing for FUNCTION, using factory loads, is normal, in the US accuracy claims (it's technically precision, but why split frog hair) showing grouping is not longer a norm, again, in the US. functional testing, sure.. precision (that's the SIZE of the group) and Accuracy (that's the placement of the group against sights and shooter/jig) hasn't be done here, in a long while.. and frankly, would take more time than assembly in a commercial setting, ... target setup, ammo/loading, fixturing, sightin, firing, collection of datum, documentation, minimal cleaning, repacking .... this is common in bespoke (read craftman's work) and not done in continuous production situations now, back to the point, i would be kinda "meh" if i trusted the 'smith -- i'd ask for a money back clause for gross dysfunction, and a "you fix it" if it shoots greater than N MOA opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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No such thing as "Normal in the US" And.."Normal" would suggest "required" Neither is true. All you gotta do is look over Doulas Barrel website. They specifically exclude all those things you describe as "normal" They only test fire...with proof loads if available, otherwise with factory ammo..Other barrel makers...well...they kinda of don't mention feeding, ect. "Optional" would be a true staement | |||
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[/QUOTE] Pdog Shooter, can you explain this? I thought proofing was test firing proof (110%) loads through the gun. What is Remington doing? [/QUOTE] I would question how you would test a 110% load. I don't shoot dangerous loads (I use 46.5 grains varget with a 155 bullet in a .308) but I sure as hell wouldn't want to shoot a load of 51.15 in this cartridge. It would blow the brass all to hell and lock up the action. So if a fella wanted to Proof a barrelled action just how would you go about it without wrecking something? "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". | |||
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Working up proof loads is not for the reloader, even advanced reloader..This is the bailiwick of instrumentation not found outside a pretty fancy laboratory. About the best one can normally do is to use factory ammo with the heaviest bullet available....or submit it to European proof house. | |||
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Per Wikipedia(not sure if this applies in USA): The standard proof test consist of firing two overloaded cartridges that produce 25% more chamber pressure than the C.I.P. specified maximum pressure limit for the same cartridge in its commercial version. The standard proof of pistol, revolver and rimfire cartridges is performed with overloaded cartridges that produce 30% more chamber pressure than the C.I.P maximum pressure limit for the same cartridge in its commercial version. There are only two overloaded firings to avoid excessive stress to the arm, especially the barrel which is the main part suffering this overload beside the chamber (when not part of the barrel) and the locking mechanism. After the test, the arm is disassembled by the proof house technicians for nondestructive testing looking for magnetic flux leakage through fluoroscopic lamp in a dark room. Many manufacturers package the casings from a firearm's proof ammunition in a sealed envelope accompanying the firearm so that authorities in C.I.P.-signatory states and civilian purchasers in other countries can conduct an independent examination if they desire.[14] | |||
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Agree 100%. Proofing in this manner isn't for me. "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading". | |||
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25-30 % seems higher than I've been told..but…like to know where this information came from..or..rather where Wiki got it from. I've experience with only two European (France) proof's..both rifles I built. Near as I can calculate, the proof pressures were about 10% higher than advertised pressures. The 7x61 S&H was well known as a real "hot rod". I've seen sources that mention above 70,000 PSI. Personally saw two FNs set back with this cartridge. Sooo...my point is I you take a 60K ctg and bump it up 25% result...75K! I'd think that would not be a "proof" as much as a destruction. Thoughts? | |||
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Duane, I thought 10% also. So I looked up the London Proof House's website, and it says depending on type of firearm, 25% to 50% above commercial standard. Didn't see a breakdown of which types for which %age overload, but good grief! https://www.gunmakers.org.uk/the-proof-house/ | |||
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